Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/WaDiRob/status/909209434995519489

Uh oh, is another M2 player about to bite the Dust?

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://twitter.com/WaDiRob/status/909209434995519489

Uh oh, is another M2 player about to bite the Dust?

Prediction: Either this doesn't happen/his Diddy ends up just being a pocket, or he ends up using him a lot and performs much worse than he did before.

Just like almost every other time a notable player picks up a new main or secondary.

 

[|RK|]

https://twitter.com/WaDiRob/status/909209434995519489

Uh oh, is another M2 player about to bite the Dust?

Or ROB.

WaDi said a while back he would stop using his ROB at majors. So he needs a tournament secondary. I doubt he's dropping Mewtwo - I could be wrong, but I haven't heard anything about that.

 

[Rizen]

@ last page, results and theory shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Sometimes results don't accurately represent a character, like Lucina being low when people saw her as a discount Marth, but there's always a good explanation. The important thing is that we use a large sampling. SSB4 has not been patched in long enough that we have long term data to identify trends and outliers without bumping our knees on the coffee table. This also applies to players polled for tier lists/MU charts; the more experienced players the better. That way we don't end up with pikachu in SS Tier with no losing or even MUs.

Link suffers from this as well.

^this. Link would be terrifying if he had decent airspeed and a frame 5 jumpsquat. WTH were the developers thinking when the designed Cloud?! Link has to dash>buffer jump to get some combos like DThrow>Uair.


BTW, did ZeRo ever seriously try Bayo like he said?

 

[PJB]

Mewtwo in a lot of ways remains the most confusing character to me in terms of results not matching his theory. When I look at this character I see a top tier neutral and frankly bonkers kill power (with an elite kill throw to boot). His weakness, dying early, just doesn't seem like it should hold him back since his disadvantage overall isn't even too bad with his awesome air dodge, but I guess it does in practice?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

BTW, did ZeRo ever seriously try Bayo like he said?

No,not to my knowledge. I do not remember Zero using Bayonetta in a tourney.

 

[Lord Dio]

Mewtwo in a lot of ways remains the most confusing character to me in terms of results not matching his theory. When I look at this character I see a top tier neutral and frankly bonkers kill power (with an elite kill throw to boot). His weakness, dying early, just doesn't seem like it should hold him back since his disadvantage overall isn't even too bad with his awesome air dodge, but I guess it does in practice?

He dies early in a game where rage and aura exist, so it' shouldn't really be a surprise.......

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Mewtwo in a lot of ways remains the most confusing character to me in terms of results not matching his theory. When I look at this character I see a top tier neutral and frankly bonkers kill power (with an elite kill throw to boot). His weakness, dying early, just doesn't seem like it should hold him back since his disadvantage overall isn't even too bad with his awesome air dodge, but I guess it does in practice?

M2 is just a perfect example of a glass cannon, explosive power at the cost of being easy to kill. Much like Shiek this forces his players to play perfectly to abuse his strengths. Unfortunately unlike Shiek his strengths aren't as dominant nor is his neutral so he can't afford as much mistakes as Shiek can and giving how it's not that difficult to reset to neutral in this game especially once both players are at high percentages and confirms work less this just affords more opportunity for M2 to lose neutral and cost him his stocks.

M2 will be fine this is how his character archetype works. However I will say this is why I stress that results and theory should be used to determine a character's worth but results should prove the theory, if they don't then you need to re-evaluate your theory.

 

[|RK|]

WaDi followed up saying Mewtwo will still be his main, and he's not going to totally drop ROB.

Also, re: Mewtwo - his weight really balances him. While I don't think of weight as a huge limiting factor for most characters, Mewtwo has enough strengths that a weight boost would make him kind of busted.

Re: disadvantage - top Mewtwos still don't use all of his options, like teleport cancels. I've heard it's harder for Mewtwo from some people - is that accurate?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I actually thought it was easier for Mewtwo and Palutena due to the platform slide they can do at the end of the teleport while Zelda cannot.

