Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Heracr055]

Almost no one puts Ryu in top tier, most people put him in high tier. There's no fully agreed upon tier list in the game, I can't just make it so that everyone agree with the tier I'm placing the character at.

I understand that, and that's fine. I just think we should follow the listings that are provided, even if we don't agree on them. It's just a minor nitpick that may not matter in a few months anyways

 

[Nu~]

For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:
:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)
:+1
:-1
:+1
:+1
:+1
:-1
:+1
:-1 or 0
:-2


And with High Tier:
:+1
:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)
:-1 or 0
:+2
:+1
:0
:-1
: Unwinnable (Just like any other Ditto)

And for the people who consider high tier, they are all +2.

So it's a total of +2 to +4 (+8 to +10 if you add all three of as well) aganist the top and high tiers in total.

That is really good

So yea, I have no idea where Mega Man having a bad matchup spread came from. He has a really good matchup spread. Not to mention he does really good aganist the lower tiers too (Can't think of any he doesn't beat except maybe and , although I might be forgetting someone).

The main problems are that he is really hard and tiring to play, and that he has low representation.

>posts his opinion of mega man's matchup spread as objective fact

Could you at least explain these?

 

[TDK]

Adapt in what way? What in your opinion makes Mega Man unable to do the same?

This statement really doesn't make any sense. What keeps Megaman from being unable to adapt? this applies that Megaman is some low tier character who has no tools and options for a player to even adapt and even then that logic doesn';t work. How does a character not have the ability to adapt? This is a player exclusive thing, the best players of characters always use their best tools to overcome their weaknesses no matter how major/minor they are. Why is Megaman exclusive in this case?

In my honest opinion I think Megaman is a lower end of the high tier or high mid(a place where I place Falcon,Lucario,Villiager). He has the tools to play at a higher level of play despite his weaknesses.

Sorry, I should have elaborated more.

Zoners, in my opinion, are only effective as zoners if they have a variety of ways to keep you out, and mix up how they can keep you out on the fly. Toon Link is able to do this due to the versatility of his various projectiles. Boomerang, for instance, can be thrown in around 6 different directions, acts as a combo tool, catches recoveries, and has a hitbox on the way back in, making being near boomerang dangerous as getting hit allows Tink to confirm off of it fairly easily. Additionally, because of the multitude of ways it can be thrown, that gives the boomerang a degree of unpredictability.

Mega Man's metal blade is actually quite similar to this, with a few key differences. It's able to be thrown in 8 different directions when thrown for the first time, and Mega Man can pick it up to carry it around and make being under mega man extremely dangerous, as one wrong move gets you footstooled. It's also an excellent combo tool out of Glide toss (Glide Toss metal blade > Bair, for instance). However, there are a few key differences that prevent the Metal Blade from being as versatile and effective as Tink's Boomerang.

- Unlike Boomerang, Metal Blade has to be thrown into the ground and then picked up to be a combo tool. This means that Mega Man has to throw the blade downwards, which takes a little time.
- Once picked up, Metal Blade only has four possible directions it can be thrown in, only two of which actually garner reward off of (to my knowledge, MMs can correct me on this).
- While holding a metal blade, Mega Man is unable to use any A moves without throwing it (And therefore having to spawn another one unless they throw it down), or Z-dropping the metal blade (IE no grounded lemons). This makes Mega Man fairly predictable, as in order to act again Mega has to throw/drop the metal blade, which usually results in him jumping around looking to get a Z-drop confirm.
- Other players can catch Metal Blade if they're quick enough (Which, granted, is fairly hard, but not impossible). You can't catch a boomerang.

Toon Link also has bombs, which are some of the best projectiles in the game (Not as good as Link's bombs, but still really good). They do carry some of the flaws of metal blade (The whole holding them on thing comes to mind), and function relatively similarly, but Toon Link's have several more applications that makes holding onto a bomb less penalizing:

- Toon Link can still use Boomerang (And arrows, but Tink's arrows are pretty bad) while holding onto bombs, allowing him to continue his zoning game while getting ready to plant a bomb.
- Toon Link's Bombs can aid his recovery situationally, though due to the large timer it's nowhere near as reliable as Link's.
- Toon Link can Z-drop a bomb right before hitting the ground, cancelling the Zair animation while also planting an unexploded bomb onto the ground, something that demands respect if the bomb is closer to exploding. Again, due to the longer timer, this is more of a Link thing than a Tink thing but it's probably something to be considered.

Generally speaking, Tink's projectiles have a greater deal of versatility to them than Mega Man's, which is why I said Tink will have an easier time adapting. The only real way Mega Man can adapt his zoning is by using Lemons more, and lemons, while still being solid, aren't really versatile and can't be used while holding a metal blade. Mega Man has to pick between holding the blade and hopping around or shooting pellets, while Toon Link can hold a bomb and continue zoning.

Another possible thing to note is that Tink has higher raw kill power, and better kill confirms, which are extremely important in this meta. Having a great Kill throw is always nice, too.

If I've messed anything up about Mega Man and especially Toon Link, please tell me. I'm afraid that all my time playing Link has made my toon Link knowledge run a little dry. Also, these are just my thoughts, and if I missed something please share.

Oh, and I dug up Kameme's most recent one: https://twitter.com/kameme8808/status/758532781248884738

Hard matchups on the top, easiest ones on the bottom.

