A New Rule To Think About: Grab Infinites *Ledge Stall Update*

[Sensei Seibrik]

Right now it's looking like the only thing i may actually legitimatelly ban is all kinds of infinites, excluding wall infinites (since on all allowed stages with walls, they're never there for very long/its pretty avoidable.

Like, all of DDD's Standing infinites/ Step Foward infinites. Including the one he has on himself. As well as any other characters grab release infinite on another character.

This isn't to say that yoshi's grab release chaingrabs are banned. No those are perfectly fine, however the Zelda one and yoshi one on wario in place would be banned,
as well as the marth, or any other character one on lucas/ness.

I also believe that the ddd/luigi match should allow 3 standing regrabs, since ddd can't normally chaingrab luigi at all, it would simulate what a normal chaingrab would be.

However i understand if people would disagree with this and say that ddd players should just live with the fact that luigi is an unchaingrabbable character.

I'll let the rest of you decide.


Thoughts?
This can be known as Brick's Grab Rule

Ledge-Stalling​

****************************************************

For now though, im gonna have to say the ledge stalling tactic is a viable (though gay) tactic and shouldn't be banned.
Rather than calling a judge over if you feel like the person ur gonna play may ledge stall you, call a different character over if you feel your character has a major weakness to it, yes, that's what secondaries are for.

One reason i say this is cuz i know all the smart players are already looking to this, maybe they didn't realize they're doing it, maybe they did.
Equi hates ledge stalling and he happens to 2nd meta knight.
Tommy G plays falco, has nothing on ledge stalling, and he 2nds Kirby (you dont wana risk a single **** up when ledge stalling vs him, trust me)


So yea, either be smart and pick up another 2ndary, or be the first with your character to figure out how to get around it effectively and safely.

Case closed?

On to infinites.

 

[FlatSoda]

Kind of pointless, brik.
you're gonna be flammed i feel,
but either way i agree with it.


If anything, it should be at least tested through a tourney to see results if it should be implemented in more tourneys.


it's always a good heads up.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i dont think it'll be flamed. its a proposition to a new rule that most of us believe should be implented in most, if not all FL tournies, or perhaps other tournies outside FL as well.

 

[Linguini]

play the ****ing game *******.
I like this tactic anyways with mk.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

we will be playing the game

on the levels

like MEN

 

[FlatSoda]

I don't think its that big of a deal, really.

but i still say it's good for a test.

 

[Master Raven]

Let's give it a shot. Ledge camping is too easily abuseable in Brawl.

This issue doesn't just exist with MK or Pit either, but with most, if not all the cast.

 

[Advent Lee]

I'm pretty sure that we all wouldn't want any Floridians to transform into Planks lolz.

Even though I don't have a major issue with it, I am pro banning all stalling AND infinite's.

Now go watch my combo video lolz.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199905

-advent-

 

[Equi]

Um, ledge camping is sort of a problem, um, considering that, um, MK can um, get a percent lead and, um, stay there, and um, Wolf can basically do nothing about it without getting punished, um, and if anyone doesn't see this, um, the MK is not punishing correctly, um.

The MK can basically stall out the match by staying there, tornadoing, running over to the other side, rinse, repeat. Unless time is removed this needs to be removed or tounrnament play will eventually be ruined. Props to Danny also for implementing this into Pit's game as well creatively, however, I as Wolf yesterday could do absolutely nothing to punish him and had to switch MK and tornado and ledge camp as well in the final match.

I don't want to win Brawl this way. And I refuse to continue the game and participate in it with others that do. It's ridiculous, and I'm not playing a fighting game where my opponent is never actually fighting, and I do not have the patience (though I was forced to yesterday with a time out) to repeat it.

edit: And I wouldn't mind being a judge, although I don't think it'll need to be judged once everyone gets the idea that it's banned.

 

[chckn]

alright so you're saying that if you run to the ledge you forfeit the match.. hmmmm? What if you're recovering to the ledge and waiting for an opportunity to get back on? If you limit time that you're allowed to play on the edge then why would it be any different than limiting the amount of times you're allowed to do a move? Ledge play is something really really difficult to regulate. If you ban ledge play then you definitely need to ban MK too. And how is CGing any less gay then ledge play?