 

[Rizen]

Weight is very important. Not only can heavy characters survive and trade more damage, weight determines how fast a character can act out of being thrown. Heavy characters act faster from weight dependent throws and are less likely to be true comboed. Weight also doesn't affect floatiness; Bowser is the heaviest character by far and floaty. He escapes a lot of throw combos, fortunately there are other chains that heavily punish him like MK's ladders.

I actually thought it was easier for Mewtwo and Palutena due to the platform slide they can do at the end of the teleport while Zelda cannot.

Zelda also has a longer teleport with an attack so she's rarely positioned to cancel off platforms. Most of her cancels are set up in specific places on stage to cancel off the ledge.

 

[|RK|]

I actually thought it was easier for Mewtwo and Palutena due to the platform slide they can do at the end of the teleport while Zelda cannot.

That's my assumption, but I see more Zeldas and Palutenas platform cancel (Palutena especially) than Mewtwos.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think among Palutena players it is talked about more while for Mewtwo mains it may be more niche or seen as an afterthought.

EDIT: My guess may have to be with Palutena lacking the hover Mewtwo gains from Confusion (she still has Reflect and Autoreticle for B Reverse until Super Speed and Jump Glide are available again, I love those moves!) along with his double jump arc. So I'm thinking Palutena mains may drill their players into learning platform cancels more than Mewtwo players.

 

[Kofu]

Weight is very important. Not only can heavy characters survive and trade more damage, weight determines how fast a character can act out of being thrown. Heavy characters act faster from weight dependent throws and are less likely to be true comboed. Weight also doesn't affect floatiness; Bowser is the heaviest character by far and floaty. He escapes a lot of throw combos, fortunately there are other chains that heavily punish him like MK's ladders.

Weight-dependent throws are good game design am I right guys?

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Mewtwo has very few bad matchups on paper, but because of human error he isn't nearly as broken as he looks. It's kind of like how Bayonetta on paper shouldn't be able to keep up with him, Sheik, and Diddy in neutral, but instead thrives off of human error and her ridiculous punish game

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mewtwo has very few bad matchups on paper, but because of human error he isn't nearly as broken as he looks. It's kind of like how Bayonetta on paper shouldn't be able to keep up with him, Sheik, and Diddy in neutral, but instead thrives off of human error and her ridiculous punish game

What are his bad MUs? Just curious.

 

[Lord Dio]

What are his bad MUs? Just curious.

Cloud, for one.
sheik and diddy

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

I think among Palutena players it is talked about more while for Mewtwo mains it may be more niche or seen as an afterthought.

EDIT: My guess may have to be with Palutena lacking the hover Mewtwo gains from Confusion (she still has Reflect and Autoreticle for B Reverse until Super Speed and Jump Glide are available again, I love those moves!) along with his double jump arc. So I'm thinking Palutena mains may drill their players into learning platform cancels more than Mewtwo players.

Mewtwo's teleport options are insane; here's a guide that focuses just on Battlefield: https://smashboards.com/threads/teleport-canceling-guide.422407/

However, I think you're right about Mewtwo not really needing to know teleport cancelling. Of the characters that benefit (Zelda, Palu, M2, Pikachu, and many others with a ledge cancelling move like Ganondorf and Diddy Kong), Mewtwo's gameplan is least reliant on it because he doesn't have to rely on the surprise movement and frame data. The first reason is that he has much easier options for faking out movement - a god tier airdodge and confusion, but also good move speed and quick moves with little landing lag. Unlike Zelda, Mewtwo will never need to YOLO a ledge cancel to return safely to stage. A common option out of ledge cancel, jump, isn't even viable with Mewtwo thanks to his wonky second jump. Leading out this, the main reason ledge cancelling doesn't work for him is that Mewtwo's gameplan isn't really based on risky moves like ledge cancelling (and yes, ledge cancelling is risky). Rather, Mewtwo prefers safe options like SHAD, walling opponents out on the ground, and shadow ball to pressure the opponent and keep his glass side hidden.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

What are his bad MUs? Just curious.

Cloud is the big one, Sheik went from being a good matchup to his second worst. They're bad but they're still doable though
Diddy being bad is a meme

 

[Illuminose]

What are his bad MUs? Just curious.

cloud, diddy, sheik, fox, potentially corrin

 

[Skeeter Mania]

cloud, diddy, sheik, fox, potentially corrin

Why Fox and Corrin?

