Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Is it some kind of self-imposed rule or an official one?

If it's the former, then why care at all?

It's in part because when we post results, we're contributing to Das Koopa's ranking system.

That and a character that didn't take any games is effectively irrelevant.

 

[TDK]

Is it some kind of self-imposed rule or an official one?

If it's the former, then why care at all?

This is the format Das Koopa follows, which is where all the results posted here go into.

And otherwise we're essentially rewarding a character for failure, which is a big no.

EDIT: 'd

 

[Skeeter Mania]

This is the format Das Koopa follows, which is where all the results posted here go into.

And otherwise we're essentially rewarding a character for failure, which is a big no.

EDIT: 'd

Then what's stopping us from listing the used character but also listing that it didn't win a game?

 

[TDK]

Then what's stopping us from listing the used character but also listing that it didn't win a game?

That's annoying to go through and also convoluted. Imagine this:

2nd: Randommain1001 , but Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, DK, Diddy, Bowser Jr and Wario didn't take games

See the problem?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That's annoying to go through and also convoluted. Imagine this:

2nd: Randommain1001 , but Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, DK, Diddy, Bowser Jr and Wario didn't take games

See the problem?

What if the character is a natural secondary of a player's, like the aforementioned Nairo's Bowser? One could make an exception for that.

 

[The-Technique]

The smiley face oml @TweekSsb is a savage pic.twitter.com/2WDe7sKoyk

— Tylor (@theSirToasty) August 27, 2017

when you're the 2nd best player in the world and a mid tier is your kryptonite

 

[|RK|]

When are we going to stop calling Bowser/DK mid tiers? I'm sure I've asked before, but...

 

[TDK]

What if the character is a natural secondary of a player's, like the aforementioned Nairo's Bowser? One could make an exception for that.

But why should a character be noted for making no impact on the tournament? I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time grasping this.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What are your guys thoughts on multiple players using Diddy yesterday? I thought that would of been a hot topic and I'm suprised it has not been brought up yet.

 

[Yonder]

When are we going to stop calling Bowser/DK mid tiers? I'm sure I've asked before, but...

I think Illusion said it best with Corrin and high tier. Just replace Corrin with Bowser/DK for this example.

Anyone who says Corrin isn't high tier is not at all qualified to talk about the character. At that point, it becomes clear that one has been blatantly ignoring his accomplishments for the past year.

Corrin/Bowser/DK have definitely proven this status as high tiers in the current meta. What other supposed mid tiers have taken off games against many top players in competitive play? (Bowser: Tweek, Zero, MKLeo, etc. DK: Salem, Tweek, etc) these results are still going into 2017, ding dong and Koopa hasn't gotten any less effective. And Corrin has been placing high by the likes of Cosmos, Frozen, and MKLeo all over. Idk where they are in high tier, but they are in it.

 

[Laken64]

Shine 2017 (659 Entrants) (New England)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Nairo
4th: Salem
5th: MKLeo
5th: Ally
7th: Komorikiri
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: Light
9th: Mistake
9th: Cosmos
9th: WaDi
13th: VoiD
13th: ESAM
13th: Marss
13th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Locus
17th: MVD
17th: MattyG
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Tyroy
17th: JK
17th: Zinoto
17th: ANTi
25th: IceArrow
25th: Mr. E
25th: Venom
25th: Pink Fresh
25th: Shoyo James
25th: MJG
25th: Ralphie
25th: Sonix

Ally took a game off Leo with I believe.

 

[PK Bash]

This is the last time I will make this sort of post in this thread, I am getting very tired.

Why should I or anyone else agree that Corrin is a top 20 character? Someone adequately back up this claim, or else stop making it. You can't just say that her theory and results totally indicate that she is as if it's supposed to be obvious to everyone like say Bayo being top 3 or Jiggs being ***.

I want to defend this post because unfortunately, everyone seems to have missed the very good point being made.

You can't make some blanket statements and just expect everyone to agree with it.

We have done this song and dance so many times with so many different characters and the results are always similar. "Common knowledge" about the viability of who is or isn't flavour of the month eventually gets debunked, and then we all start looking very stupid because we clearly failed to be thorough in our analysis.

It happens pretty often.