IMO its a nice idea to make brawl a little less gay, but honestly you're talking about some serious **** here. This isnt banning a stage or even a character, but a playstyle. Also how are you gonna have 4 or 5 people be the judge of whether or not its banned in tourneys. Isnt that the tourney hosts discretion?

 

[chckn]

Um, ledge camping is sort of a problem, um, considering that, um, MK can um, get a percent lead and, um, stay there, and um, Wolf can basically do nothing about it without getting punished, um, and if anyone doesn't see this, um, the MK is not punishing correctly, um.

The MK can basically stall out the match by staying there, tornadoing, running over to the other side, rinse, repeat. Unless time is removed this needs to be removed or tounrnament play will eventually be ruined. Props to Danny also for implementing this into Pit's game as well creatively, however, I as Wolf yesterday could do absolutely nothing to punish him and had to switch MK and tornado and ledge camp as well in the final match.

I don't want to win Brawl this way. And I refuse to continue the game and participate in it with others that do. It's ridiculous, and I'm not playing a fighting game where my opponent is never actually fighting, and I do not have the patience (though I was forced to yesterday with a time out) to repeat it.

edit: And I wouldn't mind being a judge, although I don't think it'll need to be judged once everyone gets the idea that it's banned.

Sounds like you need to ban MK and not ledge camping. I can ledge camp with gw as a way to get around falco's lasers. Should I not be allowed to do that? To me its just way too hard to find a line as to what should be allowed and what shouldnt. Honestly its not a matter of banning this tactic, Its a matter of banning MK.

 

[Ruuku]

I mentioned this months ago and even talked about which characters can do this effectively and who can get around it and how. I even pointed out what was wrong with the current definition of stalling in Brawl. I was ignored then because everyone was b1tching about MK and Snake. Now you can all eat a ****.


Current definition of stalling in Brawl:

-*Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling. Stalling will be permitted up to 5 seconds, after that you will be forced to forfeit a stock. Any further stalling will forfeit in loss of match, then set.


-This is not to be confused with camping or zoning. If your opponent is playing a character and running away, it is not considered "stalling", as eventually they WILL run out of stage and be forced to cross you again. However, if they are hiding where you must forfeit a stock to hurt them (i.e. Sonic's HA under Battlefield), then they must forfeit the stock after 5 seconds.

 

[Leh]

alright so you're saying that if you run to the ledge you forfeit the match.. hmmmm? What if you're recovering to the ledge and waiting for an opportunity to get back on? If you limit time that you're allowed to play on the edge then why would it be any different than limiting the amount of times you're allowed to do a move? Ledge play is something really really difficult to regulate. If you ban ledge play then you definitely need to ban MK too. And how is CGing any less gay then ledge play?

IMO its a nice idea to make brawl a little less gay, but honestly you're talking about some serious **** here. This isnt banning a stage or even a character, but a playstyle. Also how are you gonna have 4 or 5 people be the judge of whether or not its banned in tourneys. Isnt that the tourney hosts discretion?

Its clear you misunderstood.

Unless pushed to the edge either through pressure or a attack (As in knocked off the stage), purposely running to the edge to abuse ledge invincible is what will be banned.

For more then 90% of the cast, it is IMPOSSIBLE to attack someone ledgecamping without putting yourself at a risk that will COST YOU YOUR STOCK. Running to the edge for the sole purpose of ledgecamping is what will be banned. Running to the edge to avoid an attack, pressure etc is not what we are banning here.

The judge thing can be resolved by the tourney host.

 

[Masky]

It's also impossible for a large percentage of the cast to avoid chaingrabbing and being gimped by MK... but those things aren't banned. Infinites also make other certain matchups (DK/DDD, Wario/DDD, Ness/Marth) difficult or impossible. So imo banning ledgestalling just for the reason that it makes a large amount of characters unplayable isn't justified, but if it is banned then a bunch of other things like infinites also need to be banned because they'd better "balance" the game. Just my opinion...

