Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Hippieslayer]

I think its mostly Glutonny being very good. Not just his fundamentals that seems top 10, he is a very smart player. Similar to Ally.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I pretty much agree with you yes, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with getting more data. At the very least it would be entertaining. I can only watch Diddy Kong down tilt into up smash so many times.

Though, if Gluttony could get major results in the USA using Wario, that means that Wario is better than we think by the sheer fact that someone would actually be winning with him.

Or rather that would mean more would take him seriously.

 

[MERPIS]

Pac-Man isn't in this? I could of sworn Sinji qualified at one of the DreamHacks?

oh how the mewtwo have fallen

 

[HoSmash4]

Even if wario is just glutonny another Wario Wreck it Mundo still got 33rd.

 

[adom4]

Wario is poop
Glutonny has top 10 fundamentals
The End

Wreck it Mundo got 33rd at syndicate with solo Wario as well, while it isn't on the same level of Gluto it's still a very very decent result considering he wasn't even seeded to make it out of pools.

 

[Routa]

Mundo is known to be a great player. I would also like to add that the seeding in Syndicate was really poorly done. I would also point that a Little Mac placed 17th. Poor characters can place well.
In the end how the player uses their character's tools matters the most when it comes to getting results.

 

[MERPIS]

Buff wallio

 

[Nu~]

Glutonny's creativity with Wario's tools will never cease to amaze me

 

[Nemesis561]

Glutonny’s mastery of his character is a thing of beauty. The things that he is doing with Wario are so difficult and the fact that he is consistently able to pull it off is just amazing. He is single handedly carrying the Wario meta on his back, but I don’t think Wario is very good. Glutonny is an anomaly imo who is one of the best players in the world but decides to play a rather lackluster character. (He played him in Brawl as well). The ideal playstyle for Wario is more of a campy passive style, but Glutonny throws that out the window and plays an in your face aggressive style that most Wario players would not be able to pull off. I really hope he can compete in more US tournaments in the future

 

[Das Koopa]

Glutonny has been winning events since 2009 and defeated Ally in 2010 at BBI. He's a pretty accomplished Brawl veteran in this regard so it doesn't really surprise me than he has the significant fundamentals required to contend with very high level players like KEN, and I think it's fair to say KEN is top 10-ish right now.

I think Wario holds him back a lot the same way I think Duck Hunt probably holds back players like Brood (another accomplished Brawl vet) and Raito. However, if these players have stuck with their low-mids for years with significant dedication, it's probably a sign that they enjoy the character and would rather stick with them.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I always wonder which players would benefit from swapping mains and which ones would remain around the same level. It's interesting to ponder.

 

[|RK|]

I always wonder which players would benefit from swapping mains and which ones would remain around the same level. It's interesting to ponder.

Yup. Sometimes (a lot of the time, TBH), affinity with a character is what helps people to grow. Some people don't really care, and can use characters interchangeably - which is really good as an attribute... but having a character that fits your style is important.

Regarding Wario in particular, I'm not sure if there's a character above him that fits the same style he does (I know Jiggs is often said to be a worse version of Wario in a number of ways, though). But I also don't know if Gluttony is more attached to the playstyle, the character, etc.

 

[blackghost]

I always wonder which players would benefit from swapping mains and which ones would remain around the same level. It's interesting to ponder.

It's interesting some players were obviously held back see tweek. Some players switch with awful results (aba) and some players are just able to excel with anyone (nairo) .
I don't feel like brood or raito is held back by duck hunt I think duck hunt mu are just really bad against relevant characters

 

[Rizen]

I don't feel like brood or raito is held back by duck hunt I think duck hunt mu are just really bad against relevant characters

This sentence makes no sense.

Although I have to admit, DH does pretty well against Sheik.
Ratio beats Mr.R 3-1.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Glutonny’s mastery of his character is a thing of beauty. The things that he is doing with Wario are so difficult and the fact that he is consistently able to pull it off is just amazing. He is single handedly carrying the Wario meta on his back, but I don’t think Wario is very good. Glutonny is an anomaly imo who is one of the best players in the world but decides to play a rather lackluster character. (He played him in Brawl as well). The ideal playstyle for Wario is more of a campy passive style, but Glutonny throws that out the window and plays an in your face aggressive style that most Wario players would not be able to pull off. I really hope he can compete in more US tournaments in the future

Aye, its such a shame Wario is so obviously undertuned in this game, gameplan wise he's pretty okay IMO, but his moves are just too weak, bair should be stronger, usmash should either be stronger or not be so goddamn laggy, his jab should be a move that you actually use, and his uair should be able to KO. It's not right that the character cant KO outside of edgeguards, footstool combos into waft or smashes, or just waft. Bair and Uair in particular are pathetically weak in terms of KO potential, his bair is considered a kill move, but it really takes a lot of percent or the opponent being at the ledge or offstage for it to kill at somewhat reasonable percentages.

