Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[kynlem]

Ness will never be high tier again.

Little to no representation at tournaments (for a good reason), No threatening projectile (sorry, PK Thunder isn't scaring anyone), and one of the worst recoveries in the game.

If Ness is forced to use PK Thunder off stage against pretty much anyone he is a sitting duck.

 

[|RK|]

1) As discussed, Larry is a prophet
2) Crazy that Scizor and T tied again lmao
3) Good to see Tsu proving Lucario is an absolutely amazing character
4) ZeRo when playing well is broken, man. Tweek was playing incredibly hot the whole tournament, but put up against ZeRo... All the same, Tweek's improvement is scary. When he makes it to the level where he can beat a ZeRo on top of his game, it'll be terrifying.

EDIT:

Ness typically shows up if his rep shows up. And PK Thunder tricks have continued to prove effective. Wouldn't count him out at all.

 

[TDK]

Link is looking more and more like a low high tier, or at least around the same level of competitiveness as DK and Bowser (though without being focused around a singular aspect of gameplay). I mean, there were the same number of Links in top 16 as Diddys, Bayos, Sonics, and Rosalinas.

A complete lack of Sheik probably helped, but still.

Actually, T fought a Sheik named Dragon, who took Dabuz to game 5 at the start of the year, for 33rd. He 3-0ed him.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness will never be high tier again.

Little to no representation at tournaments (for a good reason), No threatening projectile (sorry, PK Thunder isn't scaring anyone), and one of the worst recoveries in the game.

If Ness is forced to use PK Thunder off stage against pretty much anyone he is a sitting duck.

Not top 20, maybe top 25. I think 26-30 is the best spot for him. You don't see Ness at tournaments because his five best players don't go to anything. FOW comes and goes, Shaky is in school, S1 is in Europe and has been stateside once maybe twice, The Great Gonzales isn't able to travel outside of stuff near Tri State and depending on who you claim at number five BestNess is regional or Taranito/Gacktu are Japanese and have only been state side like once or twice. His best players quite frankly do not show up to stuff with any frequency like other high tier characters but when they do they frequently get top 32 at minimum and they continue to place very well in thier regions. His most active player NAKAT only uses him as a secondary for some MUs and uses him to super succes in Doubles.

While Ness trying to recover is hard it's no where near as terrible as you make it out to be I think people are under the impression he has Little Mac levels of off stage helplessness. And PKT is one of the best off stage/juggle tools in this game do not kid yourself. Many characters get tore alive by it when they are off stage or in the air. His projectiles aren't traditional projectiles they are for punishing and extensions not zoning/spacing.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Shulla-Bra XI (Japan) 116 entrants

1) Ri-Ma

2) FILIP

3) Mattun

4) Kome

5) Zaki

5) Pikazono

7) Hiro

7) Tarakotori

Anyone got vods to this tourney i need to see this falco and d3 footage?

 

[Lord Dio]

ESAM 3-0 Dabuz
Let's gooooooo esam!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Man, ESAM has become a sort of demon for Dabuz.

also. Mistake 3-2 Larry Lurr

 

[Lord Dio]

As sad as it was to watch Larry lose Game 5......he played amazing this set. That rage comeback game 2 was beautiful. If he played like that, and like Game 3, he could make a runback, and I really hope he does.

 

[Rizen]

I looked over Das Koopa's results thread for the past month and frankly Link falls short of characters like DK in long term results. is the same mid tier he always was. It's great he's getting results and his mostly even-ish MU spread+SSB4 upsets will keep even top tiers on their toes. But let's not jump the gun after every upset. Link has to space better and make more good calls than high tiers to win.

 

[Lord Dio]

LARRY
LARRY LURR
This man went Game 5 with Mistake then 3-0'ed everyone he met, Ally, Dabuz, and then Mistake.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Not top 20, maybe top 25. I think 26-30 is the best spot for him. You don't see Ness at tournaments because his five best players don't go to anything. FOW comes and goes, Shaky is in school, S1 is in Europe and has been stateside once maybe twice, The Great Gonzales isn't able to travel outside of stuff near Tri State and depending on who you claim at number five BestNess is regional or Taranito/Gacktu are Japanese and have only been state side like once or twice. His best players quite frankly do not show up to stuff with any frequency like other high tier characters but when they do they frequently get top 32 at minimum and they continue to place very well in thier regions. His most active player NAKAT only uses him as a secondary for some MUs and uses him to super succes in Doubles.

