Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

The most interesting thing on the list is Fox at 3rd. Wasn't there someone in this thread saying that as well?

Don't think so, last time we discussed Fox was, well, when someone started a discussion on fox, so it might be there. Was a couple weeks back iirc.
But yeah, it's very interesting. Fox is very, very good (5th imo), but 3rd is intriguing.
*sees Ganon as worst*
*cries*
Y u do this dabuz.
also worth noting are how strangely high Dedede is and how strangely low Ike is, among other things.

 

[Minordeth]

I think Dabuz is great. And this isn't just specific to him, but people forget what the hell characters being two tiers above other top tiers actually looks like.

Here's a hint:

 

[ぱみゅ]

To be fair with Dabuz, many japanese players also place Kirby in bottom tier. Maybe they see the game from differently. Remember it's all a matter of perspective (similar to how ESAM puts Duckhunt and Pac-man really low), I think waiting for an explanation may be worth it.

Speaking of japanese players' lists, they also tend to be unimpressed by Luigi, Robin and Wario, all of them are usually quite low there, compared to most westerns'.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Everyone's tier lists vary so drastically, dang. I'm surprised he put ROB so low. Guess ROB hasn't made much an impression recently.
Also I don't recall looking at any Japanese player tier list recently. I know their opinions are quite different though, like said above.

similar to how ESAM puts Duckhunt and Pac-man really low

ESAM also thinks Link is hot ass as well. Some people put Pac-Man as like bottom 3 as well.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Is no one going to comment on that high Falco placement? Dabuz really seems to think high of the spacies.

 

[TDK]

I remember watching Dabuz' stream a while back, and he mentioned that Kirby is bottom tier and will definitely be bottom tier once people realize how easy it is to hit him until you have a percent lead and then camp him out.

Is this true, kirbies?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I remember watching Dabuz' stream a while back, and he mentioned that Kirby is bottom tier and will definitely be bottom tier once people realize how easy it is to hit him until you have a percent lead and then camp him out.

Is this true, kirbies?

Is there a link to that stream?

 

[Lord Dio]

To be fair with Dabuz, many japanese players also place Kirby in bottom tier. Maybe they see the game from differently. Remember it's all a matter of perspective (similar to how ESAM puts Duckhunt and Pac-man really low), I think waiting for an explanation may be worth it.

Speaking of japanese players' lists, they also tend to be unimpressed by Luigi, Robin and Wario, all of them are usually quite low there, compared to most westerns'.

Kirby's placement doesn't surprise me, we discussed some time back how kirby was dropping off as a whole, and he's already what, low tier on a months old list? Wouldn't surprise me if on the next one he drops to the bottom.
Notice how all three of those are characters Japan seems to lack a playerbase in, whereas in the us and EU there's a playerbase for them. Reminder that because of how good KEN is Japan thinks Sonic is really, really good. It makes sense tbh. Have a small or nonexistent playerbase for an area, they won't think the character's that good, and vice versa for big playerbases.

 

[Guido65]

I remember watching Dabuz' stream a while back, and he mentioned that Kirby is bottom tier and will definitely be bottom tier once people realize how easy it is to hit him until you have a percent lead and then camp him out.

Is this true, kirbies?

Not a kirby but a while back locus said that kirby is the worst in the game and dabuz also agreed with what he said.
https://twitter.com/LocusSK/status/869664723364593665

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Zero posted this an hour ago.

 

[BSP]

I was ready to get triggered, but considering the density of high tiers in this game, its less of "oh this character is bad" but more like "well someone has to be bottom 10".

That said I don't think Bayo and Cloud belong in their own tier, at least regarding singles meta.

Idk man. Weren't bayo and cloud (and diddy?) pretty clearly ahead on Das Koopa's results for his last season?

From a tool perspective I think Bayo could be , but she and cloud aren't the only good characters that utterly obliterate the worse portion of the cast.

@Red Ryu what about Pac feels underwhelming to you? I've been back on a spiel of playing him and I still feel like whenever I lose, it's because of me as a player and not because of something the character lacks. Granted I'm not at top level of play, but I feel like he has everything he needs to at least compete (or time you out).

