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A Lucas+ Primer & Discussion: NOW DISCUSSING MARF MATCHUP
- Thread starter Shell
- Start date
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Can Lucas have his old PK fire back? When I said Lucas needed a Zair (which is awesome btw) I meant in conjunction with his useful PK Fire. I mean it wasn't even too good before lol, not only did you nerf his recovery (magnet pull = shit now) but you made his already meh camping game even worse. I mean Lucas definitely was not deserving of a nerf lol, he's clearly in the bottom half of characters as is...
The Cape
Smash Master
I have to ask:
Shell, Lucas is one of the most perfectly done characters in terms of moves usage, speeds, power, etc. Completely balanced in every way. How did you do it?
Shell, Lucas is one of the most perfectly done characters in terms of moves usage, speeds, power, etc. Completely balanced in every way. How did you do it?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Luck?
Seriously though, all Lucas needed was a little push. Brawl+ provides that for him.
Seriously though, all Lucas needed was a little push. Brawl+ provides that for him.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
stingers
Smash Obsessed
fine, ignore me >.>
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Edit: I didn't update. XD
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
My only gripe with Lucas ATM is the fact that he can't use PKF for mobility purposes any more. I think we should give it IASA into Psi Magnet to make up for the fact that you can't reverse PKF to recover any more.
Besides that, I'm extremely happy with Lucas and am glad that pretty much all of my ideas have been used except for PK Freeze changes.
Besides that, I'm extremely happy with Lucas and am glad that pretty much all of my ideas have been used except for PK Freeze changes.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
lol is this dead?
i want to watch some videos of Lucas in the lastest version, please
i want to watch some videos of Lucas in the lastest version, please
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
I like that he can sort of auto-snap the ledge now instead of bounce off. IMO, I'd like to see the PKF speed buff back, he has a pretty s***ty and overrated camp game in both games.
Veril
Frame Savant
Unnecessary balance changes geared towards making someone better at camping...
Lucas is fantastic right now other than PKT2, and even that is debatable.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
>.>
Stingers plays Brawl+ Lucas?
Also, that was about the fact that Lucas can't kill safely, not about how Stingers is a campy motherf***er.
But I just liked the buff before, he doesn't necessarily need it.
Stingers plays Brawl+ Lucas?
Also, that was about the fact that Lucas can't kill safely, not about how Stingers is a campy motherf***er.
But I just liked the buff before, he doesn't necessarily need it.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
brawl+ lucas is my main, i got 2nd at the pause and play brawl+ tourney a few weeks ago (beat lord karn in winners and losers there, you should know him)
i wish vids were recorded there :/
i wish vids were recorded there :/
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
awesome.
I've really only got into + recently b/c it took me forever to convince Mizu to play Brawl+
I've really only got into + recently b/c it took me forever to convince Mizu to play Brawl+
Veril
Frame Savant
Lucas is amazing and he's definitely the flashiest character in the game. He has everything I want in a character: great gimping/combo game, good aerial spacing moves and throw combos, low% kill moves, a hax recovery, and a powerful spike.
Brawl Lucas was mediocre in nearly every respect (horrible in some), but was crazy fun to play. A lot of players used him initially and dropped him after realizing that he sucked. vBrawl Lucas broke my ****ing heart. Lucas in B+ is much better as a character (omg viable lucas ftw) and waaaay more fun than vBrawl (no bias lol). No grab-releases, much better approach options given ALR, shieldstun increases and especially dash-canceling. Dash-canceled jabs, tilts, f-smash, etc. Wavebounced PK-fire spam is somewhat weaker at higher levels of play cause people can and will powershield it if they are experienced with the matchup. You also NEED to utilize his recovery options and learn to properly utilize PKT2.
Speaking of PKT2, I'm not changing it, and here's why: practicing this recovery will stop you from SDing with it. If you can aim slightly under the lip you can avoid the bounce. I've already shown a few people that its possibly to consistently avoid PKT2 SDs due to the lack of an autosweetspot (Cape, Yami Sora, Omegablackmage, Allied, etc). You shouldn't try to pkt2 recover to the lip unless you are at least slightly below the lip, and able to hit the slope at the correct angle. Its not really necessary to do this (actually its a terrible idea even beyond the fact that you'll fall to an embarrassing death); Lucas has a incredibly versatile recovery: Lag canceled pkt2, pkt2 used correctly, DJ spaced aerials, tethering, and the various ATs... Tethering's generally the best option, but oh man does Lucas have some crazy s*** he can pull with his recovery.