Nothing is set in stone. What is common accepted knowledge now may not be this time next month. Maybe players have an off-season or stop attending and their character's results come right down. Maybe the ruleset changes, which has a knock-on effect on character viability. Maybe counterplay develops in reaction to the flavour of the month. People adapt their strategies and suddenly X character isn't so good anymore.
Diddy is the poster boy of this. Not that long ago, the vast majority just accepted he was top five. But then a few players dropped some bombshells and now people are arguing about whether he actually is.
The same sort of thing happened with Ryu. And oh how we love to mock those who once said Ryu is the best in the game, but real talk, most of you believed he was top five at one point.
The same debate is happening with Sheik right now.
The same debate will probably happen with Cloud down the line.
Something similar has happened with lesser characters like Greninja, Toon Link and Meta Knight. We all thought they were better than they actually were because we didn't look closely enough.

Why couldn't something like this happen with Corrin as well?

Tear me apart if you want but he's making a very good point, if you all just drop your egos for a second and look at what it is he's saying.

 

[The-Technique]

When are we going to stop calling Bowser/DK mid tiers? I'm sure I've asked before, but...

I called him "mid tier" not "mid tier who will never be perceived as high tier, ever", im well aware of his results. also i was partly memeing since people tend to regard the cloud matchup as favorable versus DK/Bowser

IMO I think Leo just has a problem in general versus grappler heavy characters, similar to the problem he used to have with Ryu in the past. Tweek is much less daunted by comparison and its a 50/50 whether or not the Bowser pick works, and it didn't work out for Nairo this time around.

 

[Frihetsanka]

When are we going to stop calling Bowser/DK mid tiers? I'm sure I've asked before, but...

When DK mains start posting more positive MU charts. Here's the MU chart from the DK community:

I personally think they're being a bit too pessimistic, but my point still stands: Donkey Kong seems to have too many bad MUs (like -2 MUs even) to be a high tier. Also, there are so many other good candidates for high tier. Is Donkey Kong better than Mega Man? Toon Link? Peach? Greninja? Lucario? Villager? He's a great counter-pick character/secondary, but as a main he's somewhat flawed. This makes me think that he's high-mid rather than high tier (it also depends on where you draw the line between high tier and high-mid, I suppose).

I'm not saying Donkey Kong definitely isn't high tier. He might be. But I think he might also be high-mid tier. His flaws are pretty significant, after all. We also shouldn't forget that high-mid tiers can get results: Pikachu has quite a few pretty good results in Melee, despite being a high-mid tier.

 

[PJB]

What are your guys thoughts on multiple players using Diddy yesterday? I thought that would of been a hot topic and I'm suprised it has not been brought up yet.

I thought this was very interesting as well. In particular this is the first time I can remember that we've seen Diddy used as a successful counterpick character. Also, Nairo's Diddy was so different from zero or zinoto. He really is just so adept at getting grabs with all of his characters (maybe due to difficulty of getting grabs with ZSS?). Didn't go for ledge traps to the extent that zero does, but maybe that's just a product of fighting bayo

 

[blackghost]

When are we going to stop calling Bowser/DK mid tiers? I'm sure I've asked before, but...

Have they proven to be anything but a counterpick yet? Counter pick to both players and characters yes but extremely good on thier own... still up for debate. I genuinely have no idea but I'm not giving

When DK mains start posting more positive MU charts. Here's the MU chart from the DK community:

I personally think they're being a bit too pessimistic, but my point still stands: Donkey Kong seems to have too many bad MUs (like -2 MUs even) to be a high tier. Also, there are so many other good candidates for high tier. Is Donkey Kong better than Mega Man? Toon Link? Peach? Greninja? Lucario? Villager? He's a great counter-pick character/secondary, but as a main he's somewhat flawed. This makes me think that he's high-mid rather than high tier (it also depends on where you draw the line between high tier and high-mid, I suppose).

I'm not saying Donkey Kong definitely isn't high tier. He might be. But I think he might also be high-mid tier. His flaws are pretty significant, after all. We also shouldn't forget that high-mid tiers can get results: Pikachu has quite a few pretty good results in Melee, despite being a high-mid tier.

If you remove all the characters not meta relevant that my chart us extremely weak and not a high tier at all.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Have they proven to be anything but a counterpick yet?

Hikaru has some results with Donkey Kong, but not better than Axe's results with Pikachu Melee.

If you remove all the characters not meta relevant that my chart us extremely weak and not a high tier at all.

