A Modest Proposal (Read Bionic Sonic's post, #90, for a good plan on what to do)

[Isatis]

I think you mean Major League Gaming...

Isn't it about time we just... split off? Make our own forum? Smashboards isn't going to give us the space we need, and we're starting to become a separate entity. I know I don't post anywhere outside of the Workshop anymore. We can't fit all of these people in this small of a space for much longer. What if we just created a new forum and had the old Smash Workshop forum link on Smashboards be a URL redirect to our new forum?

Only one thing. We're the top site when it comes to finding Brawl mods. Everyone comes here for Smash information. You have a better chance of targeting your niche through Smashboards than any other site.

I support this idea.

I am also wondering why the Smash Workshop is in the General Brawl forum. It's the largest forum on this site and it's a subforum for the General Brawl Discussion, not to mention it's a subforum with subforums =_=

Legal issues, unfortunately.

 

[Stoney]

I think you mean Major League Gaming...

Nonsense, the group is totally modern and comprised of gamers.

This is what happens when I stay up way too late to surf this forum and make gigantic posts, sorry MLG.

 

[DoB04]

I agree with the idea of having a thread linking to all the various project threads instead.... I mean sure, whoever were to make the topic would have to be a very dedicated member to keep it on track and constantly update it as new projects emerge (or we can have a mod make the thread so that he can keep it locked and receive new project links through pm) but sharing a thread with other projects is just troublesome.... and deleting all these threads is a real waste, as they are vast in information regarding bugs and problems that several people usually come across and end up fixing (I fixed a few problems with my projects by reading other project threads....)

 

[Fen__]

Legal issues, unfortunately.

Could you elaborate? It might help us formulate something better if we know the full extent of the situation. Also, instead of deleting the current topics, why can't they just be archived into a locked subforum? I'm going to go ahead and predict it's related to what you said about not being able to get new subforums, so that leads me to my next question...

Why is it that MLG is so against new subforums? What reason do they have to care about another level of forums? It's not like it's remotely difficult to add forums in vB or anything, and the moderation could just be inherited from the parent forum (this one). After reading everything proposed so far, it seems to me like this is necessary information for us making an informed vote on what to do.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Uh, MLG really doesn't want to be a part of this. If they were the possibility of being sued would increase tenfold, and sticking this out as a giant forum just screams "LOL NINTY".

 

[Isatis]

Could you elaborate? It might help us formulate something better if we know the full extent of the situation. Also, instead of deleting the current topics, why can't they just be archived into a locked subforum? I'm going to go ahead and predict it's related to what you said about not being able to get new subforums, so that leads me to my next question...

Why is it that MLG is so against new subforums? What reason do they have to care about another level of forums? It's not like it's remotely difficult to add forums in vB or anything, and the moderation could just be inherited from the parent forum (this one). After reading everything proposed so far, it seems to me like this is necessary information for us making an informed vote on what to do.

Who said anything about deleting? I even mentioned to Stoney in PM that I could work some mod power magic to combine threads (or get an admin to shift around posts and such). MLG isn't so much against new subforums as it is, well, it usually takes a long time for everything to get done. JV's usually a busy guy and we don't want to disturb him. In fact, we've been waiting for a year now for a forum upgrade, the most asked feature request for Smashboards, which still hasn't taken place yet.

Now, as for the legal issues, Guy is wrong. Major League Gaming wants to maintain a good, healthy relationship with Nintendo, but at the same time wants to be a home for the community, including the Workshop. They don't want to walk into the territory where Nintendo assumes MLG is condoning modding, since Nintendo absolutely hates it. This is why the Workshop is not going to go out of GBD and why talking about certain stuff (HBC etc) is disallowed.


edit: So I just looked into the conversation we had for the original plan (Help/Code Sets/CC)... JV himself states that if Customized Content gets too overcrowded (like now), we can add a new subforum for it, which means Bio seriously fails at remembering stuff. Next time I get a chance to talk to JV, I'll definitely note that it's needed.

 

[TommoPuppy]

Yaaaaay! That's awesome!

 

[digiholic]

So we can get a subforum? Awesome. We should make it a forum version of the fully new character archive, keep the customized content board for PSAs and animation edits and the like.

 

[Stoney]

Who said anything about deleting? I even mentioned to Stoney in PM that I could work some mod power magic to combine threads (or get an admin to shift around posts and such).

Yeah, I mentioned deleting the posts in the OP. Whoops. When you said "mod magic" I thought you meant copying the OPs of the individual threads and pasting them into a new thread, I didn't know you had the ability to bend time and space. That's wild, man.

edit: So I just looked into the conversation we had for the original plan (Help/Code Sets/CC)... JV himself states that if Customized Content gets too overcrowded (like now), we can add a new subforum for it, which means Bio seriously fails at remembering stuff. Next time I get a chance to talk to JV, I'll definitely note that it's needed.

