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One of the reasons I stopped playing the character. I love Robin but having trouble landing, bad CQC (why would they even nerf the Wind Jab?!), exploitable recovery, and on top of that their prime kill confirm doesn't work if the character is heavy. Sure most heavy characters struggle with their zoning but man, limiting your already limited character is harsh.Fthrow, bthrow, uthrow, dthrow.
(Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
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While I agree with you, allow me to clarify a few specifics:One of the reasons I stopped playing the character. I love Robin but having trouble landing, bad CQC (why would they even nerf the Wind Jab?!), exploitable recovery, and on top of that their prime kill confirm doesn't work if the character is heavy. Sure most heavy characters struggle with their zoning but man, limiting your already limited character is harsh.
s are on fire 
's hoo haws are a poor design choice imo. They really screw over lower ranked characters and make fighting them stressful. could be a few units lighter. At 130 (next heaviest is DK at 122) with floaty physics he escapes more punishment than he should then comes back with a grab combo that kills at 70ish %. I'm not saying the characters themselves are OP, rather they're polarizing and gatekeepers. but I'm just rambling about balance at this point, *sigh*. There's no doubt in my mind DK and Bowser are a tier above Link. and are both balanced by light weight and big hurtboxes. They're still top tier of course. As dominating as they are, especially Rosa, they also die extremely early if out-played. should have been 10 units lighter to give them more of a class cannon theme. was a lightweight. and King Boo are both heavyweights for some nonsensical reason. *shrugs*
I'm in a bit of a similar situation. Robin is by far one of my 2 best characters simply due to the amount of time I've put into him and yet I constantly ask myself "from a competitive standpoint, why should I use this character?" It doesn't help that my other best character is Mewtwo, a character with more speed be it walk, run, jumpsquat, air speed (they have the same fall speed), more range namely thanks to dtilt and bair, a better recovery and disadvantage state in general (Mewtwo actually has a faster attacking option than Robin with his f6 nair/fair compared to Robin's f8 Elwind which puts him further in the air, in helpless, uses up Elwind tome usage and doesn't send the opponent very far if they get hit by it. Next best for Robin is f9 bair/nair). Both also have access to breversing with their projectiles (may as well also add that I think Mewtwo's is better) and have command grabs with Mewtwo's also helping with recovery and being a reflector.. Mewtwo also gets access to the ledge cancels with Teleport which were just brought up recently.One of the reasons I stopped playing the character. I love Robin but having trouble landing, bad CQC (why would they even nerf the Wind Jab?!), exploitable recovery, and on top of that their prime kill confirm doesn't work if the character is heavy. Sure most heavy characters struggle with their zoning but man, limiting your already limited character is harsh.
although I know many consider some of these high tiers now..Oh wait . That exists, right. Nevermind, multijabs are fiiiiine!
Even then, doesn't Robin already beat those two to begin with?
Yes, but losing your grab-based kill confirm isn't ever a good thing. It's harder to kill someone when they can just sit in shield a lot.
What makes Final Destination so good for Lucas?
According to Dath's last MU chart (made in May), he says both are 65:35 in favor of Robin. Spearwing's puts both at 60:40 Robin (Made in July), but Skorpio puts Robin/Bowser at even and Robin/Charizard at 45:55, Charizard's favor. (Made in August)
You're right, it's not. However, I'm sure you know that Robin wants opponents to shield Arcthunder and Arcfire so he can shield pressure you or just toss you off-stage. Disadvantage for heavies is atrocious all-around, so it's not a terrible trade-off, imo.
He has an amazing horizontal game but very poor tools for covering above him, especially on stage with tall platforms.
The entire stage is footstool city and we do not have to worry about platforms messing us up. If the Lucas player has their footstool game on point we can rack up a ton of damage or 0-death the majority of the cast except for 3 characters (those being Fox and Greninja due to their fast fall speed; Palutena because she immediately enters tumble upon being footstooled instead of having a delay.
