CloneHat
Smash Champion
I like to float off and use it on spacies.
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A Lucas+ Primer & Discussion: NOW DISCUSSING MARF MATCHUP
- Thread starter Shell
- Start date
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Yeah it semispikes so its great for an unexpected gimp. you can also drop off the ledge and do a turn around psimagnet for a good way to surprise people.
olsonpm
Smash Cadet
I've been maining lucas ever since i first got brawl. I've been following the b+ code updates, but not religiously. This forum really got me thinking more about his options though. Mainly his Uair and Nair as an aproach to get behind the enemy. Three things I don't get though after watching the videos though...
- Why people don't use pkf way more as a spacing option. It works really well and forces the opponent to approach you.
- When recovering, why not pause in the air with downB? It gives you so much time to see the field, and get a glimpse at what your opponent is setting up.
- (Not lucas specific) but why don't people air dodge as an approach? I do that every once in a while and catch them off guard for a free Utilt -> w/e i feel like combo. I don't see anyone use this in any videos I see.
I absolutely love playing brawl, but the lack of having my own car, and the lack of local competition slows that down a bit. Anyway, I'm sure there are decent answers to my questions, so don't assume them as a condescending remark. I'm definitely here to learn ; )
- Why people don't use pkf way more as a spacing option. It works really well and forces the opponent to approach you.
- When recovering, why not pause in the air with downB? It gives you so much time to see the field, and get a glimpse at what your opponent is setting up.
- (Not lucas specific) but why don't people air dodge as an approach? I do that every once in a while and catch them off guard for a free Utilt -> w/e i feel like combo. I don't see anyone use this in any videos I see.
I absolutely love playing brawl, but the lack of having my own car, and the lack of local competition slows that down a bit. Anyway, I'm sure there are decent answers to my questions, so don't assume them as a condescending remark. I'm definitely here to learn ; )
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I do all of that (except the AD approach thing). I've found that without good DI you can carry an opponent (depending on weight and size) across a flat stage with PKF.
I've been using Bair more and more lately as well.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Lucas is absolutely incredible in Brawl+.
He pressures so well with Nair and has a great spacing game with PK Thunder. PK Fire would be a lot more useful if it was sped up a bit, but all well.
He pressures so well with Nair and has a great spacing game with PK Thunder. PK Fire would be a lot more useful if it was sped up a bit, but all well.
Gravyguy101
Smash Cadet
I find PsiMagnet most useful as a specific combo finisher, remember you can hold the move so when people instinctly airdoge you can punish them usually for a kill. If can be done directly out of a dash do a falling fair > land >dash psiMagnet actually hits quite often... String together as necessary.
Cross-ups are incredible useful as well if you can pull them off. Nair (through your opponent) land on the other side and cancel before the last hit, then just Smash with the sitck before they can land :D
Cross-ups are incredible useful as well if you can pull them off. Nair (through your opponent) land on the other side and cancel before the last hit, then just Smash with the sitck before they can land :D
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
SHeLL, I'm going to start matchups if that's ok.
SO, I was thinking we should start our matchup discussion with a regularly used character, and I have chosen.....
Captain Falcon
Captain Falcon is MUCH better in Brawl+, and although debatably overrated, he is still a good character.
Lucas Pro's:
PK fire is good at keeping Falcon at bay
Very easy to combo Falcon
Falcon is easy to edgeguard (just make sure you hit with the second or third hitbox of downB unless he is almost directly below you)
Lucas has many (slightly) disjointed hitboxes that out-prioritize falcon.
Captain Falcon Pro's
Lucas does not have a good combo breaker so he must rely on DI
Lucas is easy to knee while using PKT2
Although Lucas has some disjointed hitboxes he still has short range on his non-projectiles
Post the the advantage/disadvantage in ratio form and give me any Pro's for either side I missed (I'm sure there are more)
SO, I was thinking we should start our matchup discussion with a regularly used character, and I have chosen.....
Captain Falcon
Captain Falcon is MUCH better in Brawl+, and although debatably overrated, he is still a good character.
