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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Lord Dio

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
Cloud has almost as many wins in doubles as the other 57 characters in smash 4 put together.

What do you guys think about Cloud in doubles?
well first off, I'd like to see somone go and check it, because I have a hard time believing ness and lucas have more wins on doubles then marth, rosa, mk, sonic, or ryu.
Second, that all Cloud match of Ally and someone else vs leo and komo at smash, 4 clouds, is a perfect doubles match for me lol.
Third........okay, maybe we should have a one cloud per team rule......I guess.
 
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well first off, I'd like to see somone go and check it, because I have a hard time believing ness and lucas have more wins on doubles then marth, rosa, mk, sonic, or ryu.
Second, that all Cloud match of Ally and someone else vs leo and komo at smash, 4 clouds, is a perfect doubles match for me lol.
Third........okay, maybe we should have a one cloud per team rule......I guess.
For Ness, the results likely come from NAKAT. Void and NAKAT have won doubles tournaments.
For Lucas, likely from Taiheita (with Goma at SSC 2016).
But I don't remember a single Ryu, Sonic, MK, Marth, or Rosa (definitely not Rosa) winning a doubles major or at a Grand Finals of a doubles major.
 
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Illusion.

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Cloud is extremely over-centralizing in the doubles metagame; I no longer enjoy watching nor playing said event at bigger events since he's everywhere. To give a personal example, 5 of the 7 doubles sets I played at LTC 5 had a Cloud on the opposing team. It's not fun fighting the same thing over and over again, it's stale. Just look at results, there are so many Clouds in the top placings at doubles events.

With that said, if a discussion of a ban for him was on the table, I'd be in favor. That's not to say he's unbeatable though.
 
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Skeeter Mania

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Cloud is extremely over-centralizing in the doubles metagame; I no longer enjoy watching nor playing said event at bigger events since he's everywhere. To give a personal example, 5 of the 7 doubles sets I played at LTC 5 had a Cloud on the opposing team. It's not fun fighting the same thing over and over again, it's stale. Just look at results, there are so many Clouds in the top placings at doubles events.

With that said, if a discussion of a ban for him was on the table, I'd be in favor. That's not to say he's unbeatable though.
Why is he so good in the format?
 

FeelMeUp

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Double Cloud isn't the best team in the game, but it is the easiest to perform with and most irritating to play against(imo).
 

FSLink

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Why is he so good in the format?
Easier kill confirms, Finishing Touch can easily be set up with a partner's throw.
Easier time recovering than singles, your partner can cover you trying to recover
Great throws for setting stuff up and easy hand off combos with nair, bair, etc.
 
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ARISTOS

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
Cloud has almost as many wins in doubles as the other 57 characters in smash 4 put together.

What do you guys think about Cloud in doubles?
Banning double Cloud functionally makes no difference apart from screwing Leo+Komo over.

Cloud in general is just a centralizing force in doubles, though not much can be done about that outside of a ban.
 
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blackghost

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Why is he so good in the format?
He's easy to use and limit on teams sets up some easy throw combo kills. He still has good range and frame data as well.

I'm against banning characters tho. Isn't it true that data is counting whenever cloud was used bybthr winners? Nairo, zero, komo, Leo, Mvd, ally,anti, tweek, and others all use cloud and even if he's not part of the winning team he still has the highest usage rate in double by far
 
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DunnoBro

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I don't mind, but accept that it IS a slippery slope. It accepts the notion that Cloud is 'broken' and 'banworthy.' Even if it's currently only within the realm of doubles, it does open the discussion up for bans in singles.
 

Emblem Lord

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Cloud is obviously number 1 in doubles.

Ban him or not but to say he isn't the best character in that format means you do not know anything about the game. Period.
 

|RK|

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Meanwhile, I sit here wondering why people continue to take Bayo to Smashville.

I'd honestly rather deal w/ bullets on Lylat.
 

blackghost

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Meanwhile, I sit here wondering why people continue to take Bayo to Smashville.

