Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Normally I would give no opinions on placing people in tiers, but I would say all 1111 Mii's are bottom tier until they are free.
#FreeMiis

I have seen in handful of tier lists where players would stick Mii Fighters in the bottom saying that they do not have enough experience fighting them.

It still suprises me that giving Mii Fighters all of their moves is hard. If at worst, the small Mii Brawler crisis (or Red Scare) would feel similar to what players call "overcentralization" for Cloud and Bayonetta at locals until either they suck it up and play the game (work on finding counterplay or tough it out) or give up because they feel like they cannot play the game anymore.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

Let me drop some knowledge on you guys. I'm terrible at this game so none of this means anything.

Mi sword man is cool, alright? He's so ****ing cool. **** anyone who thinks otherwise. Have you seen his up air? It's like a falcon knee, but up. That move is ****ing bananas bro. And don't even get me started on his uh.. i cant think of anything else. His fsmash has a tipper though, did you know that? Also, mii swordfighter actually has one of the top 10 projectiles in game. Shuriken of light is literally, LITTERALLY supreme. I tested it myself in classic mode, your enemies wont know what hit em!

But nah, let me be serious. Mii swordfighjter is actually terrible. Your'e right he is much worse than jigglypuff i would say. but I want to play him. Add me on nintendo guys i got the zero mii costume for swordfighter which makes him like 99% cooler.

Wait I have one more thing to say. Is luigi better than Mario now?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

 

[Y2Kay]

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

This is quite easily the greatest way I've seen someone start a post on smashboards.

 

[Kofu]

Mii Swordfighter is, moveset-wise, pretty similar to Cloud, but he lacks any notable mobility whatsoever. He also has similarities to Link and Kirby(???). DTilt is actually numerically better than Marth's (not sure about hitboxes though). He has an okay grab game, which is nice. Still a bad character. Shuriken of Light is pretty rad and unique as far as projectiles go AFAIK. Remember when Trela won a tournament with default Swordfighter? Good times.

Mii Brawler suffers horribly from a lack of kill options in 1111 form. Recovery is also an issue no matter what Up-B you pick. Nonetheless a ridiculously mobile and slippery character even in default form. Smawler's air speed beats Yoshi's and may even surpass Metal Gear Limit Cloud's air speed. If you want comparisons to other characters, think of a blend between Mario and Fox with a smattering without their threatening x-factor options (as 1111; Helicopter Kick is busted). No kill throws except for FThrow as an extreme stock cap at the ledge. DAir autocancels and is surprisingly good at killing grounded opponents.

Gunner has the most functional 1111 moveset but the character is still weak. Very poor mobility in default size. Has a strong keep-away game with okay CQC options that mainly serve to create more space. Similar to a blend between Villager and Samus with a smattering of Duck Hunt, as the character has a normal grab, which is cool for a zoner. My understanding is that Gunner has the most options for viable options for specials ( AEMehr confirm or deny?). Largest size Gunner has a bigger FSmash than Corrin (but why would you do that to yourself).

The Miis are pretty much universally better small, the increase in mobility far exceeds the minor, nearly negligible reductions in damage, and helps to make up for the loss in range. Still, I can understand why the default size would be standard (requires outside-game input). I'd seriously consider picking up Gunner if I could choose my specials.

#FreeMii

 

[Lord Dio]

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

I think that's a level many aspire to reach.

Side note, something I've been wondering, what about Lucario makes him so good besides aura? Surely that mechanic can't carry him up multiple tiers........

 

[Asdioh]

I don't know about 2nd worst in the game, but Kirby is pretty clearly not good for competitive play. He was the only character I really enjoyed, thus why I've barely touched this game in the past year or so

RK mentioned his poor vertical mobility briefly, but I think it needs to be emphasized more. This attribute, plus the aforementioned burst options, are the reason why Luigi is not overall slower than Kirby. It's the same reason Greninja's mobility is exceptional: yeah he can run quickly, but being able to quickly cover vertical distances (both ascending, and descending) is a huge asset. Same with Falco as well, his mobility generally sucks, but having a high/fast jump is one of his best traits. Having multiple air jumps, or more specifically, not having a speedy air jump that covers good distance, seems like a liability in this game. It's one of many reasons that Kirby feels like a crappier version of Mario, and even Dr. Mario. Not only does Kirby's poor horizontal airspeed prevent would-be followups from comboing horizontally, but his 5 jumps are too slow to follow up vertically.

