Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

It's basically the same as with Falcon's up b, so also falcon, mario (fair dunks), and the ones adom mentioned, also falco.

 

[TDK]

So way back when in one of the old threads, someone made a post about who the best secondary for each top tier was. I decided to do that again, since the meta's changed a lot since then, and some matchups (Sheik-Mewtwo for example) have gotten better while some have gotten worse (Cloud-Bowser for example). That, and I fully believe that every player should be proficient in at least two characters.

Spoiler: Bayonetta

Best secondary:
Bayonetta is weird in that her most problematic matchup might actually be herself, and it's hard to think of a secondary when your main's most problematic matchup is your main. So, I looked at some other contentious matchups for her, and are probably her next-hardest, maybe. Bowser does fairly well against all three, either by abusing rage or general matchup proficiency. I picked Bowser over DK due to his floaty nature should you try Bowser vs Bayo - he's slightly less vulnerable to Bayo combos.

Spoiler: Diddy

Best Secondary:
Outside of Sheik, Cloud can cover Diddy's bad matchups (Zoners + Luigi + Sheik + Rosalina) really well. He's also really easy to play and would require less time investment than someone like Rosalina, who also covers most of the matchups but doesn't really leave an answer to other Rosas as while as being harder to play.

Spoiler: Cloud

Best Secondary:
She may be the toughest character on this list to learn, but every character Cloud seems to struggle with ( / ), Rosalina can take care of. You do have to be wary of the Cloud Ditto, though.

Spoiler: Sheik

Best Secondary:
Sheik's actually a pretty awkward character to find a secondary for, since Rosalina loses to so few characters, and finding someone to cover Rosa and the other characters that give her trouble (namely ) is pretty hard. While ZSS doesn't beat Rosa, she comes close, and she does great vs the big bodied superheavies. Also gives Sheik an element of jank if the Sheik player feels like it's needed.

MK is another option over ZSS for a better Rosa matchup at the cost of weaker superheavy matchups.

Spoiler: Sonic

Best Secondary
Sonic matchup charts can be all over the place, but a general trend seems to show losses to , at least. Corrin has one of the better Cloud matchups in the game and is our current "Does this character BEAT Bayo???" character, so she's probably the way to go for now.

Spoiler: Mario

Best Secondary: or
Mario has, most likely, the weakest matchup spread overall among the top tiers (at least judging by the number of mid/low tier mains who say Mario is even or better for them). But focussing on the definite ones, Mario seems to lose to for sure. Marcina (whichever one you're more comfortable with, really) covers these, plus a few other of the more suspect ones... except for the ditto. I'm not sure how to deal with the Marcina ditto here, actually.

Spoiler: Fox

Best Secondary:
Frankly, there's no magic bullet for Fox. Losing to , , and kinda removes any one-shot answer to any character. This is further compounded by Fox losing to a fair amount of characters outside top tier, such as . Pikachu probably does the best, holding his own or beating the most problematic characters, except Luigi and maybe Ness.

Spoiler: Rosalina & Luma

Best Secondary:
Rosalina losing to so few characters really helps this out, with being her only real definite ones ( is getting up there). DK exploits Cloud's weakness to grapplers and is a good all-around CP just due to his archetype. I think DK is slightly better than Bowser vs MK due to him not being a floaty but DK and Bowser are pretty interchangeable.

Spoiler: Mewtwo

Best Secondary:
Losing to all 4 of sucks. There's no real way to beat all 4 without just using one of them, and Bayo is the best choice of the four to beat the other three.

Spoiler: Zero Suit Samus

Best Secondary:
For pretty much the same reasons as Mewtwo. That being said, I think ZSS has a lot more flexibility as a CP due to Boost Kick Ladders giving you the ability to turn any game around, regardless of matchup.

Also, Ignition 200 (191 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Javi
2nd: Ned
3rd: Tyroy
4th: JJROCKETS
5th: Zephyr
5th: Seth
7th: Fade
7th: NiTe
9th: Sir J
9th: Jimmy
9th: Dan
9th: big_mak
13th: Panda Bair
13th: Shel
13th: Dragon (Ecuador Dragon)
13th: Bushi

Biggest tournament this week might be this weekly. I'd definitely count top 16 for this, given the size.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm glad I got to see 2 of the Lucas mains that are regulars at that weekly on stream.

