Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Bowserboy3]

I don't see how a zoning character can't steamroll another as long as they are dominant enough in a matchup.

Pac-Man's neutral is inherently an anti-approach one. Jr.'s biggest issue is approaching, so I could see it being nicely in Pac-Man's favor. Trampoline alone could give him headaches (I believe it forces him out of Clown Kart Dash), to say nothing of Pac-Man's better normals and projectile game.

I could be completely off the mark here but that's my take on it.

Bowser Jr certainly doesn't really struggle to approach.

Clown Car Dash is pretty much a budget Spin Dash.

No, I am not joking. Try playing Sonic and using Spin Dash, then try playing Bowser Jr and using Clown Car Dash in the same situations. Sure, the timings of the moves and stuff in which to initiate combos and such are different, but think a second; they are both moves that speed you towards the opponent that forces the opponent to take an action, be it an offensive or defensive action. You can also bow out if you need to (just go past them).

I have seen enough Bowser Jr in person (the UK has a top ranked Bowser Jr player) to confidently come to the conclusion that he does not really struggle approaching, at least in most MU's that aren't like Sheik, or characters that can run away from him, like Sonic and maybe Fox.

How I see it, his main problem lies in the fact that once he's in the opponent's face, unless he's pressing advantage himself, he's relatively easy to take advantage of.

Anyway, Trampoline being out there is a good point, but it's easily jumped over with the jump function of the CCD.

Pac-Man could very well have an advantage over Bowser Jr, I'm not denying that.

But to me, "steamroll" is the wrong word to use. It's not really Sheik:Ganon for example is it?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Okay, let's be real... Does Pac-Man, with his innate slow paced and zoning playstyle, realistically "steamroll" anyone?

I think not lol.

Absolutely yes he does actually.

Little Mac vs Pac-Man is absolutely atrocious. I might even consider that the worst match up in this entire game with nearly 60 characters.

F*** Mac vs Pac-Man, lol.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

List of Lucas mains at Shine 2017.

Juice - Pool J4 - https://smash.gg/tournament/shine-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/108023/411301
Never - Pool I5 - https://smash.gg/tournament/shine-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/108023/411307
Mekos - Pool J1 - https://smash.gg/tournament/shine-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/108023/320554
WooperPSI - Pool I1 - https://smash.gg/tournament/shine-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/108023/411291

 

[Minordeth]

Soooo, Mr. R is throwing down a 500 money match challenge to any top Bayo to a first to 5 or 10. Looks like Lima, Salem, and maybe Tyroy are going in.

Blank is offering to help Mr. R prep. I haven't seen a whole lot of Blank vs Bayo, so this'll be interesting. As one of those people that thinks Sheik does rather well vs Bayo, I'm looking forward to seeing if Mr. R can stay away from the autopilot that gets him into trouble vs DK and Ryu.

As for the odds, if it's first to 10, Mr. R is probably the favorite vs anyone. His autopilot neutral is still better than anyone not named Dabuz or Zero, and first to 10 is a huge reduction in variance. Soooo...

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't think any Bayo would be capable of beating Mr. R in a ft10. If they know what's good for them they'd go for the lower game count with bans.

 

[Nu~]

I don't see how a zoning character can't steamroll another as long as they are dominant enough in a matchup.

Pac-Man's neutral is inherently an anti-approach one. Jr.'s biggest issue is approaching, so I could see it being nicely in Pac-Man's favor. Trampoline alone could give him headaches (I believe it forces him out of Clown Kart Dash), to say nothing of Pac-Man's better normals and projectile game.

I could be completely off the mark here but that's my take on it.

Its even more interesting than that because all of Pac's tools can switch over from heavy anti-approach to heavy approach-aiding.

From hydrants and fruits being able to cover your approach with huge hitboxes, to spot dodging through your own hydrant to allow the water to cover your approach,
...from water speed boosts, to dash attack's absurd safety,
...from Bonus Fruit cancelling halting your run...and so on.


I think its a bit of a common misconception that Pac-Man lends himself to a fully evasive playstyle. One that has halted his growth.

Peeps say, "pac ran away in his own game too", but they forget that Pac-Man switched between evading and pursuing at the drop of a hat lol.


Not gonna comment on the semantics of the implications of "steamroll" lol

 

[|RK|]

Salem probably has the best chance against Mr. R. But that's a given.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish o could find PAC man scary but outside of a few of the ones that place well he just always seems underwhelming to me.

His grab being his largest problem.

 

[Lord Dio]

I doubt Lima or tyroy could beat mr r in a first to 5. Mistake, Zack, or Salem, that's possible (though only salem's doing it, which makes me curious as to why the other two aren't)

 

[Nah]

Why exactly does Mr. R want to do a money match with the Bayos anyway though?

 

[Lord Dio]

Why exactly does Mr. R want to do a money match with the Bayos anyway though?

It's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
Everything burns.

 

[KakuCP9]

It's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
Everything burns.