It's such a shame because the character is one of the more unique and interesting in the game, a trickster through and through who on the surface doesn't seem to have much going for him, lacking range, killpower and damage output. But he makes up for the lack of range via unique mobility specs, and while generally lacking killpower has a few ways in which he can kill super early, and his damage output is actually not bad if you master his combos. Being very difficult to kill while having another uncommon feature in the anti camping mechanism that is waft also helps solidify his uniqueness. He can alway make a comeback and that makes watching him very exciting.

I don't think there's any player i'd rather watch than Glutonny, and judging from the twitch chat I'm not alone in that regard, people were asking about Glutonny constantly when he wasn't on stream and when he was the activity level skyrocketed. Allez Glutonny!

 

[Das Koopa]

Pac-Man isn't in this? I could of sworn Sinji qualified at one of the DreamHacks?

The character results stuff reset on Sept. 1st.

 

[Hippieslayer]

There needs to be more vidz of glutonny on youtube, if he just had a little more exposure he could easily get sponsored for tournaments abroad.

 

[FeelMeUp]

This sentence makes no sense.

Although I have to admit, DH does pretty well against Sheik.
Ratio beats Mr.R 3-1.

Nah, actually. The matchup is pretty poopy.
Sheik is one of the only characters with a better neutral than Duck Hunt, comparable kill power(in terms of the matchup itself, gl hitting ftilt on a good DH), one of the most abusive offstage games against characters with bad recoveries, and ridiculous ledge trapping.
The difficult point of the matchup is the way rising fair always needs to be spaced perfectly to hit DH, meaning none of your moves OoS can hit him if he's right next to you but slightly out of shield grab range. This tripped up Mr. R A LOT because he heavily relies on his OoS game when trying to find offensive openings.

 

[Rizen]

Nah, actually. The matchup is pretty poopy.
Sheik is one of the only characters with a better neutral than Duck Hunt, comparable kill power(in terms of the matchup itself, gl hitting ftilt on a good DH), one of the most abusive offstage games against characters with bad recoveries, and ridiculous ledge trapping.
The difficult point of the matchup is the way rising fair always needs to be spaced perfectly to hit DH, meaning none of your moves OoS can hit him if he's right next to you but slightly out of shield grab range. This tripped up Mr. R A LOT because he heavily relies on his OoS game when trying to find offensive openings.

That makes sense, Sheik's really good.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nah, actually. The matchup is pretty poopy.

Opinion, m8.

 

[Krysco]

Opinion, m8.

I mean, every mu is an opinion and FeelMeUp went into a bit of detail and Sheik is a top tier while Duck Hunt is a mid tier and while not always true, top tiers do tend to have good mus vs lower tiered characters.

If you disagree with what FeelMeUp said, I'd be interested in hearing why.

 

[verbatim]

Sheik destroys Duck Hunt offstage, but there are a lot of chaotic factors that help Duck Hunt Dog and make it very volatile, a la DK or Bowser.

• DHD has a lot of options to block needles

• DHD's inability to kill often leads to high rage on opponents, which Sheik can't take atdvantage very well compared to most top tiers

• Can disrupts a LOT of Sheik's options.

• DHD is literally the only character in the game with better roll data than Sheik, in addition to being comparably fast to her in the air, with more disjointed aerials

Here's a very powerful situation in the neutral: Duck Hunt Dog has a can behind him and Sheik is in front of him. There are a lot of cause and effect situations that can happen based on who wins the neutral engagement:

• DHD commits to a shield and gets grabbed by Sheik --> can interrupts her grab

• DHD commits to a shield and blocks an attack by Sheik --> he throws her into a can combo

• DHD runs in and commits to a grab or attack --> this is a normal neutral encounter, if someone shields an attack they win, if someone gets hit they lose, Sheik gets much more reward and DHD can't protect himself with can (probably).

