Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ぱみゅ]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Just leaving this here for now, I'll comment more on the matter later tonight.
B-b-but Lylat sucks... right?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

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Just leaving this here for now, I'll comment more on the matter later tonight.
B-b-but Lylat sucks... right?

So what causes that to happen?

 

[|RK|]

So what causes that to happen?

Probably platform movement.

EDIT: And on that note, I'd still be concerned more about Lylat. There's exactly one spot you have to avoid at a specific time. That's easy to know, and now everyone in this thread can do it. No extra attention needed.

 

[The-Technique]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Just leaving this here for now, I'll comment more on the matter later tonight.
B-b-but Lylat sucks... right?

I'll laugh my ass off if I see Nairo use this in bracket.

Also...

Sheik loses to: Bayo, DK, Ryu, Diddy, Mario, Bowser, Zss, MK, Megaman.

Okay, thanks. 🦋

— Salem (@SalemBane_) August 21, 2017

Salem thinks Sheik loses to all these characters.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'll laugh my *** off if I see Nairo use this in bracket.

Also...

Sheik loses to: Bayo, DK, Ryu, Diddy, Mario, Bowser, Zss, MK, Megaman.

Okay, thanks. 🦋

— Salem (@SalemBane_) August 21, 2017

Salem thinks Sheik loses to all these characters.

Wait..... so Salem thinks Sheik loses to Mega Man and Meta Knight (Who are known for having a bad Sheik matchup), but not Sonic, Lucario, or Rosalina (Probably her 3 worst matchups)?

I don't get that. At all.

 

[Heracr055]

The Sheik MU isn't too terrible for Ryu in my experience. It's only a hassle if she can get Ryu off stage, where she can intercept his linear recovery with Bouncing Fish, Needles snipe, etc. However, it's difficult for her to net the stock otherwise. And all that damage just puts her stock in greater danger thanks to Ryu's heavy weight and insanely early rage kills vs her. Examples of high level matches that show this are Trela vs Void at 2GGT: Pink Fresh Saga, Locus/Mr. R at Zero Saga and Venom/Mr. R (again) at SCR.

Edit: Just so this doesn't seem like a player vs char issue, does anyone else know of additional Ryu vs non- Mr. R Sheiks (such as Void)?

 

[blackghost]

I'm sorry but i refuse to believe dk beats shiek. Shiek should be bullying dk so hard via frame data, juggles, needles, and edge guarding.
How much shiek usage has Salem put in? I mean is this just his own opinion or is he working on using shiek too.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The Sheik / Bayo MU is a very odd one where it looks like voth of them cn both have the advantage and disadvantage at the same time.

. On one hand, Sheik obviously has a lot of the tools Bayo hates and she one of the few characters Sheik's pre-patch 50/50 kill setups still work on.

However Sheiks superior neutral does enot seem to be a big an Issue for Bayo as it should seem on paper and it does seem she does have a hard time punishing Bayo's stuff . Plus Sheiks combination of size, weight and fall speed makes her a prime candidate for typical Bayo ladder jank.

Also it seems Bat Within seems to be an espeically big thorn in Sheik's side in the MI as well


Kinda like how Sheik is one of more suspectavle top tiers aside from Fox that Ryu can confirm TSK setups on

 

[Minordeth]

I like Salem. But what makes up most of his reasoning, as he explains later, is that players aren't perfect, he's noticed that players in this game are slow to change behavior so their option choice is now part of the MU, Sheik doesn't have a strong item for advantage, and watching top Sheiks play makes these MUs self evident.

I'm not a Sheik main, but as a general rule, what top players do is not always the optimal thing to do. Especially in this game.

Also, he said Sheik is bad at killing. You're welcome FeelMeUp .

 

[DunnoBro]

I agree sheik is a bit overhyped, she is absolutely not top 3 (which still leaves a lot of freaking hype) And I recognize she probably has more losing/even matchups than people are willing to accept because "muh neutral." But I don't think it's prudent to claim she LOSES to ALL those characters rather than simply claiming they're even.

But then again, claiming MUs are even doesn't get as much response.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sorry to be off-topic, but I would like to know,
What are people's definition of a gimmicky character?
Is it having tools that only work against the same person once?
Which characters are notorious for this?
Does every character have a gimmick in one way or another and is it mainly a low tier thing?

 

[DMan64]

Sorry to be off-topic, but I would like to know,
What are people's definition of a gimmicky character?
Is it having tools that only work against the same person once?
Which characters are notorious for this?
Does every character have a gimmick in one way or another and is it mainly a low tier thing?