While Ness trying to recover is hard it's no where near as terrible as you make it out to be I think people are under the impression he has Little Mac levels of off stage helplessness. And PKT is one of the best off stage/juggle tools in this game do not kid yourself. Many characters get tore alive by it when they are off stage or in the air. His projectiles aren't traditional projectiles they are for punishing and extensions not zoning/spacing.

Interesting that you bring up all these players. Fatality recently said he was going to attempt Ness as a secondary.

 

[Rizen]

It would be nice to see Larry win a big event. He always does well and ends up in top 8 but doesn't seem to win anything.

 

[Lord Dio]

I'm so happy right now, that was beautiful.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

It would be nice to see Larry win a big event. He always does well and ends up in top 8 but doesn't seem to win anything.

Fear no longer!

Larry Lurr takes it over ESAM to win Dreamhack Montreal Singles!

3-2 first set
3-1 second set

 

[Lord Dio]

First time Larry's won a big event since Mexico Saga, iirc.
I would pay to see DHMTL Larry Lurr at every event.

 

[|RK|]

Shine came in so clutch lol. Solid work by Larry!

I looked over Das Koopa's results thread for the past month and frankly Link falls short of characters like DK in long term results. is the same mid tier he always was. It's great he's getting results and his mostly even-ish MU spread+SSB4 upsets will keep even top tiers on their toes. But let's not jump the gun after every upset. Link has to space better and make more good calls than high tiers to win.

Isn't that expected? DK gets results in pretty much every top 8 by someone who secondaries him. Link is rarer, especially at the high level. Scizor is typically nowhere to be found, and T doesn't attend THAT often in his own region. So yeah, his results should fall short. But if we're talking ability, I don't think it's that big a stretch.

 

[blackghost]

Good win for Larry.
But regarding link and greninja they are not high tiers. The bar to be considered and remain a high tier is a high bar, one not reached with one simple upset.
Greninja saga alone really hurt greninja in terms of moving up because all the frog mains were gone so early.
I am curious what to think about olimar tho.
Also Ness is a dead character he's limited, has poor matchup, and gets toyed with offstage (I mean that literally see lima on doubles).

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja saga isn't really much of a sign for Greninja because frog mains kept having to fight each other until there was only 1 left.

Besides didn't Ryu get a similar performance in the saga that was for him?

 

[Minordeth]

To be fair -
Greninja Saga had a hilarious(ly sad) amount of team kills.

Edit: Greninja'd by a Greninja.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Good win for Larry.
But regarding link and greninja they are not high tiers. The bar to be considered and remain a high tier is a high bar, one not reached with one simple upset.
Greninja saga alone really hurt greninja in terms of moving up because all the frog mains were gone so early.
I am curious what to think about olimar tho.
Also Ness is a dead character he's limited, has poor matchup, and gets toyed with offstage (I mean that literally see lima on doubles).

Regarding Greninja, that's your opinion, m8.

Plus it's not like other similar upsets happened this very year (*cough* Frostbite *cough*).

 

[Y2Kay]

But regarding link and greninja they are not high tiers.

Greninja has had top 20ish results for a little over a year now. If Greninja isn't a high tier who is?

 

[TDK]

DreamHack Montreal 2017 (241 Entrants) (Montreal)

1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: ESAM
3rd: Mistake
4th: Dabuz
5th: Ally
5th: ANTi
7th: Venom
7th: SuperGirlKels

 

[Emblem Lord]

How the **** is Greninja not high tier?

Like what in the unholy hell is going on in this life?

 

[C0rvus]

My headcanon is that Radical Larry is an Izaw smurf account.

 

[Ad3n]

Samsus in E tier? I have to disagree because of all that Esam has done with her

 

[TDK]

Samsus in E tier? I have to disagree because of all that Esam has done with her

That tier list was months ago, the meta has changed dramatically since then.

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Anyone got vods to this tourney i need to see this falco and d3 footage?