...Are you serious?

WELL THEN, looks like this whole thread was unnecessary. I didn't even bother to ask Bionic Sonic about a new subforum in PM because I correctly assumed he would reply in the negative. But if that option is in fact available, even I would support it. It provides organization with minimal disruption to the status quo and would probably satisfy the most people.

So hey, I'd like to thank everyone for participating in this thread and contributing ideas, your input was very much appreciated. The thread isn't over yet, though; we need a name for the new subforum. Also, would implementing the one-thread-per-game idea inside of the new subforum be overkill or would it help keep that place from becoming as crowded as Customized Content currently is? And is just one subforum good enough, or should we have one for characters from non-Brawl games, one for Assist Trophy characters, and one for 100% original characters? Do any of you think a new subforum is a bad idea in general for whatever reason? Is eating infants REALLY the answer to life's problems? Discuss!

 

[Isatis]

Yeah, my fault. x_x

And, I think we only need one new subforum to handle the growth. I'll let the Workshop name it and pass it on to JV. It might not come the next day, or even in the next week unfortunately (I imagine JV will be busy with the MLG events) though.

So here's customized content now:
- Fµlly Nëw Chàrácter Archive. (Model+Animations+PSA)
- Brawl Custom Music Hub: Archiving all the music in one place!
- Texture Database & How-to thread
- PSA Character Submission Topic v2
- Project threads [model-based]
- Project threads [PSA-based]
- Stage hacks
- Custom CSS, Menu hacks, miscellaneous

What would you want to see kept here, and what would you want to see moved into the new subforum? My opinion would just be moving both project threads to the new subforum, but again, I'll leave it up to you guys.

 

[Zeruel21]

I'd say anything relating to new characters, whether PSA, model import, or in game resources. Then we could call it a "Character Workshop" forum, and leave all the other threads here. That may not sound like a lot, but as we've seen it will grow quickly.

 

[digiholic]

How about "M.U.G.E.N. Brawl"?

Or howzabout calling it "New Content"? We'll have Customized Content for the stuff already in brawl but changed, and New Content for stuff added in.

Either way, it should effectively be the MDL0 thread and Fully New Character Archive in forum-form. Keep this forum for textures, vertex hacks, PSAs, sound effects, and music.

 

[Mit]

"Custom Characters"

Anything to get rid of all these "Project" character threads and put them in their own place. They're by far the most populating thing in the forum, and if they were in their own place it'd allow other things like textures and stage hacks to get more attention again.

Plus, it's only going to become more of a problem in the future. Once model importing works in the new BrawlBox, it will skyrocket. There will be tons of new characters projects for **** near anything imaginable.


It wouldn't totally address the MDL0 thread as that also has to do with other models like stuff for stages and other objects, but really, that's only one thread, and it'd be fine staying here (especially because it'd probably become more of a showcase thread once every one becomes used to importing MDL0's in the new BrawlBox).



EDIT: I did a count. 22 out of the 30 available threads (not including stickies) on the first page are character threads. A subforum definitely needs to be dedicated to custom characters.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

''Custom Characters'' is the best sounding to me. It is simple, and simple is good.

Will be happy for a new subforum, as said in one of the posts above. It would allow normal textures and stage hacks to get more attention.

 

[TommoPuppy]

But aren't they posted in a general thread anyway?

 

[Fen__]

I agree with digiholic about the content of the new subforum. It should only contain things that would be considered able to be posted in the Fully New Character Archive. This means imported models, partially swapped models, heavy vertex hacks, etc. It does not include a retextured Mario that has fire attributes added to all of his Brawl moves.

As far as a name goes, I'm not particularly picky, but I guess "Custom Characters", as proposed by Wariofan1, is the best that has been said so far. It may be a little misleading if we don't put the light-edit PSAs in there, though, so maybe it isn't the greatest thing to settle on.

EDIT: Why not make the name some variant of the Fully New Character Archive? That encompasses the meaning fully, but having it named exactly that would obviously be a bad idea since it would create ambiguity regarding what someone was referring to when they said the name.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, there can always be a sticky that warns people not to post something that's just small edits... I think "Custom Characters" is fine.

It will definitely need a character directory thread, though. We sorta already have that with the fully new character archive, but it might need some cleaning up or we might just want a whole new thread to start fresh.

 

[Alphatron]

I think the new forum should be called Project Custom Characters instead of merely Custom Characters. Do I really need to explain myself.

 

[Fen__]

I think the new forum should be called Project Custom Characters instead of merely Custom Characters. Do I really need to explain myself.

I'd laugh, but I'm afraid for the slight chance that you're serious.

