Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[freeziebeatz]

OrionRank Update!

Hello everyone. If you haven't saw, I am discontinuing the smashboards thread due to having not enough time this semester. But, I will be posting things here.

This is what OrionRank will be classifying events of the year (some may change and I'll add a star (*) to it if it is tentative. It is going to depend on qualified entrants for some.

Spoiler: Category 5+ (Top 96 Qualify)

Genesis 4
Civil War Saga
EVO 2017

Spoiler: Category 5 (Top 64 Qualify)

Nairo Saga
CEO 2017
Super Smash Con 2017
Fire Emblem Saga

Spoiler: Category 5- (Top 48 Qualify)

Shine 2017
The Big House 7(*)
2GG Championship

Spoiler: Category 4+ (Top 32 Qualify)

Genesis Saga
Midwest Mayhem Saga
Frostbite 2017
Frame Perfect Series 2
CEO Dreamland
Umebura Japan Major 2017
Greninja Saga
MomoCon 2017
ARMS Saga
DreamHack Atlanta
SCR Saga
West Side Saga
GameTyrant Expo 2017
MKLeo Saga (*)
Umebura TAT (*)

Spoiler: Category 4- (Top 16 Qualify)

NicoNico Tokaigi Cup 2017
BEAST 7
Syndicate 2017
Smash 4 Boot Camp

 

[Skeeter Mania]

OrionRank Update!

Hello everyone. If you haven't saw, I am discontinuing the smashboards thread due to having not enough time this semester. But, I will be posting things here.

This is what OrionRank will be classifying events of the year (some may change and I'll add a star (*) to it if it is tentative. It is going to depend on qualified entrants for some.

Spoiler: Category 5+ (Top 96 Qualify)

Genesis 4
Civil War Saga
EVO 2017

Spoiler: Category 5 (Top 64 Qualify)

Nairo Saga
CEO 2017
Super Smash Con 2017
Fire Emblem Saga

Spoiler: Category 5- (Top 48 Qualify)

Shine 2017
The Big House 7(*)
2GG Championship

Spoiler: Category 4+ (Top 32 Qualify)

Genesis Saga
Midwest Mayhem Saga
Frostbite 2017
Frame Perfect Series 2
CEO Dreamland
Umebura Japan Major 2017
Greninja Saga
MomoCon 2017
ARMS Saga
DreamHack Atlanta
SCR Saga
West Side Saga
GameTyrant Expo 2017
MKLeo Saga (*)
Umebura TAT (*)

Spoiler: Category 4- (Top 16 Qualify)

NicoNico Tokaigi Cup 2017
BEAST 7
Syndicate 2017
Smash 4 Boot Camp

I'm a bit in shock.

Why consider only Top 64 results for Smash Con when not only was it not too far off from Evo in terms of how stacked it was, but it had even more entrants (1531 compared to Evo's 1508)? On top of this, the way events are tiered according to the PGR aren't consistent with this ranking.

Ex.: Nairo Saga, Frostbite (not quite, but extremely close), BH7, GTX, CEO, and Shine, despite being S tier events, are only counting Top 64 events at best. Is this because of number of entrants?

 

[adom4]

Out of curiosity, do you think he wins any matchups?

Ganon's highly susceptible to getting camped out like a lot of low tiers and his recovery is bottom 5. He packs good range, exceptional power, and decent burst options, though. EDIT: His edgeguarding game has been terrifying since Brawl, honestly. If he actually had air speed/recovery in general he's be a monster.

I really don't like the matchup as Game & Watch, honestly. Too volatile. I think Game & Watch wins, but his weight makes it risky.

I think he beats Puff, Doc, Kirby and Charizard, those are the only ones i feel confident that he beats for now (even those are only slight advantages tho)
also tbh he has more trouble with good aggression/crossups than camping most of the time, having such good range and burst options is amazing vs camping but his anti crossup options barely exist.

