Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[sleepy_Nex]

Shiek doesn't has Marthritis. She isn't on the decline. She has many good players that place consistently with her.

 

[R3D3MON]

Always wondered about that. In Melee when I see a Falcon murder a stock almost entirely from tech chasing I'm always reminded of Tekken-style oki and wonder why it doesn't work that way in S4.

Lack of movement options and Smash 4 players generally being worse at covering ground options than melee players.

Largely the input lag and the way you can no longer CC getup attacks

Lol no.
CC covers one or two options at most. Input lag is actually way less for S4 in general in relation to the control stick.

 

[R3D3MON]

Plz ignore, I double posted.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lack of movement options and Smash 4 players generally being worse at covering ground options than melee players.

Lol no.
CC covers one or two options at most. Input lag is actually way less for S4 in general in relation to the control stick.

Uh, yeah. Being able to CC getup attacks in Melee means you can effectively ignore that option while making tech in place and no tech a non issue. Everything else(no tech being the harder mixup) can be covered be JC grab and boost grab on reaction. Melee doesn't retain the 7-9 frames(or whatever it is) of input lag on most CRTs along with making roll FAF generally worse.

 

[ARISTOS]

Always wondered about that. In Melee when I see a Falcon murder a stock almost entirely from tech chasing I'm always reminded of Tekken-style oki and wonder why it doesn't work that way in S4.

Not being able to dash dance as freely as in Melee is a huge factor- dashing in S4 is a much larger commitment which means that if you dash and guess wrong neutral is reset. Being able to wavedash also gives players the option to cover. Also having horizontal momentum extended into jumps mean that you can attack wakeup options in much more varies ways.

 

[Minordeth]

It also helps that characters in Melee are monsters. I mean, Melee Fox is one thing, but Melee Falco and Melee Marth? Marth with his 4 frame Fair on a 4 frame jump squat with a ridiculous grab range? He'd be stupid even in Smash 4 physics.

 

[Yonder]

[SIZE=3.5]MSM 110 ft. MKLeo, Larry Lurr, Abadango, Komorikiri, Chanshu, takera, Venom, Dunkmaster Ragna, and more

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Chanshu
3rd: Dunkmaster Ragna
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: :^)
5th: Komorikiri
7th: Takera
7th: Mr. Con Con (Entered as "Logic the Rapper")

17th: Abadango



I'm not Das Koopa, but the general rule seems to be any character that is confirmed to have taken a game in tournament by a player gets on the results for that player.[/SIZE]

Abadango is on the decline faster than DDD fast falling his Nair. Really sad to see. I hope he makes a comeback. Bayonetta is doing him absolutely no favors. He's gone from the average 5th place to 17-30th avg. Aba...switch back or try something else!

The two Ryu players on the other hand who also places well at another bigger tournament...keep my eyes out for them. Maybe they'll give Locus a run for his money. If all 3 are pushing results maybe Ryu will rise a bit.

Good to see Concon kind of place in the top 8 again. Personally, he's a bit washed up (no offense!) But I always secretly root for him in bracket, considering he's the only other notable Luigi bar Elegant.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I honestly don't think it sucks that much (training mode, I mean).

 

[R3D3MON]

It also helps that characters in Melee are monsters. I mean, Melee Fox is one thing, but Melee Falco and Melee Marth? Marth with his 4 frame Fair on a 4 frame jump squat with a ridiculous grab range? He'd be stupid even in Smash 4 physics.

Melee Marth's frame data overall is actually not very good in terms of startup and endlag (even with L-cancel). Exluding fair, most of his other moves have considerable start-up and endlag, which is why he is a whiff-punisher character that loves controlling space.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Melee has hella set play.

Smash 4 is very "loose", compared to the others. Plus rage.

Okizeme is a Tekken term meaning the Art of keeping your opponent on the ground or keeping them in disadvantage once you have grounded them. Very hard to do in Smash games, but far more doable in past smash games compared to Smash 4. Mainly due to changes to hitstun, hitlag, and other physics as well as hit angles.