Kirby just has no vertical threat, which contributes to circle camping.
Kirby: Frame 4 jumpsquat, frame 10 Upair, bottom tier height/speed coverered by jumping.
Luigi: Frame 5 jumpsquat, frame 5 Upair, pretty good height/speed covered by jumping.

This is why the custom Upper Cutter was so vital for his viability. It made his recovery go from terrible to top tier, and it gave him actual vertical threat, meaning people had to be careful if they chose to just run.

 

[Krysco]

If outside game input was an issue, none of the dlc characters would be legal, at least initially (correct me if I'm wrong on this but the eshop option on the menu wasn't there once Mewtwo came out. Didn't come out till after iirc). I'm still of the belief that if even one of the default Mii's was small, then Mii's would be free. Pretty sure the Wii U version only has default Mii's for Smash Tour anyways since there's no guarantee that you'll have at least 4 Mii's made on Mii Maker. 3DS version didn't come with premade Mii's I believe.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

Let me drop some knowledge on you guys. I'm terrible at this game so none of this means anything.

Mi sword man is cool, alright? He's so ****ing cool. **** anyone who thinks otherwise. Have you seen his up air? It's like a falcon knee, but up. That move is ****ing bananas bro. And don't even get me started on his uh.. i cant think of anything else. His fsmash has a tipper though, did you know that? Also, mii swordfighter actually has one of the top 10 projectiles in game. Shuriken of light is literally, LITTERALLY supreme. I tested it myself in classic mode, your enemies wont know what hit em!

But nah, let me be serious. Mii swordfighjter is actually terrible. Your'e right he is much worse than jigglypuff i would say. but I want to play him. Add me on nintendo guys i got the zero mii costume for swordfighter which makes him like 99% cooler.

Wait I have one more thing to say. Is luigi better than Mario now?

Mods please don't delete this needs to be archived

Also can anyone explain who's better between brawler 1111 and swordfighter 1111? Don't know much about miis

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

His playerbase, specators reactions, notable wins, that zero set where everyone lost their mind, disjoints on aerials, rage, frmae data, and probably a mix of matchup and player inexperience.

EDIT: That's how I see it until someone punish's Tsu for his Aura Spheres. Speaking of Aura Spheres, he has those shield/ledge traps and if he lands one on you, he can true combo or get an airdodge read into an attack.

I know the Beefy Smash Doods made a video that shows a good portion of the cast an option they have to get around the setup or make it less threatning if anyone remembers that video.

I think that's a level many aspire to reach.

Side note, something I've been wondering, what about Lucario makes him so good besides aura? Surely that mechanic can't carry him up multiple tiers........

 

[|RK|]

I don't know about 2nd worst in the game, but Kirby is pretty clearly not good for competitive play. He was the only character I really enjoyed, thus why I've barely touched this game in the past year or so

RK mentioned his poor vertical mobility briefly, but I think it needs to be emphasized more. This attribute, plus the aforementioned burst options, are the reason why Luigi is not overall slower than Kirby. It's the same reason Greninja's mobility is exceptional: yeah he can run quickly, but being able to quickly cover vertical distances (both ascending, and descending) is a huge asset. Same with Falco as well, his mobility generally sucks, but having a high/fast jump is one of his best traits. Having multiple air jumps, or more specifically, not having a speedy air jump that covers good distance, seems like a liability in this game. It's one of many reasons that Kirby feels like a crappier version of Mario, and even Dr. Mario. Not only does Kirby's poor horizontal airspeed prevent would-be followups from comboing horizontally, but his 5 jumps are too slow to follow up vertically.

