Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ARGHETH]

This is for one local, guys.

 

[Yonder]

https://twitter.com/HikotsiaIII/status/899927297339387904

Its finally happening at last, Lets hope other regions catch up...

Judging by comments, double Clouds/Cloud in general is banned from double formats. I am receptive to testing this though because he majorly overcentralizes the doubles meta as proven by a landslide of results, unlike Bayo in singles. Let's see how it works at this local.

 

[|RK|]

Can we actually look deeper into the data for these things we keep talking about?

Someone already asked - with no answer - who is winning the majority of these doubles tournaments?

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://twitter.com/HikotsiaIII/status/899927297339387904

Its finally happening at last, Lets hope other regions catch up...

What does it say? I don't understand that language...

 

[ARGHETH]

Can we actually look deeper into the data for these things we keep talking about?

Someone already asked - with no answer - who is winning the majority of these doubles tournaments?

Does this count?

 

[Nah]

What does it say? I don't understand that language...

I don't really speak the language (pretty sure it's Spanish though?) either, but I'm like 99.9% certain it's saying that some local somewhere has decided to ban double Cloud teams in their doubles tournaments.

Funbot probably hopes that this'll snowball and that double Cloud will someday be globally banned

 

[ARISTOS]

Does this count?

I think he/she wants a comparative analysis between Melee and Smash 4.

If I have time I'll go through it but my gut tells me in Melee it's just top players doing well with their mains versus in Smash 4 where you see several top players switching to Cloud to compete

 

[verbatim]

I don't really speak the language (pretty sure it's Spanish though?) either, but I'm like 99.9% certain it's saying that some local somewhere has decided to ban double Cloud teams in their doubles tournaments.

Funbot probably hopes that this'll snowball and that double Cloud will someday be globally banned

The last time a spanish local banned a character we got 1.1.6 because of it and the press coverage it got.


also, fixed

If I have time I'll go through it but my gut tells me in Melee it's just top players doing well with FOX versus in Smash 4 where you see several top players switching to Cloud to compete

 

[R3D3MON]

also, fixed

You just broke it.


EDIT: Actual Fix

If I have time I'll go through it but my gut tells me in Melee it's just top players doing well with TOP TIERS versus in Smash 4 where you see several top players switching to TOP TIERS to compete

 

[Funbot28]

It's too late for patches at this point. I highly doubt Ninerendo has any interesting in balancing the game at this point given the amount of time since 1.16. And yes I hope a bam of double Cloud happens at some point globally. The metagame has gotten really stale and this is proven with low viewership and sign ups

 

[ぱみゅ]

What does it say? I don't understand that language...

"CLOUD IS BANNED FROM DOUBLES WII U
After a decision taken by voting of the people in charge of the tournament, it has been decided by majority (4 out of 6 votes) to forbid the usage of this character for Doubles.
This ban is temporal, only for Force Paw Saturdays #1 and is yet to be seen if it's kept for the rest.

Momentarily, personally I do not think it's bad to experiment with the format.
Singles is kept as it is, obviously."

That's a more literal translation.

I think a local isn't a large enough test for a definite result and prove it is better or worse, but if it works for them we can't really force them to the more standard format, even if it makes more sense (or not).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah no disrespect to that scene but a ban at one local in a lesser known region isn't going to do much to influence the grander scheme of things. Locals all over the world play to different rules than just the standard recommended rule set. If you want to get doubles Cloud ban/limit talked about and looked at more you need it implemented at something with more influence like a MSM or Xanadu

 

[Lord Dio]

Is that the same region that had a short lvied bayo ban?

 

[TDK]

Is that the same region that had a short lvied bayo ban?

Yup.

Also, Taternator (Best Jr currently?) made a matchup chart for Bowser Jr.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm curious as to how good he thinks this character is.

 

[Nemesis561]

Wow, as a Bowser jr main myself I heavily disagree with a lot of this matchup chart. I hope to discuss it with him when I can. I would write a long post dissecting it but honestly I don't think anyone really cares about this character in the current meta which sucks but is understandable. If I'm wrong and someone has any question just ask.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Does this count?

