A simple solution to Planking & Air Camping

[Luigi player]

Food might help against extreme camping... but other than against camping it could mess up games. Like, you're Snake and you could kill your opponent with an utilt, but then he gets some food and then he doesn't die and still wins or something. >_>

I don't know what the problem with air camping is anyway... every character can do something against it.

 

[smashmachine]

lol

food won't help with air camping

and having MK lose when the timer runs out is ********, as every1 will run away the whole time

honestly i think the best idea is to remove the timer

i seriously doubt any matches will go over 8 minutes without it

 

[PK-ow!]

and having MK lose when the timer runs out is ********, as every1 will run away the whole time

honestly i think the best idea is to remove the timer

i seriously doubt any matches will go over 8 minutes without it

Except how they will, 'cause people, similarly, won't fight each other.


How would adding food affect other characters, other than items screwing up A?

I mean, does D3's Toss make food?

And I forget... will this mean GaW actually makes food with a 7? Does he do that with items off? I haven't landed a 7 yet. >_<

I'd say Planking isn't a proven problem, but I'd also say it might be because people, in their heads, have soft-banned it. That or MKs aren't doing everything they can to win.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I mean, let custom stages be allowed for counterpicks.

And there could be a dropping block near the edge of the stage, so characters with only tether recoveries can hop onto that, or add a spring to make it fair for the tether recovery characters.

Also, disable the timer if you don't want as much planking. You have to make some sacrifices if you want to get rid of planking. Or make the character able to edge hog 30 times at most, if he edgehogs 31 times, he should lose the match.

 

[Rajam]

G&W can make food from a 7 with items off and none

Mmm i see you are right (i'm speaking to the guys who said that making MK lose if the timer runs out is stupid), most guys will just pick the larger stage possible and run away the whole time

Taking the timer out has 2 problems from what i can realize:
1. Wario won't know when the fart is ready to use, or when is the best time to use it. This can easily be solved by putting a timer above the tv screen or something like that. If anyone needs the time displayed, it can be displayed with an external device
2. For the second problem i'll take an example: ok lets suppose MK starts to plank. The other character (let's suppose a Falco) would think "I don't have to approach, there is no time anyways; i'll wait until the MK gets bored and stop the planking", but the MK can think the same too "Let's plank until the Falco gets bored and comes here". At some point any of them will have to approach the other, the thing is, how long can that take? Pacient players can make the game the hell of boredom wasting time forever

The rule which counts the number of times in which the planker grabbed the edge can be somehow abused too. Let's suppose 1 or 2 minutes remain in the match. Both players have been playing very defensive, though neither of them has used planking. Suddenly, the one with a stock or % lead (an MK would be the common case) decides to plank. Badly. The thing is, the MK would win because the timer runs out, and the edge-grabbing count wouldn't violate any rule, because the planker planked 2 minutes at most

As a final word, i think a judge is the best solution. Some players may be known because they plank, so calling a judge to prevent planking would be the right option. It's kind of hard to know when a player has planked or not, and the criteria of a judge can solve these difficult issues

 

[Kinzer]

honestly i think the best idea is to remove the timer

i seriously doubt any matches will go over 8 minutes without it

Oh Heavens that's the worst idea anybody could suggest to improve competitive Brawl.

The timer isn't there just to be there, it's to keep the tourney in-check and to make sure it doesn't go much later than it needs to be.

As in people won't be stuck in the first round when it's 3 A.M.

 

[Red Arremer]

I still see no problem with Planking yet.
Has it extremely dominated in tournament?
Is it the only possible choice a player can make in order to win?

No to both. So there's no reason to ban it pre-emptively. Once you've scrubbed all the floors in Hyrule someone wins simply by planking through the whole tournament, then we can talk about mercy banning Planking.
For now, there's simply no indicator that it's banworthy.

 

[Kitamerby]

I still see no problem with Planking yet.
Has it extremely dominated in tournament?
Is it the only possible choice a player can make in order to win?

No to both. So there's no reason to ban it pre-emptively. Once you've scrubbed all the floors in Hyrule someone wins simply by planking through the whole tournament, then we can talk about mercy banning Planking.
For now, there's simply no indicator that it's banworthy.

There will never be definite proof to ban planking, most likely.

If we ever ban it, it's gonna be because we just plain don't like it.

 

[Sinz]

Sounds like spadefox has a good reason guys.

 

[Red Arremer]

There will never be definite proof to ban planking, most likely.

If we ever ban it, it's gonna be because we just plain don't like it.

If I see someone winning a big tournament and beating top players merely by planking, I'm all for banning it.