I will say his buttons are a bit underwhelming considering how easily his tools are bypassed by some of the cast. He has brawler range but approaches swordfighter frame data on some moves, which is quite unfortunate.

 

[|RK|]

I remember watching Dabuz' stream a while back, and he mentioned that Kirby is bottom tier and will definitely be bottom tier once people realize how easy it is to hit him until you have a percent lead and then camp him out.

Is this true, kirbies?

It's almost true, but it misses a couple of fundamental things. First, unlike Ganondorf (another character that gets camped out), Kirby is also hard *to* hit. So against a number of characters, he can just stalemate with neither approaching. His approaches certainly aren't great, but a lot of the time, he has no need to.

Second, Kirby isn't as slow as people think. On the ground, he has a runspeed of 1.57 - Mario and a number of other characters are at 1.6. Airspeed is pretty bad though, in the same company as Diddy and Luigi.

Typically, though, his biggest issue is vertically - since he can't jump that high. But there are a number of ways to avoid a camping situation in the first place. Two most obvious are 1) taking the lead, and 2) using copy abilities.

And on the latter point, his inhale is a command grab. Certain characters camp him better than others (Cloud, ZSS, Sonic, Rosalina), but it's not as transferrable across the cast as people believe.

(Also, again - Luigi is slower than Kirby, and just as susceptible to being camped out... But no one ever brings that up about him. He has a number of other advantages over Kirby that help him fight an opponent, but the only one that helps him not be camped is a higher jump.)

 

[Kofu]

Luigi also has, you know, an actual projectile. A respectable one, too. It's not great but it can pressure opponents into approaching (you don't want to shield against Luigi). Outside of Copy abilities Kirby doesn't have anything that can force opponents to approach.

That said, I definitely don't think Kirby is bottom 5. Bottom 10, maybe, but he's not as low as Dabuz placed him.

 

[|RK|]

Luigi also has, you know, an actual projectile. A respectable one, too. It's not great but it can pressure opponents into approaching (you don't want to shield against Luigi). Outside of Copy abilities Kirby doesn't have anything that can force opponents to approach.

That said, I definitely don't think Kirby is bottom 5. Bottom 10, maybe, but he's not as low as Dabuz placed him.

Luigi's fireball does not help him to avoid being camped. I acknowledged it helps him to fight opponents - especially, as you said, in terms of forcing shields, etc. But if you're running away from Luigi, and your goal is to avoid confronting him at all costs? Fireballs don't really force characters that don't want to approach into approaching. On top of that, due to the endlag of fireballs, he can't really control space and act.

 

[Locke 06]

Kirby has no burst options outside of fsmash, which barely counts. Luigi has dash grab and cyclone.

Kirby also has no range (I guess BAir?) while Luigi has good range on things like ftilt and BAir.

If Kirby had Luigi's dash grab and upper cutter, he'd be a functional mid-high character, but he doesn't.

 

[ARISTOS]

Luigi also has, you know, an actual projectile. A respectable one, too. It's not great but it can pressure opponents into approaching (you don't want to shield against Luigi). Outside of Copy abilities Kirby doesn't have anything that can force opponents to approach.

That said, I definitely don't think Kirby is bottom 5. Bottom 10, maybe, but he's not as low as Dabuz placed him.

I don't see how Kirby is not a terrible, piss-poor character.

Overall, Kirby might have the 2nd worst overall mobility in the game, with only King DeDeDe having it worse. However, Kirby has no range to speak of, no threatening burst options whatsoever, no projectile to force approaches, aerials are unsafe on shield outside of Bair, slow frame data on key moves he needs to use to convert into damage, gets killed early, has a terrible recovery in Final Cutter, useless specials outside of Inhale, etc. etc.

Being able to punish Fox stupidly hard is the one thing Kirby does well, but I don't see it outside of that. There are just too many negatives against the character.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby has no burst options outside of fsmash, which barely counts. Luigi has dash grab and cyclone.

Kirby also has no range (I guess BAir?) while Luigi has good range on things like ftilt and BAir.