 

[soniczx123]

Weight is very important. Not only can heavy characters survive and trade more damage, weight determines how fast a character can act out of being thrown. Heavy characters act faster from weight dependent throws and are less likely to be true comboed. Weight also doesn't affect floatiness; Bowser is the heaviest character by far and floaty. He escapes a lot of throw combos, fortunately there are other chains that heavily punish him like MK's ladders.

Zelda also has a longer teleport with an attack so she's rarely positioned to cancel off platforms. Most of her cancels are set up in specific places on stage to cancel off the ledge.

It's not exactly that heavier characters can act out of hitstun faster, it's actually the thrower who suffers more endlag when throwing heavier characters and it's quite noticeable imo.

 

[Kofu]

It's not exactly that heavier characters can act out of hitstun faster, it's actually the thrower who suffers more endlag when throwing heavier characters and it's quite noticeable imo.

It's probably worth noting that Bowser's UThrow and DK's Cargo throws aren't weight dependent. For some reason I thought that Luigi's DThrow wasn't either but apparently it is.

 

[Lord Dio]

Why Fox and Corrin?

Seeing fox as a bad mu is surprising. M2 should be able to keep fox out with ease, combo him on and offstage, and get out of the fox combos well....not sure about corrin, but this should be a slight disadvantage mu for fox.....

 

[|RK|]

Mewtwo's teleport options are insane; here's a guide that focuses just on Battlefield: https://smashboards.com/threads/teleport-canceling-guide.422407/

However, I think you're right about Mewtwo not really needing to know teleport cancelling. Of the characters that benefit (Zelda, Palu, M2, Pikachu, and many others with a ledge cancelling move like Ganondorf and Diddy Kong), Mewtwo's gameplan is least reliant on it because he doesn't have to rely on the surprise movement and frame data. The first reason is that he has much easier options for faking out movement - a god tier airdodge and confusion, but also good move speed and quick moves with little landing lag. Unlike Zelda, Mewtwo will never need to YOLO a ledge cancel to return safely to stage. A common option out of ledge cancel, jump, isn't even viable with Mewtwo thanks to his wonky second jump. Leading out this, the main reason ledge cancelling doesn't work for him is that Mewtwo's gameplan isn't really based on risky moves like ledge cancelling (and yes, ledge cancelling is risky). Rather, Mewtwo prefers safe options like SHAD, walling opponents out on the ground, and shadow ball to pressure the opponent and keep his glass side hidden.

Honestly, Mewtwo's disadvantage is exactly why I mention teleport cancelling. Against some characters (Cloud, Fox), I see Mewtwo get trapped super hard. Or landing.

And that's my answer to Lord Dio as well - Mewtwo/Fox could definitely be even, maybe? But not in Mewtwo's favor at all. Fox's CQC game is better, he can catch Mewtwo's landings pretty solidly and ledge trap him. On top of that, Mewtwo's edgeguarding is precise, and best chained, if that makes sense. He wants to either catch you with nair/dair, or chain you into the blastzone.

Regarding keeping Fox out easily - Fox is fast af, with a reflector to make Shadow Ball slightly more dangerous. Fox certainly doesn't have trouble in the MU - even or better for him.

Of course, that opinion is based on watching WaDi, who puts the MU as "even, but challenging" on his MU chart.

 

[TurboLink]

Weight-dependent throws are good game design am I right guys?

When being a heavyweight generally means you have sluggish mobility with mediocre frame data, then yeah, weight-dependent throws are good game design.

 

[Laken64]

Why Fox and Corrin?

it's been solidly said that corrin loses to M2, corrin can't do anything when his shield gets down tilted by M2 and Shadow ball forces Corrin to approach which is Corrin's flawed area.

Also why the heck do people still think that Diddy wins the M2 mu? Both have the tools to make the mu go either way and M2 I believe can tear at Diddy 's disadvantage state really well with his amazing aerials (Also look at Wadi vs Legit those edgeguards are insane) and M2 doesn't even have to approach in neutral because Shadow ball is an amazing projectile that forces the opponent to approach. Also Wadi for some time has said the mu is even, and that's coming from someone who's beaten the second best Diddy, Zinoto and MVD so I think it's should warrant some discussion on why M2 doesn't really lose, I'm pretty sure this talk that Diddy beats M2 is everyone seeing Zero body every M2 out there (Abadongo countless times). I personally think it's a close even but I'm open to revise my opinion with a good argument.

