A Lucas+ Primer & Discussion: NOW DISCUSSING MARF MATCHUP

[Mattnumbers]

Does Lucas's dtilt infinite (not really infinite but works until edge) still work in Brawl+? If it does is it easier? Harder?

Also now that you have your wii back Veril you should make a Lucas AT video.

I'm still waiting for the hackers to get around menu 4.0 so I sadly do not have Brawl+ yet, but I will most definitely get it asap.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Does Lucas's dtilt infinite (not really infinite but works until edge) still work in Brawl+? If it does is it easier? Harder?

I'm still waiting for the hackers to get around menu 4.0 so I sadly do not have Brawl+ yet, but I will most definitely get it asap.

Dtilt Lock does not work since there are no jablocks in brawl+. they'll get right up

and check the most recent posts on this thread for menu 4.0 HBC http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229696

 

[Shell]

Updated first post with new picture and updated changes. I'll add a more detailed combo list as it develops, possibly tomorrow.

 

[ToxiCrow]

regarding throws: dthrow leads to Uair, Dair and Nair

 

[Veril]

regarding throws: dthrow leads to Uair, Dair and Nair

d-throw can also lead to up-tilt and up-angled f-tilt (low %).

N-air doesn't even need to be autocanceled to combo btw, landing lag is so low it hardly even matters. When I tested n-air to up-tilt, I want to stress that I never autocanceled it and it still worked on the whole cast to very high%.

 

[Shell]

It's generally best not to AC the Nair to avoid the final combo-kiling hit unless you're pressuring a shield.

I'm about to go play but here's something to consider: I feel like Lucas has two types of combos, horizontal and vertical. Vertical combos are comprised of Nair, Dair, Bair (spike), utilt, perhaps a mid-air Uair. Horizontal combos consist of Fairs, dash attacks, SHFFL'd Uairs, maybe Bairs (non-spike). Of course, vertical combos can lead into horizontal combos and vice versa.

Just something I was thinking about. I'll add more later today.

 

[Veril]

I don't entirely see the logic to that. If nothing else its very simplistic. I look at it as there are moves that set up for juggling or FH aerials, moves that pseudo-WoP (really in my mind that's any horizontal knockback), moves that setup for a tech-chase, moves that setup a KO, and anything that leads into a grab.

Yeah... those are basically the categories I use. That and combos into rest. That s*** is a class all by itself

 

[ToxiCrow]

d-throw can also lead to up-tilt and up-angled f-tilt (low %).

N-air doesn't even need to be autocanceled to combo btw, landing lag is so low it hardly even matters. When I tested n-air to up-tilt, I want to stress that I never autocanceled it and it still worked on the whole cast to very high%.

u sure about Dthrow to Uptilt Veril?

and so true about Nair. u can even approach with Fair now because of ALR.
i love approaching with RAR Uair because its such an awesome juggling move and can set u up for a bunch of stuff. i once did Uair-Uair-Bair spike. it was sexy<3

and i put a request in on the Nightly Build thread for Lucas. i asked for us not to go helpless after PKfreeze. its not like it helped his recovery (tho u get very little momentum if u wavebounce it) . Zelda can use her sideB and not go helpless and Ness can use his UpB. It'd be fair for use not to go helpless after PKFreeze

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think PK Freeze should also be buffed in some way, as it is a pretty useless move as of now. (I posted this on the nightly builds thread too)

sorry about mentioning buffs I know its against the rules.

 

[ToxiCrow]

I think PK Freeze should also be buffed in some way, as it is a pretty useless move as of now. (I posted this on the nightly builds thread too)

sorry about mentioning buffs I know its against the rules.

i beat you to it you dirty girl <3

mentioning buffs- lol look at the Link+ thread

 

[shanus]

Well Link needed it ToxiCrow

 

[ToxiCrow]

Well Link needed it ToxiCrow

*huggles*

and i read Matt's post wrong: PKfreeze is very very very situational. i use it for pressure off-stage to force an airdodge. dont bother hitting them unless they have high%'s
anyway, can this thread get a more bad-ace name?

 

[Mattnumbers]

*huggles*

and i read Matt's post wrong: PKfreeze is very very very situational. i use it for pressure off-stage to force an airdodge. dont bother hitting them unless they have high%'s
anyway, can this thread get a more bad-ace name?

But the problem is that PKT1 can pressure off stage much better than PK Freeze so there's rarely a reason to use it. You can't even go out and attack them after freezing them (if you manage to) as they can attack as soon as they break free. I know Lucas is already pretty good but I don't think any character should have a useless special.