I'd honestly rather deal w/ bullets on Lylat.
It's really morr like don't take Salem to lylat. The other bayo's much rather the on smashville or town. Especially zack
 

TDK

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2GGC: SCR Saga (301 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:
2nd: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth: :4corrinf:
3rd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
4th: Mistake :4bayonetta2:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta2: :4peach: (Tweeted about beating JK with Peach)
7th: Salem :4bayonetta2: :4greninja:
7th: Nairo :4zss:
9th: Ally :4mario:
9th: Mr. R :4sheik:
9th: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic:
9th: Tweek :4cloud2:
13th: ANTi :4cloud2: :4zss: :4mario:
13th: PiXL :4ryu:
13th: Kameme :4megaman: :4sheik:
13th: Zenyou :4mario:
17th: Charliedaking :4fox: :4bayonetta2:
17th: Lima :4bayonetta2:
17th: Venom :4ryu:
17th: Samsora :4peach:
17th: Gen :4ryu:
17th: Fatality :4falcon:
17th: Abadango :4bayonetta2:
17th: Falln :rosalina:
25th: Captain L :4pikachu:
25th: Luhtie :4zss:
25th: Yeti :4tlink: :4falcon:
25th: Stroder :4greninja: :4fox:
25th: Locus :4ryu:
25th: Chanshu :4ryu:
25th: Meteor :4sonic:
25th: Dunkmaster Ragna :4ryu:
 
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Lord Dio

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I watched komo vs Mistake
poor komo, he looked kinda lost fighting mistake, like he wanted to do a slow, methodical approach and then mistake just comes in like NOPE high speed combo time.
 

Kofu

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I watched komo vs Mistake
poor komo, he looked kinda lost fighting mistake, like he wanted to do a slow, methodical approach and then mistake just comes in like NOPE high speed combo time.
Komo's gameplan generally involves a slow, methodical approach. He's a very deliberate player.
 

Jaguar360

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> Top 3 Greninja placings at Greninja Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> Top 3 Ryu placings at SCR Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> A Greninja and Ryu player from another country take a set off a top 2 Sheik at each event
> Public perception post-saga: Greninja is mediocre/Ryu is broken

kek

Passive-aggressive jokes aside, I wanted to talk about Salem's Greninja. Salem's style of Greninja is pretty much the missing piece of the puzzle that Greninja rep needed. Top 15 player fundamentals, grounded style (very important vs a lot of top tiers like Bayonetta, Diddy and Cloud!), lots of shuriken usage and good neutral play. Salem needs to work on less Substitute usage (spoiled from Witch Time a bit I guess) and less extensions in advantage but it looks very solid and with some more polishing and practice he could grow to be the best Greninja with the fundamentals he has. I think it will serve him very well in the Bayo ditto, though I don't know what other matchups he would use Gren over Bayo for. Could work in some more niche matchups like the PK kids I guess.
 

|RK|

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Anyone else seeing a marked difference between the "old school" style and the "new school" style?

The people who started with Brawl seem really focused on an exceptional neutral game - which makes sense. Build strong punishes off that foundation.

Comparatively, newer school players are way more concerned with their punish game, which seems to prepare them more for Smash 4 in a way.

Obviously, they both care about neutral and punishes, but on different levels.

Example - Marss is much more aggressive than Nairo, maybe putting himself out there more because he's willing to risk more for more reward.

Mistake and CaptainZack use Witch Time more than Salem putting the risk out there and understanding they'll get more reward from their conversions.

Obviously all of these players have good neutral, but not as good as Nairo or Salem. But they seem to care more about (and understand) how to exploit "Smash 4" factor.

Locus gets hit on purpose when playing Ryu, as another example. He understands Smash 4 factor as well, and risks more for more reward.

Mr. R has often been said to have a better neutral than VoiD, but VoiD tends to kill way more easily.

Just interesting to me. And again - all the players listed have great to amazing neutrals. But the old-school players seem to focus on it way more than Smash 4 factor.




OH! Dabuz and Falln (I think)? I believe Falln goes for more "jank setups" as Dabuz calls them.
 

Skeeter Mania

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> Top 3 Greninja placings at Greninja Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> Top 3 Ryu placings at SCR Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> A Greninja and Ryu player from another country take a set off a top 2 Sheik at each event
> Public perception post-saga: Greninja is mediocre/Ryu is broken

kek

Passive-aggressive jokes aside, I wanted to talk about Salem's Greninja. Salem's style of Greninja is pretty much the missing piece of the puzzle that Greninja rep needed. Top 15 player fundamentals, grounded style (very important vs a lot of top tiers like Bayonetta, Diddy and Cloud!), lots of shuriken usage and good neutral play. Salem needs to work on less Substitute usage (spoiled from Witch Time a bit I guess) and less extensions in advantage but it looks very solid and with some more polishing and practice he could grow to be the best Greninja with the fundamentals he has. I think it will serve him very well in the Bayo ditto, though I don't know what other matchups he would use Gren over Bayo for. Could work in some more niche matchups like the PK kids I guess.
Again with criticizing better players...
 