Are Bowser and DK really gatekeepers? Because I don't see it at all. Sure, they have scary punish games off of simple grabs, but the characters that hate them the most seem to be neutral monsters who hate the idea that the rewards are so lopsided, and Lucario. It's not like they're Cloud, who says, "You have to be this disjointed to ride."T and Scizor's
Weight factoring throws aren't good or bad for balance; they're another game element. I'm fine with them. IMO
On the topic of weight,
OT Trivia: in early Mario Kart games
"Gatekeepers" wasn't the best term. What I meant was DK/Bowser's punish game seriously outclasses lower ranked characters in general. Many characters would do well vs them if not for their crazy hoo haws. Above them you see more of powerful ways to exploit opponents like Ryu's UTilt that lower characters lack. "Borderline" characters is a better term.
But fox has a better boxing game..."Gatekeepers" wasn't the best term. What I meant was DK/Bowser's punish game seriously outclasses lower ranked characters in general. Many characters would do well vs them if not for their crazy hoo haws. Above them you see more of powerful ways to exploit opponents like Ryu's UTilt that lower characters lack. "Borderline" characters is a better term.
From a Ganon perspective, DK is hell to fight due to his boxing game. Maybe it's me but that MU feels terrible. I'd rather fight Fox
In the Ganon vs Fox MU, Ganon has better range with his limbs so he can play a footsies game with pivot FTilt, DA, shield grab, etc. VS DK, DK's arms are about as long as Ganon's legs and much faster. DK can really shut down Ganon with pokes like Dtilt, Bair, and like
ぱみゅ
mentioned, a scary grab kill confirm. DK has control over midrange and slaps Ganon out of his laggy moves with intangible arms.
I wouldn't say they outclass lower ranked characters for their grab games, it really depends on the matchup and how the characters interact. Bowser and DK are too polarizing to really be gatekeepers, especially since their grab combos work differently depending on the character, some less reliable than others."Gatekeepers" wasn't the best term. What I meant was DK/Bowser's punish game seriously outclasses lower ranked characters in general. Many characters would do well vs them if not for their crazy hoo haws. Above them you see more of powerful ways to exploit opponents like Ryu's UTilt that lower characters lack. "Borderline" characters is a better term.
From a Ganon perspective, DK is hell to fight due to his boxing game. Maybe it's me but that MU feels terrible. I'd rather fight Fox
Some examples of factors you do not fully control include:
Is it really right to use a 16 month old MU chart to prove a point? I think from the aggregate MU chart project (or whatever it is called; I don't have a link to it) that was on Reddit, there are more updated DK charts from this year and past months.Ganon's just a bad character. His weakness isn't good frame data, although it helps, but rather being shut down. This can happen in several ways and DK's one of them. SSB4 has good balance so even Ganon can play footsies and be threatening.
Larry Lurr has DK beating Ganon and Jiggs with a significant advantage. And Link as even, which I agree with.
I still think dk/bowser have that edge other mid-tiers lack. DK more so.
Do you have a link? Updated charts are always better.
Thanks. I'm not on reddit and didn't know they had current lists.
(Editing in text since I hit post too early)
players I could look up on youtube? TBH I haven't seen much of him played at a high level.
What is that, and why is Fox bad at it?
Rockcrocking is when you get hit by dark dive ,are sent to a wall of a stage, and then tech the throw of dark dive and kill him for trying to recover.
The only "high-level" Lucas you'll probably spot in the US at huge tournies is Mekos.Who are the active
If that's the case, can't Fox fair footstool Ganon out of it?
He can't since Ganon goes too high, even if he could Ganon would recover easily.
I'm curious, which characters would you say do the best at punishing Ganon out of Dark Dive?
Just about anyone with a spike or a strong forward facing aerial option (could be a special too).
From the top of my head: Ganondorf, Donkey kong and Marcina are all extremely good at rockcrocking.