To be fair, according to that MU chart Donkey Kong does go even with a bunch of top tier and high tier characters, and if the opponent doesn't know the MU that well "even" might turn into "slight advantage" in practice. Of course, eventually people might learn the MU, and then maybe DK will be less valuable as a counter-pick character? Larry Lurr doesn't seem to use his Donkey Kong that much anymore, and Nairo's Bowser usage seems to have gone down (and he seems to lose more often with Bowser now than before).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

That DK MU chart doesn't look that pessimistic to me, I think it's believable that DK has a lot of even MUs with some meta relevant characters like Sheik, Mario Marthcina M2 and speciality characters like Ness (It's probably Ness favor) Falcon or Luigi. A even MU isn't a bad thing it's just means the best player that set should win. I think it's also believable that given DK's design that zoning characters and characters that can oppress him with speed and hitboxes would beat him. I don't imagine DK ever landing against Rosalina or catching TL or Sonic, I can see DK having serious problems getting past MM's lemons and getting out of Fox and ZSS vertical vortex.

I think this is the reason people are hesitant to call DK a high tier despite the great success he has seen, he has a few too many really bad matchups and doesn't beat anyone super common, the best character he beats is Lucario and while that's good, he's not a common character.

 

[Lord Dio]

Have they proven to be anything but a counterpick yet? Counter pick to both players and characters yes but extremely good on thier own... still up for debate. I genuinely have no idea but I'm not giving


If you remove all the characters not meta relevant that my chart us extremely weak and not a high tier at all.

Not extremely good, but decently good on their own. Deluxemenu beat Zinoto and making a run at iirc LTC 5, Lord Mix's accomplishments, HIKARU's work.
Imo, the two are high tier CPs, but top of mid when they're not.
Which seems kinda confusing now that I think about it.

 

[blackghost]

Dk and bowser are two of the only characters that can look helpless and dominant in the same week.

 

[|RK|]

Being a counterpick for some of the most common and powerful characters in the game (and losing to some of the least common) is a good trait to have.

And we've seen DK used to great success against even the -2 MUs on that list

 

[TDK]

DK and Bowser are not Solo viable, but having them in your pocket is the future because matchups matter a lot less with them.

 

[|RK|]

DK and Bowser are not Solo viable, but having them in your pocket is the future because matchups matter a lot less with them.

They are - IMO - the replacements for pre-patch Meta Knight. He was the ultimate counterpick character, regardless of his individual MUs.

 

[Das Koopa]

Shine 2017 (August 25th-27th) (New England) (659 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

TSM | ZeRo
2nd:

P1 | Tweek ,
3rd:

NRG | Nairo ,
4th:

MVG | Salem
5th:

C9 | Ally ,
5th:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
7th:

2GG | komorikiri
7th:

MSF | Larry Lurr
9th:

EMG | Mistake
9th:

Cosmos
9th:

EMP | WaDi
9th:

Light
13th:

CLG | VoiD
13th:

PG | ESAM ,
13th:

Marss ,
13th:

Dark Wizzy
17th:

Locus
17th:

PG | MVD
17th:

MattyG
17th:

P1 | Captain Zack ,
17th:

Yatta | JK
17th:

tyroy ,
17th:

EG | Zinoto
17th:

IMT | ANTi ,
25th:

IceArrow
25th:

RvL | Mr. E ,
25th:

MJG
25th:

SSMBTL | Venom
25th:

Ho3K | Ralphie
25th:

eesports | Sonix
25th:

Shoyo James
25th:

VGBC | Pink Fresh
33rd:

LingLing
33rd:

GT | Vivid ,
33rd:

ECG | The Great Gonzales
33rd:

TSB | Chaos
33rd:

aperture
33rd:

Tri | Zoan
33rd:

Kuma
33rd:

Craftis
33rd:

LGS EMG Bkr | Blacktwins13 ,
33rd:

TSG | Biddy
33rd:

Fwed
33rd:

Pugwest
33rd:

HBA | Wraith
33rd:

EZG | Remzi
33rd:

Hide
33rd:

DarkAura
49th:

WtF | Trevonte
49th:

HBA | Riz
49th:

Allest | Axiom XL
49th:

PL | Omega Tyrant
49th:

Ducky
49th:

Raffi-X
49th:

Poyo
49th:

Edwin
49th:

Xion
49th:

Hero
49th:

SilentDoom
49th:

FOX MVG | Mew2King
49th:

Cilvanis
49th:

InC | Koolaid
49th:

Ramzy
49th:

Ksev

Spoiler: Dubai Dojo 2 (August 25th-26th) (United Arab Emirates) (101 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: KEN
2nd: 9B
3rd: T
4th: Edge
5th: HIKARU
5th: Earth ,
7th: Ranai
7th: Ron ,

Spoiler: DAT Blastzone 21 (August 26th) (United Kingdom) (91 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Jack Hunter
2nd: Plastic Poptart ,
3rd: Streakz
4th: Peligod
5th: BWC ,
5th: SevereCalamari
7th: Matsu
7th: Luigimitsu ,

Spoiler: Just Roll With It 8 (August 26th) (Southeast) (84 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Dandy Penguin
2nd: Donquavious ,
3rd: Kresent ,
4th: YoYoGuy
5th: DEEPBLUE
5th: Ak8s Phantasmagloria ,
7th: Moser
7th: Musk Ox

Spoiler: Toxicity 2 (August 26th) (British Columbia) (59 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Big D
2nd: Captain L ,
3rd: Zak ,
4th: Len

Spoiler: Nemiex Monthly 3 (August 26th) (Italy) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Meerko
2nd: Chimera ,
3rd: TunaLink ,
4th: TylerDX

Spoiler: Gainesville Stock Exchange (August 26th) (Florida) (51 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Koleslaw ,
2nd: Wonderbread ,
3rd: Osprey
4th: KeJovan

Spoiler: LTD x Beefy Smash Doods (August 26th) (Southeast) (40 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: VyQ ,
2nd: Kresent ,
3rd: DEEPBLUE ,
4th: Tony Guava

Spoiler: We Tech Those 11 (August 27th) (Southeast) (31 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Wrath
2nd: Harlock
3rd: Kamikaze
4th: MarioKid

Spoiler: Super SmashNest v18 (August 26th) (Pacific Northwest) (65 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: SilentRain ,
2nd: Biggymouth
3rd: Mace
4th: Braixen ,

Spoiler: Soda Smash II (August 26th) (Germany) (49 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Euk
2nd: Paisen
3rd: BluB
4th: MukA^

Spoiler: Updated Character Results

Bayonetta: 751.5
Diddy Kong: 731.5
Cloud: 636.5
Sheik: 481.5
Mario: 427
Sonic: 410
Fox: 407.5
Zero Suit Samus: 338.5
Rosalina & Luma: 277.5
Ryu: 249.5
Mewtwo: 228
Corrin: 194.5
Mega Man: 162
Marth: 153
Pikachu: 151
Meta Knight: 139.5
Captain Falcon: 139
Donkey Kong: 138.5
Peach: 133.5
Greninja: 121
Ness: 118
Bowser: 110.5
Luigi: 106.5
Villager: 100.5
Toon Link: 84.5
Lucina: 84
R.O.B.: 79
Olimar: 73.5
Lucas: 70.5
Samus: 66
Yoshi: 65.5
Duck Hunt: 65
Lucario: 63.5
Little Mac: 52.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 43.5
Roy: 43.5
Ike: 42.5
Wario: 40
Pac-Man: 42
Charizard: 37
Robin: 34.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 30.5
Link: 26.5
Pit: 23.5
Shulk: 22
Palutena: 18
King Dedede: 14
Falco: 12
Ganondorf: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Kirby: 7
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 3
Dark Pit: 2

 

[|RK|]

Funny thing - Locus made a joke tweet yesterday about how in 2020, all the Brawl vets would have switched to Diddy and all the newcomers would play Bayonetta.

That falls perfectly in line with my post from the other day - the Brawl vets and the newcomers approach the game very differently, placing value on different attributes. Amazing neutral? Or Sm4sh factor personified?

 

[my_T]

I would like to point out a difference that the Corrin nay sayers seem to be overlooking. Corrin has gained a lot of good results off of solo runs where as the results that DK/Bowsers have gained have been mostly through secondary counter pick usage. It would be nice if people wouldn't overlook such an important detail.