Heracr055

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Again with criticizing better players...
He probably has a good perspective of what Greninja is capable of, based off what other Greninja players have demonstrated. And he's saying that Salem can make adjustments to improve his Greninja. Mind you, Salem just started using Greninja, so there's absolutely room for criticism.
I seem to recall you making this complaint before (I think it was when Bayo players were being compared iirc), and I don't agree with you believing top players shouldn't be criticized by non-top players; it's quite a disparaging point of view.
 
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NairWizard

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The thing is is that some of these players that rely on advantage state aren't "good" in neutral in the first place. Most of the reason that I say that Bayonetta drains me as a spectator is that I like to see exciting neutral play. Instead, I'm watching Mistake (who is a great player, don't get me wrong) Heel Slide toward Void 3 times in a row in neutral on Lylat and still win the match. Some of the smash 4 characters (that is to say Cloud in doubles and Bayo in singles; Bowser and DK have the same issue but they're much weaker characters overall so it isn't as prevalent) have such forgiving hitboxes and advantage combos that it doesn't matter if your neutral is just average or unrefined/unpolished.

Salem is the only top Bayo who would be a top player with any other character, because his neutral is just incredible. He might even have the best neutral of any player.

Also, he has the slipperiest frog I've ever seen.


Again with criticizing better players...
Better players are better mostly because they can execute faster and make good snap decisions under pressure, not because they're better overall decision makers than everyone else.

If you slowed the game down to a crawl at 1 frame per second, our current top players would likely not remain our top players for very long. There are people with better understanding of the game, but applying that better understanding quickly enough to be able to react to a quick-moving opponent's options in-game isn't always feasible.
 
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Nathan Richardson

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Better players are better mostly because they can execute faster and make good snap decisions under pressure, not because they're better overall decision makers than everyone else.

If you slowed the game down to a crawl at 1 frame per second, our current top players would likely not remain our top players for very long. There are people with better understanding of the game, but applying that better understanding quickly enough to be able to react to a quick-moving opponent's options in-game isn't always feasible.
Exactly, I lose to spam, completely misunderstand the way my character is supposed to fight at times, and even have a below average reaction time. This hasn't stopped me from trying to give good advice and double-checking with other posters on how my character can be played.

Again with criticizing better players...
You know, you brought this up a few pages back. One of the other posters on here brushed it off thinking it was a JOKE. Given this line it's obvious it wasn't. If you think top players can't be criticised on these boards.....maybe you shouldn't be here, just saying.
 
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Bowserboy3

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Salem using Greninja so he can avoid the Bayonetta ditto is interesting to me... I've always kind of struggled with the Bayonetta:Greninja MU in general, but I just put that down to me sucking.

But thinking about it, there may be some merit to using Greninja in that MU that we should be reviewing.

For a start, there's the obvious Shadow Sneak to get out of combos, namely Witch Twist and ABK (something Salem strangely wasn't really abusing but w/e). But then there's things like his standing hurtbox being naturally low to the ground. This is important; it makes Bayonetta spacing and getting fishing kills with Bair a lot harder. It's also nigh on impossible to Bullet Climax camp him because of this, even on Lylat, as shown in the Salem v Mistake set.

What's more, Greninja's combos are very strict. What I mean by this is that it's mostly just one move into one or two more and then that's clearly it. Basically, Greninja likely won't be overextending outside of his usual combo range much at all, cutting the risk of getting Witch Time'd out of a "combo".

I'm not saying Greninja is a counter to Bayonetta or anything, but there are some notable things Greninja has vs Bayonetta, and I think it's worth keeping an eye on. It will be very interesting to see where Salem takes this in the future.
 

DunnoBro

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Bayo has to rely on her neutral to beat Greninja. Can't just get one random conversion to stock. It's probably the best pick for Salem as the best neutral Bayo. He understands what he needs to avoid most.