 

[Myollnir]

The best secondary for Bayonetta is probably Rosa, helps against Diddy (her worst match-up) and makes sets against grapplers a lot more consistent than they are with Bayo. Also helps against Sheik.
Corrin isn't really a problem as Bayo. Cloud can be, but it's doable.

 

[|RK|]

The best secondary for Bayonetta is probably Rosa, helps against Diddy (her worst match-up) and makes sets against grapplers a lot more consistent than they are with Bayo. Also helps against Sheik.
Corrin isn't really a problem as Bayo. Cloud can be, but it's doable.

Considering how often Bayo struggles with Cloud at a high level (while Bayo struggles with... two Diddy players), wouldn't it be at LEAST as important to cover Diddy and Cloud at the same time?

And from that perspective, couldn't Sheik be a better answer?

Also, regarding grapplers - I thought it was mostly agreed that Bayo destroys grapplers on the same level as ZSS?

 

[Lord Dio]

You do have to be wary of the Cloud Ditto, though.

THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS
is basically why we have no definitively determined best Cloud (aside from y'know, ZeRo being the Cloudslayer). Because there's that essentially triangle of komo leo and tweek. While it has kinda declined, it still holds pretty true.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Also, regarding grapplers - I thought it was mostly agreed that Bayo destroys grapplers on the same level as ZSS?

How so? I've always been under the impression that they fair well thanks to beinggrapplers. Yeah it's only one aspect of the MU but being able to get kills with a move immune to Witch Time is still very important. Bayonetta being light and tall also opens up the door for longer confirm windows that kill early/build damage. If Bayonetta is forced to approach say DK she is in serious danger of getting Ding Dong'd at 50.

Also it's more so ZSS destroys big bodies rather than grapplers (who do happen to be mostly big bodies though)

 

[Laken64]

Losing to all 4 of sucks. There's no real way to beat all 4 without just using one of them, and Bayo is the best choice of the four to beat the other three.

Can someone explain to me why Diddy is a losing mu for and not a even mu? I honestly think m2 has all of the tools to make it a even mu imo

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'll go on ahead and sort of repeat something I said earlier.

I think DK and Bowser can work as a secondary against any trigger-happy or shield heavy player rather than just character vs character. I mean, as far as everyone who says that Cloud struggles against both of them (though this actually holds somewhat true for Bowser), I would say it has more to do with Leo struggling in the MU. Heck, Komo even gave him Bowser practice after losing to Nairo and Tweek's superheavy CPs.

 

[|RK|]

How so? I've always been under the impression that they fair well thanks to beinggrapplers. Yeah it's only one aspect of the MU but being able to get kills with a move immune to Witch Time is still very important. Bayonetta being light and tall also opens up the door for longer confirm windows that kill early/build damage. If Bayonetta is forced to approach say DK she is in serious danger of getting Ding Dong'd at 50.

Also it's more so ZSS destroys big bodies rather than grapplers (who do happen to be mostly big bodies though)

You can argue most of this for ZSS as well.

The reasons ZSS/Bayo do so well against DK/Bowser - from my understanding - are

1) mobility: They can both dance around these characters without committing as hard as others will. Bayo in particular bans FD every time anyways, so someone like Salem excels at this.

2) big bodies are easier to combo: ZSS is more likely to stack into an immediate death, but Bayo is certainly no slouch in this regard either.

Incidentally, most DK MU charts I've seen show the MU as -2 (most recent I could find is Hikaru's, which also puts ZSS as even... oddly enough). Bayo MU charts are slightly more varied - Lima says +2, Zack says +1.

And then we have Salem vs Konga as an example.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Good points, I will say though while Bayonetta has good burst options her overall mobility is fairly middling (Ground and Air speed) so I can't say she can just dance around like ZSS can so while Bayo will combo big bodies like ZSS she is more likely to get grabbed then ZSS would.

Though it is becoming more apparent how hard it is for some character to deal with Bayonetta platform camping so who knows.

 

[blackghost]

You can argue most of this for ZSS as well.