• Sheik succesfully lands an attack --> Sheik starts a combo that might be broken up by can

• Neither character approaches --> Sheik tries to hit with needles while DHD tries to block needles with gunman and hit her back with gunman and clay disc

 

[Locke 06]

Here's a very powerful situation in the neutral: Duck Hunt Dog has a can behind him and Sheik is in front of him. There are a lot of cause and effect situations that can happen based on who wins the neutral engagement:

• DHD commits to a shield and blocks an attack by Sheik --> he throws her into a can combo

Lol. Good joke.

 

[TurboLink]

Lets go Fatality! WOO!
Also been waiting for someone to bring up the Zack tweet, since the community's blowing up about it.......

AHAHAHAHA

Doesn't this guy PLAY Bayonetta?

 

[MERPIS]

Lets go Fatality! WOO!
Also been waiting for someone to bring up the Zack tweet, since the community's blowing up about it.......

what is the tweet?

 

[TDK]

Promaelia has been confirmed for FE saga.

 

[Aaron1997]

Rizen He means that DHD is not a bad character at all, its just he has bad MU's vs some really popular characters

He's one of those character's that if DLC didn't exist, he would be High tier along with and a lesser extant

 

[blackghost]

Rizen He means that DHD is not a bad character at all, its just he has bad MU's vs some really popular characters

He's one of those character's that if DLC didn't exist, he would be High tier along with and a lesser extant

basically yes.
Rizen
dhd has a good to decent MU vs diddy and is just straight suffering against bayo or cloud. add in fox and mario mu being close ot even but dhd having worse raw kill potential and being vulnerable to smash 4 factor the character struggles agianst many relevent popular characters

 

[R3D3MON]

Doesn't this guy PLAY Bayonetta?

That's the best part

 

[Rizen]

IMO DH struggling vs relevant MUs is holding players like ratio back. Not saying he should change mains but he would do better with a stronger character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Alright, drop the Zack/Bayo thing unless you have something relevant to add to the matter.
This is not the place to shade him for that.

As an example of actually adding something to it:
I want to make sense of what just happened. In mirror matches there are many instances where you feel like you played better, made few mistakes compared to your opponent, but they get a key move that changes the tides abruptly.
In that set it was Tyroy's Witch Times. In the Marth ditto it's a good Tipper. In the DK ditto is a grab.
But there more to it: Sm4sh is built with both the Rage Mechanic and a weird factor where mid/low tiers have Smashes able to kill you quite early. You are ahead at like 120-70, then you make a misinput, or get read, and your stock is done.
This game can be very unforgiving and very frustrating at times.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

But there more to it: Sm4sh is built with both the Rage Mechanic and a weird factor where mid/low tiers have Smashes able to kill you quite early. You are ahead at like 120-70, then you make a misinput, or get read, and your stock is done.

To give an example (yeah yeah zard fanboyism but this adds to it) zard has smashes which are slow and laggy but have stupid high kb and range. Proper spacing on him is a must because one good smash punish and your stock is done. This goes for characters like DDD and Ganon as well.

 

[|RK|]

Alright, drop the Zack/Bayo thing unless you have something relevant to add to the matter.
This is not the place to shade him for that.

As an example of actually adding something to it:
I want to make sense of what just happened. In mirror matches there are many instances where you feel like you played better, made few mistakes compared to your opponent, but they get a key move that changes the tides abruptly.
In that set it was Tyroy's Witch Times. In the Marth ditto it's a good Tipper. In the DK ditto is a grab.
But there more to it: Sm4sh is built with both the Rage Mechanic and a weird factor where mid/low tiers have Smashes able to kill you quite early. You are ahead at like 120-70, then you make a misinput, or get read, and your stock is done.
This game can be very unforgiving and very frustrating at times.

I feel like that's why ZeRo likes the Diddy ditto so much. Seems incredibly straightforward in comparison.

Meanwhile, I know MDVA's best Lucario - Qwerty - says he wouldn't do the ditto with someone at or below his level. IMO, Lucario dittos can *actually* carry people, and that's possibly the most volatile ditto in the game.

 

[Minordeth]

If anything, Smash 4 isn't unforgiving enough. This is the game that has historically given players tons of leeway for mistakes. It's why autopilot is still prevalent at the top level. I think, to a degree, Bayo by her nature, has forced the meta to try to optimize punishes. I've seen more Sheiks throw Fsmash in the last few months than I have in the last three years.