If Kirby had Luigi's dash grab and upper cutter, he'd be a functional mid-high character, but he doesn't.

Cyclone is also incredibly unsafe, but accepted. My point is not to say Kirby is better than or equal to Luigi.

But seriously - which of Luigi's options you mentioned keep him from getting camped out? Cyclone certainly won't, and dash grab - while VERY good, doesn't really affect an opponent who is running away.

So my only point here is this - if Kirby getting camped out is the reason he's so low, Luigi should drop similarly.

(And as an aside, Kirby's ftilt has good range. It hits Marth at tipper distance... which is obviously not a place you want to be, but just to make a point for the range)

I don't see how Kirby is not a terrible, piss-poor character.

Overall, Kirby might have the 2nd worst overall mobility in the game, with only King DeDeDe having it worse. However, Kirby has no range to speak of, no threatening burst options whatsoever, no projectile to force approaches, aerials are unsafe on shield outside of Bair, slow frame data on key moves he needs to use to convert into damage, gets killed early, has a terrible recovery in Final Cutter, useless specials outside of Inhale, etc. etc.

Being able to punish Fox stupidly hard is the one thing Kirby does well, but I don't see it outside of that. There are just too many negatives against the character.

Just gonna do bullets:

• Luigi is slower, ground and air
• Yeah, he doesn't really have burst options. SH bair is the closest thing to one, but this is right.
• No projectiles without copy, yes
• No, all of his aerials are safe on shield.
• Dair only on crossup or fadeback is his least safe
• Uair is +2 and the reverse hit is +3 on shield drop (and disjointed).
• Nair is +4 or +1 on shield drop (strong hit or weaker hits), so you can mash jab before any option comes out on the strong hit.
• Fair is the least safe, but the third hit is -2 on drop and has good range. Very good for avoiding shield grabs if spaced. Not so safe on whiff.
• Kirby can convert from grab, dtilt, utilt, nair, uair, dair, fair hit 2, so on. You'll note that the first three options are pretty fast, so... no, not necessarily.
• Gets killed early, yes. He's the same weight as Pikachu and Fox, heavier than Rosalina. He's also harder to hit than all of those save for Pikachu.
• Final Cutter isn't really good, no. You're right here. Stone and Hammer also aren't useless - they're situational. Hammer is the least used - Stone has uses for edgeguarding (and ledge jump coverage), Final Cutter will be used for fthrow combos at early-mid percents. Hammer is really just for shield break punishes, tech traps, and on occasion recoveries that don't snap ledge.

I feel like people reaaalllly don't know much about Kirby, tbh. I'm well past trying to convince anyone of anything - I only provide this to clear up misinformation & call out what I believe to be an inconsistency.

 

[TDK]

A few minor updates to tournament results I posted over the weekend, since I missed some secondaries/pockets:

25th: Tyrant

2nd: ESAM

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the number one reason Luigi is harder to camp out than Kirby be how much damage he puts on when he does hit you once? I feel like you need a stock lead with Luigi whereas Kirby, from what I can tell, doesn't do enough damage to keep up.

(Please correct me on this if I'm wrong, RK - I have no idea what Kirby's average damage output is)

 

[Y2Kay]

Kirby's damage output is pretty respectable and is the only reason I'd bar from putting him in bottom tier.

 

[|RK|]

A few minor updates to tournament results I posted over the weekend, since I missed some secondaries/pockets:




Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the number one reason Luigi is harder to camp out than Kirby be how much damage he puts on when he does hit you once? I feel like you need a stock lead with Luigi whereas Kirby, from what I can tell, doesn't do enough damage to keep up.

(Please correct me on this if I'm wrong, RK - I have no idea what Kirby's average damage output is)

Luigi's damage output is VERY good, so that certainly makes sense. Fear of reward causing people to approach makes plenty of sense.

To answer the question - Kirby's damage output is solidly above average. Fastfallers get the worst of it, with 40% if you mess up on most of them. More if you're really solid. With rage, you can do a bit more as well because hitstun.