Oh and Corrin, unlike DK/Bowser, actually has a solid MU chart. DK/Bowser on the other hand live and die by bracket luck.

and haven't numerous posters in here including myself pointed out many if not all of Corrins strengths and weaknesses? She's pretty damn solid. She loses to a chunk of the top tiers as do most characters. Outside of top tier she also loses to Falcon and probably Meta Knight as well. DK, Bowser, and Ryu can make her sweat a little but aren't losing MU's. What other characters in the roster can boast a winning MU against Corrin? I can't think of any

 

[Frihetsanka]

Let's look at top 15 based on results:

1. Bayonetta: 751.5
2. Diddy Kong: 731.5
3. Cloud: 636.5
4. Sheik: 481.5
5. Mario: 427
6. Sonic: 410
7. Fox: 407.5
8. Zero Suit Samus: 338.5
9. Rosalina & Luma: 277.5
10. Ryu: 249.5
11. Mewtwo: 228
12. Corrin: 194.5
13. Mega Man: 162
14. Marth: 153
15. Pikachu: 151

Lucina has 84 points, so if you combine Marth and Lucina they get 237 points and thus 11th.

Corrin () is at #12 or #13 based on results. Her MU chart is pretty good, with no losses worse than 45:55 (except maybe Sheik, but even then Cosmos has almost beaten VoiD several times), and she might potentially win against Bayonetta (Ryuga claims that she does) and Mario (many people believe that she either beats Mario or goes even with Mario). She might also potentially beat Rosalina & Luma (or it's even). She beats or goes even with every mid tier and high tier and beats every low tier. How is this not a top 20 character?

 

[Heracr055]

I'm not too knowledgeable about Corrin besides knowing she's a pain for Ryu to face. If it's true that Corrin beats Bayo and goes even with Rosaluma, I think I'll start using her. Sonic's doable for Ryu if you play with a patient cornering game, so the Trela/Cosmos duo, Ryu and Corrin, could go places IMO(for main & secondary purposrs, not a doubles pair). Wonder how it'd fare vs Diddy tho

 

[blackghost]

Corrin beats bayo based on what? I'm curious.

 

[ARGHETH]

Corrin beats bayo based on what? I'm curious.

Results-wise, at least, Corrin's been doing well lately.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrin beats bayo based on what? I'm curious.

Note that I'm not taking a stand right now, but here's the argument for Corrin beating Bayonetta: Results and theory. Corrins (like Cosmos and MkLeo) have been doing really well against Bayonettas recently. Furthermore, some Corrins, like Ryuga, argue that Bayonetta loses. Here are some of Ryuga's arguments:

Bayonetta struggles to use Witch Time in the MU (if she tries to Witch Time she'll get bitten and die at 65%), and Corrin consistently wins neutral against Bayonetta. Furthermore, Corrin can avoid getting gimped by Bayonetta, and can kill with upair around 110%. Bayonetta, meanwhile, struggles to get a kill until around 130%.

This, Ryuga believes, adds up to Corrin winning the MU.

If Corrin ends up being Bayonettas worst MU then we might end up seeing quite a few more Corrin secondaries in the future. That would be fun.

 

[Jalil]

How does megaman have such a consistently high character score? Where are these results coming from?

 

[Tizio Random]

Just wanting to give my two cents on the Corrin-Rosa match up while I'm here instead of lurking as I usually do. From my experience it is a pretty even mu.

First of all, Corrin has some of the best tools to deal with Luma: side b instakills him if he/she gets the kick or the tipper hitbox from like 1/3 of the stage distance from the edge and (double) fair > bair is also a KO. On the other hand, Rosa has enough tools and mobility to punish Corrin's commitment and still play neutral safely even without Luma.
Still, I can see the match-up evolving slightly in Corrin's favor if some discoveries in his/her metagame are discovered since it's already one of the two match-ups that I consider even for Rosa that give substantial trouble (the other being ZSS).

 

[Laken64]

and she might potentially win against Bayonetta (Ryuga claims that she does)

I would take Ryuga's word with a grain of salt there, he has some pretty outlandish opinions (cloud being Corrin's worst mu when sheik is there)

Outside of top tier she also loses to Falcon and probably Meta Knight as well. DK, Bowser, and Ryu can make her sweat a little but aren't losing MU's. What other characters in the roster can boast a winning MU against Corrin? I can't think of any

Here is what Frozen thinks Corrin's mus are

 

[TDK]

https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggc-west-side-saga/shop/2ggift-shop-15

Lots of people for West Side saga could attend, and all of them would be awesome.

- Team Japan: KEN , Kirihara , Tsu- , Shuton , and T (!!)
- Luhtie and SS (Package deal)
- WAR
- Konga
- "Team NorCal", "Team Vegas", and "Team Arizona"; donating to these will give them money to carpool players.