I mean, this isn't Melee where you will almost always lose a stock for messing up. It's also not a traditional fighter, where you can lose 50% of your bar for an over extension. Or, like in Tekken, just straight up lose a round for a choosing a poor neutral option.

 

[MERPIS]

If anything, Smash 4 isn't unforgiving enough. This is the game that has historically given players tons of leeway for mistakes. It's why autopilot is still prevalent at the top level. I think, to a degree, Bayo by her nature, has forced the meta to try to optimize punishes. I've seen more Sheiks throw Fsmash in the last few months than I have in the last three years.

I mean, this isn't Melee where you will almost always lose a stock for messing up. It's also not a traditional fighter, where you can lose 50% of your bar for an over extension. Or, like in Tekken, just straight up lose a round for a choosing a poor neutral option.

do you think children would play a game that lets you get away with 0-deathing an opponent just for making one mistake?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It's less I have to optimize my punishes because Bayo exists and more this punish is more optimal because well it's optimal i will maximize my advantage with this option rather than another or I'm more safe with this option then another. People are getting better, making better decisions and choices that's not because Bayonetta exists you can still get punished hard for choosing a bad option in this game by most of the cast. For example I make three to four bad decisions against DK and suddenly I'm getting Ding Dong'd at 70 and dying. Not as extreme as getting Witch Time once and dying no but still pretty unforgiving.

As people get better at advantage state it will make it alot more unforgiving to ever lose it in the first place no matter who your playing against especially when your down to your last stock after losing one of them. I will say though Bayonetta of course will be the most unforgiving to make a mistake against.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not necessarily related to Zack v Tyroy, but the Bayonetta ditto is unlike any other ditto in the game.

Bayonetta is one of, if not the easiest character to Witch Time; it's as simple as that.

For those that don't know, you can Witch Time Bayonetta's bullet art extensions; held Nair, Uair, Dtilt, any of them.

What's scary about this is that as long as one of these is Witch Time'd, the other Bayonetta will get slowed down. It doesn't matter how far away from the other Bayonetta she is, she will get slowed down. I'm not sure what the inner workings of the bullet art extensions are, but IIRC it's because while they aren't extending Bayonetta's hurtboxes, they're still attached to them or something, so regardless of how far away she is, she'll still get slowed down.

Effectively, this ditto needs to be played extremely differently from almost every other MU. The Bayonetta that uses more/relies more on bullet art extensions loses (as long as the other player is aware enough to call them out).

The best way to play this MU is to play slower and safer. Bullet Climax is classed as a regular projectile so it can be used at range without fear of being Witch Time'd. Bayonetta herself is also very tall so you can hit her quite easily with the initial hits before she can crouch. You want to be using this a lot. If you need to use aerials, rarely hold them. Even non held aerials are rather easy to Witch Time also, due to range and having generally large active frames. As such, the MU should be played at a slower pace, because once you give Bayonetta the opening, she can of course go in.

To be honest, this is why I think Salem has historically been poor at the Bayonetta ditto. Salem as a general rule, normally plays extremely safe. I don't know whether it's pressure (psychological pressure; pride gets put on the line a lot in dittos), but you watch Salem when playing the ditto. It's so uncharacteristic of him, but he tends to play a lot more aggressively. I remember his ditto vs Zack, and more recently vs Mistake (where he had to pull out Greninja), but if you go back and watch him, you'll notice him playing more aggressive, hence why I think he loses at the ditto.

I haven't seen the Zack v Tyroy set, nor do I know if there is a VOD of it anywhere, so if there is, could somebody link me to it? I'd be interested in breaking it down.

 

[R3D3MON]

do you think children would play a game that lets you get away with 0-deathing an opponent just for making one mistake?

That's why S4 is for whiners and complaining babies.

 

[Nemesis561]

That's why S4 is for whiners and complaining babies.

Can you actually contribute and stop posting as if you’re in Twitch chat?

 

[Rizen]

What's scary about this is that as long as one of these is Witch Time'd, the other Bayonetta will get slowed down. It doesn't matter how far away from the other Bayonetta she is, she will get slowed down. I'm not sure what the inner workings of the bullet art extensions are, but IIRC it's because while they aren't extending Bayonetta's hurtboxes, they're still attached to them or something, so regardless of how far away she is, she'll still get slowed down.

This applies to Zairs too, as they're considered to not be projectiles but rather disjoints. It's dangerous to Zair zone Bayo but safe against other counters due to the distance and low damage. *grumbles*