Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Heh, watched a bit of the Gungnir vs Earth match. Earth got ended by the Ganon Classic™. Flame Choke will Ganoncide you from deceptive ranges.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I fail to see how this is underperforming aside from Civil War.



That is, unless you count BEAST tournaments (namely BEAST 7).

I apologize in advance if I sound biased, but name me one Sheik that is winning tournaments as big as EVO 2015 and Genesis 3 with Sheik. Over there in Europe with Mr.R? Yeah, no contest, little to no players come close to his level of skill there, but in the US? Not even close.

Heh, watched a bit of the Gungnir vs Earth match. Earth got ended by the Ganon Classic™. Flame Choke will Ganoncide you from deceptive ranges.

One of the reasons I like over , he has that factor that, if you mess up, he'll end you when you least expect it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I apologize in advance if I sound biased, but name me one Sheik that is winning tournaments as big as EVO 2015 and Genesis 3 with Sheik. Over there in Europe with Mr.R? Yeah, no contest, little to no players come close to his level of skill there, but in the US? Not even close.

Already I see you missing the point.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Already I see you missing the point.

I see that is still undoubtedly one of the best characters in the game but to the point where she can win a major in the US? Not anymore.

 

[Laken64]

Completely writing off a top tier character especially one of the caliber of to win a major is insanity. Remember when people said the same about in the past? Guess what happened? She won two majors within one month one of them the most stacked tournament in smash 4 to date. Just because they haven't won majors doesn't mean they can't.

 

[|RK|]

Life is too short for you to be giving a flying **** about what other miserable humans say about you or who you play, top tier or otherwise.

Just saying.

You're not wrong. I guess I wanna get my fundamental skill up to a reasonable point first. Can't say your character is holding you back if you aren't even at the peak.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Completely writing off a top tier character especially one of the caliber of to win a major is insanity. Remember when people said the same about in the past? Guess what happened? She won two majors within one month one of them the most stacked tournament in smash 4 to date. Just because they haven't won majors doesn't mean they can't.

Once again I apologize in advance if I sound bias, but even pre-patch Sheik only kept winning majors because of one player, that player dropped her, has yet to see that same level of success.

 

[HoSmash4]

One thing to note is that at Supermajor level, it is not the character winning the matches - its the player winning it.

With that being said, Sheik definitely lacks the trump cards/raw smash attacks/killing pokes which is a clear weakness is the player vs player side of the game.

 

[OverTime]

With that being said, Sheik definitely lacks the trump cards/raw smash attacks/killing pokes which is a clear weakness is the player vs player side of the game.

That being said while she lacks the Kill power I have VoiD's Sheik at CEO Dreamland killing at an average of 111.4% so the kill power is still there. You're 100% right in that the raw kill power is such a huge factor to mentality. It's draining trying to kill as Sheik.

 

[Vyrnx]

I apologize in advance if I sound biased, but name me one Sheik that is winning tournaments as big as EVO 2015 and Genesis 3 with Sheik. Over there in Europe with Mr.R? Yeah, no contest, little to no players come close to his level of skill there, but in the US? Not even close

All that this says is that Sheik nerfs nerfed Sheik. Nobody else here is talking about Sheik across patches or tournaments from 16-24 months/DLC/banning of customs ago, they're talking about Sheik's results in the last six or so months. None of this is relevant or says anything about Sheik in the current meta.

 

[|RK|]

That being said while she lacks the Kill power I have VoiD's Sheik at CEO Dreamland killing at an average of 111.4% so the kill power is still there. You're 100% right in that the raw kill power is such a huge factor to mentality. It's draining trying to kill as Sheik.

In retrospect, does a mean kill percentage really mean that much? It feels like it's missing quite a bit of important context.

 

[Deleted member]

tfw we live in a meta where Ganon has gotten a notable result yet still hasn't after nearly two years.

 

[Rizen]

People keep bringing up 'why hasn't _________ won a supermajor?' and while it's not a bad way to judge a character, it shouldn't be the end-all. Consider that there are only so many supermajors and so many players who we expect to win them. It's hard for (insert lower top tier character here) to win when there are gatekeepers like Zero who uses Diddy and sometimes Lucina and Sheik. Fox for example is obviously top 10 but Larry usually gets in the lower top 8.