To me, gimmicky characters are characters that play around a particular tool or attribute in order to be effective, another way to look at it can be technical, trickster, etc.

Another way to look at it is a trait which identifies with that/those particular character/characters

Examples can include
Cloud's Limit
Wario's Waft
Shulk's Monodo Arts
Rosalina and Luma
Bayonetta
Robin's Durability

I could go on, but that's how I see it as.

 

[Das Koopa]

2GGC: SCR Saga (August 19th-20th) (Southern California) (301 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:

TSM | ZeRo
2nd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
3rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
4th:

EMG | Mistake
5th:

CLG | VoiD
5th:

P1 | Captain Zack ,
7th:

MVG | Salem ,
7th:

NRG | Nairo
9th:

C9 | Ally
9th:

bc | Mr. R
9th:

2GG | komorikiri ,
9th:

P1 | Tweek
13th:

eM | Zenyou
13th:

PiXL
13th:

DNG | Kameme ,
13th:

IMT | ANTi ,
17th:

LH | Charliedaking
17th:

SWG | Lima
17th:

SSMBTL | Venom
17th:

Samsora
17th:

Ho3K | Gen
17th:

YP | Fatality
17th:

LG | Abadango ,
17th:

StDx | Falln
25th:

Captain L
25th:

Luhtie
25th:

Locus
25th:

SAK | Stroder ,
25th:

Chanshu
25th:

LH | Meteor
25th:

DA | Dunkmaster Ragna
25th:

yeti ,

Spoiler: MIUS: Curtain Call (August 20th) (Midwest) (103 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Ned
2nd: Marss ,
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Blank
5th: Nero
5th: Nom
7th: King James
7th: SETHsational

Spoiler: Meltdown Smash Challenge 4 (August 20th) (France) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny
2nd: Myollnir
3rd: TheFlow
4th: Krycken

Spoiler: Battleground: Chicagoland (August 19th) (Midwest) (54 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: JJROCKETS
2nd: Seth
3rd: SNooFL
4th: Sree

Spoiler: August Versus Huntsville 2017 (August 19th) (Southeast) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ChillyChilli
2nd: PSherman
3rd: Kieran
4th: Tran

Spoiler: TIMBER 3 (August 19th) (New England) (28 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pelca
2nd: Zaney
3rd: Riot
4th: Dissent

Spoiler: Summer Madness (August 19th) (South) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Deluxemenu
2nd: Chuck Nasty ,
3rd: YellowRello ,
4th: Zurge

Spoiler: Golden Triangle Smash: Clash for Columbus (August 19th) (Southeast) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sonido
2nd: Makibaz
3rd: Ketsen
4th: Dr. NGU

Spoiler: REFLECT 7 (August 19th) (Florida) (26 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Myran
2nd: Akashic
3rd: DewDaDash
4th: KidG

Spoiler: Anime Buzz no 6 (August 19th-20th) (Brazil) (25 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ArTr
2nd: poop ,
3rd: Cieli
4th: PuzoorMarcelo

Spoiler: PPM Berlin 5 (August 20th) (Germany) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sodrek
2nd: Schligger ,
3rd: Faith
4th: Frieddo

Spoiler: Shinespiked 9 (August 19th) (British Columbia) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Big D
2nd: Zak
3rd: Grade
4th: Focus

Spoiler: Kentokyo Battle (August 19th) (Midwest) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: AceStarThe3rd
3rd: Swiggens
4th: Shin

Spoiler: Updated Character Results

Diddy Kong: 670
Bayonetta: 657.5
Cloud: 543.5
Sheik: 435.5
Sonic: 370
Fox: 368.5
Mario: 375
Zero Suit Samus: 305
Rosalina & Luma: 276
Ryu: 229.5
Mewtwo: 206
Corrin: 174.5
Mega Man: 156.5
Pikachu: 139
Meta Knight: 133.5
Captain Falcon: 132.5
Marth: 129
Peach: 127.5
Donkey Kong: 127
Ness: 112
Luigi: 105.5
Bowser: 103.5
Greninja: 103
Villager: 97.5
Olimar: 73.5
Lucina: 72.5
Toon Link: 71.5
Lucas: 66.5
R.O.B.: 65
Yoshi: 63.5
Samus: 61.5
Lucario: 60.5
Duck Hunt: 59
Little Mac: 44.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 43.5
Roy: 43.5
Ike: 42.5
Wario: 40
Pac-Man: 37
Robin: 33.5
Charizard: 31
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Link: 22.5
Shulk: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
King Dedede: 14
Ganondorf: 10
Falco: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 3
Dark Pit: 2

 

[FullMoon]

Wow I leave for a while and all of sudden Salem is using Greninja as a secondary. For the Bayonetta MU even.