Kirby just has no vertical threat, which contributes to circle camping.
Kirby: Frame 4 jumpsquat, frame 10 Upair, bottom tier height/speed coverered by jumping.
Luigi: Frame 5 jumpsquat, frame 5 Upair, pretty good height/speed covered by jumping.

This is why the custom Upper Cutter was so vital for his viability. It made his recovery go from terrible to top tier, and it gave him actual vertical threat, meaning people had to be careful if they chose to just run.

Keep in mind you had to mention Falco's mobility sucks, in spite of his amazing vertical threat. You also have to have the other attributes.

EDIT: Anyways, I've gone on enough about the character.

 

[AEMehr]

I think you misspelled the actual worst character.
(Although I wouldn't fault you for not thinking it was Swordfighter. People seem to forget about Miis the most.)

Tongue-in-cheek aside (although I still think Swordfighter 1111 is a tier below everyone in the game), I am seeing more and more people excluding Miis from tier lists and matchup charts (or if they are included, they're in their own "who?" tier). I understand that people may not have enough data on them, but how is it possible they would have enough confidence (and data) to rank for the remaining 55 (others of which are uncommon or rare) but not the 3 Miis? I'd imagine that there would be enough data to at least study Mii Gunner given the fact that AEMher appears on 2GG's stream quite a bit and has made some upsets.

we can agree mii sword sucks but he can still gimp a decent amount of characters (including no limit cloud) at zero% reliably lol

its just getting that situation and playing the game are the difficult parts lol
- - -

My understanding is that Gunner has the most options for viable options for specials ( AEMehr confirm or deny?).

That would arguably go to Swordfighter IMO. Mii Gunner's specials are pretty good overall, but for default size there's only like two / three sets worth using. 1112/1312/1111 IMO
- - -

If outside game input was an issue, none of the dlc characters would be legal, at least initially (correct me if I'm wrong on this but the eshop option on the menu wasn't there once Mewtwo came out. Didn't come out till after iirc). I'm still of the belief that if even one of the default Mii's was small, then Mii's would be free. Pretty sure the Wii U version only has default Mii's for Smash Tour anyways since there's no guarantee that you'll have at least 4 Mii's made on Mii Maker. 3DS version didn't come with premade Mii's I believe.

Every system with Miis included has 6 default Miis built in the system itself. There is no real reason why Miis should never be legal, special moves are a different beast altogether.

Mods please don't delete this needs to be archived

Also can anyone explain who's better between brawler 1111 and swordfighter 1111? Don't know much about miis

Brawler's better because he can combo and has actual good movement and a grab game. Just no killing combo enders and bad recovery.

Sword is similar to Brawler, only a lot slower with no safe moves he can toss out. He can gimp a fair amount of the cast with dair but it's risky since his recovery is also kinda shoddy and save your opponent if you try to recover to ledge.

Both of them aren't that great, but Brawler excels in more things than Sword and is arguably harder to fight against because of that.

 

[Rizen]

Mods please don't delete this needs to be archived

Also can anyone explain who's better between brawler 1111 and swordfighter 1111? Don't know much about miis

I actually learned to play all 3 miis, for some reason, and can confidently say is better (all 1111). has good mobility and decent power. The real flaws are lack of range and approaching. Brawler isn't good but he does alright as a semi-grappler/ bait and punish character. Shot pull is strong but slow; it has uses at the ledge, platforms and from a distance but no real zoning value.
is the only ssb4 character I consider a train wreck. On paper he doesn't seem bad with disjoint, decent frame data and a versatile moveset. In practice it just doesn't work. gets out-zoned by zoners, out ranged by swordies, outdrawn by fast characters at CQC and has terrible mobility. Uair is good though.
For good measure, has a decent moveset except for being undertuned. He's too weak to keep up with other characters, especially in ssb4 where you see things like ding dong and Limit CS.

 

[TDK]

have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

New Signature quote, right here.