Kirby's combo game only struggles at mid-high percents and above - at this point (save for against the heavies and Yoshi), he loses the ability to combo from grab unless the opponent has poor (or no) DI. That's when you have to start using hits to combo - reverse uair to bair, for example.

Select floaties typically don't eat much damage, though.

 

[Locke 06]

Luigi has a frame 2 jab that has the range of Kirby's down tilt.
Luigi dash grab propels him forward faster than his runspeed, so yes it does help with him not getting camped.
Luigi has a better dash>shield than Kirby by 2f.
Luigi has stronger, safer, and faster cqc smash attacks than Kirby which make people respect his space more (discourage roll in).

Kirby has more issues than just getting camped. Just like Puff has more issues than not having an approach or Toon Link vs Shield. How is Kirby's OoS game? Bad. Kirby ledge guarding? Not great (although Hammer at ledge is underrated). Platform pressure? Etc.

I play SK regularly, so Kirby isn't foreign at all. Comparisons to other characters' weaknesses don't mean very much.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Dair is safe on shield? I usually can grab Kirby if he hits my shield with Dair but I've only played Kirby online so that could have a factor.

Kirby is a a okay character depending on how close you have to come to him would determine how threatening he is to you I can see why a Rosalina and Olimar player wouldn't think highly of Kirby by virtue that those characters never have a reason to be close to Kirby but say a Fox or Mario or Falcon who has to play closer to him are in more danger of messing up and getting stuck in a meaty combo/string.

I think Kirby is more of a low tier by virtue that someone has to be low tier and his tool kit is weaker than most.

 

[|RK|]

Okay, let me repeat:

I'm not arguing whether Kirby is better than Luigi or not. I also don't care where people put Kirby, for the most part.

I'm saying that IF the reason Kirby is so low (bottom 2) is primarily due to being easy to camp out, Luigi, who is slower than Kirby, should suffer a similar drop. Not necessarily down to where Kirby is, but if it's that big of a factor, further than where he currently is.

And Luigi's dash grab range is still limited, Locke. If you're in his zone, yeah - prepare to be grabbed. If you're running away? Not so much.

The rest isn't that relevant since I'm not really comparing the two characters beyond their ability to be camped...

---

Envoy: Dair is only safe if faded back or crossed up. If you land directly in front of the opponent, you get grabbed free.

And yeah, I notice people tend to think higher or lower of Kirby based on their mains... but that trend goes for many characters. The typical story is - if you have to fight Kirby, he's decent. If you don't, you'll think he's bad. Which is fine and all.

 

[Illuminose]

i'll make a fox post later or tomorrow (hint: he's overrated af), but i realized that i never followed up on my g&w post. g&w is a heavily misunderstood character by most players. i want to start this post off by looking at a postmade in response to anti's twitter post asking about g&w's flaws that includes some common misconceptions. it's this: this:

Lack of range, mobility, approach options are very telegraphed. G&W has a few tricks including some disjoints and throw combos, but once you learn those, it's easy to counterplay him

stating lack of range as a g&w flaw is completely ridiculous. his back air alone is like a sword move, with enormous disjointed range and a long-lasting hitbox. neutral air has a large and long-lasting hitbox (it's bigger than it looks). the up air damaging hitbox is somewhat small, but the windbox, which is great for juggling, has absurd range. up smash has a pretty disjointed hitbox. dsmash, fsmash, dtilt, ftilt, dash attack, and jab all have good range.

as for poor mobility and being telegraphed, both are only partially true. for example, g&w has pretty average run speed and isn't a fast faller, which are notable flaws in his mobility. however, he has a great initial dash, giving him a fantastic foxtrot, and top tier aerial mobility. due to his air mobility stats, g&w is one of the best characters at controlling his aerial drift, giving him the ability to fade in and out with his options effectively. this is important because it means that g&w can make fade back/in and crossing up his opponent very ambiguous, making his general approaches less telegraphed. however, g&w does still have some issues with approaching that come into play into certain mus. he isn't necessarily that easy to wall out because dash attack and his aerial drift make him very good at whiff punishing, but it's definitely doable. this is why the marcina g&w mu is even or slight adv marcina, and the corrin mu is probably only a slight advantage for corrin. people seem to think g&w struggles a lot with swords, but this simply isn't true (unless you're cloud).

