A Lucas+ Primer & Discussion: NOW DISCUSSING MARF MATCHUP

[Shell]

L U C A S +

He's scary like that.


In general, this guide will focus on the newer changes / techniques for Lucas in Brawl+, although nearly all of his old regular Brawl tactics still apply. For this reason, I recommend you get some background reading on regular Lucas first if you are new to him.

Index of Important (Standard Brawl) Lucas Threads

Also, this thread is not meant for Buff / Nerf requests. Those can be mentioned on the Plusery thread, the IRC channel, or you can feel free to send me a PM.

Table of Contents​

I) Lucas in Brawl vs. Brawl+

II) Moves

III) New and Preserved Strategies

IV) Videos​

I - Lucas in Brawl vs. Brawl+​

In regular Brawl, Lucas was very much an average character who was solid in most aspects, but didn't have any tremendously powerful techniques like those exhibited by much of the upper tiers. Additionally, his tournament viability was heavily limited by grab-release infinites.

In our initial releases of Brawl+, very little about Lucas had changed, and while the rest of the cast gained an abundance of new options through combos, Lucas fell behind. With the most recent set, however, we've given Lucas a lot of special attention, making him genuinely excel in a few areas, namely pressure and edge-guarding. Additionally, he's overall more mobile and suffers less lag from arials than many characters, blurring the line between some of his new-found arial abilities and his excellent ground game. Finally, grab-release infinites have been removed from the game, which is excellent news for Lucas.


Why play Lucas in Brawl+?

Pros:

+Can destroy low recoveries that must either grab the ledge or go near above it
+A multitude of recovery options with good range
+Amazing shield pressure game
+Excellent arial mobility
+Smash attacks kill at low percents
+Small target with many slightly disjointed attacks
+Best pummel in the game (dmg/second)​

Cons:

-Limited range on many attacks
-PKT2 is harder to sweetspot, and can still be gimped effectively
-Throws neither kill well, nor combo well
-Fewer set-ups for kill moves than some other characters​

II - Moves​

These are the moves that are either directly different from Brawl to Brawl+, or which have been effected by other overall changes.​

Tilts & Smashes

Up-tilt - It's now has a bit faster cooldown (1.175x), which means it's a more effective setup tool. A Nair to u-tilt will put some serious pressure on a shield, and Dair to u-tilt can create a nice pillar-esque combo at low to mid/high percents.

Up-smash - This move is also faster, but it's subtle (1.15x). It now starts on frame 24 (was 28) and ends on frame 85 (was 98). While it's slightly easier to land this move, the consequences for whiffing it are even higher, as dash canceling allows anyone to dash right at you into any attack, and grabs can lead to combos which lead to damage / KOs ... Overall it's still a risky move, just very slightly less so.

Down-smash - While this move isn't different per se, the lack of auto-sweet-spotting ledges (ASL) means that this move is very effective at edge-guarding against those that usually return to the ledge during recovery (Spacies, etc.). It's also still great at punishing compulsive spot-dodgers.

Forward-smash (The Stick) - Like the down smash, this move isn't directly altered, but gains a few advantages from general changes. Dash Canceling allows you to be more aggressive / mobile with this move. Also, because of hitstun, if you can get someone with a Nair at killing percents and you DI out of them before the attack finishes (auto-canceling it), you can often follow this up with an immediate forward smash for the kill / edge-guard.


Arial Attacks

Bair - As you're probably aware, in regular Brawl, Lucas's toe is a meteor smash throughout the arc of the Bair, while the hexagons pushed the opponent away. Now, the final hexagon or two will also act as a meteor, making Bair "spikes" slightly more reliable and spaceable. Additionally, this new hit will pop a grounded opponent into the air, much like other character's meteor smashes. It's somewhat difficult to land, but try a RAR'd bair to combo. Situational, yes, but another option.

Dair - This move hasn't been directly changed, but the lowering of Lucas's landing lag affects this move especially drastically since it had the most landing lag of his moves previously. Again, try the pillar, or tech-chase with it. I'm still exploring all of it's new uses.