That's something all right.

Uh, hi everyone.

 

[TDK]

Best character in doubles.

I will not disagree with that at all. However, what are the rest of these results? What does going down to 8th look like?

Is it Melee Fox bad for how over centralized that characters makes doubles in melee?

Is it the same player or players?

Is doubles really on the decline like Zero said? Or is the lack of interest consistent as it has been similar to other games?

I'm open to discussion but pictures like that feel misleading.

I did the same thing, using the same parameters, for every major* since B.E.A.S.T. 6's full top 8 of doubles:

Spoiler: big

This is the amount of times each character has appeared in top 8 since the full roster became available:

191
84
76
74
60
36
35
31
28
27
26
25
22
20
16
14
13
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0

So Cloud has appeared in top 8 over twice as many times as the second-highest character (107 times more, in fact). This character doesn't just dominate doubles. He has a stranglehold on it.

Interestingly, I found a lot less double Cloud than I expected, but a lot of tournaments had 3+ Clouds, reaching as high as 7/16 players using him.

Fun fact: the only major doubles tournaments with no Clouds in top 8 since B.E.A.S.T. 6 was 2GGT: FOW Saga and 2GGT: KTAR Saga.

*using the list on this page: https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_national_tournaments

 

[Game7a1]

Spoiler: TIMBER 3 (August 19th) (New England) (28 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pelca
2nd: Zaney
3rd: Riot
4th: Dissent

Riot plays .

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, at MSM:

NotLast > Abadango

 

[Minordeth]

Hot take: all the MUs in this game are suspect because Smash 4 is incredibly complex and things like set-play, footsies, okizeme, and basic option selection are underdeveloped or non existent because the training mode sucks so bad.

Hotter take: the training mode actually holds this games meta back.

 

[|RK|]

Wait..... so Salem thinks Sheik loses to Mega Man and Meta Knight (Who are known for having a bad Sheik matchup), but not Sonic, Lucario, or Rosalina (Probably her 3 worst matchups)?

I don't get that. At all.

He says Lucario (and Kirby, since someone mentioned them together... not me) are even MUs.

The lack of Rosalina is surprising, though.

And tbh, VoiD himself - the poster boy for killing with Sheik - has said "Sheik can't kill" isn't a meme, but reality.

Also, while I'm making some random observations... interesting how Sheik is starting to fall and Duck Hunt is rising.

 

[Minordeth]

Sheik should kill better than Mario.

 

[FeelMeUp]

This seems like the best Sheik has done since the patch, actually.
There are more notable successful Sheik mains than ever before and Sheik is almost guaranteed top 8 at majors.

 

[R3D3MON]

Smash 4 is incredibly complex

lol.

Hotter take: the training mode actually holds this games meta back.

Agreed. E.g. the fact that training mode does not take rage into account makes it very annoying to test things.

 

[Minordeth]

lol.



Agreed. E.g. the fact that training mode does not take rage into account makes it very annoying to test things.

Heh. I understand the "lol", but it really is. All that complexity happens to be under the hood though and happens to impact the game in esoteric ways.

Like, planning set plays is a thing in most other fighters because of set jump height, strict movement, and set buttons and programmable scenarios.

 

[R3D3MON]

Heh. I understand the "lol", but it really is. All that complexity happens to be under the hood though and happens to impact the game in esoteric ways.

Like, planning set plays is a thing in most other fighters because of set jump height, strict movement, and set buttons and programmable scenarios.

That's basically in every smash game.

 

[Myollnir]

Results

Thanks for that work.

I was wondering, is there some criteria for a second character to appear on results? Or do you just decide yourself?

 

[TDK]

[SIZE=3.5]MSM 110 ft. MKLeo, Larry Lurr, Abadango, Komorikiri, Chanshu, takera, Venom, Dunkmaster Ragna, and more

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Chanshu
3rd: Dunkmaster Ragna
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: :^)
5th: Komorikiri
7th: Takera
7th: Mr. Con Con (Entered as "Logic the Rapper")

17th: Abadango [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3.5]

Thanks for that work.

I was wondering, is there some criteria for a second character to appear on results? Or do you just decide yourself?