The reasons ZSS/Bayo do so well against DK/Bowser - from my understanding - are

1) mobility: They can both dance around these characters without committing as hard as others will. Bayo in particular bans FD every time anyways, so someone like Salem excels at this.

2) big bodies are easier to combo: ZSS is more likely to stack into an immediate death, but Bayo is certainly no slouch in this regard either.

Incidentally, most DK MU charts I've seen show the MU as -2 (most recent I could find is Hikaru's, which also puts ZSS as even... oddly enough). Bayo MU charts are slightly more varied - Lima says +2, Zack says +1.

And then we have Salem vs Konga as an example.

Aggro bayo's will be favored vs grapplers. Zoning and patient ones will be at a disadvantage. That's what leads to the variation.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

9th: Sir J

Woah, a solo zard got 9th at a 191 entrant tourney? That's incredible (though Seth with Solo yoshi coming in fifth is amazing as well)

 

[Rizen]

Aggro bayo's will be favored vs grapplers. Zoning and patient ones will be at a disadvantage. That's what leads to the variation.

This applies to too. T's Link MU chart has Bowser and DK as bad MUs and he's an argo player. Scizor has them as even and he's more about camping/zoning.

TBH I always find T's MU charts to be really weird. It must be the Japanese meta or something. He has as worse than

 

[Skeeter Mania]

though Seth with Solo yoshi coming in fifth is amazing as well

Especially when many of your competitors are using characters like Diddy, Cloud, and Bayo.

 

[TDK]

This applies to too. T's Link MU chart has Bowser and DK as bad MUs and he's an argo player. Scizor has them as even and he's more about camping/zoning.

TBH I always find T's MU charts to be really weird. It must be the Japanese meta or something. He has as worse than

T seems to be good at a lot of the MUs traditionally considered bad for Link, such as Fox and Sheik. I wonder why?

Also, Kogarasuma confirmed for 2GGC: FE Saga.

 

[The-Technique]

In a recent stream, Nairo explained his reasoning for picking Diddy against Salem in the Bayo matchup. He studied Zero's matches with Salem and noted that Zero would often give up an opportunity to punish Salem to instead spawn a Banana, or sometimes just do nothing. I think Zero like most players give Bayo too much respect and let her get away with things she shouldn't, which is why Nairo's Diddy managed to take 3 straight sets from arguably the best Bayo in the world.

T seems to be good at a lot of the MUs traditionally considered bad for Link, such as Fox and Sheik. I wonder why?

Also, Kogarasuma confirmed for 2GGC: FE Saga.

His playstyle, most likely. Grapplers like Bowser love it when characters approach them unsafely, and T himself is an impatient player that goes a little too aggro. On the other hand T's CQC makes him better suited for whiff punishing and out spacing characters like Fox that like to get in your face and suffocate you. Also helps that fast fallers like Fox and Greninja are really easy to combo.

 

[Guido65]

His playstyle, most likely. Grapplers like Bowser love it when characters approach them unsafely, and T himself is an impatient player that goes a little too aggro. On the other hand T's CQC makes him better suited for whiff punishing and out spacing characters like Fox that like to get in your face and suffocate you. Also helps that fast fallers like Fox and Greninja are really easy to combo.

Yeah its definitely his playstyle to why he thinks lucas/bowser are harder than sheik. He isn't the type of person willing to just play lame vs those characters(platform camping in Lucas's case). His patience did heavily improve at Dubai dojo where he even took his 1st game off KEN and was the only player KEN dropped a game to the whole tournament so he is definitely improving in that department. I don't entirely know if his playstyle is better vs greninja though. Cat said it was even when I asked him on the linkcord and his playstyle is polar opposite to T's.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah its definitely his playstyle to why he thinks lucas/bowser are harder than sheik. He isn't the type of person willing to just play lame vs those characters(platform camping in Lucas's case). His patience did heavily improve at Dubai dojo where he even took his 1st game off KEN and was the only player KEN dropped a game to the whole tournament so he is definitely improving in that department. I don't entirely know if his playstyle is better vs greninja though. Cat said it was even when I asked him on the linkcord and his playstyle is polar opposite to T's.