i've legitimately heard people say things like 'g&w has trouble killing', which is true in the sense that he has difficulty securing kos off non-grab raw punishes. to give g&w a hard time killing, you essentially have to play anti-grab and anti-up smash, both of which lead to relatively early kills, and avoid his fantastic edgeguarding, which isn't that easy. there's also the misconception that g&w typically dies early. although g&w is a very light character, he is one of the harder characters to hit with most kill setups and a rather difficult character to pin down in some ways. his aerial drift and access to up b/dair make trapping his landing non-trivial, and he has a small hurtbox that makes him relatively hard to catch. also, a lot of the things g&w does are pretty noncommittal, so he can be pretty hard to punish. there are definitely weaknesses in g&w's defense that allow you to land kill options because his keepaway just isn't that great, but he tends to live much longer than people think.

since i've already made this post pretty long, i'll just say what i think g&w's losing matchups are and end this post (ask questions if you want). -2: sonic, diddy, rosalina, greninja. -2/-1 (not sure): cloud. -1: corrin, mk, sheik, bayo, bowser. maybe -1: fox, olimar, marcina, yoshi.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Greninja's rediculous mobility and water shuriken make campy play very viable. IMO he'd be high tier (MK/Ryu level) if his water shurikens charging mechanic worked like Sheik's needles.

greninja wouldn't just be high tier, he would be top 10 material. A Sheik/M2 level neutral combined with his punishes (not to mention the edgeguarding potential the water shurikan would have) would be absolutely disgusting. His bad matchups with top tiers, bar Sheik, would almost all be gone.

 

[Game7a1]

i'll make a fox post later or tomorrow (hint: he's overrated af), but i realized that i never followed up on my g&w post. g&w is a heavily misunderstood character by most players. i want to start this post off by looking at a postmade in response to anti's twitter post asking about g&w's flaws that includes some common misconceptions. it's this: this:

stating lack of range as a g&w flaw is completely ridiculous. his back air alone is like a sword move, with enormous disjointed range and a long-lasting hitbox. neutral air has a large and long-lasting hitbox (it's bigger than it looks). the up air damaging hitbox is somewhat small, but the windbox, which is great for juggling, has absurd range. up smash has a pretty disjointed hitbox. dsmash, fsmash, dtilt, ftilt, dash attack, and jab all have good range.

as for poor mobility and being telegraphed, both are only partially true. for example, g&w has pretty average run speed and isn't a fast faller, which are notable flaws in his mobility. however, he has a great initial dash, giving him a fantastic foxtrot, and top tier aerial mobility. due to his air mobility stats, g&w is one of the best characters at controlling his aerial drift, giving him the ability to fade in and out with his options effectively. this is important because it means that g&w can make fade back/in and crossing up his opponent very ambiguous, making his general approaches less telegraphed. however, g&w does still have some issues with approaching that come into play into certain mus. he isn't necessarily that easy to wall out because dash attack and his aerial drift make him very good at whiff punishing, but it's definitely doable. this is why the marcina g&w mu is even or slight adv marcina, and the corrin mu is probably only a slight advantage for corrin. people seem to think g&w struggles a lot with swords, but this simply isn't true (unless you're cloud).

i've legitimately heard people say things like 'g&w has trouble killing', which is true in the sense that he has difficulty securing kos off non-grab raw punishes. to give g&w a hard time killing, you essentially have to play anti-grab and anti-up smash, both of which lead to relatively early kills, and avoid his fantastic edgeguarding, which isn't that easy. there's also the misconception that g&w typically dies early. although g&w is a very light character, he is one of the harder characters to hit with most kill setups and a rather difficult character to pin down in some ways. his aerial drift and access to up b/dair make trapping his landing non-trivial, and he has a small hurtbox that makes him relatively hard to catch. also, a lot of the things g&w does are pretty noncommittal, so he can be pretty hard to punish. there are definitely weaknesses in g&w's defense that allow you to land kill options because his keepaway just isn't that great, but he tends to live much longer than people think.

since i've already made this post pretty long, i'll just say what i think g&w's losing matchups are and end this post (ask questions if you want). -2: sonic, diddy, rosalina, greninja. -2/-1 (not sure): cloud. -1: corrin, mk, sheik, bayo, bowser. maybe -1: fox, olimar, marcina, yoshi.