 

[Kofu]

That would arguably go to Swordfighter IMO. Mii Gunner's specials are pretty good overall, but for default size there's only like two / three sets worth using. 1112/1312/1111 IMO

You don't feel like Grenade Launch is worth using on default size? I find the move's flexibility generally more useful than Charge Blast. The latter just feels underwhelming and is probably the worst of the high-damage chargeable projectiles. It can't be charged in the air and does less damage than Samus's (the only other one with that restriction). Even Sun Salutation, while the weakest overall, has its merits; the windbox while charging can interrupt opponents, and it has the added bonus of healing WFT.

I'm aware that there are kill setups for Charge Blast and I'm probably underselling those (as weak as the move seems), but are kill setups the main reason to pick Charge Blast over Grenade Launch? You have a lot more experience with the character so I'd love to hear your input.

I also am a fan of Cannon Uppercut but can understand why that wouldn't be as desirable.

 

[Game7a1]

we can agree mii sword sucks but he can still gimp a decent amount of characters (including no limit cloud) at zero% reliably lol

its just getting that situation and playing the game are the difficult parts lol

Oh, I know that. He has a decent edgeguard game, especially for sending opponents downwards (while I think D-air is superior to Stone Scabbard in sending opponents down, the latter is at least a recovery move and a spike, like Aether). It's also good that both moves have good landing hitboxes for on-stage utility.

is the only ssb4 character I consider a train wreck. On paper he doesn't seem bad with disjoint, decent frame data and a versatile moveset. In practice it just doesn't work. gets out-zoned by zoners, out ranged by swordies, outdrawn by fast characters at CQC and has terrible mobility. Uair is good though.

If he didn't have a frame 7 jump-squat and a slow air acceleration, he'd probably be noticeably better because most of his aerials are pretty good. As well, his recovery is worse than Brawler's, so he's prone to be edgeguarded himself, but Airborne Assault has surprising KO power, so he's not free off-stage.

 

[AEMehr]

You don't feel like Grenade Launch is worth using on default size? I find the move's flexibility generally more useful than Charge Blast. The latter just feels underwhelming and is probably the worst of the high-damage chargeable projectiles. It can't be charged in the air and does less damage than Samus's (the only other one with that restriction). Even Sun Salutation, while the weakest overall, has its merits; the windbox while charging can interrupt opponents, and it has the added bonus of healing WFT.

I'm aware that there are kill setups for Charge Blast and I'm probably underselling those (as weak as the move seems), but are kill setups the main reason to pick Charge Blast over Grenade Launch? You have a lot more experience with the character so I'd love to hear your input.

I also am a fan of Cannon Uppercut but can understand why that wouldn't be as desirable.

I've discussed the use of Grenade Launch with @Wii Twerk Trainer and @Protom quite a bit and it's universally agreed that the big thing about Grenade is the movement options it allows. These options aren't useful for Gunner at default weight, but really helps small Gunner immensely. The idea is to weave in and out shoot Grenades, just making the stage a war zone. Default Gunner is far too slow to really do half of what the small one can. In addition to the nerf awhile back, if your opponent catches on to the fact that it literally loses to everything you've lost the mental threat it gives. The only real merit Grenade Launch has for default Gunner is edge-guarding, covering ledge, (things two of you other potential tools, Flame Pillar and Bomb Drop, do just as easily) and covering areas with it's unique arch (Charged Blast does the same, but only straight obv).

Charged Blast on the other is still a Charge Shot. It confirms from Fair at low %s, giving 28% total from two hits. It theoretically is also a kill confirm, but I've never had it work in a real match since fair stales hard.
It charges faster than Samus', has less end lag too. A flame pillar to charge shot will also work on several cast members off ledge, and versus reflector based characters you could Reflect it back or Absorb it depending on your Down Special. It's also a potent shield-breaking tool when utilized with Missiles or Bomb Drop.

Simply put it fit's default Gunner's niche better as a turtle-based fighter that can retreat > charge > return to battle. Grenade fits small Gunner 's niche of never staying in one place for too long, she's always on the move and Grenade is easy to toss out; this is on top of it allowing to change your movement all together.