 

[ToxiCrow]

But the problem is that PKT1 can pressure off stage much better than PK Freeze so there's rarely a reason to use it. You can't even go out and attack them after freezing them (if you manage to) as they can attack as soon as they break free. I know Lucas is already pretty good but I don't think any character should have a useless special.

matt: PKT1 is better at gimping. i said i use PKFreeze to force an airdodge. they cant move while in the airdodge animaition and it makes them drop down.

i dont hit with it because it'll help out their recovery.
and like i said, it is very very very situational. is it terrible? yes it is. useless? not quite.

if they make it so that u dont go helpless after using it, then u can use it to help u get back on stage (kind of like Zelda can now use her sideB to get back on)

 

[ToxiCrow]

sorry for the double post:

can we make PKT1 like Ness's in that in comes back again? if we arent going to get the "PKFreeze=No Helpless" i'd like the NoHelplessPKT1
he doesnt really need it

d-throw can also lead to up-tilt

i think this only works on fast fallers

 

[Mattnumbers]

sorry for the double post:

can we make PKT1 like Ness's in that in comes back again? if we arent going to get the "PKFreeze=No Helpless" i'd like the NoHelplessPKT1


i think this only works on fast fallers

I don't think Lucas needs it like ness does, Lucas's recovery is already awesome, although it would stop cheap deaths on Yoshi's from ghost platforms.

 

[Veril]

PKFreeze is useless. Its cool when it works, like with stage spikes, and this gives it the illusion of not being complete s***.

Its s***. There's always a better option.

Make it so that it doesn't cause the helpless state and it would be... ok. At least in terms of b-sticking it would be great.

Lucas's Jab x2 canceled is still his best move. You have a ton of combos out of it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

PKFreeze is useless. Its cool when it works, like with stage spikes, and this gives it the illusion of not being complete s***.

Its s***. There's always a better option.

Make it so that it doesn't cause the helpless state and it would be... ok. At least in terms of b-sticking it would be great

Yeah me and Toxicow brought that up on the nightly thread and they yelled at us : \

 

[ToxiCrow]

they didnt really yell at us =]

AND THERE IS NO LONGER A NEED FOR BSTICKING.
in vbrawl, the point of bsticking was for zoning with wavebounced PKfires and Magnet Pulling. manual wavebounce is even easier in B+ than it was in vbrawl, and Lucas's aerials are not worth the sacrifice. it took me until 2 days ago to realize how fast he is and how well his aerials combo into eachother. he's such a great character now

i was playing with the Buffer at 0, and i think he plays best at this setting. you'll Zap Jump at every attempt you make and i can shffl better

trust me on this one guys: give up bsticking and set ur buffer at 0. now go experiment.

Veril- we gotta do some wifi soon

 

[Mattnumbers]

they didnt really yell at us =]

AND THERE IS NO LONGER A NEED FOR BSTICKING.
manual wavebounce is even easier than it was in vbrawl, and Lucas's aerials are not worth the sacrifice. it took me until 2 days to realize how fast he is.
i was playing with the Buffer at 0, and i think he plays best at this setting. you'll Zap Jump at every attempt.
trust me on this one guys: give up bsticking and set ur buffer at 0. now go experiment.

Veril- we gotta do some wifi soon

Hmmm I forget, how exactly do you wavebounce normally?

 

[ToxiCrow]

Hmmm I forget, how exactly do you wavebounce normally?

jump in one direction and quickly shoot ur PKFire in the other. you'll get the same boost. you can magnet pull right after.

the new title for this thread should be:

"Lucas+ : Pedophiles Beware"

for kill moves: dont forget Uair and ftilt. i also find it strange that u mention Fair but didnt mention upsmash at all.
and dthrow is more reliable than upthrow is for KOing. even in vbrawl upthrow was garbage
Uair is good for a bunch of stuff actually. FFUair's are great for approaching and they're great for juggling.

 

[Veril]

they didnt really yell at us =]

AND THERE IS NO LONGER A NEED FOR BSTICKING.
in vbrawl, the point of bsticking was for zoning with wavebounced PKfires and Magnet Pulling. manual wavebounce is even easier in B+ than it was in vbrawl, and Lucas's aerials are not worth the sacrifice. it took me until 2 days to realize how fast he is and how well his aerials combo into eachother. he's such a great character now

i was playing with the Buffer at 0, and i think he plays best at this setting. you'll Zap Jump at every attempt you make and i can shffl better

trust me on this one guys: give up bsticking and set ur buffer at 0. now go experiment.

Veril- we gotta do some wifi soon

Oh, its on! Look, don't hate on b-sticking. I liked to b-stick because of the incredible recovery techniques that are much easier to pull off with it. Now that momentum is increased, the recoil is as well. There's a lot more to b-sticking than just wavebouncing btw.

I don't care enough to argue this or buffering atm. I'll get back to it though. Needless to say I disagree pretty strongly with both statements.

Hmmm I forget, how exactly do you wavebounce normally?

What toxicrow told you was almost right. That was how you do a wavelanding pkf (I didn't name it...). Wavebouncing is moving forward, shooting pkf backwards and immediately b-reversing the pkf.