Specials / Dash Attack / Grab

Dash Attack - This move has been heavily changed. First, it's been sped up for the majority of the move (1.20x) but has additional lag on the end (0.70x at frame 31). Secondly, the outer hitbox (the hexagons) push the opponent away from you and does little damage (5%) -- basically a flub hit with a few situational uses. However, if you can connect with the hand, it will pop up your opponent in front of you quite nicely at a 75 degree angle with low knock-back growth -- perfect for following up with an arial or smash attack. It can also serve to link combo attacks together, such as Fair to Dash Attack to Fair. It's not wise to abuse this move, however, as it is quite easily predicted and shield grabbed when you go for the sweetspot (hand).

Standing Grab - Most tether grabs, including Lucas's, have had their cool-down reduced -- his is 1.50x faster after the hitbox comes out. This might seem like a huge buff, but you must consider that (as mentioned in the U-smash) laggy attacks are more punishable in general due to Dash Canceling and Combos. Overall less punishable than Brawl, but you still won't be landing this terribly often. Great damage per second with the pummel.


General Physics Changes

Gravity - Lucas's gravity has been raised very slightly, but his jumps have been adjusted back so that he still gets the same height out of them. It's just enough that he can move a little bit faster without affecting his recovery (1.025x Down Grav, 1.05x Full Grav).

Fast-fall and Double Jump - These are both slightly faster than regular, meaning he can still float a little when he needs to, but he can also rapidly ascend or descend.

Momentum - When Lucas jumps, he receives a boost of speed / distance to his jump over jumping from a stand-still (This sort of effect is most noticeable with Falcon in Melee / Brawl+). What this means is that he can cover roughly a little less than 1/3 of FD in a short hop, giving him a good way to make quick approaches to capitalize on openings or follow up setups.

III - New and Preserved Strategies​

Approaches - Well spaced Fairs can be a safe approach. Also try a full-hopped (or even short-hopped) Dair. If you're already pretty close, cross over their shield with a Nair and follow it up with an u-tilt. You can also try the RAR'd Bair that I mentioned, or use dash canceling to run up into a tilt / smash / grab.

Comboing - Once you've approached and you've got them in hitstun, try using Nairs (Fast-falling before final hit), Pillaring, or Fair strings to wrack up damage pretty quickly. I'd be happy to make a whole section on this at some point if people want to help out with cool set-ups / combos they've found.

Killing - Use the tips mentioned in the Forward-smash section, and if you can land a sweet spotted dash attack that will usually set up for one of his kill moves. The U-throw is a late killer (~150ish%) and opponents generally die earlier in Brawl+, but it makes for another option. This may be tweaked slightly in the future. Also, d-tilt to trip can still lead to guaranteed smashes. Finally, the Fair is a bit more reliable killer at higher percents, especially when used off stage, which leads me to...

Edge-guarding Most of Lucas's old tricks still apply here. However, jump momentum makes it easier for Lucas to leap out there and Fair someone into the blast-zone. Also, Bair is slightly easier to "spike" with. All of his smashes are useful for guarding the ledge, and his PK Thunder / Freeze are still effective edge-guarding tools as well. Lastly, the end of his Down-B (PK Magnet) has a small semi-spiking hitbox, but Fair is usually more reliable.


Once again, any of these last sections could easily be developed a bit more, so bring on your tips and strategies!

IV - Videos​

4.1 Set

NinjaLink (Lucas) vs. Fab (Peach)

SHeLL (Lucas) vs 0WN1N (Wario)

SHeLL (Lucas) vs 0WN1N (Wolf)


4.0 Set

Asura (Lucas) vs. Vista (PKMN Trainer)

DP's Mario (Lucas) vs Cape(G&W)

SHeLL (Lucas) vs 0WN1N (Wolf) ​

To do:

-Match-ups
-Expand general Tips & Strategies

--------------------------------
Changelist:

04/16/09 - v1.00 - Initial guide with changes, limited tips/strategies
04/22/09 - v1.01 - Added a few videos
05/12/09 - v1.02 - Added new picture and updated move changes

 

[Shell]

Reserved for any necessary future use.