I've been doing studying on set plays myself and I was curious if you could give me a couple of examples from Melee (which is apparently more set play heavy) and maybe one or two from Smash 4. Like Cloud's for example.

 

[Krysco]

I honestly don't think it sucks that much (training mode, I mean).

Well there's the issues people have already brought up: the lack of rage and the inability to make the ai do specific things like di but there's also the fact that there's no stale move negation and the combo counter lies.

The only use Training mode really has when you're alone is testing combos with your character at 0% and with no di from the opponent. Things become a bit more bearable if you have a friend to help since they can di however you want them to but then there's still the issue of rage and staling which can only be tested by going into Smash mode. So not only is it bad but it's in certain ways worse than in previous Smash games since they lacked rage. Melee's is also pretty bad since you can't use the c-stick to attack.

 

[|RK|]

Shiek doesn't has Marthritis. She isn't on the decline. She has many good players that place consistently with her.

No one is saying her *results* are getting worse. But her theory is certainly getting there.

Lack of X-Factor is real. Even Diddy kinda has his dair.

 

[Nah]

I honestly don't think it sucks that much (training mode, I mean).

Why though?

 

[Locke 06]

Abadango is on the decline faster than DDD fast falling his Nair. Really sad to see. I hope he makes a comeback. Bayonetta is doing him absolutely no favors. He's gone from the average 5th place to 17-30th avg. Aba...switch back or try something else!

Switching characters takes time. Local Maxima blah blah.

A temporary drop in results is a blip in the grand scheme of getting better at the game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Uh, yeah. Being able to CC getup attacks in Melee means you can effectively ignore that option while making tech in place and no tech a non issue. Everything else(no tech being the harder mixup) can be covered be JC grab and boost grab on reaction. Melee doesn't retain the 7-9 frames(or whatever it is) of input lag on most CRTs along with making roll FAF generally worse.

We also can't discount the other thing about Melee tech-chases:the game's physics are just way heavier. Characters fall MUCH faster in that game and more moves have low launch. It's a very, very stark contrast. Combine that with space animals and you get a pretty techchase/oki heavy game by virtue of this.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Why though?

Given the common complaints brought up, many of them can be rectified by testing with a human.

 

[blackghost]

Switching characters takes time. Local Maxima blahno blah.

A temporary drop in results is a blip in the grand scheme of getting better at the game.

he got resuts with mewtwo way faster than this. his bayo is way too (lack of better term) fair. no combos like mistake, no neutral mastery like salem, no conversion ability like zack, and no blinding confidence like lima. Seriously what does aba's bayo do? it edge guards? thats every good bayo already.

 

[Nah]

Given the common complaints brought up, many of them can be rectified by testing with a human.

The fact that another human being is required in order to do anything meaningful when this is not the case for most other fighting games is exactly why Smash Bros Training mode is ass

 

[The-Technique]

Wow Salemopinions are worse than Esamopinions honestly.

Funny thing is that ESAM has joined in the conversation, agreeing with Salem.

After seeing more of their posts I'm kind of getting their point of view. No player is capable of playing perfectly all the time, which is why you'll see Sheiks winning neutral 90% of the time but lose the game after getting touched even once.

 

[BTVolta]

he got resuts with mewtwo way faster than this. his bayo is way too (lack of better term) fair. no combos like mistake, no neutral mastery like salem, no conversion ability like zack, and no blinding confidence like lima. Seriously what does aba's bayo do? it edge guards? thats every good bayo already.