And yeah, Cannon Uppercut is cool, but your recovery is already pretty mediocre. I can definitely see more use of it for the smaller Gunner though. With Grenade you can cover yourself better and her air movement will allow her to get closer to ledge, so recovering with it would be a loooot safer.

- - -

Oh, I know that. He has a decent edgeguard game, especially for sending opponents downwards (while I think D-air is superior to Stone Scabbard in sending opponents down, the latter is at least a recovery move and a spike, like Aether). It's also good that both moves have good landing hitboxes for on-stage utility.

Well assuming they don't hold shield yes, haha.

If he didn't have a frame 7 jump-squat and a slow air acceleration, he'd probably be noticeably better because most of his aerials are pretty good. As well, his recovery is worse than Brawler's, so he's prone to be edgeguarded himself, but Airborne Assault has surprising KO power, so he's not free off-stage.

If he didn't have that jump-squat he'd be so much better ;-;

he's also hella free off-stage you kidding? just get hit by AA and he's dead lol

 

[Kofu]

I've discussed the use of Grenade Launch with @Wii Twerk Trainer and @Protom quite a bit and it's universally agreed that the big thing about Grenade is the movement options it allows. These options aren't useful for Gunner at default weight, but really helps small Gunner immensely. The idea is to weave in and out shoot Grenades, just making the stage a war zone. Default Gunner is far too slow to really do half of what the small one can. In addition to the nerf awhile back, if your opponent catches on to the fact that it literally loses to everything you've lost the mental threat it gives. The only real merit Grenade Launch has for default Gunner is edge-guarding, covering ledge, (things two of you other potential tools, Flame Pillar and Bomb Drop, do just as easily) and covering areas with it's unique arch (Charged Blast does the same, but only straight obv).

Charged Blast on the other is still a Charge Shot. It confirms from Fair at low %s, giving 28% total from two hits. It theoretically is also a kill confirm, but I've never had it work in a real match since fair stales hard.
It charges faster than Samus', has less end lag too. A flame pillar to charge shot will also work on several cast members off ledge, and versus reflector based characters you could Reflect it back or Absorb it depending on your Down Special. It's also a potent shield-breaking tool when utilized with Missiles or Bomb Drop.

Simply put it fit's default Gunner's niche better as a turtle-based fighter that can retreat > charge > return to battle. Grenade fits small Gunner 's niche of never staying in one place for too long, she's always on the move and Grenade is easy to toss out; this is on top of it allowing to change your movement all together.


And yeah, Cannon Uppercut is cool, but your recovery is already pretty mediocre. I can definitely see more use of it for the smaller Gunner though. With Grenade you can cover yourself better and her air movement will allow her to get closer to ledge, so recovering with it would be a loooot safer.

I can appreciate that; like you said (implied, anyway), a Charge Shot-type move is pretty much always an asset. I was going to ask if Charge Blast released faster than Samus's from full charge too (I'm assuming the less endlag comment is after firing, and I wasn't aware of it charging quicker). I don't think it's a bad move, I just generally prefer Grenade Launch (it's honestly one of my favorite attacks in this game). Unfortunately the patch that stopped it detonating on hitboxes turned it from a nearly broken attack to a still useful, but far less imposing, one.

 

[AEMehr]

I can appreciate that; like you said (implied, anyway), a Charge Shot-type move is pretty much always an asset. I was going to ask if Charge Blast released faster than Samus's from full charge too (I'm assuming the less endlag comment is after firing, and I wasn't aware of it charging quicker). I don't think it's a bad move, I just generally prefer Grenade Launch (it's honestly one of my favorite attacks in this game). Unfortunately the patch that stopped it detonating on hitboxes turned it from a nearly broken attack to a still useful, but far less imposing, one.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Grenade!

When I started using Mii Gunner back in jan. 2015 I used 3122. I still enjoy using it on Default size too, I just think Charged Blast covers more MUs / situs than Grenade with default size.