Lucas Pro's:
PK fire is good at keeping Falcon at bay
Very easy to combo Falcon
Falcon is easy to edgeguard (just make sure you hit with the second or third hitbox of downB unless he is almost directly below you)
Lucas has many (slightly) disjointed hitboxes that out-prioritize falcon.
Captain Falcon Pro's
Lucas does not have a good combo breaker so he must rely on DI
Lucas is easy to knee while using PKT2
Although Lucas has some disjointed hitboxes he still has short range on his non-projectiles
Post the the advantage/disadvantage in ratio form and give me any Pro's for either side I missed (I'm sure there are more)
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I think this match is in Lucas's favor.
Right off the bat edgeguarding comes to mind. Lucas was made to dominate Falcon's recovery. The easiest way to stop Falcon's up-b is with a d-smash. The move's large hitboxes, especially on the second and third hit, will stop any attempts at sweetspotting and actually kill at a pretty moderate percent. Also, PKT2 edgeguard is almost unfair against Falcon. Bair's a little tricky since it usually means you have to get in humping range, SH'd dair to D-smash against MC might work better near the ledge. If he tries to recover high, intercept with PK Fire, Fair, U-smash, or PKT2. Once you get this guy off he should be dead.
Conversely, Falcon isn't particularly adept at guarding Lucas. If you Zap jump and recover high, using Magnet to either pull or just mind-game your fall speed, you'll be okay. Tether also works pretty well. Falcon will catch you if you land with any lag from PKT2, though, so steer away from that (nothing new).
As far as combos go, as Falcon is a FFer, he's very susceptible to Lucas's game. Pillar all day, SHFFL'd uairs work extra well. Although Lucas doesn't have any great combo breakers, he's a small target with moderate gravity. Lucas's Dair can actually outprioritize most of Falcon's attacks from the bottom, so if he's coming in for a U-air juggle from below, let him have it.
For killing, avoid the u-smash most of the time, of course (as much as I love it). It doesn't kill Falcon until absurd percents, by which point the stick would be much safer and more effective anyways. Land a stick at 60-70% depending on where you are on the stage and you're already setting up for a super-effective edgeguard. Lastly, PK Fire spam works pretty well at shutting down much of Falcon's game if all else fails.
60/40 Lucas.
Right off the bat edgeguarding comes to mind. Lucas was made to dominate Falcon's recovery. The easiest way to stop Falcon's up-b is with a d-smash. The move's large hitboxes, especially on the second and third hit, will stop any attempts at sweetspotting and actually kill at a pretty moderate percent. Also, PKT2 edgeguard is almost unfair against Falcon. Bair's a little tricky since it usually means you have to get in humping range, SH'd dair to D-smash against MC might work better near the ledge. If he tries to recover high, intercept with PK Fire, Fair, U-smash, or PKT2. Once you get this guy off he should be dead.
Conversely, Falcon isn't particularly adept at guarding Lucas. If you Zap jump and recover high, using Magnet to either pull or just mind-game your fall speed, you'll be okay. Tether also works pretty well. Falcon will catch you if you land with any lag from PKT2, though, so steer away from that (nothing new).
As far as combos go, as Falcon is a FFer, he's very susceptible to Lucas's game. Pillar all day, SHFFL'd uairs work extra well. Although Lucas doesn't have any great combo breakers, he's a small target with moderate gravity. Lucas's Dair can actually outprioritize most of Falcon's attacks from the bottom, so if he's coming in for a U-air juggle from below, let him have it.
For killing, avoid the u-smash most of the time, of course (as much as I love it). It doesn't kill Falcon until absurd percents, by which point the stick would be much safer and more effective anyways. Land a stick at 60-70% depending on where you are on the stage and you're already setting up for a super-effective edgeguard. Lastly, PK Fire spam works pretty well at shutting down much of Falcon's game if all else fails.
60/40 Lucas.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I would also say the matchup is 60:40 in Lucas's favor, but I have noticed that a lot of the time if falcon recovers above the edge he will go right through your Dsmash and his UpB will connect, it happened to me a couple times yesterday. I imagine that the last hitbox and maybe the second are big enough though. If he is going mostly up from below the stage Dsmash will always hit him.