I think he wants to know which players are winning the majority of these tournaments with Cloud, not the amount of which that Cloud wins.

EDIT:

Yup.

Also, Taternator (Best Jr currently?) made a matchup chart for Bowser Jr.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm curious as to how good he thinks this character is.

Yeaaaaah, no. I don't buy this. Especially Falcon losing to Jr.

Falcon bodies Jr. and throws a huge wrench in Jr.'s approaches with his ridiculous jab alone.

Jr. may be able to juggle Falcon a bit once he gets a juggle situation set up but Falcon juggle Jr. way harder and actually has reliable ways to put characters in those situations.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

As for Cloud being banned in doubles this does not sound like nees to me hearing that a region has done it. If I recall, there have been a few players on discord who have brought up in the past that doubles Cloud has been banned in the Netherlands.

 

[The-Technique]

Bowser Jr. going even with Bayonetta? That's quite optimistic.

 

[PK Bash]

Wow, as a Bowser jr main myself I heavily disagree with a lot of this matchup chart. I hope to discuss it with him when I can. I would write a long post dissecting it but honestly I don't think anyone really cares about this character in the current meta which sucks but is understandable. If I'm wrong and someone has any question just ask.

Just logged in to say I would actually love to see that post if you're still game.
I feel the entire point of Taternator's matchup chart is to encourage discussion and improve the general playerbase's understanding of this character. And I think you have a better chance here on Smashboards of insightful observations than Taternator has on Twitter.

If you don't want to do that original dissection post any more, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Ness matchup. As far as I'm concerned, Jr has nothing to make that matchup anything close to even, and I gotta be honest, Taternator's Twitter explanation was poor. Given the medium though, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I also want to know what you think too if that's cool.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Id like to see that as well, from my experience that MU is one of Ness' best. There really isn't a lot that Jr. has that threatens Ness or his gameplan. I'm also really skeptical of alot of those placings. (Even Bayo? Please)

Fun fact Jr is the only other character in the game where Ness' Dtilt-FSmash is reactable and true rather than near unreactable and true thanks to his extra long trip animation, its enough to make the kill confirm a legitimate option against him.

 

[Nemesis561]

Well the most glaring thing with Taternator's matchup chart at least in my opinion is . To me and most other players that matchup is, if not our worst, at least bottom 3-5. He completely shuts down Jr side B with pellets alone, making the matchup into sort of a zoning war where MM totally dominates. The only saving grace is that MM is susceptible to being harassed offstage which Jr is definitely equipped to do with our aerials and mechakoopa.

loses pretty hard to just about every zoning character in this game, so I would put characters like and even and as losing matchups.

I also disagree with beating and . Obviously Falco has a reflector which helps him here, but forgetting that, Jr cannot compete with him in close quarters combat, leaving Jr to try and play a mid range game without being able to heavily rely on mechakoopa. Again though, Jr does have the tools to really bother him offstage so he does have that going for him. As with , while he does struggle to kill Jr at times, Pika simply dominates neutral, with neutral B and quick attack being pretty annoying for Jr.However Jr is able to hit him out of quick attack pretty reliably if the Pika player is using it in a predictable pattern. And obviously gets edgeguarded hard by Pika. Theres also the possibility of being hit while outside of your kart and not being able to spawn another kart, and Pika has a few moves which will do this like jab and t jolt.

going even with is also something I disagree with obviously, although I haven't played it much at a higher level. I've played Child the Bayo from SFL but that was a while back and just one set. Common sense says loses of course but I would like to talk to Tater about it.

I would as slightly losing although that is just a minor nitpick.

As for something at least a bit more positive I do think that does beat and slightly, while their kill confirm windows are really big on (For example Jrs ding dong percent window is the widest of any character in the game, I believe it's almost a 40 % window !!), they are combo food for Jr and one side B hit at lower percents will confirm into giant percent. Again though just a minor nitpick.