Heel Slide toward Void 3 times in a row in neutral on Lylat and still win the match
I don't really disagree with the bulk of your post, but this is totally an optimal decision considering sheik can't punish it very hard at all. In fact I always cringe when people say "Whoa he just heel slided into him" as if that move isn't crazy safe compared to the incredible reward it gives and the options it covers.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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There was a problem fetching the tweet
Cloud has almost as many wins in doubles as the other 57 characters in smash 4 put together.

What do you guys think about Cloud in doubles?
Best character in doubles.

I will not disagree with that at all. However, what are the rest of these results? What does going down to 8th look like?

Is it Melee Fox bad for how over centralized that characters makes doubles in melee?

Is it the same player or players?

Is doubles really on the decline like Zero said? Or is the lack of interest consistent as it has been similar to other games?

I'm open to discussion but pictures like that feel misleading.
 

HoSmash4

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Greninja disadvantage gets bodied by Bayonetta. Gets edgeguarded, combo'd a lot and cant land vs the hitboxes. SSHC isnt your saviour as it doesnt work IIRC if you're forced into tumble. Mistake got a few death combos on Salem.

From what I saw Greninja shuriken camping looks pretty hard for Bayonetta to deal with, makes Bayonetta has to force her way in to avoid accumulating chip damage and rely on her devastating advantage state. Meaning Greninja can focus on shurkien camping and maneouvering about until Bayonetta gives an opening.
 

Funbot28

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Honestly if doubles wants to be saved at this point, then a 1 limit Cloud clause has to be implemented like MK in Brawl. Komo / Leo is basically a free win a this point and many top players are realizing this, thus not even signing up to it anymore. I don't understand why it is so contentious to talk about.
 

Pyrover

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I feel like people are worried that any limitations placed on a character will set a precedent for banning characters in other scenarios. Cloud being THE doubles character is nothing new. We've all known he was the best character in the format for at least a year. He was given nerfs specifically to things that only matter in doubles, so even Nintendo was aware of it. Granted, these nerfs were a slap on the wrist that obviously didn't do much of anything, but the thought stands.

In other games, characters aren't always banned for being broken. They are sometimes banned for being overly centralizing. Look at Aegislash or Mega Gengar in competitive Pokémon. Both were totally fair, but if you didn't bring hard counters to them then you lost, which made them centralizing. I feel like Cloud is an example of that. He's not broken per se, but there's no denying that almost all teams are better when he replaces one character. Putting a hard limit of one Cloud per team, or maybe thinking about a doubles ban is not out of the question. I believe that Game&Watch was briefly banned from doubles because of certain Oil Panic setups meaning he got free kills if you didn't have a hard counter to that strategy. This isn't that different.
 

|RK|

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From what I saw Greninja shuriken camping looks pretty hard for Bayonetta to deal with, makes Bayonetta has to force her way in to avoid accumulating chip damage and rely on her devastating advantage state. Meaning Greninja can focus on shurkien camping and maneouvering about until Bayonetta gives an opening.
I've said this before, but good projectiles in general give Bayonetta trouble.

See: WaDi vs CaptainZack - Shadow Ball always proves to be useful there. I know aura sphere is threatening to most characters in the game, and Bayo doesn't really have an answer to it. Sheik needles are still useful in the MU - would be godlike pre-patch...

Her own Bullet Climax is also useful...

Actually, it's one of the reasons I've always secretly wondered how Samus does against Bayo. Nothing strikes me as awful off the top of my head (with the exception of a large frame), and I can see quite a bit Bayonetta would find obnoxious.

That said, I'm nowhere near an expert on Samus, so if you guys have any thoughts...?
 