Actually, I'd like to ask adom (or anyone who wants to answer really) about two MUs I've been wondering about for a while now: Lucario and Ryu.
I understand why Ryu wins (combos, good kill power, shoryu is hard to intercept), and why Lucario wins (AS being a good projectile and aura can beat rage ganon), but in the right player's hands could either these be at least somewhat doable?

Lucario is definitely doable, just kind of annoying since Ganon's not as safe as he'd want on his shield because of his traction + broken shield grab.
Ryu is kind of hard but i feel that the MU might improve in the future, but i need more exp vs Ryu before i'm 100% on that.

 

[freeziebeatz]

I'm a bit in shock.

Why consider only Top 64 results for Smash Con when not only was it not too far off from Evo in terms of how stacked it was, but it had even more entrants (1531 compared to Evo's 1508)? On top of this, the way events are tiered according to the PGR aren't consistent with this ranking.

Ex.: Nairo Saga, Frostbite (not quite, but extremely close), BH7, GTX, CEO, and Shine, despite being S tier events, are only counting Top 64 events at best. Is this because of number of entrants?

1) "While the tournament was stacked, it wasn't at the level of Genesis, Civil War, or EVO. Those 3 all had players who were potential Top 100 in their Top 96. This tournament, like CEO and Nairo Saga, had a lot of strong players, but not enough to fill up 96 spots of talent imo, and did not have the international representation we see at these other events." - A response I had to someone who asked the same question 2 months ago. Still standing by this.

2) We aren't trying to be PGR. We have our own ideals when it comes to rankings. Nairo Saga and CEO I covered above, though both of them and SSC are Cat 5 which is like our S Tier I suppose. G4, Civil War, and EVO I guess would be our S+ Tier. But to us its all about the overall quality of players rather than quantity. Does a tournament have top talent in Top 10-20 terms? Does it have a nice fill of potential Top 100 players? There is a lot to look at when determining these qualifications. GTX is a good example of a tournament that has a lot of top talent but lacks the meat of potential top 100 to make it into the 5- area. Category 5 in general is saved for the tournaments that are really above the rest in terms of top talent, overall talent, regional presences, national presences, international presences (both top players and strong players), and a little bit of entrant numbers as well.

3) Should add this to lessen confusion. The breaking of + and - only effects players who qualify for OrionRank. All Cat 4 are still scored the same, and Cat 5 and 5- are scored the same. 5+ get a little extra boost just due to how stacked they are in comparison to the rest. On top of that, we still take all the results and wins into account of the tournament. We have almost 300 players we are keeping track of this year for a Top 100. If we are not a little strict on giving ranks, it would be a bit overload on the amount of players who qualify who wouldn't even make a Top 200.

 

[Lord Dio]

Out of curiosity, why is DHA the only Dreamhack being counted as a Category 4, and not Montreal and Austin as well?

 

[Laken64]

Sumabato 20 (Kansai, Japan) (222 Enatrants)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato20T

1st: Aki
2nd: Ron
3rd: Edge
4th: Sigma
5th: HIKARU
5th: 2GG | Komorikiri
7th: Nietono
7th: Nishya
9th: Masha
9th: Rampel
9th: Masashi
9th: Rizeasu
13th: Shogun
13th: NGA
13th: Kiosk
13th: Matcha

Spoiler: Notable Upsets

Agehasama 2-1 Sigma
Aki 2-1 Gomamugutya
Kisha 2-1 Edge
OCEAN 2-0 FILIP
Kazmi 2-1 Chanshu
Tatsutsuyo 2-0 Ri-ma
Arc 2-1 Kuro
Agehasama 2-0 Gomamugitya
Asui 2-0 Kuro
Nishya 2-1 Kisha
NGA 2-1 Chanshu
Nishya 2-1 Ri-ma
Aki 2-0 Rizeasu
Nishya 2-0 Rizeasu
Aki 3-0 HIKARU
Aki 3-2 Ron
Ron 3-2 Edge

Oisiitofu out at 17th.
Chanshu out at 25th.
Kuro out at 33rd.
Kisha out at 33rd.
Gomamugitya out at 33rd.
Ri-ma out at 65th.
FILIP out at 65th.