B-sticking > manual wavebouncing.

the new title for this thread should be:

"Lucas+ : Pedophiles Beware"

Yes. This is so true.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Veril: i guess i'm not too great at explaining things. i just told him what works for me
its not that i'm hating on Bsticking. its just that his aerials are soo good, i wouldnt want to sacrifice them for wavebounce/wavezap/zapjump/etc.
but Bsticking, imo, was more important in vbrawl than it is in B+
Bsticking>manual wavebounce? by that i guess u mean its faster/easier

i guess we can hold off on the buffering. its all about prefrence anyway

Oh, its on! .

you bet it is
i love discussion

 

[Mattnumbers]

No, I think the title should be "Lucas+: Reverse Pedophile"

 

[Veril]

Bsticking>manual wavebounce? by that i guess u mean its faster/easier

Not exactly. Its actually more effective. The length of the bounce depends on how fast you do the turnaround and the reversal. B-sticking makes both instantaneous. Its not humanly possible to do that manually.

And yeah, its way easier. I'd definitely at least recommend learning to pseudo b-stick.

i guess we can hold off on the buffering. its all about prefrence anyway

Rising aerials... Lagless FH Wavebounced PKF...

You need to have a buffer window. I like the 4-frame window personally.

No, I think the title should be "Lucas+: Reverse Pedophile"

What does that mean? Actually, I don't want to know.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Rising aerials... Lagless FH Wavebounced PKF...

You need to have a buffer window. I like the 4-frame window personally

i actually tried 3-frames, and i will admit, its much easier to do Rising-Dairs than it is on 0.

props Veril

 

[Veril]

i actually tried 3-frames, and i will admit, its much easier to do Rising-Dairs than it is on 0.

props Veril

That ain't a Falco icon!?

Yeah, I'd probably recommend a 2-6 frame buffer for Lucas players. I use 4 cause it works well with everyone I play.

 

[ToxiCrow]

That ain't a Falco icon!?

Yeah, I'd probably recommend a 2-6 frame buffer for Lucas players. I use 4 cause it works well with everyone I play.

lol yes its a Falco icon. i think he's going to be my main. Jiggs and Lucas will be secondaries

we need to get some more videos in this thread

 

[Veril]

lol yes its a Falco icon. i think he's going to be my main. Jiggs and Lucas will be secondaries

we need to get some more videos in this thread

Traitor!

I need some Falco+ experience... bad. Can't chainthrow me b****! The fact that I know the d-throw > rest % window helps me a good deal now. Just got those #s yesterday.

When could you play? We should get some wifi Lucas+ friendlies posted here.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Traitor!

I need some Falco+ experience... bad. Can't chainthrow me b****! The fact that I know the d-throw > rest % window helps me a good deal now. Just got those #s yesterday.

When could you play? We should get some wifi Lucas+ friendlies posted here.

NO U

i need some Everyone experience; especially with Lucas

i can probably play later on tonight. are you using the latest set??
if anyone would like to join us, you'll be more than welcome

here's a Lucas+ video from Apex.
its a 2v2 w/ Ness as the partner : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHslb5WtUPM&feature=channel

 

[Veril]

NO U

i need some Everyone experience; especially with Lucas

i can probably play later on tonight. are you using the latest set??
if anyone would like to join us, you'll be more than welcome

here's a Lucas+ video from Apex.
its a 2v2 w/ Ness as the partner : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHslb5WtUPM&feature=channel

Lets do this thang!

I'm terrible at Lucas dittos so I might (will) be a jerk and CP if I get *****.

I believe I'm using the latest plussery update unless it changed in the last 3 nights.

 

[DanGR]

I found a good use for upair you could include.

SHFFed upairs, as I've noticed, work very well for juggling near ground level. (Ex. Run->SHFFupair->follow DI->SHFFupair->etc.) I managed to chain it about 3-4 times and then string that into a full hopped dair spike->fsmash for the kill! It was too sexy. Lucas is too good.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So I finally got Brawl+ working (traded wii's with a friend who doesn't have internet so no update), and Lucas feels amazing. I love the extra momentum, please don't remove it. His Nair feels better to hit people with for some reason. I love the pop-up of dash attack, and upsmash is much more usable now.

 

[ToxiCrow]

hey Shell, did u use Lucas at BtL??

 

[Shell]

Yeah, a little bit. Falco and Falcon were working for me a bit better that day. I need to work on fighting Pits with Lucas. It seemed like a good idea.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Hey SHeLL, when are you going to update the OP?

Anyone have any good Lucas combo's to practice?

 

[CloneHat]

Has anyone tried a SH down B approach? You glide across the stage; it isn't reliable, but it's MINDGAMEY!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Has anyone tried a SH down B approach? You glide across the stage; it isn't reliable, but it's MINDGAMEY!

I love it : ) but it is pretty unreliable ha, plus you can fake them out if you b-stick it so you go backwards.

 

[Sudai]

Have you thought about using that as a surprise gimp off stage? A few characters don't have the range to out space it and it could be nice for surprise gimps.

 

[ToxiCrow]

the trajectory of PSIm is great. it semi-spikes and its ok against characters with predictable recovery.

its a terrible approach tho. once in awhile its ok. but as was said before, do NOT rely on it (especially since Lucas' has better approach options)