Burning huh? I see the Salem witch trials have started anew.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't think any Bayo would be capable of beating Mr. R in a ft10. If they know what's good for them they'd go for the lower game count with bans.

I doubt Lima or tyroy could beat mr r in a first to 5. Mistake, Zack, or Salem, that's possible (though only salem's doing it, which makes me curious as to why the other two aren't)

Edit: I know you both know this, but for those reading:

I mean, this ain't Bof5, this is first to 5/Bof9 match. The less variance in a match, the more consistency and neutral matter and the less you can rely on mistakes. Salem has the patience to compete, but a first to five sounds like a tall order for Bayo vs Sheik. A first to 10 sounds like ritualistic punishment.

Why exactly does Mr. R want to do a money match with the Bayos anyway though?

Because the flavor of the week is #sheiksucks. Salem and Zack are both trolling/arguing with Mr R about Sheik's capabilities, and ESAM is out jokingly seriously saying that Pikachu is a better version of Sheik with a less developed meta.

I think Mr. R just got fed up with Twitter Wars.

 

[Lord Dio]

patience to compete, but a first to five sounds like a tall order for Bayo vs Sheik. A first to 10 sounds like ritualistic punishment.

tbh, a first to 10 against sheik sounds like ritualistic punishment for anyone.

 

[Yikarur]

The European Smash 4 backroom just released their own recommended ruleset

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...uropean_smash_4_backroom_just_released_their/

 

[Lord Dio]

The European Smash 4 backroom just released their own recommended ruleset

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...uropean_smash_4_backroom_just_released_their/

Props to Europe for freeing the miis.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Props to Europe for freeing the miis.

I had literally never even heard about that thing in 1.10. Props for doing so.

 

[Ilikebugs]

Websockets bot making. I hope this thread doesn't start talking about miss again. Sheik has better tools than cloud

 

[blackghost]

As far as I know thus is the first high stakes money match in this games history.
Lima and tyroy should lose to him by a large margin. Mistake it's hard to know his conversions are impressive but over a long set it'll be hard to maintain.
Money is on Salem if that's who accepts

 

[Finh009]

Dubai Dojo 2 (101 Entrants) (Dubai)

1st: KEN
2nd: SHI-G | 9B
3rd: T
4th: Edge
5th: Earth
5th: HIKARU
7th: Ron
7th Ranai

9th: Shuton

33rd: Fuwa


KEN was completely dominant this tournament. Only losing one game throughout the whole event.

This is also the best display from T since Civil War. He was far more patient and it really payed off, beating Shuton and HIKARU. I think it's about time T (as well as HIKARU and Shuton) make their return to the US.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Dubai Dojo 2 (101 Entrants) (Dubai)

1st: KEN
2nd: SHI-G | 9B
3rd: T
4th: Edge
5th: Earth
5th: HIKARU
7th: Ron
7th Ranai

9th: Shuton

33rd: Fuwa

Dubai is now a part of the Japanese Smash scene.

Which characters did Prof.molokhia, Madara, and Kei play? Bayonetta, Sheik, and Cloud, respectively? They also placed 9th.

 

[Yonder]

So...what do we think about banning 1-2 Clouds in doubles so far? mkLeo/Komo won with double Clouds at Shine 2017.

The problem I see is how you die at any window over 50-60 if you get up thrown into Cloud's finishing touch. That was used tensively to kill with no counterplay or windows unlike Hoo Hah/ding dong/showtime.

I think it is a good topic of discussion again, Cloud is very dominant in doubles, unlike Bayo in singles where she isn't head and heels over everyone else.

 

[The-Technique]

Edwin took Salem to game 3 last stock at Shine. Damn I love this game.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'd say do nothing about it unless players think doubles Cloud really sucks the fun out of doubles and/or tired of seeing the same team win and would like some variety to make things more interesting to them.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

JK2-1 ESAM in very, very close set

oops wrong board

 

[Nu~]

Edwin took Salem to game 3 last stock at Shine. Damn I love this game.

Edwin also two stocked him in the second game LOOL

?~The return of pacman~?

 

[The-Technique]

God it was infuriating how many d-airs Bayonetta's get away with while landing, I'm glad Ally kept his cool and punished Mistake's landing with f smash in game 5.

 

[blackghost]

the match of mistake and mars was amazing to watch not just as a spectator but as a student of the game.
mars came in with clear strategy and/or adivce to sdi and di down at all times. i just want to focus on that one spect of the match. Throughout the entire set mars was doing a very good job of not dying and making hard fo rmistake to easily conenct. By about game 3 mistake picked up on this but he only partially punished that. Let me explain.

mistake didn't want to let his opponent know that he had a set counter ready for that strategy he played his cards close to his chest he only punished mars sdi and di patterns hard twice. once he combed witch twist 2 into dair, spiking mars from an air combo. This isnt true and only works if you are sure your opponent will di down.

the second time he took advantage was he final kill of the set the abk > footstool> dair on the platform. as far as i know you cannot react to di down into a footstool you have to do it immediately predicting the di. This whole scenario demonstrates how the elite bayo players are thinking about the game. you dont have to punish your opponent at every possible moment and chance but knowing when to deliver a fatal punish.