EDIT: after some consideration, I have decided to change my opinion to 70:30
EDIT: after some consideration, I have decided to change my opinion to 70:30
stingers
Smash Obsessed
To be honest, Lucas absolutely ***** this matchup. Falcon is a decent character, but some of his horrible traits are carried over from vBrawl that Lucas is very good at taking advantage of, namely a predictable recovery and bad priority.
Because Lucas has a projectile, no different from any other Smash Game, Falcon will want to approach throughout the match to make sure you can't raise his damage up with projectiles. Which will mean he'll be approaching with one of two moves: Nair, or Side B. Every other move Falcon has isn't useful as an approach move, and if they try to approach with them you should be able to punish them easily. Nair will be the main move you'll see a Falcon try to approach with, because Side B can be dodged with just about anything and will be punished unless they combo into it with an Nair or something
.
To deal with Nair, the only thing you seriously have to do is Nair in retaliation. Your nair's priority just kills his, so he'll just hit the electricity with his foot outstretched and take damage, while you can proceed to follow up with one of our many Nair combos. It's insane how little Falcon can really do.
Space with PK Fire, edgeguard with PK Thunder (you'll **** him with it assuming you use it properly because his recovery is so one dimensional, the most he can hope to do is Raptor Boost it and hope to get a boost off of it, which is both incredibly dangerous and not always a valid option). You can really just stand by the edge, laugh when he tries to approach you, Grab him, bthrow, get an early kill.
If you can't manage to do that, then Nair to Bat or Dair to Bat or whatever you want into Bat is preferred. If you think the Falcon will try to approach over your head, then you can go for a Usmash if you really want, but it's risky because if you miss, you will get comboed. It's hard for Falcon to get his combos set up, but once he does, watch the **** out.
75/25 Lucas.
Because Lucas has a projectile, no different from any other Smash Game, Falcon will want to approach throughout the match to make sure you can't raise his damage up with projectiles. Which will mean he'll be approaching with one of two moves: Nair, or Side B. Every other move Falcon has isn't useful as an approach move, and if they try to approach with them you should be able to punish them easily. Nair will be the main move you'll see a Falcon try to approach with, because Side B can be dodged with just about anything and will be punished unless they combo into it with an Nair or something
.To deal with Nair, the only thing you seriously have to do is Nair in retaliation. Your nair's priority just kills his, so he'll just hit the electricity with his foot outstretched and take damage, while you can proceed to follow up with one of our many Nair combos. It's insane how little Falcon can really do.
Space with PK Fire, edgeguard with PK Thunder (you'll **** him with it assuming you use it properly because his recovery is so one dimensional, the most he can hope to do is Raptor Boost it and hope to get a boost off of it, which is both incredibly dangerous and not always a valid option). You can really just stand by the edge, laugh when he tries to approach you, Grab him, bthrow, get an early kill.
If you can't manage to do that, then Nair to Bat or Dair to Bat or whatever you want into Bat is preferred. If you think the Falcon will try to approach over your head, then you can go for a Usmash if you really want, but it's risky because if you miss, you will get comboed. It's hard for Falcon to get his combos set up, but once he does, watch the **** out.
75/25 Lucas.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I see your points Stingers, but I still think the matchup isn't THAT one sided. When falcon DOES get to you, he can cause some real damage. But you are right about how he should never really even get to you in the first place.........I'll go find some Falcon mains and see what they have to say.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Bowser has combos on Shiek in Melee...
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Bowser has combos on Shiek in Melee...
.........I see what you did there
stingers
Smash Obsessed
It's alright...By the way, the Yoshi player is "Lord Karn". Feel free to do with that information whatever you want. I don't know if he has any B+ vids on youtube, but if he does they're almost certainly old as hell lol
I'm going to have to agree more with stingers on this one right now. Lucas destroys Falcon with his disjointed, lagless aerials, quick killers, and beastly edgeguarding.