I'm not Das Koopa, but the general rule seems to be any character that is confirmed to have taken a game in tournament by a player gets on the results for that player.[/SIZE]

 

[ぱみゅ]

MSM 110 ft. MKLeo, Larry Lurr, Abadango, Komorikiri, Chanshu, takera, Venom, Dunkmaster Ragna, and more

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Chanshu
3rd: Dunkmaster Ragna
4th: Larry Lurr
5th: :^)
5th: Komorikiri
7th: Takera
7th: Mr. Con Con (Entered as "Logic the Rapper")

17th: Abadango [/SIZE]

It annoys me that the default font size seems to be 3.5, so when you accidentally change the font you can't get back.


I'm not Das Koopa, but the general rule seems to be any character that is confirmed to have taken a game in tournament by a player gets on the results for that player

Protip: use the "BB Code editor at the top right corner of the text box, it's almost magical.

Leo not only overcame his Ryu weakness, he won with AUTHORITY against one of the Top 3 Ryus in the world.

 

[The-Technique]

Well that sure was a wacky MSM. Larry Lurr getting doubled eliminated by Ryu mains and Leo cleaning the house with his Marth and Corrin. Oh and Komo randomly picking Bowser and 2 stocking Leo's Cloud.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

2GGC: SCR Saga (August 19th-20th) (Southern California) (301 Entrants) (Category 4)
1st:

TSM | ZeRo
2nd:

FOX MVG | MKLeo ,
3rd:

MSF | Larry Lurr
4th:

EMG | Mistake
5th:

CLG | VoiD
5th:

P1 | Captain Zack ,
7th:

MVG | Salem ,
7th:

NRG | Nairo
9th:

C9 | Ally
9th:

bc | Mr. R
9th:

2GG | komorikiri ,
9th:

P1 | Tweek
13th:

eM | Zenyou
13th:

PiXL
13th:

DNG | Kameme ,
13th:

IMT | ANTi ,
17th:

LH | Charliedaking
17th:

SWG | Lima
17th:

SSMBTL | Venom
17th:

Samsora
17th:

Ho3K | Gen
17th:

YP | Fatality
17th:

LG | Abadango ,
17th:

StDx | Falln
25th:

Captain L
25th:

Luhtie
25th:

Locus
25th:

SAK | Stroder ,
25th:

Chanshu
25th:

LH | Meteor
25th:

DA | Dunkmaster Ragna
25th:

yeti ,

Spoiler: MIUS: Curtain Call (August 20th) (Midwest) (103 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Ned
2nd: Marss ,
3rd: Dark Wizzy
4th: Blank
5th: Nero
5th: Nom
7th: King James
7th: SETHsational

Spoiler: Meltdown Smash Challenge 4 (August 20th) (France) (68 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Glutonny
2nd: Myollnir
3rd: TheFlow
4th: Krycken

Spoiler: Battleground: Chicagoland (August 19th) (Midwest) (54 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: JJROCKETS
2nd: Seth
3rd: SNooFL
4th: Sree

Spoiler: August Versus Huntsville 2017 (August 19th) (Southeast) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ChillyChilli
2nd: PSherman
3rd: Kieran
4th: Tran

Spoiler: TIMBER 3 (August 19th) (New England) (28 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Pelca
2nd: Zaney
3rd: Riot
4th: Dissent

Spoiler: Summer Madness (August 19th) (South) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Deluxemenu
2nd: Chuck Nasty ,
3rd: YellowRello ,
4th: Zurge

Spoiler: Golden Triangle Smash: Clash for Columbus (August 19th) (Southeast) (63 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sonido
2nd: Makibaz
3rd: Ketsen
4th: Dr. NGU

Spoiler: REFLECT 7 (August 19th) (Florida) (26 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Myran
2nd: Akashic
3rd: DewDaDash
4th: KidG

Spoiler: Anime Buzz no 6 (August 19th-20th) (Brazil) (25 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: ArTr
2nd: poop ,
3rd: Cieli
4th: PuzoorMarcelo

Spoiler: PPM Berlin 5 (August 20th) (Germany) (35 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Sodrek
2nd: Schligger ,
3rd: Faith
4th: Frieddo

Spoiler: Shinespiked 9 (August 19th) (British Columbia) (52 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Big D
2nd: Zak
3rd: Grade
4th: Focus

Spoiler: Kentokyo Battle (August 19th) (Midwest) (34 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkShad
2nd: AceStarThe3rd
3rd: Swiggens
4th: Shin