 

[nevershootme]

take a look at last month's gigs matches on my youtube. winners finals especially and you decide if wat the situations occured in the videos would designate as edge camping / stalling

 

[Advent Lee]

It's also impossible for a large percentage of the cast to avoid chaingrabbing and being gimped by MK... but those things aren't banned. Infinites also make other certain matchups (DK/DDD, Wario/DDD, Ness/Marth) difficult or impossible. So imo banning ledgestalling just for the reason that it makes a large amount of characters unplayable isn't justified, but if it is banned then a bunch of other things like infinites also need to be banned because they'd better "balance" the game. Just my opinion...

Agreed. We should ban ledge stalling and infinite's.



-advent-

 

[Master Raven]

Watch Plank vs SK92 and you'll know why ledge stalling should be banned.

 

[Equi]

alright so you're saying that if you run to the ledge you forfeit the match.. hmmmm? What if you're recovering to the ledge and waiting for an opportunity to get back on? If you limit time that you're allowed to play on the edge then why would it be any different than limiting the amount of times you're allowed to do a move? Ledge play is something really really difficult to regulate. If you ban ledge play then you definitely need to ban MK too. And how is CGing any less gay then ledge play?

IMO its a nice idea to make brawl a little less gay, but honestly you're talking about some serious **** here. This isnt banning a stage or even a character, but a playstyle. Also how are you gonna have 4 or 5 people be the judge of whether or not its banned in tourneys. Isnt that the tourney hosts discretion?

You missed the point entirely. Infinite ledge play is unpunishable by certain characters, and MK can punish out of it. The playstyle in itself, though creative and utilizing Brawl's messed up aspects of invincible edges (unlike Melee). Say I start a match, I get tornado'd and the MK has a percent lead. MK runs over, stays there. I stay around the edge for a little bit trying to mindgame him. Eventually I'm forced to take action, and a bair off the edge usually results in the MK punishing me and I die. It's been tested. The MK has several viable options, tornadoing onto the edge and running away and grabbing the other edge, etc. It doesn't take that much practice to master the 'Plank' strategy.

Obviously you can ledge hop, for ten seconds or so, no one's going to make a fuss out of it. You just can't sit there and stall it out by coming onto the stage every once in a while, then running back on. This doesn't require judges, it's common sense. If it's being done to you tell your opponent that it's banned, and if it continues pause the game and notify the director. It's that simple. I think if everyone in the community is aware of the rule, that smashers are mature enough to handle it on their own to their best judgments.

CGing and other broken moves are just part of the game. They're still avoidable. You can adapt and beat DDD without his grabs, it's hard, but that's Brawl. Ledge camping, when given a percent lead and mastered, essentially guarantees the victory of the match. So, what do you think is more gay, here?

Sounds like you need to ban MK and not ledge camping. I can ledge camp with gw as a way to get around falco's lasers. Should I not be allowed to do that? To me its just way too hard to find a line as to what should be allowed and what shouldnt. Honestly its not a matter of banning this tactic, Its a matter of banning MK.

MK is not the only character. There's also Pit, who can just sit there and shoot arrows. Essentially staying there on the ledge is equivalent to flying back and forth infinitely between the two edges (a tactic that's already been banned for quite some time as a form of stall.) Your strategy with GW is fine, as long as you come up to the edge and just don't stay the whole match with a percent and lead and constantly returning to it. I get what you're saying about the grayness of the whole debate, and how we'd have to get into specifics and everything, but once you see its done you'll see there's a pretty distinctive line between the two.

 

[Leh]

If a falco spams lasers and you use the edge to avoid it, thats fine....like i said, going on the edge to avoid an attack is fine.

Doing it for the sole purpose for stalling is not.

 

[MusicalMike]

Pardon my ignorance, but couldn't one simply occupy the edge as a solution to this? Therefore they would have no ledge to camp on.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Shouldn't be banned.

I think banning MK should be looked into instead.

Brawl just gets worse and worse.

 

[Leh]

Pardon my ignorance, but couldn't one simply occupy the edge as a solution to this? Therefore they would have no ledge to camp on.

characters with multiple jumps (which are the characters that can and will do this) will just jump until your invincibility wears off then strike you. Or just move to the other ledge....

 

[Leh]

Shouldn't be banned.

I think banning MK should be looked into instead.

Brawl just gets worse and worse.

You're ********, MULTIPLE characters can do this, not just MK.

