A Lucas+ Primer & Discussion: NOW DISCUSSING MARF MATCHUP

[Mattnumbers]

I B-stick.

And by the way, the part of the c-stick you have to hit to do a neutral special is much less than 20%, you have to be pretty exact.

Stingers you can still use B to do specials if you set specials to the c-stick you know, and b-sticking really is more effective than manually doing it. Its faster and more spammable, not to mention easier. And it actually is more effective since you can do it faster.

Toxicow you bstick right? Nevermind saw that you don't. Same advice to you that I gave stingers

 

[stingers]

I actually played a Samus (on Wifi lol) and I agree that it's 55/45 Lucas' favor. With lucas you want to be going for the easy kills by pushing her offstage because Samus is so floaty in the air. Standard pressuring with Fair and PK Fire will be good at that when you're not being assaulted by millions of missles. Once you get Samus offstage (which should be your primary goal after you get her to around 60%, which is pretty easy since Lucas has various 0-70 combos lol), make sure she's not close enough to the ledge to tether on and then wreck her with PK Thunder. While her horizontal recovery is pretty decent due to the Bomb bouncing tricks she has, her vertical recovery is horrible so you want to try to aim your PK thunder to try and pseudo-spike her. If you miss with PK thunder or she makes it back to the ledge anyway, your Dsmash won't be that useful for killing because of her tether recovery. Plus, even if the Samus is forced to use Up-B, it's pretty fast and has more range then it looks like so your Dsmashes won't be hitting much anyway.

When trying to approach Samus to set up a combo, you want to be wary of all the missiles she'll be shooting out. Samus in Brawl+ is still very similar to vBrawl Samus, in that she needs to be shooting out ****loads of projectiles to make sure nobody gets into her range because she's still pretty slow when it comes to melee. Don't let her get a charge shot, because she has guaranteed combos into Charge Shot now and won't be shooting it randomly for you to absorb with PK Magnet.

55:45 Lucas due to the difficulty in approaching, but once you get in you can pretty much wreck havoc. It's just getting in is pretty difficult. Powershield everything and advance as best you can is my only advice.

Matt, B sticking just makes it easier to wavebounce, it doesn't make it any more effective. If you've learned to wavebounce without B Sticking, there's no reason to give up the C stick for it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Using PK Fire faster after jumping=different results
B-sticking is obviously faster than doing it manually

 

[stingers]

Matt, work on your finger speed if you really have that much difficulty with hitting Side B after jumping...

 

[ToxiCrow]

matt are you talking about SHPKF? thats really not hard to do. neither is Full Hop Lagless PKF.

i also set L to jump because i dont like to claw

 

[Mattnumbers]

Hitting a direction on the c-stick will always be faster than hitting sideb then the opposite direction on the controller pad......

anyways I'll be back in like 15 minutes, I'm eating dinner.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Negligibly faster, since B sticking costs you retreating bairs/fairs, as well as a lot of control in the air.

But it's all preference for most characters. Lucas though might actually benefit more from B-sticking than a normal setup.


That said, I don't Bstick.

 

[Mattnumbers]

That is true about the retreating fairs and lately I've been considering changing just for that but there really aren't many situations when I think I could have used a fully retreating fair.

 

[stingers]

if you don't think you can use a retreating fair then i don't know what game you're playing <.<

 

[ToxiCrow]

there really aren't many situations when I think I could have used a fully retreating fair.

when playing Lucas, space is your best friend.
retreating fairs create space between you and the person you're fighting.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Disjointed hitboxes are your friend.

 

[stingers]

okay well i think i covered the samus matchup in my writeup 10 posts ago

if there are no objections I think we should move on to something else...any votes?

MK or Marth IMO

 

[Shell]

I need to learn to wavebounce manually. >.>

Also, has the Samus discussion pretty much run its course? I'm sorry I don't have much to add to that. I think that we should move matchup discussion into covering more of the current best characters, since we'll likely be seeing a lot of them in tourney play.

Who first, MK, Marth, Fox, Kirby, or Luigi?

 

[Veril]

Matt, B sticking just makes it easier to wavebounce, it doesn't make it any more effective. If you've learned to wavebounce without B Sticking, there's no reason to give up the C stick for it.

That actually isn't true unless you've got fingers so fast you can simultaneously turnaround b and b-reverse... which isn't humanly possible. Recoil diminishes as the gap increases.

I B-stick.

And by the way, the part of the c-stick you have to hit to do a neutral special is much less than 20%, you have to be pretty exact.

20° and 20% are sooooo not the same thing lol

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I can contribute to Marth, Fox, and Luigi. Nahsomuch MK or Kirby.