Spoiler: Updated Character Results

Diddy Kong: 670
Bayonetta: 657.5
Cloud: 543.5
Sheik: 435.5
Sonic: 370
Fox: 368.5
Mario: 375
Zero Suit Samus: 305
Rosalina & Luma: 276
Ryu: 229.5
Mewtwo: 206
Corrin: 174.5
Mega Man: 156.5
Pikachu: 139
Meta Knight: 133.5
Captain Falcon: 132.5
Marth: 129
Peach: 127.5
Donkey Kong: 127
Ness: 112
Luigi: 105.5
Bowser: 103.5
Greninja: 103
Villager: 97.5
Olimar: 73.5
Lucina: 72.5
Toon Link: 71.5
Lucas: 66.5
R.O.B.: 65
Yoshi: 63.5
Samus: 61.5
Lucario: 60.5
Duck Hunt: 59
Little Mac: 44.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 43.5
Roy: 43.5
Ike: 42.5
Wario: 40
Pac-Man: 37
Robin: 33.5
Charizard: 31
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Link: 22.5
Shulk: 22
Pit: 19.5
Palutena: 18
King Dedede: 14
Ganondorf: 10
Falco: 10
Jigglypuff: 9.5
Zelda: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Mii Gunner: 3
Dark Pit: 2

Finally Yoshi moves above Samus!

Hot take: all the MUs in this game are suspect because Smash 4 is incredibly complex and things like set-play, footsies, okizeme, and basic option selection are underdeveloped or non existent because the training mode sucks so bad.

Hotter take: the training mode actually holds this games meta back.

Three questions:

1. What makes training mode suck exactly IYO?

2. What is this "okizeme" you speak of?

3. (Related to comment below) Why do you propose Sheik should kill better than Mario?

 

[HoSmash4]

Venom lost to Strike a Canadian sheik at GOML.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Heh. I understand the "lol", but it really is. All that complexity happens to be under the hood though and happens to impact the game in esoteric ways.

Like, planning set plays is a thing in most other fighters because of set jump height, strict movement, and set buttons and programmable scenarios.

Melee has hella set play.

Smash 4 is very "loose", compared to the others. Plus rage.

Okizeme is a Tekken term meaning the Art of keeping your opponent on the ground or keeping them in disadvantage once you have grounded them. Very hard to do in Smash games, but far more doable in past smash games compared to Smash 4. Mainly due to changes to hitstun, hitlag, and other physics as well as hit angles.

 

[blackghost]

The Sheik / Bayo MU is a very odd one where it looks like voth of them cn both have the advantage and disadvantage at the same time.

. On one hand, Sheik obviously has a lot of the tools Bayo hates and she one of the few characters Sheik's pre-patch 50/50 kill setups still work on.

However Sheiks superior neutral does enot seem to be a big an Issue for Bayo as it should seem on paper and it does seem she does have a hard time punishing Bayo's stuff . Plus Sheiks combination of size, weight and fall speed makes her a prime candidate for typical Bayo ladder jank.

Also it seems Bat Within seems to be an espeically big thorn in Sheik's side in the MI as well


Kinda like how Sheik is one of more suspectavle top tiers aside from Fox that Ryu can confirm TSK setups on

batwithin is only a pain on bouncing fish. virtually any other use against a shiek is just asking to get punished. bouncing fish is really easy to escape tho and its a primary kill setup for shiek. but shieks should be killing via throw 50 50 on bayo not bouncing fish anyway
also aba is proof that characters need ot fit players his bayo is just so awkward. he doesnt pick options quickly. and he doesnt read di or sdi consistently

 

[OverTime]

Sheik should kill better than Mario.

The ability to kill off a single raw move is too important in this game for that to be true. Sheik having lack lustre smash attacks is actually a humongous detriment

 

[Nemesis561]

Sorry to be off-topic, but I would like to know,
What are people's definition of a gimmicky character?
Is it having tools that only work against the same person once?
Which characters are notorious for this?
Does every character have a gimmick in one way or another and is it mainly a low tier thing?

When I think of gimmick characters I automatically think about characters like Dedede, Pacman and Bowser Jr who thrive on their opponents' matchup inexperience. The first few times you play them you may lose because you might be caught off guard by setups and tricks that you may not have seen before, but once you learn the matchup and uncover the cracks of those characters, you understand why they actually are HOT GARBAGE. (Sad Bowser jr player here ) (However I think Pacman is kind of underrated)

 

[outfoxd]

Melee has hella set play.