And yes, Komo went all .

Wait this is a Japanese major right? So is this the first major has won since prepatch??? Why is no one talking about this???

Out of curiosity, why is DHA the only Dreamhack being counted as a Category 4, and not Montreal and Austin as well?

DHA was literally after EVO, you had pretty much all of the top 10 there except for Aba and Komo. And you got a good chunk of your top 15-20 and top 50 players there as well in attendance moreso than any of the other dreamhack events.

 

[freeziebeatz]

Out of curiosity, why is DHA the only Dreamhack being counted as a Category 4, and not Montreal and Austin as well?

Tbh, Das Koopa does the Categorizing more than me but if I had to guess, overall talent. Southeast as a region is fairly strong and the darkhorse of Sm4sh imo. Also compared too the other DreamHacks so far, there was a lot of top players who attended as well as top 100 threats from Florida which adds more to the pot.

 

[verbatim]

Wait this is a Japanese major right? So is this the first major has won since prepatch??? Why is no one talking about this???

Sumbato is a monthly series.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I hope I'm not way too early on this, but does anyone have any idea when we should expect the next tier list to come out? It's been very nearly 6 months since this one, and the game hasn't been patched.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I hope I'm not way too early on this, but does anyone have any idea when we should expect the next tier list to come out? It's been very nearly 6 months since this one, and the game hasn't been patched.

I don't think there is going to be another tier list precisely because there haven't been any patches. The current tier list was made when the last patch was released.

 

[Game7a1]

I don't think there is going to be another tier list precisely because there haven't been any patches. The current tier list was made when the last patch was released.

1.1.6, the last balancing patch, came out in May 20th, 2016.
The current tier list came out March 1st, 2017.
The last patch, 1.1.7, came out July 18th, 2017.

The tier lists aren't made to coincide with the patch releases, and ever since then, some characters have risen in prominence while others have fallen. An update would be nice.

Although it is strange to say we have been dealing with the same patch (1.1.6 and 1.1.7 are essentially the same for competitive purposes) for almost 20 months.

 

[Lord Dio]

I mean, a good deal has changed since February.........
it would be nice to see an update

 

[MERPIS]

4th tier list when

 

[Big Green]

Because 2018 is around the corner, it shouldn't be too long.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Any sort of major changes?

 

[Das Koopa]

Out of curiosity, why is DHA the only Dreamhack being counted as a Category 4, and not Montreal and Austin as well?

Skill pool

Compare the top 32 for each event

https://www.ssbwiki.com/DreamHack_Atlanta_2017#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles
https://www.ssbwiki.com/DreamHack_Austin_2017#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles
https://www.ssbwiki.com/DreamHack_Montreal_2017#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles

Atlanta's is dramatically higher than both. The Southeast in general has a pretty big talent pool to work with between Florida/Georgia/Carolinas while Texas/Canada are comparatively limited, which nails them down further on top of neither Austin nor Montreal being as top-heavy as Atlanta was

I'm a bit in shock.

Why consider only Top 64 results for Smash Con when not only was it not too far off from Evo in terms of how stacked it was, but it had even more entrants (1531 compared to Evo's 1508)? On top of this, the way events are tiered according to the PGR aren't consistent with this ranking.

Ex.: Nairo Saga, Frostbite (not quite, but extremely close), BH7, GTX, CEO, and Shine, despite being S tier events, are only counting Top 64 events at best. Is this because of number of entrants?

With SSC the skill pool issue remains similar: Category 5+ necessitates the Top 96 getting qualified, meaning people who placed as low as 65th are in. The limited international attendance compared to CW/G4/EVO puts it a brief step below despite the overall entrant count.

I'd consider Civil War the most skill-dense event of the year overall despite having the least entrants of all other 5+ events. It really has to do with players in attendance, what regions are there, and international presence (largely Japan as of right now) that has an effect on this.