If I'm not mistaken, Lucas has an AD longer than the rest of the cast (along with Ness and Yoshi), no? If so, there's his combo breaker.
The only threat I can see here is being offstage with no second jump. Then we'll have to rely on PKT2 to recover with, and Falcon can punish from just about anywhere on the stage with his speed if we don't sweetspot.
70/30 Lucas
If I'm not mistaken, Lucas has an AD longer than the rest of the cast (along with Ness and Yoshi), no? If so, there's his combo breaker.
The only threat I can see here is being offstage with no second jump. Then we'll have to rely on PKT2 to recover with, and Falcon can punish from just about anywhere on the stage with his speed if we don't sweetspot.
70/30 Lucas
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Air dodging isn't as useful in Brawl+ (for breaking combos, anyway) because of hitstun, but I think it's pretty long, yeah. I don't have the frame data on hand but it seems longer 
.
If you're offstage with no second jump you're dead against half the cast anyway, our recovery is terrible because it's so **** easy to intercept and attempted sweetspots can literally result in death. It's absolutely idiotic that you should be punished for aiming your PK thunder so perfectly you hit the edge just right but bounce off and die anyway, but I assume that'll be fixed sooner or later.
.If you're offstage with no second jump you're dead against half the cast anyway, our recovery is terrible because it's so **** easy to intercept and attempted sweetspots can literally result in death. It's absolutely idiotic that you should be punished for aiming your PK thunder so perfectly you hit the edge just right but bounce off and die anyway, but I assume that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Well no, but it's just as good at getting out of combos as a combo breaking hit. Except Luigi's nair, of course.
Yeah, though the distance Lucas gets off of his PKT2 is pretty nice. Still easy to intercept, but at least it's got one upside.
On another note, aiming PKT2 downward and ASLing is hilarious.
Yeah, though the distance Lucas gets off of his PKT2 is pretty nice. Still easy to intercept, but at least it's got one upside.
On another note, aiming PKT2 downward and ASLing is hilarious.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Airdodging just leaves yourself open to juggles...D:
Juggles are bad.
Juggles are bad.
Not if Captain Momentum goes for an aerial out of a dash and flies right past you after your AD. >.>
It's by no means a "get out of combo free" card, but if his AD is still longer, then it could be useful down the line.
It's by no means a "get out of combo free" card, but if his AD is still longer, then it could be useful down the line.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
It would be nice to have some C. Falcon mains weigh in on this, although they will probably come to about the same conclusion. So far the ratings are (After thinking about it for a day I'm going to have to agree that it is more than 60:40 but I still don't think its quite as steep as stingers thinks, honestly I didn't even know that our nair could outprioritize his nair, I never would have thought that it would):
SHeLL: 60:40
Matt2358: 70:30
Tatsuman: 70:30
Stingers: 75:25
Once we get at least one C. Falcon main in here I would say we can put up whatever ratio we can agree on.
SHeLL: 60:40
Matt2358: 70:30
Tatsuman: 70:30
Stingers: 75:25
Once we get at least one C. Falcon main in here I would say we can put up whatever ratio we can agree on.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
I'd say about 70:30 for the matchup. Lucas is hard to kill/knee do to his small size, hard to combo into much but uair due to his lightness, and dsmash destroys Falcon's up B.
Gravyguy101
Smash Cadet
Lucas is powerful against Falcon mainly because of Falcons horrnedus recoveries but I think a lot you are discounting Falcon a little to much, While I rarely have trouble dealing with Falcons I still feel this match up is a 60:40 Lucas.
Falcon is really susceptable to Lucas Up-B and DSmash while off the stage, but you still have to get his keister off the stage first. I find the easiest was to do this is PK-Fire spam, It stops Falcon's approaches and eventually the falcon will miss the tech. As soon the PK fire hit, run up but stop short of his tech roll range. The only safe move the falcon has is to roll backwards, but this put him toward the edge of the stage, one good fair will get him off, or simliar move.