Smash 4 is very "loose", compared to the others. Plus rage.

Okizeme is a Tekken term meaning the Art of keeping your opponent on the ground or keeping them in disadvantage once you have grounded them. Very hard to do in Smash games, but far more doable in past smash games compared to Smash 4. Mainly due to changes to hitstun, hitlag, and other physics as well as hit angles.

Always wondered about that. In Melee when I see a Falcon murder a stock almost entirely from tech chasing I'm always reminded of Tekken-style oki and wonder why it doesn't work that way in S4.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Always wondered about that. In Melee when I see a Falcon murder a stock almost entirely from tech chasing I'm always reminded of Tekken-style oki and wonder why it doesn't work that way in S4.

Largely the input lag and the way you can no longer CC getup attacks

 

[my_T]

He says Lucario (and Kirby, since someone mentioned them together... not me) are even MUs.

The lack of Rosalina is surprising, though.

And tbh, VoiD himself - the poster boy for killing with Sheik - has said "Sheik can't kill" isn't a meme, but reality.

Also, while I'm making some random observations... interesting how Sheik is starting to fall and Duck Hunt is rising.

How is Sheik starting to fall? Don't either Void or Mr R or both always make top 8 most of the time? Sheiks level of consistency at top level should not be overlooked. What other characters can compete with her in terms of consistency other than Diddy, Rosa, and Sonic? Usually when the top level reps of these characters show up they tend to place top 8 or top 16 and very rarely place outside of that. It's very telling of how strong their MU spreads are.

 

[Minordeth]

Finally Yoshi moves above Samus!



Three questions:

1. What makes training mode suck exactly IYO?

2. What is this "okizeme" you speak of?

3. (Related to comment below) Why do you propose Sheik should kill better than Mario?

Melee has hella set play.

Smash 4 is very "loose", compared to the others. Plus rage.

Okizeme is a Tekken term meaning the Art of keeping your opponent on the ground or keeping them in disadvantage once you have grounded them. Very hard to do in Smash games, but far more doable in past smash games compared to Smash 4. Mainly due to changes to hitstun, hitlag, and other physics as well as hit angles.

Skeeter Mania - hopefully this explains it a bit. I'm dropping the term mostly to rag on the training mode.

As for why training mode sucks, literally play any other non-Smash fighting game. I can't program the AI to do anything other than super generic states, it doesn't account for rage, and there is no way to account for DI in a game series where DI is a main defensive mechanic. Smash doesn't have combo breakers/burst/insert defensive ability here, so being unable to practice a key defense solo is a pretty big detriment.

Emblem Lord - yeah, modern Melee is pretty set play heavy. It's an area where the Smash 4 meta is really underdeveloped. As a side note, one of these days, we are going to get an Armada that meticulously memorized and develops every option for every percent and situation and make people turn off autopilot for once. Maybe.

The ability to kill off a single raw move is too important in this game for that to be true. Sheik having lack lustre smash attacks is actually a humongous detriment

Mario has to actually hit with that single raw move. That jump ins are still so popular in the meta benefits him greatly. It won't be like that forever. Mario has no where to go but down, as he just isn't fast enough for the other top tiers and has no kill confirms. He is going to inevitably develop Marthritis as the game develops, and he is showing signs of it already.

Largely the input lag and the way you can no longer CC getup attacks

Yeah, tech chasing is a lot less punishing in this game. It's one of the many reasons people have been able to autopilot for so long - you don't feel a sense of dread if you are knocked down.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Wow Salemopinions are worse than Esamopinions honestly.

 

[OverTime]

Mario has to actually hit with that single raw move. That jump ins are still so popular in the meta benefits him greatly. It won't be like that forever. Mario has no where to go but down, as he just isn't fast enough for the other top tiers and has no kill confirms. He is going to inevitably develop Marthritis as the game develops, and he is showing signs of it already.

Sheik has had Marthritis forever. Mario may have to land that one move but landing only one move (Be it Grab, U-Smash, D-Smash, F-Smash, B-Air, U-Air) after X percent is a lot easier than having a percent window to set up for a kill.

Sheik has a plethora of kill set ups obviously she should be killing between 105 and 135 logically speaking. But they're all set ups. All effected by DI. All with minute percent windows. Once you past that window it's not like you can kill with a grab or a smash attack. The next raw kill option that's relatively safe is like... F-Tilt at the high 100s. She balances this by being super hard to kill herself.

Kill confirms mean a lot less in this game when there are so many options to kill directly from winning neutral.