It's usually eyeballed but you'll notice a lot of arguably extraneous qualifiers who have very little realistic chance at making the Top 100 this year. These are generally players that qualified off of a 65th or 49th, and we typically agree on categorization prior to an event based on the number of attendees who've qualified for OR + perceived potential qualifiers that are expected to do well.

 

[Yonder]

Any sort of major changes?

Massive changes off to the top of my head being ZSS going to S tier, Bowser and DK (especially) going to high tier.

Other notable changes include Olimar to high tier probably. Maaaaaybe Luigi.

Samus and Link to hop up a decent amount. Maybe Roy.


That's about it. Rest to me would be small changes.

 

[MERPIS]

Massive changes off to the top of my head being ZSS going to S tier, Bowser and DK (especially) going to high tier.

Other notable changes include Olimar to high tier probably. Maaaaaybe Luigi.

Samus and Link to hop up a decent amount. Maybe Roy.


That's about it. Rest to me would be small changes.

Zss in S tier? My boy what

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Massive changes off to the top of my head being ZSS going to S tier, Bowser and DK (especially) going to high tier.

Other notable changes include Olimar to high tier probably. Maaaaaybe Luigi.

Samus and Link to hop up a decent amount. Maybe Roy.


That's about it. Rest to me would be small changes.

What about Duck Hunt?

 

[Rizen]

I'm curious about that too. IMO S tier is cemented [].

 

[Yonder]

Zss in S tier? My boy what

Yes, ZSS has had phenomenal showing with Nairo taking multiple tournaments with her, her ladder have not gotten any less effective. She has really proven herself much more than characters like Mewtwo, Marth/Lucina, Mario, in down b leaps and bounds.

Let me clarify sorry I'm Falconing it at the gym RN...bottom of the S tier. Bayo, Cloud, Diddy are 100% top 3 with Sheik 90% 4th. ZSS is good guys, only that grab holds her back tbh.

What about Duck Hunt?

Yeah, I could see a good leap too with Raito making work. I think he should be slotted in front of Yoshi tbh. I'm not a DH main (but been recently using him on FG a lot) but I have faith in him...

 

[MERPIS]

Yes, ZSS has had phenomenal showing with Nairo taking multiple tournaments with her, her ladder have not gotten any less effective. She has really proven herself much more than characters like Mewtwo, Marth/Lucina, Mario, in down b leaps and bounds.



Yeah, I could see a good leap too with Raito making work. I think he should be slotted in front of Yoshi tbh. I'm not a DH main (but been recently using him on FG a lot) but I have faith in him...

But isnt S tier only for top 3-5 range? And I doubt ZSS has improved THAT much. This is nairo we’re talking about, he could win a major with most of the top 10-15 range. And if you're going to ask "are you saying Nairo carries ZSS?" I am saying exactly that.

 

[Yonder]

But isnt S tier only for top 3-5 range? And I doubt ZSS has improved THAT much. This is nairo we’re talking about, he could win a major with most of the top 10-15 range. And if you're going to ask "are you saying Nairo carries ZSS?" I am saying exactly that.

I edited my previous post a bit to say I think she is about 5/6th but still S tier. Rosa and Sonic are contenders for 5th but I think ZSS is still better than that crowd. Barely.

 

[MERPIS]

I edited my previous post a bit to say I think she is about 5/6th but still S tier. Rosa and Sonic are contenders for 5th but I think ZSS is still better than that crowd. Barely.

I can agree with her being better than rosalina, but definitely not sonic, also, for how many flaws she has you seem to put her insanely bloody high.

 

[Yonder]

I can agree with her being better than rosalina, but definitely not sonic, also, for how many flaws she has you seem to put her insanely bloody high.

I see her as a Sheik who trades some neutral and grab for way more kill power and effective set ups. Then again, ZSS has needed Bowser's help to get these top placings compared to Sonic now that I think about it...it's pretty interchangeable between ZSS and Sonic, but I have a lot of faith in her. Depends how the meta turns. If it becomes more campy, Sonic will be superior. And ZSS on Dreamland counterpick is like, the scariest thing in the game...