 

[goodoldganon]

My eye-balls aren't ready for these graphics.

 

[prOAPC]

this is getting better and better :D i mean, now Brawl+ has its own character discussion :D

 

[Shell]

prOAPC -- From what I can tell, a homebrew hack for Wii 4.0 is steadily getting closer. I'm looking forward to a lot of good feedback and videos from you soon!

 

[Mattnumbers]

Lucas is looking great, can't wait to get Brawl+ on my Wii. Thanks for the good thread some of these brawl+ character threads suck.
Could you (or someone else) post a video of the changed Lucas moves so people can more easily see the differences in the before/after lag?

 

[Shell]

I don't actually have a camera. However, give me another 1-2 weeks and I might be able to whip something like that up with a little help from Falco400, if he's interested. I understand that not everyone that's scoping out Brawl+ has a modded Wii, and this could be a nice teaser / introduction.

In the mean time, I would suggest just watching matches until you can get your mitts on it.

Also, I will soon have time to expand this guide a bit more. What do people want to see? I was thinking about comboing or killing, and then moving on to a more complete move description.

 

[matt4300]

I dont play Lucas, But I have to fight him alot and he ****S my bowser and link most of the time... Any time i get hit of stage PK thunder=death... WHY.. WHY do i play all chars with bad recoverys? (link,Ness,Bowser ect) Is this somekinda cruel joke?

LOL at matt2358's name ... what a lame name *shakes head in pitty*

 

[Veril]

There's much more of a point to Lucas's super recovery techniques in B+. His recovery is so good that I don't have any issue with the lack of autosweetspotting. It wasn't ever really a great idea anyway, if someone is gonna edgehog you, you should aim to land just at the edge of the stage, passing through them might not them off the edge to.

I mean, we've got zapjumping, magnet pulling (better due to the faster pkf) and a tether...


Has anyone else been using d-air > autocanceled up-air to up-tilt (to a different SH aerial)? I might start up a Lucas combo list simular to my Jiggs one for when I get my wii back.

What about Psi-dashing? I thing it actually serves more of a purpose in B+.

 

[ToxiCrow]

whats with Lucas' upsmash? it used to KO at around 80%. now it doesnt KO until around 100.
why nerf his upsmash? it was hard enough to hit with and its easly punshiable when missed. it should go back to KO-ing at 80

 

[matt4300]

whats with Lucas' upsmash? it used to KO at around 80%. now it doesnt KO until around 100.
why nerf his upsmash? it was hard enough to hit with and its easly punshiable when missed. it should go back to KO-ing at 80

His usmash wasent nerfed... just like foxes usmash wasnet.. just like links dair wasent. Most chars have higher gravity in Brawl+ wich pulls them down as they get shot up so the die 10-15- 25!!!(lol falcon) percents higher than they used to.

 

[Shell]

Most vertical kill moves work 2-5% later depending on the opponent. However, for many opponents this is unchanged, and for Falcon, it's about 9% later. I've found the u-smash to kill reliably somewhere between 85-95%. Overall, it's slightly better than vBrawl, in my opinion, due to the 1.15x speed up and the fact that sweet-spotted dash attack situationally sets up for it as a kill move.

@Veril - if you want to get started on a detailed combo list I'll throw it in the guide with props to you and add my own contributions as I can. Sounds good. And I haven't personally tried to work PSI-dashing into my game too much more, yet.

 

[Veril]

Most vertical kill moves work 2-5% later depending on the opponent. However, for many opponents this is unchanged, and for Falcon, it's about 9% later. I've found the u-smash to kill reliably somewhere between 85-95%. Overall, it's slightly better than vBrawl, in my opinion, due to the 1.15x speed up and the fact that sweet-spotted dash attack situationally sets up for it as a kill move.

@Veril - if you want to get started on a detailed combo list I'll throw it in the guide with props to you and add my own contributions as I can. Sounds good. And I haven't personally tried to work PSI-dashing into my game too much more, yet.