 

[Alphatron]

I wasn't serious in the least. Everything is a project now.

 

[CT Chia]

I say call it Custom Characters

However, there's like a million + 1 projects floating around, most of which don't even get updated or are pointless with no purpose.

To help fix should problems, I would suggest it be handled very similar to how the old Strategy Pokedex subforum used to be done (before it became the Pokemon Research subforum).

1. Make a subforum called Custom Characters.
2. Make a new user group/title, call it something like Character Creators
3. Change the subforum's rights so that only people in the Character Creators usergroup can make new threads, then have it so any forum user can reply to threads.
4. You may only make a new thread for your new character after you have submitted a proposal to the usergroup admin (like Bionic or someone he appoints). Likewise, each thread should only have one character project in it. You would gain access to the usergroup (so you can make a thread) after your first proposal is approved.
5. Even after getting usergroup access you would still need a proposal review to make a new thread, for the sake of organization and keeping the quality of projects high.
6. A proposal should include all basic information such as what character your making, your plan on how to make him, any progress you have made so far (you should probably have some progress on your own already to display to show that the project isn't just a pipe dream), stuff like that.

Just a suggestion, but it keeps project threads quality high and organized.

 

[Mit]

If it gets that bad I could see that being necessary. However I would think an index sticky and allowing anyone to create threads would be all right to start with at least. For all the little small projects that don't go anywhere, you just don't list them in the index yet and leave them to die.

When can this happen? I want it to happen soon :3

 

[Stoney]

I say call it Custom Characters

However, there's like a million + 1 projects floating around, most of which don't even get updated or are pointless with no purpose.

To help fix should problems, I would suggest it be handled very similar to how the old Strategy Pokedex subforum used to be done (before it became the Pokemon Research subforum).

1. Make a subforum called Custom Characters.
2. Make a new user group/title, call it something like Character Creators
3. Change the subforum's rights so that only people in the Character Creators usergroup can make new threads, then have it so any forum user can reply to threads.
4. You may only make a new thread for your new character after you have submitted a proposal to the usergroup admin (like Bionic or someone he appoints). Likewise, each thread should only have one character project in it. You would gain access to the usergroup (so you can make a thread) after your first proposal is approved.
5. Even after getting usergroup access you would still need a proposal review to make a new thread, for the sake of organization and keeping the quality of projects high.
6. A proposal should include all basic information such as what character your making, your plan on how to make him, any progress you have made so far (you should probably have some progress on your own already to display to show that the project isn't just a pipe dream), stuff like that.

Just a suggestion, but it keeps project threads quality high and organized.

This sounds like it might slow things down a lot but in the end it would probably help to keep things organized.

Are there any username colors left for a new user group, though? I remember people making a fuss about it when the color for forum donators wound up being lime green due to a lack of alternatives.

 

[CT Chia]

Both comments from the last two posts are good. Mit's suggestion is another good alternative that while lacks a little bit officially, is really simple and doesn't require a lot to implement.

As for Stoney it would slow things down a little bit, but that was sort of an aim of my suggestion, ultimately to help dissuade people from making tiny projects that go no where. There are tons of quality projects here that deserve full attention while on the contrary there are a lot of people that spam new projects, make a thread, and their first objective would be get the model. And then their first post/question to everyone being ok how do I get the model lol

 

[GP&B]

Personally, I'd still like the option of making a team thread for some specific cases (mentioned doing all of the ToS2 characters before). Any other user will probably desire to stick to individual projects.

 

[ds22]

Personally, I'd still like the option of making a team thread for some specific cases (mentioned doing all of the ToS2 characters before). Any other user will probably desire to stick to individual projects.

Offtopic: Now that your mentioning ToS2, did you got them to work yet?

 

[Fen__]

Personally, I'd still like the option of making a team thread for some specific cases (mentioned doing all of the ToS2 characters before). Any other user will probably desire to stick to individual projects.

No one would be stopping you from making a batch thread as long as it had progress. You wouldn't be allowed to dictate that everyone using models from that game post there, obviously, but it wouldn't be disallowed by these new rules.

 

[GP&B]

Offtopic: Now that your mentioning ToS2, did you got them to work yet?

I wouldn't know anything more about hexing than you do. I tried some things, but to no avail. I'm completely dependent on RTB for getting it fixed. I'll assume then that he could get the rest of them working and would teach me how. I'm also really hoping that ToS2 has the appropriate animation format as that would save so much more work and look far more professional.

No one would be stopping you from making a batch thread as long as it had progress. You wouldn't be allowed to dictate that everyone using models from that game post there, obviously, but it wouldn't be disallowed by these new rules.