 

[mimgrim]

Quick pop in from my silent lurking but I would think Cannon Uppercut would actually suit default size Gunner's play-style quite well actually, since it is more turtle based. Granted it lessens his recovery distance and angles but I don't think its such a huge detractor when his other Up specials aren;t really that amazing in the recovering department area as is. But it does give him a scary OoS option that can kill and just another strong button to have to scare off the opponent and be more careful when trying to approach due to its power. Also, while its super rare to land, getting to spike with it feels oh so good. I think the pros of it far out weigh the cons when the other Up Specials aren't all that good with recovering in the first place and while Uppercut is still worse then both of them at recovering it compensates him in other areas that much better while suiting his play-style in pretty much all sizes.

 

[AEMehr]

Quick pop in from my silent lurking but I would think Cannon Uppercut would actually suit default size Gunner's play-style quite well actually, since it is more turtle based. Granted it lessens his recovery distance and angles but I don't think its such a huge detractor when his other Up specials aren;t really that amazing in the recovering department area as is. But it does give him a scary OoS option that can kill and just another strong button to have to scare off the opponent and be more careful when trying to approach due to its power. Also, while its super rare to land, getting to spike with it feels oh so good. I think the pros of it far out weigh the cons when the other Up Specials aren't all that good with recovering in the first place and while Uppercut is still worse then both of them at recovering it compensates him in other areas that much better while suiting his play-style in pretty much all sizes.

I believe Lunar Launch is better primarily because it's a better recovery move- as you said. The projectile it shoots can stage spike opponents recovering low that lack hitboxes on their recoveries, and Gunner can return from pretty deep with it. Since you get edge guarded easy already, better to have a real chance to make it back to stage than to be a Little Mac IMO.

There is generally less opportunities for the OoS option then you recovering. The reason for this is because of pressure. Sheik will push you off stage practically every time she touches you, so you need that ability to make it back.

CU is satisfying to land, but it's not worth your recovery in my experience.

 

[Routa]

I will just say that frame 11 OoS option with next to no range is meh at best.
I may write more about Miis later (atm in work).

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I think you misspelled the actual worst character.
(Although I wouldn't fault you for not thinking it was Swordfighter. People seem to forget about Miis the most.)

Tongue-in-cheek aside (although I still think Swordfighter 1111 is a tier below everyone in the game), I am seeing more and more people excluding Miis from tier lists and matchup charts (or if they are included, they're in their own "who?" tier). I understand that people may not have enough data on them, but how is it possible they would have enough confidence (and data) to rank for the remaining 55 (others of which are uncommon or rare) but not the 3 Miis? I'd imagine that there would be enough data to at least study Mii Gunner given the fact that AEMher appears on 2GG's stream quite a bit and has made some upsets.

There are several similarities between puff and kirby, they share most of the same weaknesses at the very least. I was making a compaison between kirby and puff due to these similarities, rather than just picking the "worst" character in the game.

 

[Guido65]

Mods please don't delete this needs to be archived

Also can anyone explain who's better between brawler 1111 and swordfighter 1111? Don't know much about miis

I believe 1111 brawler is worse then 1111 mii swordfighter. People really don't know how much feint jump and piston punch/helicopter kick matter for the character. Those moves alone alleviate the massive flaws brawler has in advantage state(closing out the stock) and disadvantage state(exploitable as hell recovery) and mask them. They don't mask the major issues he has in neutral however. In 1111 his ability to close out stocks is among the worst in the game due to him having very few reliable kill options. Mii swordfighter on the other hand has a far more workable neutral game primarily thanks to his solid ground game primarily with jab 1 and great set of tilts especially down tilt alongside having an amazing walk + a good dash grab/dash attack and also has a solid combo + grab game going for him not to mention he has realistically usable kill options that aren't commital(his amazing back air which has good frame data all around and is even a good neutral tool, his up air,forward tilt at the ledge at high %'s all of which are far less commital likely then brawler's kill options). His disadvantage state is still poor and he is combo food(the invincibility on up b helps a lot though) but I think the things I've mentioned about swordfighter make him a better character. There is also a ton of misinformation about swordie but I won't get to that in this post.