 

[MusicalMike]

Okay, I can see how that could work, but couldn't you recycle your invincibility once you're on the ledge? That way they can't hit you.

 

[MusicalMike]

So in my mind I'm thinking this.

Situation- A meta wants to ledge camp.

My solution based off ignorance (I've personally never had to deal with it.)- Occupy the ledge they are on, and hit them while you're in your Invinc. Frames, or counter stall.

-Edit- Sorry for the double post.

 

[CO18]

So in my mind I'm thinking this.

Situation- A meta wants to ledge camp.

My solution based off ignorance (I've personally never had to deal with it.)- Occupy the ledge they are on, and hit them while you're in your Invinc. Frames, or counter stall.

-Edit- Sorry for the double post.

If theyre on the edge, you can't just occupy it that doesnt make sense... you would have to hit them off and in that case not many chars can compete with mk off the ledge and would most likely just be gimped and they can always just go to the other ledge..

Like pit ledge camping is basically camp the ledge while spamming arrows then when they try to contest you, they just up+b under the stage to the other ledge

 

[Cloudstealth]

You will lose the ledge first or they will just go around you to the other ledge.
For example:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=phRs10GVwvg
watch the 1rst minute of this match.

Obviously this ledge stalling is stupid and shameless, the MK chose to fight on the stage, he could've just waited out the entire match.

On the other hand, it is true that infinites should be banned, why should Marth vs Earthbound be so unfair?
Also why should DDD be able to effortlessly win by owning a samus, or mario character.

More importantly the game needs to change, ledge camping is stupid, does everyone really not see what Plank is doing? Why doesn't everyone play this way then? They would never lose to lesser characters without multiple jumps, or godly recoveries.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

This shouldn't be banned.

Ganon, Shiek, and Fox could do this in Melee.

Quit whinning you fvcking cry babies.

Play the **** game.

The metagame wont evolve if everyone freaks out everytime a new tactic is discovered.

(or ban MK)

And lol @ Afro saying Brawl and Melee are equally balenced.

 

[MusicalMike]

Ah, I see.

Just to be the noob with a weird idea, what if time limits were turned off? Then stalling would be discouraged because there would be no time limit to stall to. Furthermore it's not like matches are going to take 23 minutes. I predict that people would just play normally.

 

[Leh]

This shouldn't be banned.

Ganon, Shiek, and Fox could do this in Melee.

Quit whinning you fvcking cry babies.

Play the **** game.

The metagame wont evolve if everyone freaks out everytime a new tactic is discovered.

(or ban MK)

And lol @ Afro saying Brawl and Melee are equally balenced.

i definitely never said brawl and melee are equally balanced...
And grats at contradicting yourself TWICE in your own post (the bolded portion).

"Play the **** game" but "ban mk", rofl....are you serious?

 

[Blatt Blvd]

You said it at Nexus when you were pissed about losing Ganon Vs Fox/Marth.

I didnt contradict myself either.

Play the game, or ban MK so these stupid arguments will stop happening after every tourney.

 

[Leh]

You said it at Nexus when you were pissed about losing Ganon Vs Fox/Marth.

I didnt contradict myself either.

Play the game, or ban MK so these stupid arguments will stop happening after every tourney.

I definitely didnt say both games are equally balanced, and you definitely contradicted yourself.

And MK is NOT the only character that can do this, if we were to ban MK, Pit could still do it, and the problem would still be there rofl.

Seriously, please read the thread before posting.
And theres no reason to ban MK, MK hasnt won a tourney here in florida for over 4-5 months...

 

[Equi]

This shouldn't be banned.

Ganon, Shiek, and Fox could do this in Melee.

Quit whinning you fvcking cry babies.

Play the **** game.

The metagame wont evolve if everyone freaks out everytime a new tactic is discovered.

(or ban MK)

And lol @ Afro saying Brawl and Melee are equally balenced.

LOL

Incredible logic. Well thought out, and explained thoroughly.

And the metagame won't evolve if everyone just figures it out and plays like plank, either.

 

[Equi]

Ah, I see.

Just to be the noob with a weird idea, what if time limits were turned off? Then stalling would be discouraged because there would be no time limit to stall to. Furthermore it's not like matches are going to take 23 minutes. I predict that people would just play normally.