There's definitely a higher learning curve to Lucas... he's bada** like that. I don't know if its really possible to use Lucas that well as a second just considering you need to put more time into him.
"Switches back to maining Lucas"
Brawl Lucas was mediocre in nearly every respect (horrible in some), but was crazy fun to play. A lot of players used him initially and dropped him after realizing that he sucked. vBrawl Lucas broke my ****ing heart. Lucas in B+ is much better as a character (omg viable lucas ftw) and waaaay more fun than vBrawl (no bias lol). No grab-releases, much better approach options given ALR, shieldstun increases and especially dash-canceling. Dash-canceled jabs, tilts, f-smash, etc. Wavebounced PK-fire spam is somewhat weaker at higher levels of play cause people can and will powershield it if they are experienced with the matchup. You also NEED to utilize his recovery options and learn to properly utilize PKT2.
Speaking of PKT2, I'm not changing it, and here's why: practicing this recovery will stop you from SDing with it. If you can aim slightly under the lip you can avoid the bounce. I've already shown a few people that its possibly to consistently avoid PKT2 SDs due to the lack of an autosweetspot (Cape, Yami Sora, Omegablackmage, Allied, etc). You shouldn't try to pkt2 recover to the lip unless you are at least slightly below the lip, and able to hit the slope at the correct angle. Its not really necessary to do this (actually its a terrible idea even beyond the fact that you'll fall to an embarrassing death); Lucas has a incredibly versatile recovery: Lag canceled pkt2, pkt2 used correctly, DJ spaced aerials, tethering, and the various ATs... Tethering's generally the best option, but oh man does Lucas have some crazy s*** he can pull with his recovery.
There's definitely a higher learning curve to Lucas... he's bada** like that. I don't know if its really possible to use Lucas that well as a second just considering you need to put more time into him.
"Switches back to maining Lucas"
stingers
Smash Obsessed
alr doesn't help lucas' approach he just acs everything
but
lucas is awesome
and pk fire is important at all levels of play, even if not as a camping move it's great at stuffing sh approaches
but
lucas is awesome
and pk fire is important at all levels of play, even if not as a camping move it's great at stuffing sh approaches
Veril
Frame Savant
um, land-canceled nair combos say hi... also perfectly land-canceled fair vs autocanceled fair: they're both good
you can perfectly autocancel fair if you buffer it out of a SH, since it autocancels on 32 iirc and that's the duration of his normal SH. You lose about 13 frames of advantage vs SHFF, but you don't have to commit to it quite as much as SHFF fair. 13 frames is a lot when you're talking about advantage on block or combo windows...
I agree on pk-fire, never said it was bad. You can stuff more approaches in B+ by default since people will actually approach lol
you can perfectly autocancel fair if you buffer it out of a SH, since it autocancels on 32 iirc and that's the duration of his normal SH. You lose about 13 frames of advantage vs SHFF, but you don't have to commit to it quite as much as SHFF fair. 13 frames is a lot when you're talking about advantage on block or combo windows...
I agree on pk-fire, never said it was bad. You can stuff more approaches in B+ by default since people will actually approach lol
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I love Brawl+ Lucas, whenever I play Brawl I get sad because he's so bad in comparison (although he's still fun to play). He has so many little tricks that just make playing him fun.
Also since I main sheik in Melee its cool that they both share virtually the same input for an AT (upB while running off ledge)
Also since I main sheik in Melee its cool that they both share virtually the same input for an AT (upB while running off ledge)
Sulfur
Smash Apprentice
My friend mains Lucas and has trouble with bouncing. What are the safest angles to recover from?
5ive
Smash Champion
Picked up Zair. Zair is a beast. Comes out fast, hits while rising, combos well.
dthrow turnaround zair. You can follow DI by dash dancing before the turn around zair. ****ING BEAST. BEAAAST.
dthrow turnaround zair. You can follow DI by dash dancing before the turn around zair. ****ING BEAST. BEAAAST.
i regret programming lucas zair
like many other inventions before it, it does nothing but destroy dreams instead of build them, dismantle peace instead of bringing it, and spouting chaos where once only peace was a word
like many other inventions before it, it gave the strong a tool to be strong, and bolted out the light the weak once had; contrary to design, the rope snake continues to distort space-time, and space-time distorts man...man distorts man.