 

[Game7a1]

he's also hella free off-stage you kidding? just get hit by AA and he's dead lol

I should have said "completely free" rather than "free". AA reminds me too much of Rollout when hitting a shield.

There are several similarities between puff and kirby, they share most of the same weaknesses at the very least. I was making a compaison between kirby and puff due to these similarities, rather than just picking the "worst" character in the game.

Ah, I didn't catch that. Sorry.

 

[|RK|]

There are several similarities between puff and kirby, they share most of the same weaknesses at the very least. I was making a compaison between kirby and puff due to these similarities, rather than just picking the "worst" character in the game.

Okay, I will say this - Kirby and Puff are extremely dissimilar. In fact, outside of having multiple jumps and short range, I struggle to find similarities.

(Okay, some Smash attacks have similar animations)

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Okay, I will say this - Kirby and Puff are extremely dissimilar. In fact, outside of having multiple jumps and short range, I struggle to find similarities.

(Okay, some Smash attacks have similar animations)

They specifically share the same weaknesses. Low weight, small range attacks, low mobility, weak approach options. Puff is worse in all of these except maybe mobility.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

They specifically share the same weaknesses. Low weight, small range attacks, low mobility, weak approach options. Puff is worse in all of these except maybe mobility.

Kirby might honestly be worse at approaching than Puff. At least the latter has great air mobility and faster aerials.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I'd disagree, but I haven't ever played kirby, so this is only from playing others. It seems that kirby's down air is a decent approaching option given its autocanceling and its combo potential. Puff's best approach option is short-hop nair.

 

[ARGHETH]

They specifically share the same weaknesses. Low weight, small range attacks, low mobility, weak approach options. Puff is worse in all of these except maybe mobility.

I'd say top tier air speed and air acceleration definitely outweighs the below average run speed and bottom half walk speed Kirby has.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Kiby's run speed is still faster than puff's air speed tho.

 

[|RK|]

Dair is a very poor approach option. Kirby basically approaches in the same way Mario does, without the option of an aerial approach in most cases. Rolls, feints, etc.

Very bait and punish neutral. Occasionally a bair as well. Kirby's bair is quick, and he does have good air acceleration, even if not good air speed.

It's something ZeRo mentioned in a video before, but Jiggs lack of a ground game hurts her a lot. Kirby's ability to do things on the ground makes his approaches safer (even if still trash overall).

EDIT: Also, we *just* discussed how jump-ins are pretty much the bread and butter for a number of characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

Kiby's run speed is still faster than puff's air speed tho.

Robin's run speed is faster than the air speeds of Cloud, Sheik, Falcon, and 41 other characters, because run speed is way faster than air speed in general. If Puff's run speed were her air speed, she'd still be in the top ten.

If it were closer, then it wouldn't be much of an issue, but this is literally second best versus bottom five.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

How does Kirby do against Ryu then? Both are very much hindered by the fact that they can be circle camped. If Kirby was to fight Ryu they would pretty much both have to do a lot of close quarters combat which Kirby isn't really that bad at as long as the opponent has to play the same game like Ryu does. Also, Ryu Kirby is pretty good and with a duck that goes under a lot of Ryu's stuff and poking with downtilt, It's probably Kirby's best matchup among high tiers.

I mean, I know Kirby would still lose the matchup probably, I'm just hoping you guys have something interesting to say about it.

 

[theMichael]

Kirby with monado is pretty good...

 

[|RK|]

How does Kirby do against Ryu then? Both are very much hindered by the fact that they can be circle camped. If Kirby was to fight Ryu they would pretty much both have to do a lot of close quarters combat which Kirby isn't really that bad at as long as the opponent has to play the same game like Ryu does. Also, Ryu Kirby is pretty good and with a duck that goes under a lot of Ryu's stuff and poking with downtilt, It's probably Kirby's best matchup among high tiers.

I mean, I know Kirby would still lose the matchup probably, I'm just hoping you guys have something interesting to say about it.