The counterplay for or both characters at the time Aba picked them up was very different allowing Aba to get a boost in placements similar to early day Bayos when he used Mewtwo and having to play catch up when he picked up Bayo

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The fact that another human being is required in order to do anything meaningful when this is not the case for most other fighting games is exactly why Smash Bros Training mode is ***

I know I can't find another human being skilled in smash, and unless you make friends with a lot of people you're stuck playing on Final Destination. Not exactly good training there that's for sure.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The fact that another human being is required in order to do anything meaningful when this is not the case for most other fighting games is exactly why Smash Bros Training mode is ***

All right, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Nemesis561]

Abadango is on the decline faster than DDD fast falling his Nair. Really sad to see. I hope he makes a comeback. Bayonetta is doing him absolutely no favors. He's gone from the average 5th place to 17-30th avg. Aba...switch back or try something else!

The two Ryu players on the other hand who also places well at another bigger tournament...keep my eyes out for them. Maybe they'll give Locus a run for his money. If all 3 are pushing results maybe Ryu will rise a bit.

Good to see Concon kind of place in the top 8 again. Personally, he's a bit washed up (no offense!) But I always secretly root for him in bracket, considering he's the only other notable Luigi bar Elegant.

Abadango just picked up a brand new character not THAT long ago and is competing with top players who have been playing their character for years now. Just chill his results have taken a hit but in time he should climb the standings again. If he was just playing at tournaments I'm sure his results would be similar or slightly worst than what he is used to, but he's looking at the long term with

Zero has mentioned in his stream before when asked about picking up a new main for tournament, that it is really tough to do when Smash is year round and there's a huge tournament every other week it seems like. is a tough character to master with many small intricacies so it's to be expected that Abas results would decline as he's trying to do it on the fly essentially.

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry says he wants a character to CP for Ryu. Now he's training with Sonic.
Interesting.
Also, if we're still on Salem opinions, Salem thinks this is unrealistic:
https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/900045608194424833
...........
people actually make MU charts based off top player performances?

 

[The-Technique]

Larry says he wants a character to CP for Ryu. Now he's training with Sonic.
Interesting.
Also, if we're still on Salem opinions, Salem thinks this is unrealistic:
https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/900045608194424833
...........
people actually make MU charts based off top player performances?

If you look further in the discussion Salem elaborates on his reasoning a bit more, with Larry agreeing to an extent. I don't think Salem deserves the moniker of #LULopeenions

Surprising that Larry would try to pick up a Sonic for Ryu when he admitted that he just sucks at the matchup, not his character.

 

[TDK]

Larry says he wants a character to CP for Ryu. Now he's training with Sonic.
Interesting.
Also, if we're still on Salem opinions, Salem thinks this is unrealistic:
https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/900045608194424833
...........
people actually make MU charts based off top player performances?

you see "Oh Player X beats Character Y a few times, this matchup can't be that bad!" a lot.

 

[KakuCP9]

I definitely see where Salem is coming from because the top players are ones the who push the match ups and their characters to the limits and also give a somewhat concrete example on how characters fair against each other.

Like how Dabuz was the one who made people think Bayo loses the Roslina MU by showing putting into practice Rosa's netural game to exploit Bayo's weak approach game. Likewise, Salem showed Bayo's neutral is far from weak is even on par with monsters like Diddy and Shiek by using her movement options to the fullest. Another thing to note is that top players are play against each other so when one their competition is making some big waves, they are the ones who feel it the most since those match ups and characters become more relvant to them whether it's for finding a counterpick for a problematic MU or finding their character may have trouble with that top player's character. It is part of the reason why top players may have out there opinions from time to time (how Mr.R rates Greninja more highly than the US thanks to iStudying).

It's even applicable to mid/low level players since it's easier pull up a VOD and go "This character loses this MU since so and so beat whathisface" rather than crunch frame data and compare options. Though this influence can either delt productively by studying the MU more closely (i.e. how Dabuz does things) or by just making impulsive statements (i.e. early (or even current?) Zero and many mid level players.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Big ups for Larry for knowing he is bad vs Ryu. Fox has the tools to win that match consistently. He knows he likes to attack and dies for it.