 

[LordShade67]

I feel M2:Fox is in the even but challenging section. It's most certainly more doable now than it was Pre-1.1.3 when M2 was too slow to even retreat vs. Fox.

Also, I'm calling shenanigans on M2 losing to Corrin. Yes, M2 can die to Corrin tipper stuff, but Corrin has to do a lot more work in neutral due to M2 having better tools and a stronger projectile. Corrin's also easier to do SHFF NAir to Footstool stuff to due to the way their hurtboxes are aligned.

 

[Kofu]

When being a heavyweight generally means you have sluggish mobility with mediocre frame data, then yeah, weight-dependent throws are good game design.

I think the biggest issue for me is that not all throws are weight dependent. If you're going to have a mechanic like that why cherry pick certain throws to not be affected by it?

Weight dependent throws seem like a bandaid fix to balance how strong throw combos are in this game, too. If I'm not remembering mechanics incorrectly, lighter characters already receive more hitstun from throws from the increased knockback; why implement a mechanic that exaggerates that further?

I guess I figure that, if you choose to play a (super)heavyweight you should expect to get juggled and take a good chunk of damage from throws. While it wasn't this way on release, it's currently extremely dangerous to get close enough to even grab DK and Bowser, as their grab reward is probably the best in the game. I'd kind of like to be able to get a similar level of reward (at least damage-wise) for successfully getting in for a grab. I don't fully agree with how they balanced DK and Bowser, but it's certainly effective and gives them a nice "gets comboed for hefty damage but can reverse the tide of a match instantly with a few clean grabs" style that is probably what heavies should be geared toward.

 

[Locke 06]

I think the biggest issue for me is that not all throws are weight dependent. If you're going to have a mechanic like that why cherry pick certain throws to not be affected by it?

They're based on the animation to make the throws seem more realistic. It should be harder for Megaman to spike Bowser into the ground than it is for him to spike Pikachu, so the animation takes longer. Likewise, it should not be any different for Bowser to spin someone on his shell for his upthrow, so that isn't weight dependent.

It's not a balancing mechanic, it's more an aesthetic choice, and even then it isn't completely consistent.

 

[Krysco]

Another copy/paste session from Krysco. This time the throws that are and aren't weight dependent:

Spoiler

None
Fthrow, bthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
Dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow
Dthrow
None
Bthrow
Fthrow, bthrow
Bthrow, uthrow, dthroiw. Not the cargo variants
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
None
None
Dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None
Bthrow, uthrow
None
None
Dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
None
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None
None
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None
None
Bthrow
Bthrow
Fthrow, bthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
None
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None
None
None
Dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow
Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow
None

I don't see what condition needs to be met for the developers to decide a throw has to be weight dependent or not aside from every clone and even semi-clone getting the exact same treatment as the character they're based on. Might be animation. Aaaaand as I finish typing this, Locke 06 has the answer.

 

[BTVolta]

I think the biggest issue for me is that not all throws are weight dependent. If you're going to have a mechanic like that why cherry pick certain throws to not be affected by it?

Weight dependent throws seem like a bandaid fix to balance how strong throw combos are in this game, too. If I'm not remembering mechanics incorrectly, lighter characters already receive more hitstun from throws from the increased knockback; why implement a mechanic that exaggerates that further?

I guess I figure that, if you choose to play a (super)heavyweight you should expect to get juggled and take a good chunk of damage from throws. While it wasn't this way on release, it's currently extremely dangerous to get close enough to even grab DK and Bowser, as their grab reward is probably the best in the game. I'd kind of like to be able to get a similar level of reward (at least damage-wise) for successfully getting in for a grab. I don't fully agree with how they balanced DK and Bowser, but it's certainly effective and gives them a nice "gets comboed for hefty damage but can reverse the tide of a match instantly with a few clean grabs" style that is probably what heavies should be geared toward.