So, Marth first?

 

[Shell]

Marth it is, gogogo. I'll post my thoughts later.

 

[Mattnumbers]

20° and 20% are sooooo not the same thing lol

lol, sorry about that, I don't know how to get the degrees symbol DX I'm using my moms mac laptop right now.

And stingers I said FULLY retreating fair, as in no DI. I use normal retreating fairs but I don't see the need to be retreating fully.


Anyways, Marth.

Spam PK Fire a lot, he can counter it but if you wavebounce he can't punish you.
When edgeguarding use Dsmash if he is below the stage and send PK thunder if he is above it.
Marth has a lot of range but if you rack up damage with PK Fire and then manage to knock him off the edge you can usually kill him. I'll wait to see what other people have to say before I give my ratio.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Both characters here excel at keeping their opponents at the perfect range away from them, and both base a lot of their game around it. Initially, I thought Lucas would have the advantage because of his projectile and gimping game, but I'm beginning to think the matchup might be 50:50, or 45:55 in Marth's favor.

Lucas can pressure from further away with his projectile, but when close to Marth's Fair wall of doom, it's easily possible for the Marth to dodge the PKF and punish Lucas.

Spacing yourself further away and walling Marth off with PK Fires will probably be the best option, and Marth will ironically have the same problem that most characters have with him: actually getting past his attacks and landing a hit.

After Marth does get in though, Lucas could have a particularly tough time getting Marth off of him since Marth beats him in range and disjointedness. (Also lacks a good GTFO move in the air, so AD and DI or get *****)

Marth is gimpable, but it isn't anything too matchup swaying since Marth has that problem against most of the cast. Marth can hit you out of your PKT2 pretty easily as well, so don't get caught offstage without your second jump (well actually, don't do this ever, but you get my point. >.>)

TL;DR
Marth has more usable range in close quarters than Lucas. Lucas has more long range tactics. Both can be gimped by the other. Lucas has a hard time getting Marth away after he's gotten close.

45:55 Marth, possibly 50:50

 

[Veril]

lol, sorry about that, I don't know how to get the degrees symbol DX I'm using my moms mac laptop right now.

And stingers I said FULLY retreating fair, as in no DI. I use normal retreating fairs but I don't see the need to be retreating fully.


Anyways, Marth.

Spam PK Fire a lot, he can counter it but if you wavebounce he can't punish you.
When edgeguarding use Dsmash if he is below the stage and send PK thunder if he is above it.
Marth has a lot of range but if you rack up damage with PK Fire and then manage to knock him off the edge you can usually kill him. I'll wait to see what other people have to say before I give my ratio.

shift + alt (option) + 8 = ° I use a mac laptop

Pseudo b-sticking is pretty cool if you don't want to change the c-stick. That's how I wavebounce with Jiggs. Set R/Z/L to specials and just time that nearly simultaneously with the c-stick input. It gets way easier with practice and will wavebounce perfectly.


Marth: Generally I don't use Lucas for this matchup cause it seems to be to Marth's advantage. Probably not to the same extent as vBrawl. Wavebounce PK-Fire isn't as good as you make it out to be here. I don't know why you even brought up counter. Marth can actually beat out the pkf... jerk. One thing it does it make it harder for him to play super campy, which is awesome because campy Marths are... ew.

Those ******** grab-releases are gone!

Lucas and Marth can both combo eachother pretty well, and both can edgeguard well. Marth has the melee range, so Lucas has a disadvantage once its too close for projectiles. + N-air still has crap priority. Marth also has way better throws and the crazyness of dancing blade. On the other hand, Lucas has a far superior recovery and safer gimping options.

60:40 Marth.

I actually think Lucas does okay against MK, but I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts on him.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Before grab release Lucas v. Marth was actually in Lucas's favor in vbrawl. Or maybe it was even.

And don't be inpatient Veril we have to finish Marth first

 

[stingers]

So I have some Lucas videos up!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NpXxDrnzuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiDYM6-yRjQ

Thoughts?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Nice vids stingers.

We need to finish up the Marth matchup, we haven't really come to a conclusion yet besides that its fairly close to even but Marth probably has a bit of an advantage. So 55/45 Marth? Anyone else have anything to add to this discussion? What we need is a Marth main.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I have been thinking, and I think we should change Lucas's Psi Magnet. I would say we make it more easily used as an attack by increasing the size of the hitbox and maybe making it linger for a bit, that way we have a unique attack that is slow but covers a big area in front of Lucas.