Regardless though don't be careless falcon has alot of weapons at his disposal,
60:40 Lucas
Falcon is really susceptable to Lucas Up-B and DSmash while off the stage, but you still have to get his keister off the stage first. I find the easiest was to do this is PK-Fire spam, It stops Falcon's approaches and eventually the falcon will miss the tech. As soon the PK fire hit, run up but stop short of his tech roll range. The only safe move the falcon has is to roll backwards, but this put him toward the edge of the stage, one good fair will get him off, or simliar move.
Regardless though don't be careless falcon has alot of weapons at his disposal,
60:40 Lucas
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I think at this point it is safe enough to move on to the next character. Even in light of gravyguys post I think we agree on about 70:30? Lets see
SHeLL: 60:40
Gravyguy: 60:40
Matt2358: 70:30
Tatsuman: 70:30
Clonehat: 70:30
Stingers: 75:25
If a CF main comes in and tells us something we hadn't thought of we can always change it.
Anyways, any ideas on the next character? I was thinking Sheik, any objections to that?
SHeLL: 60:40
Gravyguy: 60:40
Matt2358: 70:30
Tatsuman: 70:30
Clonehat: 70:30
Stingers: 75:25
If a CF main comes in and tells us something we hadn't thought of we can always change it.
Anyways, any ideas on the next character? I was thinking Sheik, any objections to that?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
We should do ZSS next, she's pretty evil
D
Deleted member
Guest
as CF player, I don't agree on 70:30
yes lucas has the advantage, but he can projectile spam on CF. first of all because his PK fire doesn't trvel that far (other 2 projectiles later) and falcon kick outprioritizes it, which also sets up for a combo.
don't bother with using PK freeze or PKT over longer distances, you will get punished (grab an raptor boost can easily be used in a situation like this, and are 2 of CFs better combo starters).
combos. CF can hit for 40-60% if your DI isn't very good.
the knee can kill lucas at 50-65% depending on the stage and position, be carefull at approaching CF.
nair also outspaces a lot of moves.
the main problem CF will face is recovering. this has always been his downside, and looking at the options lucas has he is pretty screwed. don't think however that CF will let you recover easily either. even though his recovery is bad, he can actually recover pretty far, almost from offscreen on FD, given that he is not absurdly low. this allows him to place some very far knees/Nairs.
I would put it at 55:45 or 60:40 in favor of lucas
yes lucas has the advantage, but he can projectile spam on CF. first of all because his PK fire doesn't trvel that far (other 2 projectiles later) and falcon kick outprioritizes it, which also sets up for a combo.
don't bother with using PK freeze or PKT over longer distances, you will get punished (grab an raptor boost can easily be used in a situation like this, and are 2 of CFs better combo starters).
combos. CF can hit for 40-60% if your DI isn't very good.
the knee can kill lucas at 50-65% depending on the stage and position, be carefull at approaching CF.
nair also outspaces a lot of moves.
the main problem CF will face is recovering. this has always been his downside, and looking at the options lucas has he is pretty screwed. don't think however that CF will let you recover easily either. even though his recovery is bad, he can actually recover pretty far, almost from offscreen on FD, given that he is not absurdly low. this allows him to place some very far knees/Nairs.
I would put it at 55:45 or 60:40 in favor of lucas
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
The main problem I have with this post is that you include things that are based on if the Lucas player is good or not. Matchups should be based on who, at the top of their metagame, would have an advantage.
Also Falcon Kick is easy to punish just by dodging it, after that you can just punish falcon and reset your positions.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you can't dodge a falcon kick if you are in the lag of PK fire. falcon kick is a lot faster than people think, and is a very unexpected choice of move (ok now it isn't anymore 
)
also the note on combos might be small but even with good DI I can get in 40% (gvine that you are at 25% max when I start)
)also the note on combos might be small but even with good DI I can get in 40% (gvine that you are at 25% max when I start)
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I do agree that Falcon can really hurt you if he gets to you, but I still think that it is easy to avoid falcon kick (just don't roll backwards DX), especially if you're wavebouncing your PK fires
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol you're using falcon kick as your basis for your argument? please...
tbqh i doubt you have much good competition in the netherlands so you probably don't realize how one sided the matchup is. :/
tbqh i doubt you have much good competition in the netherlands so you probably don't realize how one sided the matchup is. :/
No reason to bring up region. It has no relevance. xP
But quite honestly, wavebounce or retreat with your PK Fires and they are practically unpunishable if they don't completely miss.