Leading the team, I would serve as the file host, project controller (making sure that there isn't already someone working on the same character), and post archiver (either with important updates on the character that I'd be doing, Lloyd, or links to the other characters that other leaders are working on).

 

[TommoPuppy]

At another messageboard I used to go to you're not allowed to make a post for your work-in-progress project in Editing until you have sufficient proof of progress on it, or otherwise your thread will be locked. After that, when/if you're finished, you can post it in the download submissions forum and wait for approval from admins, moderators and a special group of judges, where they'll either move it to the appropriate download category or to a hidden trash forum. The downloads thing wouldn't apply to here due to the legal thing but if we had a subforum rule set similar to that board's Editing forum I think that will be enough and work great for this community.

 

[darksamus77]

If I may, I agree with ChiboSempai's idea entirely. It would keep threads seperate and more organized, and require you to have good enough progress to submit a new project while allowing the old projects to keep their status.

 

[pokelover980]

I also agree with Chibo's idea.

 

[Isatis]

Right now, the idea makes sense, but I've got a few things to sort out in private that are a bit unclear. I'm going to have a chat with Chibo first to make I've got it right (if that's what everyone is agreeing on).

 

[Mit]

I'd say try for Chibo's idea, but if it doesn't work, fall back on the more simple plan. I'm sure it's not easy talking people into adding more forums into this hacking section, especially with how iffy it is around MLG people, and how we just got a ton more forums to work with. If adding stuff like more usergroups starts dissuading the higher-ups, definitely go for the more simple plan.

simple plan simple plan simple plan

 

[brawlshifter]

EDIT: Why not make the name some variant of the Fully New Character Archive?

The Fully New Character Forum? (Or Subforum, whatever you want to call it.)

Just a suggestion, but it keeps project threads quality high and organized.

And it also gives Bionic Sonic a ton of work, if I'm understanding this correctly.

 

[Fen__]

And it also gives Bionic Sonic a ton of work, if I'm understanding this correctly.

No more than locking threads constantly would.

 

[Stoney]

And it also gives Bionic Sonic a ton of work, if I'm understanding this correctly.

No more than locking threads constantly would.

He will always have to lock threads, regardless of what rules are implemented. There will always be morons who don't read any of the rules and post "HEY GUYS I NEED SOME HELP" threads in the most popular subforum with the most browsing traffic. Implementing these rules would just add more work on top of that. But on the plus side, Bionic wouldn't be locking threads in this new subforum (because only the user group could make threads), just all the others.

Still, though...the chore of putting together the user group and review process pales in comparison to the actual work of reviewing everything that would need it under this system. That's why I cannot see these rules being implemented unless Bionic Sonic appoints a proxy of some kind to keep track of things while he tends to other stuff.

 

[[TSON]]

And it also gives Bionic Sonic a ton of work, if I'm understanding this correctly.

Nobody said he had to be in charge of the usergroup though.

 

[Isatis]

He will always have to lock threads, regardless of what rules are implemented. There will always be morons who don't read any of the rules and post "HEY GUYS I NEED SOME HELP" threads in the most popular subforum with the most browsing traffic. Implementing these rules would just add more work on top of that. But on the plus side, Bionic wouldn't be locking threads in this new subforum (because only the user group could make threads), just all the others.

I actually have less work of locking/moving threads as I did 2 months ago xD but agreed.

Still, though...the chore of putting together the user group and review process pales in comparison to the actual work of reviewing everything that would need it under this system. That's why I cannot see these rules being implemented unless Bionic Sonic appoints a proxy of some kind to keep track of things while he tends to other stuff.

I agree, this is not going to be a job for one person. Veril moderates a portion of the Workshop dedicated to code set projects (as well as leading Brawl+) and as much as he is helpful in that regards, I'm not sure he'll know what to do related to PSA/model projects. Which is why I'm going to ask CK/JV if we can add a third and final moderator to the Workshop specifically for Tutorials, FAQs & Help as well as Customized Content, and, if Chibo's idea is used, the new usergroup.

I just returned from a tournament so I'm too drained to work on anything at the moment, but hopefully tomorrow I'll have a clearer vision of what I'm doing.


@TSON: If the plan were to be put in place, I would be one of the group leaders since I oversee virtually everything that goes on in the Workshop.

 

[Shadic]

If we get a new sub forum for PSAs, I say we dub it:
Custom Character Creation

 

[highfive]

I was considering:

I. Customized Content

A. PSAs​

B. Character Specific Texture Hacks​

a. All characters?​

b. Shops where we can browse textures​

C. Custom Music​

a. By Genre​

b. Or by Game/Artist​

D. Stage Hacks​

a. Brawl+ competitive stages in development
(frees the actual Brawl+ stages for the actual stages and discussion)​

b. Stage Builds (Such as WeeGee and Captain Falcon, the stages)​