 

[CaliburChamp]

G&W can make food from a 7 with items off and none

Mmm i see you are right (i'm speaking to the guys who said that making MK lose if the timer runs out is stupid), most guys will just pick the larger stage possible and run away the whole time

Taking the timer out has 2 problems from what i can realize:
1. Wario won't know when the fart is ready to use, or when is the best time to use it. This can easily be solved by putting a timer above the tv screen or something like that. If anyone needs the time displayed, it can be displayed with an external device
2. For the second problem i'll take an example: ok lets suppose MK starts to plank. The other character (let's suppose a Falco) would think "I don't have to approach, there is no time anyways; i'll wait until the MK gets bored and stop the planking", but the MK can think the same too "Let's plank until the Falco gets bored and comes here". At some point any of them will have to approach the other, the thing is, how long can that take? Pacient players can make the game the hell of boredom wasting time forever

The rule which counts the number of times in which the planker grabbed the edge can be somehow abused too. Let's suppose 1 or 2 minutes remain in the match. Both players have been playing very defensive, though neither of them has used planking. Suddenly, the one with a stock or % lead (an MK would be the common case) decides to plank. Badly. The thing is, the MK would win because the timer runs out, and the edge-grabbing count wouldn't violate any rule, because the planker planked 2 minutes at most

As a final word, i think a judge is the best solution. Some players may be known because they plank, so calling a judge to prevent planking would be the right option. It's kind of hard to know when a player has planked or not, and the criteria of a judge can solve these difficult issues

2 min would be considered too much planking and would not go beyond the limit, unless we limit edgehogs to 20 at most. Let's say a character edge hogs every 5 seconds. That means within a minute, that character would of edgehogged 12 times. With 20 limited edgehogs, a character can edgehog for up to 1:30 seconds. That seems about right to me. Any higher seems too much.

60 seconds / 5 edgehogs = 12 edgehogs a minute.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Whoever said MK loses if the timer runs out wasn't thinking when they said that.

That frickin encourages planking.

 

[Uffe]

Here's a thought, if it hasn't been brought up already. Use projectile. Air camping leaves you open and if you decide to air dodge, you won't be using any multi-jumps until you're out of that animation unless you jumped and dodged at the same time or soon after. Let's see who can deal with this.

Peach - Turnips
Diddy Kong - Bananas
Yoshi - Egg Throw
Link/Toon Link - Bombs and Boomerang
Zelda - Din's Fire
Samus/Zero Suit Samus - Homing Missiles, Zair/Plasma Whip (for anti-aerial)
Pit - Palutena Arrows
R.O.B. - Laser, possibly Gyro
Olimar - Pikmin rope or whatever it's called
Fox/Falco/Wolf - Blasters, maybe
Pikachu - Thunder, though it'd leave him open
Ivysaur - Vine Whip, Bullet Seed (Another anti-aerial)
Ness/Lucas - PK Thunder, PK Flash
Mr. Game & Watch - Frying Pan
Snake - Mortal, Nikita

 

[Red Arremer]

Wario could also destroy his bike and use the wheels.

 

[DZhou]

Interesting idea, I like it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I like the idea, but then I think of all the times I will be interrupted by picking up food. 'Eff that.

 

[DanGR]

Here's a thought, if it hasn't been brought up already. Use projectile. Air camping leaves you open and if you decide to air dodge, you won't be using any multi-jumps until you're out of that animation unless you jumped and dodged at the same time or soon after. Let's see who can deal with this.

[list of projectiles]

Good air camping/planking will get past all of this... well, at least good air camping with Wario and MK will.

 

[altairian]

I don't understand why we're trying to nerf valid tactics? (yes, I understand the concept of planking to run out the timer with a lead, but that's stalling which is banned in all forms and thus not a part of this discussion)

Show me the video of the player that wins a tournament of any significance by only planking/air camping.

You can't fix something that isn't a problem.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I had this same idea several months back. I never really followed up on bringing it up because the Smash Community can be extremely resistant to more liberal changes (with the exception of banning MK, which is a dumb notion). It's the same reason why so many regions have such conservative stage lists.

There aren't many issues with food on, however. In fact, it brings out the most on stages like SV and YI. I would very easily support the use of Food on very low in a match. Planking and Air Camping arent really huge issues at all, in my eyes, and certainly not enough to warrant a rule against them, but a change towards simply Food items would make these less of a complained about topic while having other benefits.

I support food in tournaments. Even I get a little hungry during the match!

edit: One little note. This does affect King Dedede's side B, somewhat, if I remember right. Doesn't affect it too much, though?

 

[Luigi player]

Good air camping/planking will get past all of this... well, at least good air camping with Wario and MK will.

No, MK is too slow in the air.

Wario might be able to avoid a few but he has to land sooner or later which is predictable...


PKThunder is way too good against MKs aircamping... (PKT is very maneuverable and faster than MKs airspeed, airdoding also won't help since he'd get tailwhipped, he also can't attack it to stop it with any attack other than his glide attack)
And Zamus upB/usmash is probably also good against it. And most other projectiles. Please show me a good player using them against an aircamper and not being able to hit him, lol.