That's why Das Koopa's ranking thread is so important. You can look at the current scores and see:
Cloud: 362.5
Diddy Kong: 349
Bayonetta: 335.5
Sheik: 266.5
_______________
Sonic: 192.5
Fox: 183.5
Mario: 179
Rosalina & Luma: 151
Marth: 139.5
Zero Suit Samus: 137
Mewtwo: 131.5
Ryu: 116.5

The top 4 include Sheik and Bayo with a significant gap between them and the 5th place. They both have results. Mario is not dropping off at all, ZSS too. And Ryu has just shy of Mewtwo's results, make what you want of that.

Another thing to keep in mind when considering supermajors as deciding factors toward ranking is CF got 2nd and Link got 3rd at Civil war. It was a great showing for them but I'm not jumping on the 'Link is high tier' train just because that. Not even DK is considered high tier.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

tfw we live in a meta where Ganon has gotten a notable result yet still hasn't after nearly two years.

CloudY's 3rd place placement in Smash Factor Toluca says hi. Obviously 90 players doesn't compare to the 478 players of Umebura Japan Major, but saying he lacks noteworthy results is a bit of an overstretch.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

CloudY's 3rd place placement in Smash Factor Toluca says hi. Obviously 90 players doesn't compare to the 478 players of Umebura Japan Major, but saying he lacks noteworthy results is a bit of an overstretch.

Not to mention Hyper's wins against Fatality.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Not to mention Hyper's wins against Fatality.

Who is up on Fatality 4-3 this season. highest solo placing at a national was Low Tier City 4, Sethlon at 17th, but that was last year so that doesn't count, and also happens to be 's highest solo placing at 4th via Cosmos.

 

[Krysco]

For those that were wondering, I just tested G&W's uair windbox and it doesn't refresh moves it seems. Jab 1 does 3%~ fresh and 1.something when it's as stale as possible. Used jab 1 10 times on Falco then used uair on him 10 times, making sure to only hit him with the windbox and tried jab 1 again. Didn't do 3%. One thing I did learn from this little test though is that you can draw people in with the windbox, which I found odd. I had Falco on a platform the entire time and if I was facing him and used uair, he went away from G&W but if I faced away from him and used uair, he came towards him. Didn't know that.

Also, with the whole 'Sheik hasn't won a major since whenever' thing, I again ask about which characters have placed 2nd at majors. All characters that have done so were only a few games away from winning a major and did better than every other character(s) aside from the one(s) used to get first. Heck, the 2-3 most notable 2nd places that come to my mind are Megaman at EVO(?), Lucario at Frostbite and Captain Falcon at Civil War. None of which are considered top tier and I've seen claims before for all 3 of them to possibly be as low as mid tier. Don't recall if Frostbite was considered a major or not and I don't recall what patch we were on when Megaman got 2nd at whatever EVO it was but my point is, first place shouldn't be valued so highly. Overall having consistent high placings should be.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

For those that were wondering, I just tested G&W's uair windbox and it doesn't refresh moves it seems. Jab 1 does 3%~ fresh and 1.something when it's as stale as possible. Used jab 1 10 times on Falco then used uair on him 10 times, making sure to only hit him with the windbox and tried jab 1 again. Didn't do 3%. One thing I did learn from this little test though is that you can draw people in with the windbox, which I found odd. I had Falco on a platform the entire time and if I was facing him and used uair, he went away from G&W but if I faced away from him and used uair, he came towards him. Didn't know that.

Also, with the whole 'Sheik hasn't won a major since whenever' thing, I again ask about which characters have placed 2nd at majors. All characters that have done so were only a few games away from winning a major and did better than every other character(s) aside from the one(s) used to get first. Heck, the 2-3 most notable 2nd places that come to my mind are Megaman at EVO(?), Lucario at Frostbite and Captain Falcon at Civil War. None of which are considered top tier and I've seen claims before for all 3 of them to possibly be as low as mid tier. Don't recall if Frostbite was considered a major or not and I don't recall what patch we were on when Megaman got 2nd at whatever EVO it was but my point is, first place shouldn't be valued so highly. Overall having consistent high placings should be.

EVO 2016. Fatality can be inconsistent, Lucario is just Lucario and Kameme had struggle replicating his success with Mega Man after EVO, to the point he had to resort to maining Sheik and leaving Mega Man as a secondary.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/861312769278136320

Venia confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

 

[Krysco]

EVO 2016. Fatality can be inconsistent, Lucario is just Lucario and Kameme had struggle replicating his success with Mega Man after EVO, to the point he had to resort to maining Sheik and leaving Mega Man as a secondary.