Just replying to what I have bolded here.

Up-Smash isn't really disjointed. It's obvious that it has the less range (and comes out later) compared to F-Smash and D-Smash, but it makes up for by making most (read: over 50%) of G&W invincible for a third of a second when using it. It doubles as a counter of sorts, just like Rest and probably Bowser's own Up-Smash. Fun Fact: It's also one of the few moves that can punish KO Punch.

I've touched on it before with Leo's Marth MU chart, but I do think he carries that misconception from Melee and Brawl, where it is true then. I think he does fine against swords.

Outside of Toot-Toot percent and D-Throw to Up-B (which has a surprisingly long window of being true), G&W does struggle to KO. But then again, I've been getting the impression that a good portion of the cast has the same problem. His side-throws don't set-up for edgeguarding well (but can in certain situations such as poor DI), his Up and Down throws KO at the same percent has Puff's own Up-Throw (about 260% without rage), but they do set up for a juggle situation (just not a very good one compared to being used at lower percents). I will say that while G&W shouldn't fish for grabs at that percent. F-Tilt and D-Tilt will probably do the job or set up an (l)edgeguard situation. N-air also turns into a KO move at such percents as well.

When he jumps, he does commit, and that's a notable flaw. Sure, he can autocancel with B-air and Up-air (his only aerials with decent autocancel windows), but he has to do it before he lands. This does allow him to land lagless and be able to turn around quickly (something that he does have a problem with) at the expense of not throwing out an attack (mainly for defensive purposes). Still, I find it to be a good trade-off at a distance.

Speaking of Greninja, if more and more Greninja's play like Salem's Greninja, then I can see this being true. I know a few G&W's have a expressed that it can be a tough matchup, but it still won't compare to the G&W:Sonic MU, which is a doable matchup (watch Disgaea vs 6WX at the Xanadu before SSC 2017).

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja having +2 on G&W? That's new to me.

Honestly the only characters I see Greninja having a big advantage over are Ganondorf, Dedede, Zelda, Luigi and maybe Puff.

 

[Kofu]

Yeah, I don't feel like Game & Watch vs. Greninja is horrible for Game & Watch. Greninja definitely has an advantage (superior mobility, kill setups, and camping) but most of Greninja's combo starters are susceptible to being stuffed by Game & Watch's tools.

I can see a campy Greninja being harder to deal with as Game7a1 said, though. If only Water Shuriken was absorbable...

 

[HoSmash4]

Dabuz's kirby reasoning will be - Every character in the game can run away from Kirby and has no reason not to do so

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Greninja having +2 on G&W? That's new to me.

Honestly the only characters I see Greninja having a big advantage over are Ganondorf, Dedede, Zelda, Luigi and maybe Puff.

Exactly what makes Luigi so bad against Greninja?

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja having +2 on G&W? That's new to me.

Honestly the only characters I see Greninja having a big advantage over are Ganondorf, Dedede, Zelda, Luigi and maybe Puff.

I'd probably add maybe to that list too.

Exactly what makes Luigi so bad against Greninja?

speed, disjoints, projectiles. Luigi is incredibly easy for Greninja to camp out.

 

[FullMoon]

I'd probably add maybe to that list too.

Kirby, maybe, Ike, I rather doubt it personally.

Exactly what makes Luigi so bad against Greninja?

Greninja has better range with disjoints, a better projectile, much better mobility and recovering against Luigi isn't too hard because recovering high against him, as long as you don't get too predictable, is pretty easy because Luigi is so slow and Greninja slides forever when he hits the ground.

In big stages like T&C and especially FD, it's really hard for Luigi to get in if Greninja is being campy, smaller stages give less room for running away, but that's only relevant for counterpicks.