D-air tech-chases into up-smash work better in B+. Up-smash still has that enormous hitbox...

I'm good at the combo list thing, when my wii gets back from repairs I'll start on it.

On psi-dashing: it was pretty gimicky in vBrawl. I used it to mindgame people into getting f-smashed. In B+ its a ton better because we can combo into it and have better movement options for landing it. I b-stick so I have a lot of control over my psi-dash: distance and speed, wavebounced, reverse wavebounced or (auto)rar into a backwards psi-m, etc. Its some crazy crap.

Also... its the most powerful aerial move Lucas has in regards to KOs (other than spikes). If it had less ending lag it would be amazing. I wonder if pkf can combo into a magnet pull...

Include information on his ATs!

 

[Mattnumbers]

I dont play Lucas, But I have to fight him alot and he ****S my bowser and link most of the time... Any time i get hit of stage PK thunder=death... WHY.. WHY do i play all chars with bad recoverys? (link,Ness,Bowser ect) Is this somekinda cruel joke?

LOL at matt2358's name ... what a lame name *shakes head in pitty*

at least I know how to capitalize properly

And yeah I downloaded the wii update so I have to wait to get B+.

 

[Mattnumbers]

What effects do the changed physics have on b-sticking? Since Lucas has extra momentum and a faster PK fire does that mean that he goes even farther now? Is it now possible to magnet pull after a SH PKF?

 

[Shell]

We actually ended up removing the PK Fire code a couple days ago due to complaints from several BRers that it was too spammable. However, the momentum code still gives him some extra momentum for Wave bouncing. This may or may not be fixed in the future. And even with the old faster PK Fire I don't think you could PKF to Magnet pull in a SH.

This guide will be updated for the final 4.1 release here sometime soonish.

 

[Veril]

why would the momentum code need to be fixed. It helps negate the retardedness of his up-b not sweetspotting.

 

[StarshipGroove]

-Lucas dash attack 1.20x until frame 31, then 0.70x for last 10 frames (previously was 1.35x whole move)
-Lucas removed PK Fire buff
-Lucas U-tilt reworked to 1.175x after hitbox from previous (1.35x total)

What's the matter, scared by Lucas's amazing power? Perhaps the buffs were a bit excessive, but Lucas wasn't broken.
I noticed that the first hitbox of his upsmash is gone, probably because of the speed up.

 

[Shell]

@Veril, you can still sweetspot with PKT2 in a lot of cases when you approach from a more horizontal angle. It just won't let you sweetspot when you're rising too quickly. In most of the cases where this wouldn't work (close and below the stage) you'd probably get gimped if you tried to do it anyways (stick to DJ AD tether or Zap jump if you've got the DJ instead.) But I understand that it hurts when you have to use it as a last resort. The trouble is that wavebounced PK Fires are just a little too hard to punish right now.

@StarshipGroove: Yes, the Lucas buffs were a little too much. Have you tried him in the recent set? I think he's still quite excellent. Don't worry.

And thank you for alerting me to the U-smash bug. I'll take a closer look at this in 1/4 speed tomorrow.

 

[Veril]

@Veril, you can still sweetspot with PKT2 in a lot of cases when you approach from a more horizontal angle. It just won't let you sweetspot when you're rising too quickly. In most of the cases where this wouldn't work (close and below the stage) you'd probably get gimped if you tried to do it anyways (stick to DJ AD tether or Zap jump if you've got the DJ instead.) But I understand that it hurts when you have to use it as a last resort. The trouble is that wavebounced PK Fires are just a little too hard to punish right now.

@StarshipGroove: Yes, the Lucas buffs were a little too much. Have you tried him in the recent set? I think he's still quite excellent. Don't worry.

And thank you for alerting me to the U-smash bug. I'll take a closer look at this in 1/4 speed tomorrow.

It wasn't a good idea to sweetspot his recovery in vBrawl so its not a huge issue anyway, more of an annoyance than anything else. It makes him a somewhat easier gimp in that respect.