Weight dependent throws are not a smash 4 exclusive mechanic. They've existed since melee and are not exclusive to combo throws either with the most prominent example being Mario's back throw. Weight dependent throws exist to help balance some throws, make the game more dynamic, and they just make sense aesthetically(it should take Mario more time to throw Bowser compared to Jiggs).

Also please don't pretend that light weight characters aren't broken in every smash game. Getting punished a bit harder on throw combos doesn't change their generally better movement, disadvantage state, and usually smaller stature. Heavies are probably the best they've ever been collectively in a smash game and they still get **** on by some of the better character and do get juggle to high hell.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow

I knew this already, but this saddens me.

FeelsBadMan.

 

[TDK]

Athena confirmed for FE saga.

 

[Kofu]

They're based on the animation to make the throws seem more realistic. It should be harder for Megaman to spike Bowser into the ground than it is for him to spike Pikachu, so the animation takes longer. Likewise, it should not be any different for Bowser to spin someone on his shell for his upthrow, so that isn't weight dependent.

It's not a balancing mechanic, it's more an aesthetic choice, and even then it isn't completely consistent.

I had a feeling this was the case, honestly. I am curious if non-weight dependent throws use a certain weight as a baseline, or if there's a lower and upper limit for weight dependent ones.

Weight dependent throws are not a smash 4 exclusive mechanic. They've existed since melee and are not exclusive to combo throws either with the most prominent example being Mario's back throw. Weight dependent throws exist to help balance some throws, make the game more dynamic, and they just make sense aesthetically(it should take Mario more time to throw Bowser compared to Jiggs).

Also please don't pretend that light weight characters aren't broken in every smash game. Getting punished a bit harder on throw combos doesn't change their generally better movement, disadvantage state, and usually smaller stature. Heavies are probably the best they've ever been collectively in a smash game and they still get **** on by some of the better character and do get juggle to high hell.

Honestly my whole rant was just getting stuff off my chest. While I'm still a little indignant about the concept, the difference in endlag for weight dependent throws is about 5 frames at maximum IIRC, so it's honestly not a huge issue. Does it inherently favor heavies? Yeah, but even if they didn't exist I don't think their viability would he impacted much.

I'm mainly frustrated from playing a character who, despite being the third lightest in the game, doesn't have nearly mobility or frame data to make up for his risk/reward issues who would be helped slightly for managing to get a grab against Bowser and DK.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What do you guys think of Lucas footstool combos and his potential to 0-death opponents?

 

[Yonder]

What do you guys think of Lucas footstool combos and his potential to 0-death opponents?

Same as Peach's once infinite, Mewtwo's Nair to disable chain, all other infinites and 0 to deaths etc etc.

Not much until I see it consistently practiced in tournament which rarely happens and it goes back to being forgotten. DK's ding dong and Bowser's Showtime being an exception.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Same as Peach's once infinite, Mewtwo's Nair to disable chain, all other infinites and 0 to deaths etc etc.

Not much until I see it consistently practiced in tournament which rarely happens and it goes back to being forgotten. DK's ding dong and Bowser's Showtime being an exception.

They do happen often though it's just not seen at a national level because you rarely see Lucas at a good national level. It's one of the more easier to do of the footstool locks execution wise the real challenge is reading DI and how they fall. It's a great tool for Lucas to get damage when his zoning isn't working as well.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

When being a heavyweight generally means you have sluggish mobility with mediocre frame data, then yeah, weight-dependent throws are good game design.

except DK doesn't have sluggish mobility or mediocre frame data, the only thing "sluggish" is his jumpsquat. He even has one of the best combo breakers in the game. That doesn't really scream good game design to me

 

[Kofu]

Lucas's footstool combos are about as viable as Falcon's IMO.

except DK doesn't have sluggish mobility or mediocre frame data, the only thing "sluggish" is his jumpsquat. He even has one of the best combo breakers in the game. That doesn't really scream good game design to me

Despite all this, he probably gets juggled the hardest of the heavies. His fall speed isn't exceptional, he doesn't have multiple midair jumps to stall, he doesn't have any threatening decending aerial options, and his super armor moves are either limited and put him into freefall.