I suppose we'll know when he get more data. Both Scizor and T beat the same Greninja despite their different playstyles.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja still beats Link, in my opinion. Greninja can really feast on Link's disadvantage state, but Gren's movement needs to be on point if he plans to weave around Link's zoning tools. Link's Zair in particular is pretty good at stuffing bad short hops. Stroder was playing the match up pretty well for the most part, but you can tell that when Link had high rage, he abandoned the gameplan and started to shield way too much. Link's projectiles can't kill Greninja raw, and Greninja's dash attack and dash grab are so fast he could potentially stuff one of Link's normals. He could've been more aggresive in those sets in those high percent scenarios.

You may or may not even be arguing if the match up was even or link's favor anyway, but I forgot to post my opininon anyway.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Dropping this here because it is amazing and needs to be shared. Share it with your friends, your family, your pets, whoever.

Now, I am a Bayonetta player myself, so I watched this just to see whether there was anything I didn't know. I knew most things in this video.

But things like this video need to be shared more often. The sooner people actually sit down and try to implement things like this, the better.

On one hand, I'm so glad this video was made because people can learn the correct ways to deal with Bayonetta.

But on the other hand, as a Bayonetta player myself, I still get a worried sickly feeling in my stomach when I watch videos like this, because whatever way you look at it, this kind of counterplay can really put a stop on Bayonetta's madness. I'd wager if people started effectively SDI'ing (by that I mean SDI'ing the correct way, not just upwards, asking to be killed; I blame ESAM for that old video), knowing their punishes for Witch Twist on shield or at the ledge when planking, then she wouldn't be the best in the game, period. I'd even go as far to say that she might not even be top 3.

Like, one of her best tools is Witch Twist OoS to start a combo. If you can literally avoid ALL followups off of that with the correct SDI, you have to ask yourself... actually how good is that option? Not very, clearly.

Anyway, just some food for thought for y'all.

 

[|RK|]

Dropping this here because it is amazing and needs to be shared. Share it with your friends, your family, your pets, whoever.

Now, I am a Bayonetta player myself, so I watched this just to see whether there was anything I didn't know. I knew most things in this video.

But things like this video need to be shared more often. The sooner people actually sit down and try to implement things like this, the better.

On one hand, I'm so glad this video was made because people can learn the correct ways to deal with Bayonetta.

But on the other hand, as a Bayonetta player myself, I still get a worried sickly feeling in my stomach when I watch videos like this, because whatever way you look at it, this kind of counterplay can really put a stop on Bayonetta's madness. I'd wager if people started effectively SDI'ing (by that I mean SDI'ing the correct way, not just upwards, asking to be killed; I blame ESAM for that old video), knowing their punishes for Witch Twist on shield or at the ledge when planking, then she wouldn't be the best in the game, period. I'd even go as far to say that she might not even be top 3.

Like, one of her best tools is Witch Twist OoS to start a combo. If you can literally avoid ALL followups off of that with the correct SDI, you have to ask yourself... actually how good is that option? Not very, clearly.

Anyway, just some food for thought for y'all.

WT OOS would still be a good option. There are no follow-ups off of some of the best OOS options in the game. It would simply go from a tool that commands huge respect and does incredible damage... to a "get off me tool," which is still *really* good to have.

 

[R3D3MON]

WT OOS would still be a good option. There are no follow-ups off of some of the best OOS options in the game. It would simply go from a tool that commands huge respect and does incredible damage... to a "get off me tool," which is still *really* good to have.

Not being able to combo well sounds pretty bad.

 

[DanGR]

Re: punishing Bayo's attacks

It's not possible to prime oneself to react quickly to variable spacings on every individual bayonetta attack all at the same time. Thankfully, we can use heuristics and option selects to cover many options at once while operating on just a few mental procedures, but this tends to dampen the strength of the punish in exchange for coverage. Additionally, these kinds of fixed responses seem to be susceptible to witch time.

To say all of Bayo's attacks are simply punishable- therefore bad- without taking into consideration the breadth of her option pool is disingenuous.