Inconsistency is exactly why individual placings shouldn't be valued so highly. Each of those three characters were only a few games away with one opponent in the way from getting first. And even if they got first, we'd be able to look back and say that that was just 1 good placing. Compare that to Rosalina who was consistently getting top 8/16 thanks to the likes of Dabuz, Kirahira, Falln and others and yet there was a continuous mention of how Rosa was dropping off, may not even be top 10 or top tier yada yada because she hadn't won a major. Then she goes and wins 2 within a short time span with 2 different players. First place at any tournament of any size is great, especially if top level players and/or numerous players are there but it's not the end all be all for how great a character is.

Took Melee a while for Fox to be considered #1 and Sheik could be the same way. Conversely, it took Brawl a while for Snake to drop lower than #2 and Sheik could be like that too. Or she could just remain where she is as a top 4 character. All depends how things pan out in the future and with FeelMeUp mentioning things like Sheik possibly still having her uair 50/50 on certain characters at certain percents, and mentioning her increase in high results despite one of her best players not doing too well, I'm of the opinion that she's at least staying where she is, if not getting better, regardless of whether she's won a major or not.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/861312769278136320

Venia confirmed for 2GGC: Greninja Saga.

I hope he gets a better pool here than what he got in Civil War.

Inconsistency is exactly why individual placings shouldn't be valued so highly. Each of those three characters were only a few games away with one opponent in the way from getting first. And even if they got first, we'd be able to look back and say that that was just 1 good placing. Compare that to Rosalina who was consistently getting top 8/16 thanks to the likes of Dabuz, Kirahira, Falln and others and yet there was a continuous mention of how Rosa was dropping off, may not even be top 10 or top tier yada yada because she hadn't won a major. Then she goes and wins 2 within a short time span with 2 different players. First place at any tournament of any size is great, especially if top level players and/or numerous players are there but it's not the end all be all for how great a character is.

Took Melee a while for Fox to be considered #1 and Sheik could be the same way. Conversely, it took Brawl a while for Snake to drop lower than #2 and Sheik could be like that too. Or she could just remain where she is as a top 4 character. All depends how things pan out in the future and with FeelMeUp mentioning things like Sheik possibly still having her uair 50/50 on certain characters at certain percents, and mentioning her increase in high results despite one of her best players not doing too well, I'm of the opinion that she's at least staying where she is, if not getting better, regardless of whether she's won a major or not.

I think that for the time being, she is fine where she is. Btw, I also have Radiant Dawn.

 

[FeelMeUp]

yeah, speaking of that, didn't Fox not win a single major until...EVO 2013?
the "win something" metric is completely arbitrary and tends to be up to bracket luck(Dabuz at Civil War, Ally at EVO, etc)
to be able to win a major you have to be able to get through a certain 3-5 players that all individually shut down specific characters. Dabuz usually blocks all non-top tiers and non top 10 players, ZeRo blocks Bayo and Sheik, Anti blocks Sheiks, etc.

 

[ARISTOS]

Winning a major as a metric on top tier vs not top tier is not good given how few top level players there are and how often at that level MUs are more about player vs player than anything else.

Look at the long run

 

[Thinkaman]

I just hope that people wisely broadening their perspective past "just the #1 place in the entire world" keep going even a bit broader, to at least a modest 1% of the Smash community. (A benchmark that is well over 20,000 players)

 

[Nobie]

So I was looking at a couple of Street Fighter V matchup charts by commentator UltraDavid, and I think the format he uses would be very useful when trying to quickly summarize matchups in Smash 4.

The charts in question: https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/860253429213478912

You'll notice that there's not just a range between "disadvantage and advantage," but also a range between "volatility and consistency." Though not said outright what "volatility" means, I think it's pretty clear that this is the perfect description for characters like Ryu, Donkey Kong, and Lucario in many matchups. It also potentially solves an issue Shaya brought up a long time ago, which is that the nature of a matchup changes as the percents change. A more consistent character is arguably less affected by these fluctuations.