 

[Rizen]

Yes, ZSS has had phenomenal showing with Nairo taking multiple tournaments with her, her ladder have not gotten any less effective. She has really proven herself much more than characters like Mewtwo, Marth/Lucina, Mario, in down b leaps and bounds.

Let me clarify sorry I'm Falconing it at the gym RN...bottom of the S tier. Bayo, Cloud, Diddy are 100% top 3 with Sheik 90% 4th. ZSS is good guys, only that grab holds her back tbh.



Yeah, I could see a good leap too with Raito making work. I think he should be slotted in front of Yoshi tbh. I'm not a DH main (but been recently using him on FG a lot) but I have faith in him...

IMO ZSS belongs more with Rosa and co, but watching Nairo's ZSS is a pretty good case.

(3-0s Zach's Bayo) I'm trying to get through CEO; I don't have time for all these great games .

On another note, anyone who thinks ZeRo monopolizes diddy needs to check out MDV and Zinoto.

 

[MERPIS]

I see her as a Sheik who trades some neutral and grab for way more kill power and effective set ups. Then again, ZSS has needed Bowser's help to get these top placings compared to Sonic now that I think about it...it's pretty interchangeable between ZSS and Sonic, but I have a lot of faith in her. Depends how the meta turns. If it becomes more campy, Sonic will be superior. And ZSS on Dreamland counterpick is like, the scariest thing in the game...

but her flaws are just so much more notable and detrimental than most other top tiers.

 

[Das Koopa]

Weekend update!

Syndicate 2017 (September 23rd-24th) (Netherlands) (338 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st:

bc | Mr. R
2nd:

KEN
3rd:

Glutonny
4th:

cyve , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
5th:

iStudying
5th:

TCL | Purple~H (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
7th:

BYOC | S1 ,,
7th:

BSD | quiK
9th:

GK | WiiASE ,
9th:

adom (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th:

Relapse | Griffith (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th:

Supahsemmie (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th:

IxisNaugus
13th:

Sheik Discord | DKHo (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th:

eR | LoNg0uw (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
13th:

Wolves.wusi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

Spoiler: Showdown: Battle Royale 2 (September 23rd-24th) (Midwest) (154 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Fatality
2nd: Manny
3rd: WaDi ,,
4th: Cosmos
5th: Mistake
5th: 6WX
7th: Samsora
7th: Shoyo James ,
9th: tyroy
9th: Mr. E
9th: dyr
9th: Javi ,
13th: Myran
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: DarkShad
13th: Ryuga

Spoiler: Sumabato 20 (September 24th) (Kansai) (222 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Aki
2nd: Ron &
3rd: Edge
4th: Sigma
5th: komorikiri
5th: HIKARU
7th: Nishya
7th: Nietono ,, ,,
9th: Masha
9th: Rampel
9th: Masashi
9th: Rizeasu &
13th: Shogun
13th: Kiosk &
13th: NGA
13th: Matcha

Spoiler: Spa-Con Showdown 2017 (September 23rd-24th) (Inland/Gulf Southeast) (109 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Lima
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: JaySon
4th: Sonido
5th: Makibaz , , ,
5th: Phenom
7th: Danbi ,
7th: Nev

Spoiler: Ignition 100 (September 21st) (Midwest) (191 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Javi
2nd: Ned
3rd: Tyroy ,
4th: JJROCKETS
5th: Zephyr
5th: Seth
7th: NiTe
7th: Fade

Spoiler: Geneva Gaming Convention 2017 (September 22nd-24th) (Switzerland) (92 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Sodrek &
2nd: Destany
3rd: Elexiao
4th: Homika
5th: Zudenka
5th: MT
7th: Tsuba
7th: Radiance

Spoiler: Austin Is Really Feeling It 18 (September 23rd) (Texas) (74 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Vinnie
2nd: Megafox
3rd: Hakii
4th: Jumbo
5th: Deluxemenu ,,
5th: Jerma , ,
7th: Whispy
7th: BC