GaW can also uair MK up until he has no jumps left (if he keeps staying high in the air) and punish him.

 

[xDD-Master]

For DDD's Side-B. He cant bring out food or something else if only food is set to 'on'. I did about 100 Side-Bs (Not Counting) but it were some Gordos, but I never got food.

Afaik DDD can only shot out capsules if Containers are set to on, which arent with Food on Low.

@Banning blah: This Topic shouldnt be about banning MK, banning planking, etc.

Its how we can avoid banning everything with another simple ruleset change.

Its just the fact, that food on low is much more easier to realize than having a judge in the match or looking about stalling.

The fact that items appear random has also a good side, it prevents camping at the item spots to heal yourself or making Snake more good as he could drop an C4 at the spot.

Like I already said, there should just be people who test this out once as I can tell you it wont affect your normal play.

I tested the diddy peanut gun thing and I can say there comes out a peanut seed (Sometimes 2) if the peanut is beeing attacked, but this only happens every 2nd peanut or so and they only heal 2%, not a big deal.

Wario can eat the food. He can also eat 3 food pieces at once with one bite.

Kirby is able to inhale them, also more than 1, but this only works if he touches the food with his mouth / body.

The same thing goes for DDD.

Yoshi cant eat it with his tongue (B or Grab).

I tried out Gaws Side-B 7 and it never gives out food only the apple like normal.


Btw. the food pick-up animation is only very few frames long, and they dont appear directly on the ground, the come from short above. So there shouldnt be suddenly a food if you want to attack which messes up your attack.



More testings:

On FD I could heal 111% in 8 minutes.

On BF I could heal 115% in 8 minutes.

On SV I could heal ~250% in 8 minutes. (+ Eating the food from the baloon)

On YI I could heal 202% in 8 minutes. (+ Eating the food from the Shy Guys). ~20% food got lost, because they shy guy wasnt about the ground -.-


So would this make SV & YI Counterpick Stages

 

[demonictoonlink]

nope. theyd stay neutral.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm surprised people having come out of the wood works going "OMG NO ITEMS FFFFFFF"

 

[Mota]

To avoid planking... allow non edge hogging stages in play. This can be custom stages, that are fair. This is why I hate starter stages for first round, cause lots of characters can plank there...

Yea, let's play only on stages without ledges.

Lol, Olimar, ZSS and Ivy would be against that.

Custom stages is just fail in competitive play.

 

[Red Arremer]

Lol, Olimar, ZSS and Ivy would be against that.

Custom stages is just fail in competitive play.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[swordgard]

I was being sarcastic.

Its sad that some people did not realize this >.> Seriously, no edge? Im learning d3 lmao.

 

[1048576]

I proposed this idea months ago and got flamed. How come you get such a warm reception?

Anyway yeah its a great idea that will hopefully be implemented on a national scale soon.

 

[Kitamerby]

I proposed this idea months ago and got flamed. How come you get such a warm reception?

Anyway yeah its a great idea that will hopefully be implemented on a national scale soon.

You didn't post any data.

Anyways, the chances of this being accepted on a national scale is very, very slim.

However, it might be given a chance by some TOs, and after that, who knows?

 

[BSP]

food doesn't really sound like a bad idea at all, i d be open to try it.

 

[Yikarur]

Food is a stupid idea against planking.

You don't get a stock back by eating food. So the Planking Char have to kill his opponent 1 time and the "hell" starts again.

 

[xXTACXx]

I don't like the idea very much but I think it would be neat to try every now and them and always have the option open. Like if both players agree to it or something.

 

[blakinola]

If you wanna limit planking:

Pause your tourney match. Get an official/TO and have them watch the remainder of the match.

If it continues, they lose match/set. At least they'll be pressured into...playing?

/2cents

 

[Yikarur]

and what do you aspect the TO to say? "He is planking so I disqulifier him!!! no wait Planking isn't banned"

 

[blakinola]

There's a difference between having 30 seconds left and doing it for the first 5 minutes of the match. It's at the discretion of the TO. And the majority of them have the common sense to determine what qualifies as planking/stalling/whatever.

 

[Tien2500]

Food is a stupid idea against planking.

You don't get a stock back by eating food. So the Planking Char have to kill his opponent 1 time and the "hell" starts again.

Yeah but having to get a one stock lead and is naturally more difficult than gaining a small % lead.

 

[BSP]

Food is a stupid idea against planking.

You don't get a stock back by eating food. So the Planking Char have to kill his opponent 1 time and the "hell" starts again.

I don't think the food is meant to do something that extreme. Like Tien said, it would help discourage getting a small lead and then running/stalling/whatever