Regardless, our numbers so far are:
PK: 55:45/60:40
Gravyguy101: 60:40
SHeLL: 60:40
Tatsuman: 70:30
Matt: 70:30
Clonehat: 70:30
stingers: 75:25
If we had a few more CF players to offset our amount of Lucas players, I'd call this one right now at about 70:30, or 65:35.
But quite honestly, wavebounce or retreat with your PK Fires and they are practically unpunishable if they don't completely miss.
Regardless, our numbers so far are:
PK: 55:45/60:40
Gravyguy101: 60:40
SHeLL: 60:40
Tatsuman: 70:30
Matt: 70:30
Clonehat: 70:30
stingers: 75:25
If we had a few more CF players to offset our amount of Lucas players, I'd call this one right now at about 70:30, or 65:35.
Gravyguy101
Smash Cadet
Thats messed up... apparently my numbers don't count -_-
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Even if we add yours in, there's still a 65 average. It's all good.
Well, now I feel dumb. D:
*edit*
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*edit*
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D
Deleted member
Guest
may I remind you that the netherlands have the biggest Brawl scene of europe and I live in amsterdam?
and I don't use it a basis of my argument, I just mentioned that it can kick straight through the PK fire and hir lucas. falcon kick is very underused and you can't tell me that a lucas player will expect he has to dodge after he shot a PK fire at falcon.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
You can usually only dodge a move you're expecting, and if you're not expecting a Falcon Kick, it's VERY difficult to dodge by reflex alone.
That's really a high risk move if Lucas is doing retreating wavebounced PK Fires though. Assuming you plow through his PKF, the Falcon Kick's hitbox is still crappy and the angle is less than favorable.
The end of the kick conveniently enough has plenty of lag, so unless Lucas hit an edge or didn't properly space, you're eating either an fsmash or if he's feeling like a ****, another PK Fire.
Don't get me wrong, it could work as a mindgame, but after two or three hits from a Falcon Kick, the Lucas player is going to start spacing better and expecting it if he's any good at all. Definitely not anything that would skew the matchup to anything beyond 65:35 in my opinion.
The end of the kick conveniently enough has plenty of lag, so unless Lucas hit an edge or didn't properly space, you're eating either an fsmash or if he's feeling like a ****, another PK Fire.
Don't get me wrong, it could work as a mindgame, but after two or three hits from a Falcon Kick, the Lucas player is going to start spacing better and expecting it if he's any good at all. Definitely not anything that would skew the matchup to anything beyond 65:35 in my opinion.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Remember, these matchups are two top level players playing their characters to the top of their abilities. Plus what Tatsuman said is true, soon you would learn to dodge it anyways, or even after you had played a CF player that did it before. Wavebounced PK fire can probably outspace the Falcon Kick. Plus if your near the edge of the stage CF just hurled himself into position to be edgeguarded.
cman
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 17, 2008
- Messages
- 593
Does anyone have experience with the samus matchup? I play samus, and I'm having some trouble with this matchup for two main reasons. First, samus has really poor OoS options and lucas has pretty good shield pressure capabilities. Second, lucas is short and quick so it's harder to projectile camp him. Can we discuss this matchup next?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
never played a samus before. D:
Sorry. In theory, shouldn't small missles and playing keepaway with retreating fairs be your best option? try to get early gimps with samus' awesome spike, because lucas' recovery is pretty terrible...
Sorry. In theory, shouldn't small missles and playing keepaway with retreating fairs be your best option? try to get early gimps with samus' awesome spike, because lucas' recovery is pretty terrible...
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Not if you zap jump -> magnet pull or tether.
Anyways one of the things with samus is you need to be careful with the charge beam (this is from the perspective of samus) because Lucas can use his Psimagnet. Also does PK fire cancel out any of Samus's projectiles?