Y2Kay

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> Top 3 Greninja placings at Greninja Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> Top 3 Ryu placings at SCR Saga are 13th, 17th and 17th
> A Greninja and Ryu player from another country take a set off a top 2 Sheik at each event
> Public perception post-saga: Greninja is mediocre/Ryu is broken

kek

Passive-aggressive jokes aside, I wanted to talk about Salem's Greninja. Salem's style of Greninja is pretty much the missing piece of the puzzle that Greninja rep needed. Top 15 player fundamentals, grounded style (very important vs a lot of top tiers like Bayonetta, Diddy and Cloud!), lots of shuriken usage and good neutral play. Salem needs to work on less Substitute usage (spoiled from Witch Time a bit I guess) and less extensions in advantage but it looks very solid and with some more polishing and practice he could grow to be the best Greninja with the fundamentals he has. I think it will serve him very well in the Bayo ditto, though I don't know what other matchups he would use Gren over Bayo for. Could work in some more niche matchups like the PK kids I guess.
I feel like he was a little too reliant on water shuriken that match, but to be fair, it works very well in that match up. Speaking of fair I'd like to see him use that move more in his neutral play. I also felt like his movement can be better too (I think he shields a little too much). No of these "flaws" really wound't cost him much in the bayo match up though, so I would need a bigger sample size to amke a fair judgement on it. I think salem's neutral and understanding of Gren's normals is very good.

:150:
 

OverTime

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Best character in doubles.

I will not disagree with that at all. However, what are the rest of these results? What does going down to 8th look like?

Is it Melee Fox bad for how over centralized that characters makes doubles in melee?

Is it the same player or players?

Is doubles really on the decline like Zero said? Or is the lack of interest consistent as it has been similar to other games?

I'm open to discussion but pictures like that feel misleading.
This is Top 3 most beautiful replies to data I've seen in the whole time I've followed Smash.
 

Skeeter Mania

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To everyone criticizing my ideology of top players being criticized by less-skilled players:

I am not exactly saying that top players shouldn't be criticized. I was trying to say that they may find it dubious.
 

FeelMeUp

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To everyone criticizing my ideology of top players being criticized by less-skilled players:

I am not exactly saying that top players shouldn't be criticized. I was trying to say that they may find it dubious.
I can't speak for others, but I find it more annoying that you don't do anything but disparage top player criticism and ask 8 questions per page. Find other ways to contribute and this sort of opinion won't look as bad.
 

Myollnir

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I've said this before, but good projectiles in general give Bayonetta trouble.

See: WaDi vs CaptainZack - Shadow Ball always proves to be useful there. I know aura sphere is threatening to most characters in the game, and Bayo doesn't really have an answer to it. Sheik needles are still useful in the MU - would be godlike pre-patch...

Her own Bullet Climax is also useful...

Actually, it's one of the reasons I've always secretly wondered how Samus does against Bayo. Nothing strikes me as awful off the top of my head (with the exception of a large frame), and I can see quite a bit Bayonetta would find obnoxious.

That said, I'm nowhere near an expert on Samus, so if you guys have any thoughts...?
It's an absolute trash match-up for :4samus:.

Having a large frame against :4bayonetta: is a lot more important than you seem to think. Even if we don't take the combo factor into account, if you have a large frame, you're giving her the neutral game she lacks because of Bullet Climax.

If she doesn't have to approach to be threatening, she's godlike. And by being threatening, I mean dealing more than 0-5% with bullet arts and giving up stage control for that.

Bullet Climax deals a ton of damage. At mid to high %, it can even win you the neutral game by pushing the opponent to the ledge/offstage. If your character have an awful crouch, it's even worse (:4samus::4dedede::4ganondorf:).

On the other hand, Samus' projectiles really aren't scary, because they can be reacted to (although if she has a full CS ready, it can be scary at close range). Shooting a missile/baby CS can even allow :4bayonetta:to approach with Heel Slide to avoid it and deal a massive amount of damage. DownB? That's a free WTi.

The other zoning tool that :4samus: has is Z-air, but similarly to bullet arts, all Z-airs in the game can be WTimed from a distance.

A zoning character that can't effectively zone people and is even forced to approach doesn't work very well (see Smash 4 laserless :4falco:).

:4bayonetta:is weak to grabs because of her terrible spotdodge/rolls (bat within doesn't work on grabs) and the lack of safe, fast options (if you think WTw is safe then I have nothing to say to you), and her dash animation is terrible to retreat with a dash (because of her leg).
:4samus:has a poor grab, with a below average grab game [although tether grabs are good to punish her aerials on block in spite of the shieldpush if she used a special before], so she can't exploit that either.

Her disadvantage state is also subpar against disjoints, since her mix-ups really aren't effective, so she's prone to juggles against :4bayonetta: . Her recovery is pretty decent, though.