IIRC Stroder even beat Mr Concon recently? Not sure how close that one was.

I can see a campy Greninja being harder to deal with as Game7a1 said, though. If only Water Shuriken was absorbable...

If Greninja's in Smash 5, it probably will be absorbable then considering how Water Shuriken went from physical to special in Gen VII lol

 

[Rizen]

Looking at and from a perspective:

out-camps and wins against both and generally plays the same way vs them. Both wreck with combos when they get in and have good offstage walls.
can duck, which isn't big in the Link MU since his jabs are low and projectiles curve but I can see ducking as a big + in other MUs for Kirby. Kirby can copy Link's arrows but because Link has 3 projectiles that's not big in this MU. it could be big in other MUs for kirby. Kirby has an easier time approaching Link on the ground. Command suck isn't super threatening if you respect it. Link's Dthrow combos are extremely effective vs Kirby's light frame and fast falling.
has a harder time ground approaching but at the same time a much better burst game and projectile than kirby. Fireball is really good at mid-range zoning and starting combos. His frame data is possibly the best in the game which gives Link less of a window to take advantage of. He escapes combos easier than Kirby. Luigi's high jumps make him more threatening on platform stages like BF than Kirby and that's a big + when it comes to approaching. Luigi's offstage game is quicker than Kirb's and tornado gimps are deadly at any %. Luigi generally has a scarier CQC and combo game too. But Luigi's traction vs Link's shield safety really hurts him.

So Luigi's a scarier MU than Kirby unless it's on FD. IMO Kirby's not bottom tier but he is low tier. Luigi really should be high tier; Link's design counters him but Luigi's so good it ends up being only +1 and I can see Luigi being very threatening to characters who can't wall him out.

 

[TDK]

Mega Smash Mondays 113 ft. KEN, Kirihara, Shuton, and Tsu- (97 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: KEN
2nd: Kirihara
3rd: Elegant
4th: Shuton
5th: K9Sbruce
5th: Javi
7th: Zenyou
7th: Tsu-

 

[TriTails]

With all due respect, I think RK is over-exaggerating about Luigi vs Kirby in terms of speed. 1.5 vs 1.57 run speed is... minimal at best IMO. It's no game-changer and most likely will never be. Airspeed is where Luigi loses preeeety bad but... Kirby's still one of the worst. Neither is going to chase anyone in the air so they'll still prefer the ground, which is where the differences are hardly noticeable, again.

Tbh it all depends on what kind of camping we're talking about. Projectile camping? I'd actually say Luigi has it better on how he walks faster, so you'll get farther before having to be put into shield. Fireballs also helps nullifying some projectiles such as DHD's frisbees or banana, and his dash to shield is faster. I guess Kirby's multiple jumps do assist him getting through some projectiles, but his airspeed is still one of the worst in the game. Worse, you could be harrassed with anti-airs since Kirby has no range like Luigi.

About the runaway camping... Luigi still has it better tbh. His reward is just that good, and you simply just can't ignore this part. Losing stage control against one of the most punishing characters in the game means making one mistake could lead to a fatal blow. Luigi racks up ludicrous amount of damage on fast-fallers with D-throw -> D-air (You see those 60+% combos Elegant does vs fast-fallers on a regular basis? Yeah, those) and even against floaties, he has solid options on D-throw -> U-air -> B-air for 31%/27%, that's like one third of your stock. Floaties are also susceptible to D-throw -> N-air/U-air -> Cyclone, a kill setup that can be mixed in with U-air to B-air (And kills pretty early with rage) to cover DIs. These are important because, since you're giving up stage control, you'll have to get through him, eventually, to continue camping. And what happens when you mess up/he reads your escape? Grab combo. Does your camping deal enough damage to compare? Depends on your character but most likely, no.

Oh, and if you're not dead but offstage, there's always Cyclone gimp you'll need to be wary of, and recovering high is a bad idea if he reads it (FJP or dashgrab). Then there's his ledge coverage options that are definitely yet to be optimized to keep him in advantage and possibly secure a kill.