A lot of times, it feels like two people discussing will actually describe a matchup almost the exact same way, except one person will consider it a 6:4 and the other a 5:5 or 4:6. I think there's a chance many of these disputes would be resolved with this format, as I think it'd be easier to agree on "disadvantaged, but with high volatility."

 

[|RK|]

So I was looking at a couple of Street Fighter V matchup charts by commentator UltraDavid, and I think the format he uses would be very useful when trying to quickly summarize matchups in Smash 4.

The charts in question: https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/860253429213478912

You'll notice that there's not just a range between "disadvantage and advantage," but also a range between "volatility and consistency." Though not said outright what "volatility" means, I think it's pretty clear that this is the perfect description for characters like Ryu, Donkey Kong, and Lucario in many matchups. It also potentially solves an issue Shaya brought up a long time ago, which is that the nature of a matchup changes as the percents change. A more consistent character is arguably less affected by these fluctuations.

A lot of times, it feels like two people discussing will actually describe a matchup almost the exact same way, except one person will consider it a 6:4 and the other a 5:5 or 4:6. I think there's a chance many of these disputes would be resolved with this format, as I think it'd be easier to agree on "disadvantaged, but with high volatility."

Makes sense for Sheik vs Lucario. "Disadvantaged but volatile" sounds perfect (from Lucario's end).

 

[Thinkaman]

You'll notice that there's not just a range between "disadvantage and advantage," but also a range between "volatility and consistency." Though not said outright what "volatility" means, I think it's pretty clear that this is the perfect description for characters like Ryu, Donkey Kong, and Lucario in many matchups. It also potentially solves an issue Shaya brought up a long time ago, which is that the nature of a matchup changes as the percents change. A more consistent character is arguably less affected by these fluctuations.

A lot of times, it feels like two people discussing will actually describe a matchup almost the exact same way, except one person will consider it a 6:4 and the other a 5:5 or 4:6. I think there's a chance many of these disputes would be resolved with this format, as I think it'd be easier to agree on "disadvantaged, but with high volatility."

I like this, but to play devil's advocate, I feel like in practice this would just serve as a brainless disclaimer attached strictly to any matchup by a bad character with a low-% KO gimmick or aura.

Next thing Lucario has a list of virtually 57 "disadvantaged but with high volatility" matchups, and it's like "Whoa, I'm so glad we made this matchup chart; otherwise I never would have gotten this stunning insight into Lucario's matchups."

(Please don't reply with a lecture on Lucario's actual good matchups; that's not the point.)

 

[L9999]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEvm_6IO40g
Thankfully Earth VS Gungnir was recorded. There is also a comment from Vermanubis about Ganondorf that might be interesting:

"Ganon has the most bizarre position in the meta as far as I'm concerned. You can play really well against him, but if you don't know what to exploit in the MU, you can play really well and still lose. That's Earth's deal here I think. He played well, but Gungnir both outplayed him and took advantage of him not knowing the MU (getting Ganoncided, DIing in on a Dthrow next to the ledge). People seem to not take this seriously, but as it stands, Ganon is not a part of the top 16 meta. At this point in the meta, with Ganon still having little to no top-level rep at majors (Gungnir being the first afaik at one of this size), top players simply don't know how to play against Ganon. Once top Ganons start going to majors more, expect a lot of upsets like these. They'll happen, and they'll happen often. Ganon is not a good character, but he's a character that must be taken seriously. The fatal mistake people make is assuming the two are mutually exclusive."

 

[Bowserboy3]

I remember a week or so back I made a post about having some pretty good tools, and how I think he is "underrated" so to speak, but I got a lot of sh*t for it.

Hehe, thanks Gungnir!

 

[ismaaa]

this is a bit out of subject but hear is the opinion that samsora has about peach..
https://twitter.com/Samsora_/status/861285634333396996

 

[Luco]

Extra's definitely still showing Australia his character can compete (#2 on our PR only fully released today), so from our perspective there's more than meets the eye. I think a lot has already been said here but it's worth noting that G&W's dash dance allows him to play non-committal in a really powerful way, and whilst his grab is bad if someone knows a way to make toot toot not real then *please* tell me because I'm 0-3 against that guy wew.

All this while every Lucas main swears it's a lopsided MU in our favour, and I can tell there's so much I could be doing to lame this character out, especially past his usual kill %s. I know he's not great, but more dangerous than the peers he's placed with? I could see that, playing defensive is a funny game sometimes and G&W's damage output is very real.