As for , I do agree that it is a losing matchup for . I have a lot of exp in this matchup as I play a lot with the best Ness main in FL. To be honest I would just say in this case, Ness wins because he is just the better character. Ness just has better buttons it's about as simple as that, his edgeguard game with PK thunder is really annoying for Jr to deal with, and you have to be careful because if you get with the tail after you up B you will die. Ness has a good way in dealing with Mecha Koopa on the ground with his dash attack, it let's him pick it up while being safe because it's safe on shield vs Jr if spaced properly. Jr aerials do give Ness some trouble however so in this matchup Jr has to space himself with properly spaced Fair and Bair and make sure to stay on stage as much as possible. In my opinion loses solidly to but it's a very doable matchup

 

[ElectricBlade]

Well the most glaring thing with Taternator's matchup chart at least in my opinion is . To me and most other players that matchup is, if not our worst, at least bottom 3-5. He completely shuts down Jr side B with pellets alone, making the matchup into sort of a zoning war where MM totally dominates. The only saving grace is that MM is susceptible to being harassed offstage which Jr is definitely equipped to do with our aerials and mechakoopa.

loses pretty hard to just about every zoning character in this game, so I would put characters like and even and as losing matchups.

I also disagree with beating and . Obviously Falco has a reflector which helps him here, but forgetting that, Jr cannot compete with him in close quarters combat, leaving Jr to try and play a mid range game without being able to heavily rely on mechakoopa. Again though, Jr does have the tools to really bother him offstage so he does have that going for him. As with , while he does struggle to kill Jr at times, Pika simply dominates neutral, with neutral B and quick attack being pretty annoying for Jr.However Jr is able to hit him out of quick attack pretty reliably if the Pika player is using it in a predictable pattern. And obviously gets edgeguarded hard by Pika. Theres also the possibility of being hit while outside of your kart and not being able to spawn another kart, and Pika has a few moves which will do this like jab and t jolt.

going even with is also something I disagree with obviously, although I haven't played it much at a higher level. I've played Child the Bayo from SFL but that was a while back and just one set. Common sense says loses of course but I would like to talk to Tater about it.

I would as slightly losing although that is just a minor nitpick.

As for something at least a bit more positive I do think that does beat and slightly, while their kill confirm windows are really big on (For example Jrs ding dong percent window is the widest of any character in the game, I believe it's almost a 40 % window !!), they are combo food for Jr and one side B hit at lower percents will confirm into giant percent. Again though just a minor nitpick.

As for , I do agree that it is a losing matchup for . I have a lot of exp in this matchup as I play a lot with the best Ness main in FL. To be honest I would just say in this case, Ness wins because he is just the better character. Ness just has better buttons it's about as simple as that, his edgeguard game with PK thunder is really annoying for Jr to deal with, and you have to be careful because if you get with the tail after you up B you will die. Ness has a good way in dealing with Mecha Koopa on the ground with his dash attack, it let's him pick it up while being safe because it's safe on shield vs Jr if spaced properly. Jr aerials do give Ness some trouble however so in this matchup Jr has to space himself with properly spaced Fair and Bair and make sure to stay on stage as much as possible. In my opinion loses solidly to but it's a very doable matchup

If you don't mind. Could you go over the Cloud MU as well in away you did above? I don't know the MU all that well but I'm interested in understanding it.

 

[Nemesis561]

If you don't mind. Could you go over the Cloud MU as well in away you did above? I don't know the MU all that well but I'm interested in understanding it.

I'm actually a little more optimistic about that matchup than Tater is, There are some really good Cloud mains in South Florida so I do have quite a bit of experience. Cloud does not oppress Jr in neutral like other characters which give him so much trouble. Cloud is pretty susceptible to being juggled and Jrs good advantage state can give Cloud some trouble. Offstage, Jr can also have his way vs Cloud and make it hell for him to make it back. (Z drop Mecha koopa at ledge is really nice vs Cloud as he doesn't snap ledge)

However Cloud wins the matchup because he is Cloud (lol). Nair is super good in this matchup as it is good for stuffing Jrs approach. Jr is not the best at landing so Cloud can have his way with him with up airs and nairs in advantage state. And of course Cloud has the advantage when it comes to killing power vs Jr. That's not to say Jr can't kill, he definitely can but if he misses the window for his best kill set up (Side B to Up B hammer), then we need to land a stray hit (forward air, back air, f smash, up air, up smash) while Cloud has his immense killing power.