Kinda more like how much you lose against him if you get hit than how he's less difficult to camp tbh. He may be easier to camp than Kirby, but his reward allows him to bring a lot back from being camped. Oftentimes, in order to feasibly camp him, you'll have to get a stock lead, else he will always have that option to turn the tables with combos.

Oh, and speaking of stock lead, Luigi sucks at getting it back. If he's down a stock, camp him out guys.

has a harder time ground approaching but at the same time a much better burst game and projectile than kirby. Fireball is really good at mid-range zoning and starting combos. His frame data is possibly the best in the game which gives Link less of a window to take advantage of. He escapes combos easier than Kirby. Luigi's high jumps make him more threatening on platform stages like BF than Kirby and that's a big + when it comes to approaching. Luigi's offstage game is quicker than Kirb's and tornado gimps are deadly at any %. Luigi generally has a scarier CQC and combo game too. But Luigi's traction vs Link's shield safety really hurts him.

To be fair, I think Luigi's best options for dealing with Link's projectile is to walk forward and powershield, with occasional crawling to reduce his hurtbox further (And reducing the slides). On the ground I think Luigi has it better than Kirby since his walk is faster and he can crawl.

Also, I don't think Luigi will want to shield any of Link's moves. He's much better trying to find an opening and capitalizing commitments instead of struggling with shield push. Luigi's best punishes often come from whiff-punishings and powershields, so I honestly never viewed Luigi's traction to be as bad as a problem people make it to be. Rolls are helpful and vital to Luigi's gameplan as long as they're not overused so I think Luigis should utilize them more instead.

That's not to say it doesn't suck when people F-smash your shield and you can't punish though.

PS: It's been a long while since the last I analyzed this game lol. Feel free to correct/ignore me if what I said were utter nonsense because I theorycrafted a bit there.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

To be fair, I think Luigi's best options for dealing with Link's projectile is to walk forward and powershield.

Also, I don't think Luigi will want to shield any of Link's moves.

Am I reading this the wrong way or was this a mistake? Thanks.

 

[kynlem]

Mm.

I'm not going to say much other than - Kirby poses more of a threat (however minor you believe that is) to more characters than anyone in his group.

Oh well.

until someone tells me a reason to approach kirby or tells me a way he can deal with platform/circle camping he will sit comfortably in bottom tier. just my opinion.

 

[|RK|]

Am I reading this the wrong way or was this a mistake? Thanks.

He's saying that powershield is the best way to get through Link's stuff, but he's also mentioning how Luigi's poor traction sucks if he doesn't powershield.

And Tritails - I agree that .07 isn't a huge difference between the two runspeeds. But the point is that Luigi is still slower - fact most people don't remember or don't know.

As for the rest... only trying to compare their ability to get camped out. So from that, yeah, Luigi has a better dash transition and better walk speed... But he also gets pushed back further for every non-powershield. He also has a slower initial dash before dash transition (1.2 something, compared to Kirby's 1.5), so Kirby technically gets in easier... But Luigi gets in better, if that makes sense (because he can act more quickly after getting in).

And then Kirby rebuilds speed after turning around a bit faster. And has a shorter skid.

But yeah - Luigi's damage output is pretty crazy. So that helps.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I don't see how anybody can say kirby is worst in the game when puff exists.

 

[Game7a1]

I don't see how anybody can say kirby is worst in the game when puff Mii Swordfighter 1111 exists.

I think you misspelled the actual worst character.
(Although I wouldn't fault you for not thinking it was Swordfighter. People seem to forget about Miis the most.)

Tongue-in-cheek aside (although I still think Swordfighter 1111 is a tier below everyone in the game), I am seeing more and more people excluding Miis from tier lists and matchup charts (or if they are included, they're in their own "who?" tier). I understand that people may not have enough data on them, but how is it possible they would have enough confidence (and data) to rank for the remaining 55 (others of which are uncommon or rare) but not the 3 Miis? I'd imagine that there would be enough data to at least study Mii Gunner given the fact that AEMher appears on 2GG's stream quite a bit and has made some upsets.