Mars would have adapted if mistake killed him at the first chance he could for di and sdi down universally, but the game is 3 out of 5 so mistake just played the long game.

 

[HoSmash4]

Won my regional today (91 entrants)
https://smash.gg/tournament/dat-blastzone-21/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/143261
1. Jack Hunter
2. Plastic Poptart
3. Streakz
4. Peligod
5. SevereCalamari
5. BWC
7. Matsu
7. Luigimitsu

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's been almost 6 months now, and (Corrin) is starting to get some pretty good results. Cosmos was really close to top 8 a major, and MkLeo got some results with Corrin as well. She might not be #12, but do people here agree that she's at least top 20? Her MU chart, theory, and results indicate that she's at least top 20.

 

[Nah]

It's been almost 6 months now, and (Corrin) is starting to get some pretty good results. Cosmos was really close to top 8 a major, and MkLeo got some results with Corrin as well. She might not be #12, but do people here agree that she's at least top 20? Her MU chart, theory, and results indicate that she's at least top 20.

This is the last time I will make this sort of post in this thread, I am getting very tired.

Why should I or anyone else agree that Corrin is a top 20 character? Someone adequately back up this claim, or else stop making it. You can't just say that her theory and results totally indicate that she is as if it's supposed to be obvious to everyone like say Bayo being top 3 or Jiggs being ass.

 

[Illusion.]

Anyone who says Corrin isn't high tier is not at all qualified to talk about the character. At that point, it becomes clear that one has been blatantly ignoring his accomplishments for the past year.

 

[TDK]

Shine 2017 (659 Entrants) (New England)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Nairo
4th: Salem
5th: MKLeo
5th: Ally
7th: Komorikiri
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: Light
9th: Mistake
9th: Cosmos
9th: WaDi
13th: VoiD
13th: ESAM
13th: Marss
13th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Locus
17th: MVD
17th: MattyG
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Tyroy
17th: JK
17th: Zinoto
17th: ANTi
25th: IceArrow
25th: Mr. E
25th: Venom
25th: Pink Fresh
25th: Shoyo James
25th: MJG
25th: Ralphie
25th: Sonix

 

[Game7a1]

Shine 2017 (659 Entrants) (New England?)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: Nairo
4th: Salem
5th: MKLeo
5th: Ally
7th: Komorikiri
7th: Larry Lurr
9th: Light
9th: Mistake
9th: Cosmos
9th: WaDi
13th: VoiD
13th: ESAM
13th: Marss
13th: Dark Wizzy
17th: Locus
17th: MVD
17th: MattyG
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Tyroy
17th: JK
17th: Zinoto
17th: ANTi
25th: IceArrow
25th: Mr. E
25th: Venom
25th: Pink Fresh
25th: Shoyo James
25th: MJG
25th: Ralphie
25th: Sonix

Nairo used to win against Salem.
Ally won a game with Diddy against Leo.
Tweek went against MattyG.
Leo used against Captain Zack.
Zack took a game off Leo with .
And yes, Shine is in New England.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bowser should also be listed alongside Nairo.

 

[Jaguar360]

Bowser should also be listed alongside Nairo.

Nairo's Bowser didn't take any games. He used it once against Tweek and lost.

 

[Yonder]

Nairo used to win against Salem.
Ally won a game with Diddy against Leo.
Tweek went against MattyG.
Leo used against Captain Zack.
Zack took a game off Leo with .
And yes, Shine is in New England.

MKLeo used Marth also and Wadi ROB, but idk if his ROB had any use before Larry Lurr, it lost to Larry.

Ally had a pocket Diddy...and Nairo.

Cloud is ridiculous in doubles.


Big winners were definitely Diddy and Cloud by a landslide.
Small winners go to DK and Corrin.
Small loser: Bayo. Kind of got overshadowed by Cloud and Diddy here.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nairo's Bowser didn't take any games. He used it once against Tweek and lost.

And that matters, why? Shouldn't it still be added just for the fact that the character was used?

 

[TDK]

And that matters, why? Shouldn't it still be added just for the fact that the character was used?

No, the rules we've always operated under has to be a character takes one game or more in bracket. If a character doesn't take games, then they failed to move their player on in bracket and didn't accomplish anything.

Otherwise if I hypothetically made it to grands at a relevant tournament, I could go the three miis, lose three times, and then they'd get points, which isn't an accurate representation of how the tournament went.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

No, the rules we've always operated under has to be a character takes one game or more in bracket. If a character doesn't take games, then they failed to move their player on in bracket and didn't accomplish anything.

Otherwise if I hypothetically made it to grands at a relevant tournament, I could go the three miis, lose three times, and then they'd get points, which isn't an accurate representation of how the tournament went.

Is it some kind of self-imposed rule or an official one?

If it's the former, then why care at all?