Personally I think Cloud wins solid, but it's doable for Jr and not one of his worst top tier matchups

 

[blackghost]

Is that the same region that had a short lvied bayo ban?

Old habbits die hard. It does tell you a lot about that scene tho.

 

[FullMoon]

It's really sad that until that MU chart got posted here I completely forgot Bowser Jr was even in the game.

 

[|RK|]

Does this count?

Ah, sorry - I meant player-wise. Who are these Clouds?

 

[TDK]

https://www.gofundme.com/Raito4GTX-TBH7

This is the GoFundMe to get Raito to GTX and The Big House 7. I hope he can make it out again, even if I can't donate to it.

 

[|RK|]

I'm just glad top players are starting to say the things I've believed for a while.

Just bc some chars dont get results at majors doesn't always mean that they're bad. Didnt the Japanese DH's and T already teach u guys this?

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) August 24, 2017

This plus ESAM's tirade about Sheik "if she plays perfect"? Kreygasm

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm just glad top players are starting to say the things I've believed for a while.

Just bc some chars dont get results at majors doesn't always mean that they're bad. Didnt the Japanese DH's and T already teach u guys this?

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) August 24, 2017

This plus ESAM's tirade about Sheik "if she plays perfect"? Kreygasm

T and the Japanese DH were noted to be good way before they came over to the US. We knew this cause because they has done well at Umeburas and other big Japanese tournaments previously

 

[Game7a1]

https://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-14-shine-and-dubai-dojo.449736/
Weekend thread is up. While most of the talent is at Shine, a good bit of Japan (Ranai, Hikaru, Ron, KEN, T, Earth, Shuton etc.) will be at Dubai Dojo.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yup.

Also, Taternator (Best Jr currently?) made a matchup chart for Bowser Jr.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I'm curious as to how good he thinks this character is.

I already saw everyone else's arguments as for why this MU chart is wrong but even his zard MU is wrong. It's even at best for jr. Jr has no issues with using mechakoopa and kart dash to run all over the stage making zard have to chase him but other than that, that's all jr can do. If he goes offstage at all zard's flamethrower and dair can edgeguard jr all day long and heaven help jr if he mistimes his upb special because zard has him there. The good thing for jr is mechakoopas and cannon blast can beat flamethrower so he has ground options that other lower tiers don't have, plus he actually has an answer to zards flamethrower which puts the MU as being more even but +1? Meh, no.

 

[TurboLink]

Old habbits die hard. It does tell you a lot about that scene tho.

Let them play by their own rules. What's up with your ****ty judgmental attitude?

 

[R3D3MON]

Let them play by their own rules. What's up with your ****ty judgmental attitude?

Edgy af

 

[Nu~]

Pac-Man steamrolls BJr. Not sure how he thinks he wins that one

But im not surprised considering the lack of mainstream pacman knowledge

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Test banning is fine, but I do think this is this very knee jerky.

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel that basing opinions on solely results can be just as dangerous as basing all of your opinions on theory-craft. If you don't understand all the nuances and context behind the tournament numbers, you can still derive a poor opinion from the data.

 

[Cloud20]

I"m glad that Lucina is higher than Toon Link.


I"m glad charizard is still higher than Ganondorf.


I"m not editing this post again.

 

[Cloud20]

Thanks sakurai

 

[Bowserboy3]

Pac-Man steamrolls BJr

Okay, let's be real... Does Pac-Man, with his innate slow paced and zoning playstyle, realistically "steamroll" anyone?

I think not lol.

 

[Kofu]

Okay, let's be real... Does Pac-Man, with his innate slow paced and zoning playstyle, realistically "steamroll" anyone?

I think not lol.

I don't see how a zoning character can't steamroll another as long as they are dominant enough in a matchup.

Pac-Man's neutral is inherently an anti-approach one. Jr.'s biggest issue is approaching, so I could see it being nicely in Pac-Man's favor. Trampoline alone could give him headaches (I believe it forces him out of Clown Kart Dash), to say nothing of Pac-Man's better normals and projectile game.

I could be completely off the mark here but that's my take on it.