I'm sort of an expert on Lucas's momentum techniques and I almost always use wavezaps in preference to pkt2.

honestly the idea that Lucas needs to be nerfed or toned down in any way is pretty bogus considering he's nowhere near the best, not even in the top 10. WBPKF doesn't need to be punishable, its not that good to begin with and there aren't any followups. The increased momentum is really cool with wavezaps so... yeah... I really don't want it to change.

Oh, I can literally answer any questions you may have about zapjumps, magnet pull, psi-dash, ledge momentum tricks (thundersliding) and all permutations (b-reversals, turnaround, wavebouncing, etc) thereof.

 

[shanus]

Starship, the dash attack was actually safe on shield, hence the need for a bit of a slow down. If the change is too excessive, we'll fix it. Well, more like SheLL will fix it and PM me the details ;-)

And PK fire was a bit too spammable, but I'd like to see a way to make it more versatile for combos since the change was removed. Would it be too detrimental if the startup was slowed down a bit to compensate a sped up ending? I'm not sure how it will effect the wavebounce but it could be a fair trade to give more options out of PK fire while not increasing spammability.

 

[Veril]

And PK fire was a bit too spammable, but I'd like to see a way to make it more versatile for combos since the change was removed. Would it be too detrimental if the startup was slowed down a bit to compensate a sped up ending? I'm not sure how it will effect the wavebounce but it could be a fair trade to give more options out of PK fire while not increasing spammability.

The slower startup might lead to absurdly tall zapjump. I'm not sure what would happen with wavebouncing. It would be interesting to see.

Less cool down would greatly improve its use for movement, esp magnet pulls.

I think its a pretty cool idea.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Is there anyway to fix the weird mechanics of PKT2 bouncing off the stage when you hit it from certain angles/directions?

Also, I don't personally think that PKF SHOULD be a combo move, I think it should mainly be used as a stand alone hit for repelling oncoming opponents and as a way to use Lucas's AT's. I mean its a projectile and it doesn't really do much damage. Of course this is just what I think, feel free to show me if I'm missing something.

 

[Shell]

I think it'd be easier to make it comboable into rather than out of. This was really what I was originally going for when I was adjusting it. The thought was that if you were comboing someone and they were just out of range you might be able to finish the combo with PK Fire for some extra damage. This could be balanced with the addition of considerable endlag as long as it doesn't affect his ATs.

(@Veril, a slower startup on the PK fire would actually make the Zap jump lower than vanilla. You might notice that I had to apply the old speed up 2 frames after the beginning of the animation to prevent it from making the zap jump massive).

Making it a setup would be difficult, necessitating changes in the KBG, BKB, angle, and speed (possibly damage) which may or may not be possible with our current codes. I'm not trying to argue developer intention at all, it's just really not built to be a setup move.

Here's some frame data to chew on compliments of 3GOD

Side-B:
Total: 53
First hits on frame 21 – 38
Shield hit lag: 0
Shield stun: 7
Landing lag (Aerial Side-B): 23

The old tweak was 1.4x from frame 2 until 21 (startup) making it come out on frame 15/16 instead of 21. The endlag was still 32 frames. This might be balanced by increasing the endlag from 32 frames to 50ish frames. Just guessing. This would make it more effective as a combo "top-off" (not really a "KO / finisher") and keep its use as a defensive projectile, but make you think twice before using it due to endlag. Might diminish magnet pulling, though.

 

[Mattnumbers]

IMO using PK fire for extra mobility is better than 6?% damage at the end of some combos, but I don't even have Brawl+ yet (Menu 4.0) so that 6% might be more important.

 

[Veril]

Magnet pulling is a unique component of Lucas's game. Weakening it would be terrible. Honestly I think pkf should just be left alone.

Comboing into pkf is stupid. It won't KO and the damage is mediocre. This does not in any way balance out with a weak magnet pull and increased lag. It would f*** it as a defensive projectile since it can easily be powershielded even in B+ and the lag would leave us open to bad things...