As far as Melee-esque oki in Smash 4, only Cloud can really do it. Especially with limit he can get a forward throw and easily just weave in and out and cover any ground option on reaction. More then likely your opponent will jump and then you can just move under them. But Cloud players do not play this way, though they are getting there.

In Brawl you could do some very easy mode set play stuff. Like Snake d-throw then hold shield. Covers everything but roll away. If you see that then you just drop shield and re-position. Once you pick up on their habits you can get ballsy like d-throw then walk forward to f-smash for early kills.

It is entirely about reducing the game to the lowest denominator. Where you can think far less about what YOU need to do. And more about what your opponent is doing. Air to ground traps are strong set play in Smash. Easy set play there would be what Cloud does with low to the ground repeated uair traps. The hitbox is above him, protecting his hurtbox and most characters cannot challenge. If they do they get hit the trap resets. If they go to platform then they are at disadvantage as they are still above Cloud. Go to ledge same story. Ledge trap scenario.

So yeah, Cloud players should u-throw more and stuff.

Don't get u-thrown vs cloud you dummies.

People think getting good at fighting games is like 90% mindgames but that is just stupid and false. Fighting games are just being abusive as possible without giving up alot of ground to your opponent. Put them in crap situations and let that situation lead to more crap situations. Do not let yourself get put into crap situations. If you find yourself taking alot of risks you either suck or your character sucks.

 

[|RK|]

Funny thing is that ESAM has joined in the conversation, agreeing with Salem.

After seeing more of their posts I'm kind of getting their point of view. No player is capable of playing perfectly all the time, which is why you'll see Sheiks winning neutral 90% of the time but lose the game after getting touched even once.

More importantly, as ESAM elaborated on his stream, no one wins neutral even 80% of the time. 70% is still unrealistic. He says ZeRo is at maybe 60%. So playing a character like Sheik against a character like Lucario, or DK, or Bowser... that's 40% of the time where you may just get bodied.

I actually also poked ZeRo about this when he was streaming. He said this subject is 40% of the reason he switched to Diddy. He feels like Sheik is the character most prone to getting BS'd, but Diddy's smaller frame and heavier weight help him avoid that a little better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

People think getting good at fighting games is like 90% mindgames but that is just stupid and false. Fighting games are just being abusive as possible without giving up alot of ground to your opponent. Put them in crap situations and let that situation lead to more crap situations. Do not let yourself get put into crap situations. If you find yourself taking alot of risks you either suck or your character sucks.

Weren't we talking a while ago about the importance being in constant advantage state, abusing it and being able to seal stocks out of it?
ZeRo's success comes in big part of his ability to trap his opponents, keep racking like 90% before they are able to reset, and find chances to sneak killing blows like banana>Fsmash, Dtilt>stuff while still being in advantage, and even spikes here and there.

 

[TDK]

Shine pools are out!

...But since it's like EVO (again, I kinda don't like this structure from my point of view), round 1 pools have nothing in them so this is a hypothetical round 2 pools (again). Six advance per pool into top 48. 2 in winners, and 4 in losers. Again, this is all hypothetical and upsets and seeding changes could occur.

HH1: Tweek vs MattyG and Ally vs Shoyo James , Mekos and Trevonte in losers
HH2: Mistake vs Locus and Dabuz vs Cosmos , Craftis and The Great Gonzales in losers (This means Dabuz vs Mistake is seeded. I wonder how Dabuz will deal with this new top Bayo?)
II1: Larry Lurr vs Venom and WaDi vs NAKAT , Saj and Raffi-X in losers
II2: VoiD vs Tyroy and Komorikiri vs Zinoto , Remzi and THUNDER in losers
JJ1: ZeRo vs Aperture and Sonix vs MVD (Fatality isn't going), Zoan and Ling Ling in losers
JJ2: MKLeo vs Light and Captain Zack vs Marss , Promaelia and Koolaid in losers
KK1: Salem vs Dark Wizzy and ESAM vs JK , Xion and DarkAura in losers
KK2: Nairo vs Pugwest and ANTi vs Mr. E , Blacktwins and Pink Fresh in losers

this seems fun.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not sure whether this was posted here but just incase, here is a Duck Hunt 0-Death combo on Town and City showcased by Raito (and yes, there are both Japanese and English captions on the video).