Incidentally the full Aus PR is out now but in keeping spirit with the thread, go check the PR thread if you're interested.

 

[Nah]

I remember a week or so back I made a post about having some pretty good tools, and how I think he is "underrated" so to speak, but I got a lot of sh*t for it.

Hehe, thanks Gungnir!

I mean, just about every character in this game has good tools. Pretending that Ganondorf doesn't have good tools would be silly (Uair and Dash attack at the very least are very good, Ftilt sends you at a disgusting angle) for people to do. But there's more to being a good character or having reason to claim a character is underrated than just having a handful of good tools.

Nevermind that Vermanubis's comment isn't exclusive to Dorf either. This is Smash 4, no longer can you consistently go: "lol I'm and ur playing a mid tier, whatchoo gonna do now?". A lot of the cast can and will **** you up for not knowing the matchup and/or not taking them seriously. Gungnir outplayed Earth, who also didn't know anything about the Ganon MU? Well no **** Earth lost then. Would've happened regardless of Gungnir's character choice.

 

[MERPIS]

Completely writing off a top tier character especially one of the caliber of to win a major is insanity. Remember when people said the same about in the past? Guess what happened? She won two majors within one month one of them the most stacked tournament in smash 4 to date. Just because they haven't won majors doesn't mean they can't.

Well, Sheik still hasn't really won much in the past year. It's mostly been Diddy or Mario or Cloud. She's usually taken out in the top 8 or top 16 rarely.

 

[|RK|]

I like this, but to play devil's advocate, I feel like in practice this would just serve as a brainless disclaimer attached strictly to any matchup by a bad character with a low-% KO gimmick or aura.

Next thing Lucario has a list of virtually 57 "disadvantaged but with high volatility" matchups, and it's like "Whoa, I'm so glad we made this matchup chart; otherwise I never would have gotten this stunning insight into Lucario's matchups."

(Please don't reply with a lecture on Lucario's actual good matchups; that's not the point.)

Nah, I'd save volatile specifically for MUs like Lucario vs Sheik. The character should have all of the tools to take care of the opponent even with aura/rage, but then it becomes volatile because of human error.

Something like Lucario vs Sonic on the other hand wouldn't get the volatile description, considering aura is a more natural part of the match, and Sonic technically doesn't have as many tools to deal with it as Sheik does.

Lucario vs Mewtwo also wouldn't be volatile, I don't think. Or Lucario vs Cloud. Etc.

Basically, if things can spiral out of control for ba character that would otherwise dominate, I'd call it volatile. If that makes any sense.

 

[Rizen]

this is a bit out of subject but hear is the opinion that samsora has about peach..
https://twitter.com/Samsora_/status/861285634333396996

"Peach is top 15/16"
I like Captain Jett's comment:
"I feel like the "problem" with smash 4 is that 30 characters are top 15"

 

[MERPIS]

"Peach is top 15/16"
I like Captain Jett's comment:
"I feel like the "problem" with smash 4 is that 30 characters are top 15"

That's what happens when you balance a game to much, the tier list becomes less of a way to see who's better, and more of a "Who do we THINK is this good?" but there's always fights over that. Some people say VIllager is still top 15, some say he is around 17th. Some say Luggy is top 15 or right near top 12 or so, others argue that he isn't even top 20.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Nah, I'd save volatile specifically for MUs like Lucario vs Sheik. The character should have all of the tools to take care of the opponent even with aura/rage, but then it becomes volatile because of human error.

Something like Lucario vs Sonic on the other hand wouldn't get the volatile description, considering aura is a more natural part of the match, and Sonic technically doesn't have as many tools to deal with it as Sheik does.

Lucario vs Mewtwo also wouldn't be volatile, I don't think. Or Lucario vs Cloud. Etc.

Basically, if things can spiral out of control for ba character that would otherwise dominate, I'd call it volatile. If that makes any sense.

What other MUs would you deem as volatile? Perhaps Fox vs DK (Fox's favour, but also volatile) or Yoshi vs some characters like Diddy (at least from what I experience)?

 

[HoSmash4]

Volatile = Lucario dittos

 

[verbatim]

Fox vs DK is not a volatile matchup.

 

[blackghost]

Can we get a semi concrete definition for volatile please. It's getting thrown around a lot if there's a standard established we can debate matchup afterwards