I like that they changed up who team japan was this time. And T could come back! Yes!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I want to defend this post because unfortunately, everyone seems to have missed the very good point being made.

You can't make some blanket statements and just expect everyone to agree with it.

We have done this song and dance so many times with so many different characters and the results are always similar. "Common knowledge" about the viability of who is or isn't flavour of the month eventually gets debunked, and then we all start looking very stupid because we clearly failed to be thorough in our analysis.

It happens pretty often.

Nothing is set in stone. What is common accepted knowledge now may not be this time next month. Maybe players have an off-season or stop attending and their character's results come right down. Maybe the ruleset changes, which has a knock-on effect on character viability. Maybe counterplay develops in reaction to the flavour of the month. People adapt their strategies and suddenly X character isn't so good anymore.
Diddy is the poster boy of this. Not that long ago, the vast majority just accepted he was top five. But then a few players dropped some bombshells and now people are arguing about whether he actually is.
The same sort of thing happened with Ryu. And oh how we love to mock those who once said Ryu is the best in the game, but real talk, most of you believed he was top five at one point.
The same debate is happening with Sheik right now.
The same debate will probably happen with Cloud down the line.
Something similar has happened with lesser characters like Greninja, Toon Link and Meta Knight. We all thought they were better than they actually were because we didn't look closely enough.

Why couldn't something like this happen with Corrin as well?

Tear me apart if you want but he's making a very good point, if you all just drop your egos for a second and look at what it is he's saying.

Note that I'm not taking a stand right now, but here's the argument for Corrin beating Bayonetta: Results and theory. Corrins (like Cosmos and MkLeo) have been doing really well against Bayonettas recently. Furthermore, some Corrins, like Ryuga, argue that Bayonetta loses. Here are some of Ryuga's arguments:

Bayonetta struggles to use Witch Time in the MU (if she tries to Witch Time she'll get bitten and die at 65%), and Corrin consistently wins neutral against Bayonetta. Furthermore, Corrin can avoid getting gimped by Bayonetta, and can kill with upair around 110%. Bayonetta, meanwhile, struggles to get a kill until around 130%.

This, Ryuga believes, adds up to Corrin winning the MU.

If Corrin ends up being Bayonettas worst MU then we might end up seeing quite a few more Corrin secondaries in the future. That would be fun.

Rember when Elegant was beating several top Bayo's and suddenly people were all saying Luigi beat Bayo?, but those Bayo mains learned and adapted to the MU and started doing much better vs elegant?

Not saying the same thing could happen woth Corrin, but it's more than possible

 

[|RK|]

Rember when everyome was saying Luigi beast Bayo because Elegant was beating so many, but then Bayo mains learned and adapted to the MU and started doing much better vs elegant?

Not saying the same thing cpuld happen woth Corrin, but it's more than possible

I mean, what was the last thing Elegant was at? I only remember him losing to Salem.

 

[my_T]

Rember when Elegant was beating several top Bayo's and suddenly people were all saying Luigi beat Bayo?, but those Bayo mains learned and adapted to the MU and started doing much better vs elegant?

Not saying the same thing cpuld happen woth Corrin, but it's more than possible

As far as Luigi vs Bayo goes, Luigi isn't nearly oppressive enough in neutral to have winning or even MU vs Bayo. He spends the whole match running around and shielding most of the time waiting for the Bayo player to **** up. He can't just push buttons like he can in other MU's because of witch time. The only thing he has going for him in the Bayo MU is his grab game and edge guarding, but Bayo has the best recovery, is one of the best edge guarders, and is one of the best anti-grab characters in the game. Why anyone ever thought Luigi had some kind of advantage vs Bayo is somewhat of a mystery to me.

Ness has the same strengths and weaknesses in the Bayo MU as Luigi. Both, however, are only at a slight disadvantage against her.

Also, Corrin has a few strengths that Ness and Luigi simply do not have so I highly doubt her MU's will get any worse than what they are right now.

 

[Nah]

Y'all are missing the point. It's not about Bayo and Luigi.

The point is this: Why can't Corrin's success be attributed to people not understanding how to fight the character/MU inexperience? What is stopping her from dropping in public perception later on when years have passed, like with several other characters?

 

[Das Koopa]

How does megaman have such a consistently high character score? Where are these results coming from?

I'll look into this because I honestly have no idea, it'll be part of my end of phase/august post