I'd be infinitely more interested in hearing about the heuristic models players in various game states follow that avoid witch time while netting somewhat optimal punishes against a variety of options (or at the very least drastically reduce risk with respect to reward). People are creative, so I'm hopeful.

 

[Bigbomb2]

You may or may not even be arguing if the match up was even or link's favor anyway, but I forgot to post my opininon anyway.

They were alluding to the fact that different Links have drastically different playstyles and how that affects their MU charts.

 

[BSP]

But on the other hand, as a Bayonetta player myself, I still get a worried sickly feeling in my stomach when I watch videos like this, because whatever way you look at it, this kind of counterplay can really put a stop on Bayonetta's madness. I'd wager if people started effectively SDI'ing (by that I mean SDI'ing the correct way, not just upwards, asking to be killed; I blame ESAM for that old video), knowing their punishes for Witch Twist on shield or at the ledge when planking, then she wouldn't be the best in the game, period. I'd even go as far to say that she might not even be top 3.

Thanks for sharing the vid. I wrote down what I didn't already know about optimal DI for her stuff in my notes.

I don't think I could ever see Bayo below top 3 though, just off of witch time alone. All other Bayo stuff aside, how witch time skews risk : reward is pretty insane. I wish there was something more to do about it outside of play grab heavy and be super considerate with your strikes.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Re: punishing Bayo's attacks

It's not possible to prime oneself to react quickly to variable spacings on every individual bayonetta attack all at the same time. Thankfully, we can use heuristics and option selects to cover many options at once while operating on just a few mental procedures, but this tends to dampen the strength of the punish in exchange for coverage. Additionally, these kinds of fixed responses seem to be susceptible to witch time.

To say all of Bayo's attacks are simply punishable- therefore bad- without taking into consideration the breadth of her option pool is disingenuous.

I heavily agree with this.
Some of Bayo's moves being -6 on shield are definitely worth being noted, but he really jumped-the-gun when calling them bad just based on that.
-6 is punishable, but not every player is going to have that reaction time and a good Bayo is often going to avoid putting themselves in those situations, such as using a tilt at point-blank range when Bayo doesn't need to.

The SDI part of the video was well done and very helpful, however the "punishing on shield" section had some holes in it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To say all of Bayo's attacks are simply punishable- therefore bad- without taking into consideration the breadth of her option pool is disingenuous.

This is a very good and fair point - however, I don't recall hearing the video, or myself, call punishable = bad without good reason.

The main point of that video for a start was to show you that Bayonetta is not as safe as people claim. In short, show her areas that can be punished.

Bair can be punished; it's not entirely safe on shield. However, the window in which to punish it is extremely small and would require an incredibly quick option and incredibly quick reactions. As such, it's "punishable". But is it bad? Absolutely not. MrGameguycolor - this is almost a reply to your post posted mere seconds before this. Bair is theoretically punishable, but he outright said "you don't want to really challenge this move". I think that was fair.

Anyway, Witch Twist OoS has more than enough frames to react to and punish with an aerial; if Robin can react to it with his arse jumpsquat frame and relatively slow Uair, then I'm sure most characters have an option too.

Anyway, the biggest thing to take away from this video isn't the punishing windows, it's the SDI in my opinion.

Bayonetta not being able to combo you at all off of her main/"best" combo starter is a huuuuge deal. People cannot gloss over this. This is the single most important thing in the video if you ask me.

 

[ARGHETH]

Anyway, Witch Twist OoS has more than enough frames to react to and punish with an aerial; if Robin can react to it with his arse jumpsquat frame and relatively slow Uair, then I'm sure most characters have an option too.

Robin can punish it if he predicts it, since reaction time makes it so he can't otherwise (7f jumpsquat + f10 Uair + ~15f reaction time vs 20/17 frames to punish WT OoS + f5 airdodge/f7 ABK/etc). The video even notes that you can get hard punishes if you're expecting it, then shows Robin's Uair and Ganon's Bair and stuff.

 

[Rizen]

Bayonetta not being able to combo you at all off of her main/"best" combo starter is a huuuuge deal. People cannot gloss over this. This is the single most important thing in the video if you ask me.