The problem is we need a tradeoff. Ideally I would have it so that the actual healing abilities of the magnet are worse by decreasing the range at which you can absorb things (no more absorbing behind Lucas). However there could always be other nerfs we could have.

What nerfs would you give to be able to use this move as another tool?

Also, bump, this thread has been inactive for far too long.

 

[Gravyguy101]

I don't think we need a trade off at all, Falcon got another buff... I would like the psi magnet to come out sooner, Its annoying knowing you are getting shot with samus' charge shot and the magnet doesn't come out fast enough even though you pressed it. You are forced to predict rather then react.

We don't need to have trade offs to get small buffs, Lucas is far from over powered.

 

[SSBFalco]

I don't think we need a trade off at all, Falcon got another buff... I would like the psi magnet to come out sooner, Its annoying knowing you are getting shot with samus' charge shot and the magnet doesn't come out fast enough even though you pressed it. You are forced to predict rather then react.

We don't need to have trade offs to get small buffs, Lucas is far from over powered.

I agree with Gravy. I don't think Lucas should have to make a tradeoff for a buff... Lucas seems a little lacking to me. And LOL I can't believe that even Lucas has trouble absorbing with his magnet! You guys should have tried Ness before he got buffed, xD!

I actually suck at using Lucas, but I definately think he could use a little bit of help, not too much.

 

[stingers]

Lucas won't be useful until he gets range in the air. It's much too large of a weakness for an AERIAL CHARACTER to not have any aerial range. It's like making Marth's sword the size of Shiek's Needle.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Guys, don't worry about that, SHeLL has informed me that he's working on better throws. Also we can edit PK Freeze now!

And stingers, I'm talking magnet have a hitbox the size of the actual animation, that would give us a ranged aerial move.

If only we could add a hitbox to the ropesnake.

 

[stingers]

ropesnake having a hitbox is the only thing lucas needs.

 

[Mattnumbers]

ropesnake having a hitbox is the only thing lucas needs.

It's not possible now and it probably won't be possible for a long time (if ever), we can't just make hitboxes.

 

[prOAPC]

sooo, i finally played brawl+
it's really wierd, i don't understand its physics
as for Lucas, i felt like playing with a different character :S short hop fair+jab feels slower, and his jabs doesn't look as good as his normal ones. PK Freeze could be better, not matter if it should be for combos or killing, but it can be better
i don't know what else to say, it was my very first time playing brawl+, and i only played like 4 matches with lucas

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas didn't receive any nerfs from vBrawl so you must be mistaken ProAPC. And SHeLL is working with PK Freeze right now I think.

 

[Revven]

Fair isn't slower, nothing is slower on Lucas, if anything Lucas is faster with his momentum now. You need to play + for longer than 4 matches...

 

[Shell]

Welcome to Brawl+, prOAPC.

His SH Fair is normal speed but has less much less landing lag, Jab is completely untouched, by the way.

 

[prOAPC]

lol that was fast
as i said before, it was my first time, and i'm not used to physics of brawl+.
i'm used to use an aerial everytime i get hit, to stop momentum
what i wanted to say about fair, is that in vbrawl, every time my opponent shields my fair, i start to jab as soon as i can, so i don't get grabbed, it didn't work in brawl+
nair to nair looks good, but it's way faster, so i have to get used to the timing
i don't like wavebouncing anymore, it push lucas too far, and totally loses it purpose, zoning and spacing. It works for recovery, though
i had problems woth full hop dair, in vbrawl i press jump and attack at the same time, so i have enough time to jump again after the move ends, or to footstool the opponent or whatever, when i tried that in brawl+ it ended in an empty full jump
i think most of my problems are because of the buffer system, when i played with other characters, it looked like i have to wait for the move to finish so i can input another action. For example, i couldn't short hop double fair with Marth :S

 

[stingers]

did you set your buffer to 100? lol that would explain all of your problems.

 

[Shell]

I offered to set the momentum back to the way that it was, but most people (or at least the most vocal ) seemed to prefer the recovery boost from wavebouncing in exchange for it being a little bit more difficult to use on stage. Play with it for a while and let me know your thoughts then.

 

[stingers]

his momentum is fine

 

[PKNintendo]

Lucas won't be useful until he gets range in the air. It's much too large of a weakness for an AERIAL CHARACTER to not have any aerial range. It's like making Marth's sword the size of Shiek's Needle.

Woah woah woah.

Looks like I got owned. I've always thought Lucas was a balance between aerial and ground.

 

[stingers]

his tilts are decent and his smashes are good for killing. just like marth. but he's an aerial character, most definitely.

 

[prOAPC]

i don't know, i just downloaded a premade sd package, version 4.1