You can still find them on the shi gaming twitch chat I think. Vods are called shulla Bra XI

 

[Rizen]

Shine came in so clutch lol. Solid work by Larry!



Isn't that expected? DK gets results in pretty much every top 8 by someone who secondaries him. Link is rarer, especially at the high level. Scizor is typically nowhere to be found, and T doesn't attend THAT often in his own region. So yeah, his results should fall short. But if we're talking ability, I don't think it's that big a stretch.

IMO if Link were at DK's level more people would have picked him up and gotten results by now. DK has better mobility, frame data and ding dong that kills at 65-110%ish (situation depending). The frame data and speed DK has is ridiculous for a heavyweight with that grab game. Mobility's big, look at Toon Link and DH consistently outplacing slower footsie zoners like Link. Link's more of a jack of all trades, master of none who can kill off various confirms at 110-140%+. Link has a better disadvantage and really good landing options on his side.
DK has other tools but ding dong is just too good on a grappler like him, this also applies to Bowser to a lesser extent. Link has to work harder to space and get those kills. /imo

edit, is the DK taunt pic not showing?
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dk-4.png?w=580&h=435

PS, yes Greninja's high tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Good win for Larry.
But regarding link and greninja they are not high tiers. The bar to be considered and remain a high tier is a high bar, one not reached with one simple upset.
Greninja saga alone really hurt greninja in terms of moving up because all the frog mains were gone so early.
I am curious what to think about olimar tho.
Also Ness is a dead character he's limited, has poor matchup, and gets toyed with offstage (I mean that literally see lima on doubles).

Dead in what sense? That he will likely never have a player as good as FOW again? That's a possibility but I can't say that for sure. Dead as in his meta will go no where? It's slowed down alot but there is still room for improvement he has a few tricks that aren't too common yet. I know a lot of people seem to believe he is some average character but I would like to remind people he has consistently stayed in the Top 25 range of Das' results for most of the year,that's not a dead character

I agree he's not a top tier he has no business being 13th on the last tier list but I will continue to claim that he is no worse than 30.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I agree he's not a top tier he has no business being 13th on the last tier list but I will continue to claim that he is no worse than 30.

Which tier list has him at 13th?

 

[The-Technique]

IMO if Link were at DK's level more people would have picked him up and gotten results by now. DK has better mobility, frame data and ding dong that kills at 65-110%ish (situation depending). The frame data and speed DK has is ridiculous for a heavyweight with that grab game. Mobility's big, look at Toon Link and DH consistently outplacing slower footsie zoners like Link. Link's more of a jack of all trades, master of none who can kill off various confirms at 110-140%+. Link has a better disadvantage and really good landing options on his side.
DK has other tools but ding dong is just too good on a grappler like him, this also applies to Bowser to a lesser extent. Link has to work harder to space and get those kills. /imo

Hmm I wouldn't say quite say that. DK is a lot easier to pick up compared to Link, who requires a lot of commitment and practice to play optimally with. The first time Tweek 3-0'd MK Leo with solo DK at an MSM tourny, Tweek mentioned in his interview that he doesn't even know Ding Dong percents. DK only needs good fundamentals, while Link requires more knowledge and precision on top of good fundamentals.

 

[Radical Larry]

My headcanon is that Radical Larry is an Izaw smurf account.

My headcanon is that Radical Larry is now an artist who spends less time on Smash.

Which tier list has him at 13th?

The very first tier list has Ness at 13th. That's not even the "last tier list"; he was 16th on the last one.

 

[blackghost]

Greninja has had top 20ish results for a little over a year now. If Greninja isn't a high tier who is?

When did top tier become 20ish? When a character is celebrated for doing well it isn't routine. Characters that make good results routinely are top tiers.
The options for greninja mains are either they aren't good enough to win consistently or the character isn't good enough to win consistently.

@Envy of choas

Ness is a character that hasn't had any major meta developments is a long time. It doesn't help that Ness best players don't attend much but I can only judge what i see in tournament play and ness doesn't have much.

 

[FullMoon]

When did top tier become 20ish?

Never. We're saying Greninja is high tier, not top tier. He's good, but not good enough to consistently place high in stacked tournaments due to bad MUs against the best characters.

 

[Heracr055]

^I think he's calling top 20 results high tier, not top.