I think it's even, as do a number of people.

Highest level evidence we have though is Poyo beating THUNDER (aka Falgod, the Ryu who beat Tweek at SSC) at Shine.

It's a very neutral-heavy MU IMO. Neither have any reason to approach the other, and they can both punish pretty hard. Ryu has the benefit of a kill confirm, ofc.

 

[Rizen]

Can't RAR Bair?

It would be cool if 's broken shield caused an explosion that killed the opponent too #mindgames #everythingneedsahashtag

 

[TDK]

https://smash.gg/tournament/the-big-house-7/shop/compendium-20

2GG isn't the only one to do compendiums. There's 5 players on here, once one of them gets funded out someone else from their region will be added.

- Yura (Mexico)
- S1 (Europe)
- Pugwest (USA)
- Captain L (Canada)
- Suinoko (Japan)

Also 2GG's trying to put these people on the compendium for FE saga, should they respond to a DM from 2GG:

- San (@san.)
- Waldo
- Athena
- Hyper Kirby
- Matsudoku
- Kogarasuma
- Mad Ice King
- Tsuna
- Plastic Poptart
- Skorpio
- Vexx
- TheFlow
- False
- Frozen

Also, for FE Saga, the following people are being flown out already:

- MKLeo
- Mr. E
- Pugwest
- Ryuga
- Cosmos
- Ryo
- Captain Levi
- Dath

 

[NairWizard]

@Minordeth

Saying that Greninja has the best mobility in the game, and more specifically comparing his air speed to Mario's, is completely disingenuous.

Raw mobility by itself isn't very useful. What's important rather is positional threat, either by way of hitboxes or shield/whiff punishing.

The scary thing about Mario drifting toward you in the air is that he can throw out a frame 3 aerial at any time and land almost laglessly, crossing you up if you choose to swing a hitbox, or landing and grabbing you if you choose to shield. Mario's high air speed is good because it lets him threaten you with uncertainty.

On the other hand, if someone is swinging a Marth f-air at your head, then having a good dash to shield gives you a good response because you can block it at a spacing that's not safe for the Marth. Then the Marth gets hit and you win neutral. Alternatively, if you have a fast dash like Falcon, you can walk right out of Marth's range and dash back in and smack him for missing his swing.

These are the only two ways in which mobility translates into wins in neutral. 1) Good, unpredictable options out of drift and out of run and 2) ways to interrupt hitbox spacing and/or whiff punish

Greninja is straight up bad at #1. His fastest aerial is b-air at f5 but that's not very practical or usable in neutral; n-air is rewarding but quite committal, so he has f-air left, which is great for spacing on shield but way too slow to use repeatedly (you *will* get powershielded after a few of these).

Meanwhile, he's fast on the ground and has an f4 jumpsquat but what are his options out of run? He doesn't have strong rising aerial options and only one (/two, generously) real falling aerial option. Furthermore he lacks the strong arcing hitboxes that other characters with high startup have like Marth. He's not good in the SHAD -> aerial department because he falls too fast. So what's he got? He's got dash attack... and roll. There's a reason that you see Salem rolling so much with Greninja. His grounded neutral is reliant on universal options like rolling because despite all of his mobility he can't make much use of it.

And then he's got some of the worst out of shield options in the game so running up with a shield/dashing in is useful only in a handful of matchups.

To be fair to Greninja, he's good at whiff punishing. Pivot shuriken, a fast dash grab, a very sweet dash attack... he has the tools to punish misses. The problem is that most of these options are among his least rewarding.

So how good is Greninja at positioning hitboxes? Actually pretty terrible. He's got among the best ground speeds in the game, amazing air speed and acceleration, and an f4 jumpsquat, and it lets him do... almost nothing.

He's probably high tier, but it's because of shurikens and his combo game. Greninja is very far from being a high-mobility character in practice.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja's mobility is important to his kit more so for its defensive applications than his offensive applications. Greninja needs to spend as little time shielding, and fortunately his mobility can allow him to run or jump out of situations rather than pin himself down and shield.