Spoiler: WeTecThose 5 (September 23rd) (Mexico) (125 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Rox
2nd: Wonf &
3rd: seveR
4th: Hex
5th: Daige
5th: FCQ
7th: kaitO
7th: CO-SRK

Spoiler: ConComic Music 2017 (September 23rd-24th) (Mexico) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Bedgar
2nd: FuerzaDon
3rd: QROG
4th: Urigato

Spoiler: Border Sm4sh 4 (September 23rd-24th) (Mexico) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ac
2nd: Laloba
3rd: IC
4th: Ez

Spoiler: Smash ULtime 4 (September 23rd-24th) (Quebec) (59 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Venom
2nd: Fwed
3rd: Z
4th: flieskiller

Spoiler: Chousen: Paradise Con (September 23rd-24th) (Dominican Republic) (60 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sonix
2nd: Sharpyzard
3rd: R.R. Keekay
4th: SIN-XERO

Spoiler: Coffee Boys 17 (September 24th) (Florida) (50 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Ryo , ,
2nd: Tachyon
3rd: saj.
4th: WonderBread

Spoiler: TCNJapes 2 (September 23rd) (Tristate) (45 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: The Great Gonzales
2nd: Tokyo
3rd: Law
4th: MaverickHunter

Spoiler: Dash Dance Revolution (September 23rd) (Atlantic Southeast) (25 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Peabnut
2nd: RFang
3rd: Moser
4th: Rat

Spoiler: Grand Capital Smash 5 (September 23rd) (Ontario) (39 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Deathorse
2nd: HamOnRye
3rd: Excalibur
4th: BreaD

Spoiler: Button Check 5 (September 23rd) (Midwest) (39 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: StardusT
2nd: Mister Eric
3rd: CptPuff
4th: TastyComeWife ,

Spoiler: A September Smash Special (September 23rd) (West Canada) (61 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Strike
2nd: Jackson
3rd: ItsSonic
4th: Sylarius ,, ,,

Spoiler: Character Results (Updated)

Diddy Kong: 113.25
Bayonetta: 102.5
Cloud: 88
Sheik: 86
Fox: 85.25
Sonic: 83
Mario: 69.75
Rosalina & Luma: 42
Mewtwo: 39
Captain Falcon: 37.5
Zero Suit Samus: 36
Toon Link: 35
Ryu: 34.5
Greninja: 31
Luigi: 25.5
Ness: 24.5
Meta Knight: 22.5
Pikachu: 21.5
Villager: 18
Donkey Kong: 16.5
Yoshi: 16
Mega Man: 15
Samus: 14
Olimar: 14
Peach: 14
Link: 13.5
Roy: 12.5
Corrin: 12
Ike: 10
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Lucas: 9
R.O.B.: 8.25
Lucario: 8
Shulk: 8
Bowser: 7
Little Mac: 7
Wario: 6
Lucina: 6
Falco: 4
Ganondorf: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Robin: 3
King Dedede: 2
Marth: 2
Zelda: 2
Pit: 2
Bowser Jr.: 2
Charizard: 1
Jigglypuff: 0.25

 

[Lord Dio]

As far as S tier I could honestly see Rosa and ZSS breaking in, with Fox being at the top of the next highest tier. Tbh ZSS and Rosa have been so strangely strong this year that everyone seems to have done kind of lackluster........
Also a possible major change, and probably too early for speculation, but I think Falcon would be a prime candidate to move up multiple spots. He's in bottom of high right now.......and since February he's won a nicely-sized regional (at least I think that's what Showdown was), and gotten second at two majors, one of which was Civil War. I think Falcon will definitely rise a good deal to around middle of high tier.

 

[Krysco]

New tier list talk and no mention of yet. Quite surprising given how so many people had a gripe with his current spot when the current tier list first came out. I'm also curious if will be staying in top tier. Other than that, I'm just waiting for the day my boy gets out of low tier.