Adding ending lag is the worst thing you could do to the move.

 

[Dotcom]

Most of this is opinionated and very much up for debate.
But Lucas as he is now is in the top 10 best in the game.
His shield pressure, combo factor, and while most people don't think so, he killing prowess is amazing.
He actually has a good game(back throw is reliable for kills, and when used right his edge guarding skills are great too.

Combos:
I'm going to list combos that I know for certain work, There are more than i'm listing but you can try these out and even with DI they should still go.
UTilt > UTilt
UTilt > UTilt > UTilt
UTilt> Jab(all 3)
UTilt > UTilt> Nair
UTilt> UTilt> Uair
UTilt>UTilt>Uair> Uair
UTilt> UTilt> FTilt
Falling Nair> UTilt
DTilt> FSmash
Jab> PKFire
FTilt> PKFire
Dair > FSmash
Bair spike> F Smash
Dair > DSmash
Bair(spike)> DSmash


Other stuff.
PKT1 is an awesome edge guard tool. Your opponent will most likely air dodge, if you can see this you can continually hit them any direction you want.
I do what others on my crew have called the "PK chase" and use thunder to continually hit people off stage into a KO.
Or you can use it to rack up damage, as they recovery. Plus it stage spikes easily now because of the non sweet spot, so it's a really good move to use if your opponent is in a position where he can't capitalize on your lag(i.e. off stage)

Here's 2 vidoes from the 4.1 version where PK fire was spammable(the good ol' days)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrCv7b6Yo1U&feature=channel
(me) .com(Lucas) vs ChiboSempai(Wario)
***awesome ending combo :]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-msHPwRSMo&feature=channel
.com(Lucas) vs ChiboSempai(Falco)

In these two vids you can see mainly how Utilt can become a big part of the Lucas combo game.

 

[Veril]

A lot of those combos worked in vBrawl and just work better now.

I'm going to be testing 3 lucas-combos when I get my wii back. (more will come...)
jab x2 to f-smash, jab x2 to PKT (so cool), and falling (not autocanceled) n-air to jab.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I hear almost every character guide say that X character is definitely in the top 10, so I'm not going to believe Lucas is till I get more confirmation of it from non-Lucas mains.

 

[Veril]

every character guide say that X character is broken

fixed.

Yeah seriously, just ignore any comment saying anyone is the best or close to the best. That's why I put Jiggs down as "viable", even though many (me included) believe she is very good. Lucas isn't top 10, there is no tier list yet. Speculation only.

Lucas whips out his snake as a taunt. How pimp is that? Discuss.

 

[Mattnumbers]

So Veril, how far does psi dashing go now with the new momentum? I don't ever see it in videos.

 

[BigBrawler]

I'm not sure, I loved Lucas in regular brawl and even though I admit brawl+ is much more balanced I am not feeling him as well. I can't seem to use the magnet pull as effectively with bstick as without bstick (lastest version). Without magnet pull I've pretty much given up on bstick since you can wavebounce in brawl+ using a cstick. I do love how his tilts come out faster and he has an easier combo game in it but I dont know. I love brawl+ but I am not feeling lucas as much anymore. I guess I don't like it since Lucas is easier to use but not necessarily much better. People I know who don't play lucas couldn't find a big difference with him except for his Nair and tilts. The rest of us who main him know better luckily .


Cheers to the people who made brawl+ though. There are some wicked cool things you can do with Lucas (for instance I love sweeping across the stage using his Dair) and I do think that his edgeguarding does have a big advantage in this game compared to other characters. I also love how more stages are more viable to play.

 

[Veril]

So Veril, how far does psi dashing go now with the new momentum? I don't ever see it in videos.

God. Not having my wii hurts so bad. I'll be putting up videos like mad once I've got it back (the repair place says Monday for sure...)

Psi-dashing goes somewhat farther, though you still control the horizontal and vertical movement based on when you start the PsiM. I'll write something up on it when I can mess around with Lucas some more.