(Witch twist) Except the video literally says 'you can DI down and away unless you think that won't work, then you DI the opposite way'. It's a good video but nothing game changing. Bayo's combos and moveset in general are variable enough that there's no cut and paste way to escape all the time. Even in the video, which was on training mode with the player knowing exactly what would happen, he got comboed a lot. In actual games it's even harder to react. You rarely see ladders off the top anymore but Bayo gets a good chunk of damage and positioning. Get hit with a combo starter and you're in hitstun above Ms.Legsfordays. It's also worth pointing out that everything was at point blank range when shown to be punishable.

It's not like top players aren't DIing; they escape a lot of Bayo's combos. It's always a gambit that heavily favors Bayo. Watch all the ways Captain Zack mixes things up in this match.

 

[|RK|]

Thing is, there are a number of ways where Bayo can just... not get to follow up.

Marss vs Mistake, for example. For all the times he escaped, he was only able to be killed by one setup. And his SDI on boost kick was the culprit, since he let himself get right under Bayo's dair.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bayonetta not being able to combo you at all off of her main/"best" combo starter is a huuuuge deal.

Doesn't that sound counterintuitive?

 

[DanGR]

Bowserboy3 At more than one point in the video the author stated that some of Bayo's attacks were bad while only discussing their theoretical lack of safety on block. Perhaps I interpretted this and the overall disparaging tone of the video differently than you and others might have.

 

[R3D3MON]

snip

Congratulations you just figured out how advantage works. You also just figured out Bayo's strength. Mindblowing.

 

[Lord Dio]

Sooo uhhhh, having just played it, does anyone have any particular thoughts on Charizard vs Corrin? Feels really weird to play but an interesting mu for sure.

 

[Rizen]

Greninja still beats Link, in my opinion. Greninja can really feast on Link's disadvantage state, but Gren's movement needs to be on point if he plans to weave around Link's zoning tools. Link's Zair in particular is pretty good at stuffing bad short hops. Stroder was playing the match up pretty well for the most part, but you can tell that when Link had high rage, he abandoned the gameplan and started to shield way too much. Link's projectiles can't kill Greninja raw, and Greninja's dash attack and dash grab are so fast he could potentially stuff one of Link's normals. He could've been more aggresive in those sets in those high percent scenarios.

You may or may not even be arguing if the match up was even or link's favor anyway, but I forgot to post my opininon anyway.

I agree Greninja slightly beats Link, especially on stages where Gren can abuse his mobility and trap landings like FD and TnC. Gren and Link both play their own versions of a zoning/exploit openings game where Link walls/frame traps and Gren bait/punishes. IMO there isn't an ideal playstyle for Link in this MU, unlike vs someone like Bowser where he wants to camp like crazy. Link does outcamp greninja but gren's mobility and pretty good projectile of his own makes that not be the focus of a game. It is worth noting that rage Link is scary with things like Utilt: frame 8-12 faf 36 with great reach above and behind Link that kills at 110%ish.

 

[blackghost]

the fact that less toplayers are getting laddered is a demonstration of improvement people do seem to understand that most bayo ladder combos come off a series of reads not just a WT OoS landing.
bayo is unique in the sense she really shouldnt hit your shield too much in the routine of her gameplan. and honestly she should only hit your shield with: dabk (rarely), bair, WT, fair, and dtilt. none of those are really easy to punish. so the point o f her safety io shield or lack of it really is a moot point. but still players need to know what is minus so they dont have to rely on reacting to punish but be able to anticipate. anticipating punishes is how people punish in games like marvel infinite or ss4 becuas ethe game is simply too fast otherwise.

 

[TDK]

Not to distract from this discussion too much, but the following three players have been confirmed for FE saga:

- Waldo
- False
- San

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Sooo uhhhh, having just played it, does anyone have any particular thoughts on Charizard vs Corrin? Feels really weird to play but an interesting mu for sure.

neither of them really have good approach options against the other, it probably just boils down to whoever gets punished for overcommiting first eats 40 or 50% and then gets forced to approach by the clock

 

[The-Technique]

Not to distract from this discussion too much, but the following three players have been confirmed for FE saga:

- Waldo
- False
- San

This oughta be good. Hopefully there won't be too many FE team kills in this tournament.