 

[MERPIS]

New tier list talk and no mention of yet. Quite surprising given how so many people had a gripe with his current spot when the current tier list first came out. I'm also curious if will be staying in top tier. Other than that, I'm just waiting for the day my boy gets out of low tier.

corrin will probably lower a bit, same with lucina if people open their eyes

 

[The-Technique]

corrin will probably lower a bit, same with lucina if people open their eyes

why would corrin be placed lower when she's actually getting results reflective of her current placing? thats the main issue people had at the beginning (me included, gotta be honest)

and given ZSS's consistently top 8ing every major, S tier doesnt far fetched at all. also you dont get the full picture of a character by only highlighting their weaknesses without acknowledging their strengths. ZSS is an anomoly in the roster, she's a fast mobile character who can take stocks very efficiently, and often at low percents. being at a percent or stock deficit literally doesnt matter to her at top level play

 

[Lord Dio]

Tbh if there are any real changes I feel like it'd be basically a rearrangement of high tier......

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Weekend update!

Spoiler: Dash Dance Revolution (September 23rd) (Atlantic Southeast) (25 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Peabnut
2nd: RFang
3rd: Moser
4th: Rat

Rfang also used ZSS and Rat plays Bayonetta not Corrin

 

[verbatim]

Weekend update!

Spoiler: Character Results (Updated)

Diddy Kong: 113.25
Bayonetta: 102.5
Cloud: 88
Sheik: 86
Fox: 85.25
Sonic: 83
Mario: 69.75
Rosalina & Luma: 42
Mewtwo: 39
Captain Falcon: 37.5
Zero Suit Samus: 36
Toon Link: 35
Ryu: 34.5
Greninja: 31
Luigi: 25.5
Ness: 24.5
Meta Knight: 22.5
Pikachu: 21.5
Villager: 18
Donkey Kong: 16.5
Yoshi: 16
Mega Man: 15
Samus: 14
Olimar: 14
Peach: 14
Link: 13.5
Roy: 12.5
Corrin: 12
Ike: 10
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Lucas: 9
R.O.B.: 8.25
Lucario: 8
Shulk: 8
Bowser: 7
Little Mac: 7
Wario: 6
Lucina: 6
Falco: 4
Ganondorf: 4
Wii Fit Trainer: 3
Palutena: 3
Robin: 3
King Dedede: 2
Marth: 2
Zelda: 2
Pit: 2
Bowser Jr.: 2
Charizard: 1
Jigglypuff: 0.25

Pac-Man isn't in this? I could of sworn Sinji qualified at one of the DreamHacks?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I really wish I had a way of knowing whether Wario is much better than people think or if Gluttony just carries the character. Gluttony is obviously good but I don't think there is a single other notable Wario anywhere. I wish he would come in the USA and compete in our majors.

 

[Routa]

Wario is poop
Glutonny has top 10 fundamentals
The End

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Wario is poop
Glutonny has top 10 fundamentals
The End

I pretty much agree with you yes, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with getting more data. At the very least it would be entertaining. I can only watch Diddy Kong down tilt into up smash so many times.

Though, if Gluttony could get major results in the USA using Wario, that means that Wario is better than we think by the sheer fact that someone would actually be winning with him.

 

[The-Technique]

Wario is poop
Glutonny has top 10 fundamentals
The End

I haven't seen any Wario land kill setups (like those f-air resets into charged f-smash or falling u-air to waft) and edgeguards with the consistency Glutonny does. There's a lot of things holding Wario back that he'll never be a great character, but I don't think there's any other player with Glutonny's mastery of him, imo its too soon to write the character off

 

[Routa]

Landing Uair is actually really difficult. It has to do with the tiny hitbox (if only it had Brawl's hitbox). It is extremely difficult to do and somehow Glutonny manages to get it constantly on Diddy. ON DIDDY. If you think some footstool combos are hard then oh boy are you in for a ride.

I think that @TheReflexWonder and @Poisonous are far better at explaining Wario stuff than I.