 

[ToxiCrow]

can we get the faster PKFire back? it's not as spammable as the other projectiles in this game.
and it would really help lucas out

 

[piZ]

can we get the faster PKFire back? it's not as spammable as the other projectiles in this game.
and it would really help lucas out

Yeah, because it is definitely useless and has no other uses.

PK Fire is good in it's current state imo..

 

[Veril]

Yeah, because it is definitely useless and has no other uses.

PK Fire is good in it's current state imo..

really? How is it good?

For comboing? Damage? Making a wall? Is it hard to avoid? The answer to all those questions is no. Lucas has a better option most of the time.

Its not bad per se, just not nearly as good as many other projectiles. AS AN ATTACK.

As a movement option its amazing... as long as they don't f*** with its end lag. If that happens I just won't use Lucas.

can we get the faster PKFire back? it's not as spammable as the other projectiles in this game.
and it would really help lucas out

Lucas doesn't need help. His shield pressure game is insanely good, his combo game is very good, his recovery is superb, he has multiple KO moves and above average movement capabilities across the board. Really I think he's ok as it, though I'd like to see the startup and ending lag for Psi-M to both be decreased, since that would add an interesting new element to his game.

OMFG OMFG OMFG OMFG MY WII IS HERE!!!!!!! YTESESESEY:OGRDIBREBG:EWR

"Leaves" (literally the UPS truck pulled in this minute)

 

[ToxiCrow]

Yeah, because it is definitely useless and has no other uses.

PK Fire is good in it's current state imo..

dont be ********. not once did i ever say that nor will i ever. i probably know more about lucas than you do.

i was asking to make it faster because i liked it and it made his spacing game much better than it previously was.
it's still a good spacing tool, but it was a better spacing tool when it was faster

and while i think a faster PSIm would be interesting, i would prefer to hav a faster PKF again. the speed it moves at and the cooldown are ok, but if it came out faster it would be even better (or vice versa)

@Veril-O : now that ur wii is back we gotta do some wifi

 

[Shell]

I was in Columbus and Missouri since Thursday, just got back. I've been browsing the feedback. I've gotten a huge range of feedback on him in the last several weeks, ranging from "he's midtier" to "he's unfair," with the majority of people thinking that he's just really good, which is what we want for everyone.

If any of you haven't done so recently, please check out the latest nightly build. As you may recall, the PK Fire buff was removed, and dash attack & u-tilt toned down slightly. He's still excellent -- I just wanted to make sure this was factored in to any upcoming combo lists or strategies, etc. I don't think the changes really removed any combo options, they just made them a little harder / more punishable if spammed / tighter in percent range. As I've seen such a range of feedback on him, we're going to wait on changing him for a little bit. However, if you have suggestions in the meantime, they can certainly be considered, just not implemented yet. Hit me up on IRC or PM.

Now that we're getting some discussion generated here, what would you guys like to talk about? It looks like Veril and dotcom are getting some combo suggestions together. On that note, I'd like to suggest adding the dash attack in there -- it sets up for a lot of good things if sweetspotted which depend on character / percent (anything at lower percent, U-smash at 80-90% , fair / uair kills at higher percents). Also, the grounded Bair pop-up is a solid set up. I'll compile a more professional list as we get more.

Otherwise, I'd like to flesh out the killing and edgeguarding sections soon, unless people would prefer to discuss matchups first.

 

[ToxiCrow]

SHeLL- yes, i have been playing the nightly builds. and if everyone is saying that Lucas is "unfair" and his buffs were taken away, then i have to agree. my opinion does not override a community's opinion.
i'll use lucas against more people; then i can add more to this thread.

 

[Veril]

Lucas is fine in his current state. I think he's one of the most "fair" and "balanced" characters currently. He has some fantastic strengths but will no doubt suffer some of the same bad matchups. Like in vBrawl, he has no real omgwtf move and while he is well rounded, he isn't the best in any area.

Anyway, I'm testing with the latest codeset. I found that n-air (pre-knockback) to up-tilt is a combo on everyone to 200+% (the highest I test to, since you really should have KOed them at that point).