This is also an idea we've been discussing (FIU in particular) and it makes sense.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

If that's what it comes down to.

I understand you're mad about it.

How do you think fox players felt when Ken came into the Melee scene and would get one grab and end that stock?

Or every single character under high tier felt when Shiek's chain grabbing a$$ came along?

It sux.

So if it comes down to it, play MK Vs MK.

If you don't allow gay tactics to happen, you'll never figure a way around them.

A month or 2 of tournies doesn't justify a ban.

Especially in a broke a$$ game like Brawl.

 

[Advent Lee]

WRONG, sorry EQUI and others that thought of this idea but taking out the time limit will not stop hardcore plankers. Just think about it. You take out time and its you vs a plankers MK. The tornado you and then begin to camp the ledge. Now they are not trying to run out the time and win by percent but they are trying to force you to approach them. Since they will be leading in percents (the same way as if time was on) you HAVE to approach them, and then they will just gay you off the ledge. The only way to get rid of this is to appoint judges and BAN ledge camping.

Its funny how I am fighting so hard to get TO's to ban ledge camping and infinite's when I don't have a problem with ledge campers and don't play a character that can get infinited lolz. I guess I just wanna make the community better/happier.



-advent-

 

[Equi]

If that's what it comes down to.

I understand you're mad about it.

How do you think fox players felt when Ken came into the Melee scene and would get one grab and end that stock?

Or every single character under high tier felt when Shiek's chain grabbing a$$ came along?

It sux.

So if it comes down to it, play MK Vs MK.

If you don't allow gay tactics to happen, you'll never figure a way around them.

A month or 2 of tournies doesn't justify a ban.

Especially in a broke a$$ game like Brawl.

Honestly, have you read the thread at all? The combos in Melee were based off of technical precision and skill. No offense, but read the posts before bringing up your arguments. Not all characters can punish ledge hopping in Brawl. Brawl's edges were given extra security, unlike Melee, and yes I know Ganon can infinitely ledge hop in Melee. No one wants to be forced to play Snake and timing C4z the whole match on the ledge just to stand a chance. The metagame will go nowhere.

Who cares if Ken came on the scene and started these beautiful combos? That was Melee. This is Brawl. Fox had just as much counterability with shine spiking and uthrow uair.

What you fail to understand is that Melee was a highly flavored game with many layers of depth. Adaptibility was more possible in Melee due to there being more options, you could eventually get around some of those broken tactics and counter with your own broken tactics. In Brawl, we're dealing with a narrower game with unpunishable ledge hopping. Do you not understand? Honestly have you watched any videos of Plank at all? Of course some characters can get around it, and a lot can't. And even the ones that go off the edge, there's a lot of risk involved in losing a stock.

 

[Equi]

WRONG, sorry EQUI and others that thought of this idea but taking out the time limit will not stop hardcore plankers. Just think about it. You take out time and its you vs a plankers MK. The tornado you and then begin to camp the ledge. Now they are not trying to run out the time and win by percent but they are trying to force you to approach them. Since they will be leading in percents (the same way as if time was on) you HAVE to approach them, and then they will just gay you off the ledge. The only way to get rid of this is to appoint judges and BAN ledge camping.

Its funny how I am fighting so hard to get TO's to ban ledge camping and infinite's when I don't have a problem with ledge campers and don't play a character that can get infinited lolz. I guess I just wanna make the community better/happier.



-advent-

Not true. What we would have is a complete stallout. Without time you don't have to approach. There'd be no motivation to just sit there, as the match would just drag on eternally. However I do understand your point. The problem is they could just sit there forever, until someone passes out from boredom LOL. You'd have to question the motivations of the players in that case. I do get your point entirely, but at the same time would the MK player really have the motivation to go to the edge then without time. Somehow I doubt it. Meh, I see it both ways. Yeah, you're right.

 

[MusicalMike]

Somebody will beat it. It will take some time, but somebody will find a way around this.

 

[Master Raven]

Somebody will beat it. It will take some time, but somebody will find a way around this.

People have already tried, and it's just frustrating. I've even experimented with countering stalling with a friend and it's simply too difficult to counter unless you play a floaty character like DDD, MK, Kirby, etc.