TL;DR: you know something is wrong when 5ive picks up ur character
like many other inventions before it, it does nothing but destroy dreams instead of build them, dismantle peace instead of bringing it, and spouting chaos where once only peace was a word
like many other inventions before it, it gave the strong a tool to be strong, and bolted out the light the weak once had; contrary to design, the rope snake continues to distort space-time, and space-time distorts man...man distorts man.
TL;DR: you know something is wrong when 5ive picks up ur character
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Z is to Lucas what C-stick is to Olimar
and I love it
oh god I'm posting like Viet
get outta mah head!
and I love it
oh god I'm posting like Viet
get outta mah head!
5ive
Smash Champion
Edited previous post for accuracy.
RPGsFTW
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 754
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that my Lucas+ playing friend did the Dthrow turn around Zair to me a long time ago. He also managed to tech chase that into a Down-B zap kill once too.
Oh, and the Shark texture, Earthbound shark punks, is the best Lucas texture I've ever seen, period. <333
Oh, and the Shark texture, Earthbound shark punks, is the best Lucas texture I've ever seen, period. <333
5ive
Smash Champion
lol ur ****ing proud arent you
stingers
Smash Obsessed
5ive why are you so homo
RPGsFTW
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
- Messages
- 754
It was probably to someone in the IRC after a tournament.
I bet my friend was proud for tech chasing me into a Down-B kill after the Dthrow-Zair. It was pretty cool, but one of those "one in a million" matches kinda thing, I'd say.
5ive
Smash Champion
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Zair zaired my zair in the zair
Sulfur
Smash Apprentice
I heard Ke$ha woke up today feelin' like Zair.
Veril
Frame Savant
The zair is good but it isn't THAT good. fair on the other hand...
Yoshi's story hates PKT2. You die if you try to ride up the sides and its one of the hardest to pseudo-sweetspot. Good time to swing in on that sexy zair or a wavezap.
Yoshi's story hates PKT2. You die if you try to ride up the sides and its one of the hardest to pseudo-sweetspot. Good time to swing in on that sexy zair or a wavezap.
Sulfur
Smash Apprentice
Are there any vids of 6.0 lucas up?
It's always a good time to swing in on that zair.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Zair is great, I'm really glad I pushed so hard for that change back then. And it really isn't op, it just helps Lucas do cool stuff and suffer less in his worse matchups (Marth, GW, Disjointed Hitbox).
Also magnet having an actually effective offensive use makes me happy.
By the way, what are the specific changes to Lucas in 6.0?
Also magnet having an actually effective offensive use makes me happy.
By the way, what are the specific changes to Lucas in 6.0?
Veril
Frame Savant
Nothing new. Lucas wasn't changed at all from 5.0 to 6.0 from what I'm aware of. Nor will he be changed at all in the transition to gold.
Shell is the man.
Magnet is Lucas's most powerful aerial move knockback wise, killing slightly earlier than the strong fair and up-air.
In terms of raw KO power (not counting meteor spikes or up-tilt which I haven't tested), here's how his moves stack up.
1. Up-smash: KB varies greatly depending on whether all hitboxes connect or not.
2. d-smash
3. f-smash
4. up-throw
5. Psi-m, strong fair, up-air (order depends on whether the character is a FFer or not)
6. strong f-tilt
7. b-throw
Shell is the man.
Magnet is Lucas's most powerful aerial move knockback wise, killing slightly earlier than the strong fair and up-air.
In terms of raw KO power (not counting meteor spikes or up-tilt which I haven't tested), here's how his moves stack up.
1. Up-smash: KB varies greatly depending on whether all hitboxes connect or not.
2. d-smash
3. f-smash
4. up-throw
5. Psi-m, strong fair, up-air (order depends on whether the character is a FFer or not)
6. strong f-tilt
7. b-throw
stingers
Smash Obsessed
dsmash before fsmash? o.o is that optimal DI?