:4bayonetta: also can deal well with dash attack cross-ups (WTw OoS).
And :4samus:can't even really shine spark to steal a game.
She still has a good appoach thanks to dash attack, having a full CS ready can hard punish :4bayonetta: from a distance if she lands with landing lag, and :4samus: is one of the characters that can pressure :4bayonetta: when she's recovering.

That's +2 for :4bayonetta: in my book.
 

The-Technique

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I've said this before, but good projectiles in general give Bayonetta trouble.

See: WaDi vs CaptainZack - Shadow Ball always proves to be useful there. I know aura sphere is threatening to most characters in the game, and Bayo doesn't really have an answer to it. Sheik needles are still useful in the MU - would be godlike pre-patch...

Her own Bullet Climax is also useful...

Actually, it's one of the reasons I've always secretly wondered how Samus does against Bayo. Nothing strikes me as awful off the top of my head (with the exception of a large frame), and I can see quite a bit Bayonetta would find obnoxious.

That said, I'm nowhere near an expert on Samus, so if you guys have any thoughts...?
Icymist *hates* the Bayonetta matchup, IIRC from Nairo's sub tournaments, a lot of the time she has to switch to secondaries.
 

Heracr055

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May 27, 2015
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Since [RK] mentioned it, can we get some more insight on the M2/Bayo MU? M2 also has a large frame; what qualities allow M2 to fare better vs her compared to Samus?
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
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737
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Rock Hill, SC
Mewtwo has a threatening projectile that still of use even uncharged while Samus' only threatening projectile is Charge Shot when fully charged, Mewtwo has far better non projectile zoning tools that Samus, Mewtwo probably out damages Samus per average combo and strings and deal more knockback when it comes time to kill and while his grab isn't solid it's far better than Samus in addition to having one of the best kill throws in the game. Mewtwo is also much quicker than Samus on the ground and in the air so it's even easier for him to play zone.

When I picture Samus fighting Bayo I honestly can't see her having a safe way to kill aside tech chase charge shot. M2 suffers from the tall frame issue and is prone to earlier death from ladder combos sincea he's big and light but given his good attributes I see his life against Bayo as much less stressful

I'd also like to add I don't think a Cloud limit in dubs is a bad idea it could even lead to more strategic play. Think about Leo and Komo swapping in between Cloud and thier other characters as a method of mix up so the opponents have to keep adapting to the different style of Cloud for example.
 
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Kung Fu Treachery

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
78
I'm no Samus expert, but here are what I'd say are advantages M2 has over Samus against Bayo:
  • He's faster.
  • Does more damage off of stray hits, which you need to keep up with Bayo (Thank you F-air and your dumb 13% damage)
  • One of the best grounded pokes in the game in D-Tilt. F-air is Frame 6 and kills. In general, Mewtwo is tougher to get in on than most characters, even for Bayo.
  • Shadow Ball can be charged in the air. Full stored Charge Shot comes out sooner than full stored SB, but SB is faster when firing from the charging animation. Not sure if that matters; I just thought it was interesting.
  • Frame 2 invisible air dodge makes him slippery to track down, even though he is susceptible to Bayo combos with his big frame.
  • Similarly, Samus' recovery covers a lot of distance, but the disappearing and lack of hitbox on M2's Teleport make him difficult to edgeguard, whether by Witch Time or other means.
  • M2's grab isn't great, but it's better than Samus'. M2 has one of the best kill throws in Up throw, and he he can kill at the edge with Back throw.
  • He also has a command grab, though it's really only good as an aerial mix-up. Grounded Confusion is nearly always punishable on hit.
  • Footstool-Disable enables him to kill her early. In my opinion, this is a super important tool in the matchup, and if you can't do it (I can't, but I'm a dilettante), M2 is much less threatening.
As I said, I don't know much about Samus, but here are areas where she has M2 beat:
  • Charge Shot kills earlier than Shadow Ball.
  • She's heavier.
  • While M2 is tougher to open up, he also has no combo breaker; his earliest move is Frame 6 (F-air again). Samus' Screw Attack is intangible from Frame 3 and hits starting on Frame 5, though she is obviously vulnerable if she misses.
  • Better traction, so Up-B out of shield is probably more reliable than M2's shield grab.
I know Samus has combos, but I don't know a ton about them, so I'll leave talk of her conversions to the experts.
 
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