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry Lurr vs Venom

I wonder how Larry's gonna react if he sees this lmao

(Fatality isn't going

oh noooo

 

[Laken64]

The Great Gonzales in losers (

I'm not too sure on this but I've heard on Vivid's twitter that Gonz is picking up (they live in the same region) though I've never seen it in action

Dark Wizzy

I know that Dark Wizzy also talked about using though specifically for the sonic mu, however, seeing how bad Mario bayo is he might go rosa but idk

 

[Nemesis561]

Care to explain why /is so bad for ?I always thought had a pretty good matchup vs her and that it was slightly losing for him or perhaps even

 

[Minordeth]

Of the top tiers, Mario gets camped the easiest by Bayo. Yeah, he can rack up damage by doing Mario things, but he just doesn't have the speed to catch her if she wants to play evasively. He has Fludd to try to mess with her movement, but that's about it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I did the same thing, using the same parameters, for every major* since B.E.A.S.T. 6's full top 8 of doubles:

Spoiler: big

This is the amount of times each character has appeared in top 8 since the full roster became available:

191
84
76
74
60
36
35
31
28
27
26
25
22
20
16
14
13
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

So Cloud has appeared in top 8 over twice as many times as the second-highest character (107 times more, in fact). This character doesn't just dominate doubles. He has a stranglehold on it.

Interestingly, I found a lot less double Cloud than I expected, but a lot of tournaments had 3+ Clouds, reaching as high as 7/16 players using him.

Fun fact: the only major doubles tournaments with no Clouds in top 8 since B.E.A.S.T. 6 was 2GGT: FOW Saga and 2GGT: KTAR Saga.

*using the list on this page: https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments

This was insightful.

My next question would be looking at comparisons and seeing how he compares with other games.

Fox has a similar stranglehold in melee, pika in 64, meta knight in Brawl.

Then posits my next question, is doubles inheritly less balanced than singles? If so it is acceptable?

I'm leaning on no to this bantrain and think as per usual it is a knee jerk reaction to Zero's tweet and double cloud winning something recently.

 

[Minordeth]

Melee Marth's frame data overall is actually not very good in terms of startup and endlag (even with L-cancel). Exluding fair, most of his other moves have considerable start-up and endlag, which is why he is a whiff-punisher character that loves controlling space.

I should have clarified that I meant "in comparison to Smash 4." Of course, frame data isn't a 1:1 comparison, because physics, but if you ported Melee Marth frame data into Smash 4 Marth, he'd get a bit of an upgrade.

EDIT: Looking back at it, Marth hasn't changed too much, actually. Although the better jump squat and better Fair would definitely make him more oppressive/Brawl Marth.

This was insightful.

My next question would be looking at comparisons and seeing how he compares with other games.

Fox has a similar stranglehold in melee, pika in 64, meta knight in Brawl.

Then posits my next question, is doubles inheritly less balanced than singles? If so it is acceptable?

I'm leaning on no to this bantrain and think as per usual it is a knee jerk reaction to Zero's tweet and double cloud winning something recently.

I'd be inclined to believe it's a knee jerk reaction. Recency bias is strong in most of the FGC (and humanity), but for whatever reason, it seems to be hard coded into the Smash 4 community.

 

[Funbot28]

https://twitter.com/HikotsiaIII/status/899927297339387904

Its finally happening at last, Lets hope other regions catch up...

 

[R3D3MON]

https://twitter.com/HikotsiaIII/status/899927297339387904

Its finally happening at last, Lets hope other regions catch up...

Smash 4 community in a nutshell...LOL