Edit: Greninja'ed

 

[|RK|]

IMO if Link were at DK's level more people would have picked him up and gotten results by now. DK has better mobility, frame data and ding dong that kills at 65-110%ish (situation depending). The frame data and speed DK has is ridiculous for a heavyweight with that grab game. Mobility's big, look at Toon Link and DH consistently outplacing slower footsie zoners like Link. Link's more of a jack of all trades, master of none who can kill off various confirms at 110-140%+. Link has a better disadvantage and really good landing options on his side.
DK has other tools but ding dong is just too good on a grappler like him, this also applies to Bowser to a lesser extent. Link has to work harder to space and get those kills. /imo

edit, is the DK taunt pic not showing?
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dk-4.png?w=580&h=435

PS, yes Greninja's high tier.

No not necessarily. Pikachu is the most perfect example of that. But more importantly, DK and Bowser have so much rep in large part due to their simplicity. No one is going to pick up Link for a matchup or two - you have to be legitimately good with the character.

 

[Kofu]

@Envy of choas

Ness is a character that hasn't had any major meta developments is a long time. It doesn't help that Ness best players don't attend much but I can only judge what i see in tournament play and ness doesn't have much.

Ness just fundamentally has stronger options than a lot of the cast. All that talk about DK's and Bowser's simplicity kind of holds true for Ness, too. His aerials do heavy damage and three have very generous hitboxes (and four autocancel), he has a strong grab game with what is probably the best kill throw in the game, he's got decent weight, and his ledge guarding game is strong. He's obviously held back by mobility, range, and recovery, but he'll probably stay in the top half of the cast just on virtue of his strengths.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

When did top tier become 20ish? When a character is celebrated for doing well it isn't routine. Characters that make good results routinely are top tiers.
The options for greninja mains are either they aren't good enough to win consistently or the character isn't good enough to win consistently.

@Envy of choas

Ness is a character that hasn't had any major meta developments is a long time. It doesn't help that Ness best players don't attend much but I can only judge what i see in tournament play and ness doesn't have much.

That makes sense and I can agree with that. Ness can get by without using a lot of tricks and just playing really well fundamentally (The Great Gonzales is a good example of a really "basic" Ness that does well) most of his meta development has been just general his players making better decisions, playing more sound and not dropping combos and just general gameplay improvement which all is more player things than Ness things but his players still aren't abusing PKT as much as you can in alot of MUs, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use his footstool combos and his platform game is still developing. Ive seen some crazy things come from some JP Ness' recently.

There is some cool things coming along I hope they get adapted by the top level Ness players.

 

[Minordeth]

I think I'm more optimistic about Greninja than his mains, probably. I see a character that has the overall best mobility in the game, the ability to actually play anti-air and footsies well, with a range of near Fox-like options for quick damage combos off of most of his buttons, a great recovery, and a tricky disadvantage. Plus! a great projectile.

I could be off base, but I think it seems like his top mains have traditionally gotten caught up in trying to force opportunities to happen for high damage, rather than taking advantage of opportunities that do happen.

In other words, play like Bayo wants to play: force an approach, get a lead, actually camp, force another approach, capitalize on what you can while being evasive because you are probably the most evasive character in the game, then use your kill power to actually seal stocks. Do this and don't try to force your 60% drag down Uair footstool combo, and you are set.

 

[Kofu]

I think I'm more optimistic about Greninja than his mains, probably. I see a character that has the overall best mobility in the game, the ability to actually play anti-air and footsies well, with a range of near Fox-like options for quick damage combos off of most of his buttons, a great recovery, and a tricky disadvantage. Plus! a great projectile.

I could be off base, but I think it seems like his top mains have traditionally gotten caught up in trying to force opportunities to happen for high damage, rather than taking advantage of opportunities that do happen.

In other words, play like Bayo wants to play: force an approach, get a lead, actually camp, force another approach, capitalize on what you can while being evasive because you are probably the most evasive character in the game, then use your kill power to actually seal stocks. Do this and don't try to force your 60% drag down Uair footstool combo, and you are set.

You're probably right in that Greninja needs to play evasively. His frame data doesn't really lend itself to overwhelming CQC like Fox can (he also has pretty terrible OoS options).