...Yeah, Winter, I have no idea where you got those numbers from.

There's a V3 followup, where? I can never seem to find it

It's the top article on the front page >.>

 

[verbatim]

What about the Bayo MU . Salem has a pretty dominant record vs Sonic mains, and Zack too to a lesser extent.

Most of Sonic's approach options seem like easy bait for Witch Twist and Witch Time, Sonic also does not seem to like dealing with Bayo's large and lingering airiels which can hit him right out of his spin dashes when times right. Sonic also seems to be comboed and janked surprisingly easy too

Sonic can win t if he gets an early lead and goes full on Wrath style camping and lame play, but Bayo can also do the same to Sonic to a somewhat lesser degree

I don't know of any legitimate wins Zack (or Salem) have on the Japanese Sonic's.

KEN is positive on 9B and Ikep.

Zack has a bo3 set on 6WX, Salem has a more dominant record (iirc).


The players on the left are (arguably) a cut above those on the right.

Ideally KEN and Zack will end up playing at some point or another and we can get a good top level impression of the matchup, but until then things seem to generally have just come down to who the better player was, which is a big indicator of being "even" anyways.

 

[Illusion.]

There's a V3 followup, where? I can never seem to find it

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-tier-list-v3-followup.446782/

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I'm just going to give my two cents here. Some of these ratios are kinda weird...

:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)
I kinda agree with that. I'd like to think that it's even (Seriously, Charge Shot isn't good, but it punishes Bayo's Lanings really hard), but Mega Man gets comboed for days, and he has no real way around Witch Time... If your best pressure tools (read Crash Bomb & Leaf Shield) can be used against you through Witch Time, you are kind of screwed. Lemons do stop any kind of approach through, which is still nice.
:+1
Monkey Flip gets stuffed, Leaf Shield gimps, and Banana is only half relevant. Mega Man has an undeniable advantage here.
:-1
GetComboed4DayzTheMovie*ahem* ...Yeah, don't expect me to say anything on this MU. It just sucks. You can live for a while tho, which means more chances to get a cheesy kill.
:+1
Cloud's huge hitboxes can be a real pain to deal with, but considering how easy it can be to edgedguard Cloud, Mega Mand has a huge advantage. Lemons screw Cloud hard too, for some reason. Just beware of his gigantic BAir...
:+1
Sonic's Spin Dash heavy neutral is completely invalidated. He can still catch you with a Homing attack if you aren't careful, tho.
:+1
Now, this is a tricky MU. For no one really knows how to rate it, I'll leave it as even. Rosa can laugh at Mega Man's projectiles (and get free items if you commut to your Neutral B), but Mega Man can actually deal pretty well with Luma and a misused Grav. Pull can easily mean death, considering how strong Mega Man's UTilt & DSmash are. But then again, Luma is a pain.
:-1
Fox has the advantage of being fast and Combo Heavy. Do I really have to say more ? He can be edgeguarded without too much trouble, but you aren't going to catch him.
:+1
I would call it even, but I might have some slight bias... I think it's +1. ZSS has no real way through lemons, and killing her is just as hard as anyone else. You just have an easier time keeping her out without taking too many risks.
It doesn't mean that she isn't dangerous, don't worry.
:-1 or 0
This is definitely a -1. Mewtwo getting that slight speed buff made him just that more dangerous, and superior hitboxes coupled with a quick reflector, a chargeable projectile and extremely strong moves & grab game make him really fearsome. You just can't afford any mistakes, or you get UThrown.
:-2
I'll simplify it, but MewtwoXFox is here, and it isn't pretty. At least he wn't kill you too easily (avoiding his grabs & USmashes isn't too hard, but then he still has good mobility...)

And with High Tier:
:+1
I have dobst on this one. Even is how I'd rate it... Meta Knight might have "lost" his ladder combo, but he can still get you with pretty much all of his specials (since they go through weaker projectiles), and His Down B still hurts. I don't know, it might just be me, but I don't feel like has an advantage worthy of a +1 MU ratio.
:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)
Well +2 is possible here... Lemons negate more or less everything, and if Villager tries to approach, he eats an aerial...
:-1 or 0
This one is definitely a -1 or a -2. It's like Link, but worse because Tink is just way faster...
:+2
I ain't talking about him. Most people think Ryu is at a good disadvantage, and I don't have enough datat on him. Just make sure to keep him out and you should be fine... #DontGetHit
:+1
Nope, this is even. I mean, Greninja can get in without too much trouble and has good tools to rack up damage. On the other hand, if Greninja isn't careful, he can die pretty soon (but this isn't exacly relevant). it usually should end up in a war of attrition of some sort, with Greninja trying to get in with Water Shurikens without getting punished for it. At least that's how I remember it XD
:+1
Now this is worthy of a -1 MU. Y'all know Mega Man has trouble sealing stocks, and Lucario can abuse it lika a madman. Yes, you are supposed to be careful of the way you deal him damage, but Mega Man can't really edgeguard Lucario properly...If he decides to overshoot you, there's nothing you can do about it...
:-1
Yup, -1. Combo characters should always have a field day against Mega Man (Except Weegee because reasons )
: Unwinnable (Just like any other Ditto)
Don't you dare diss my favorite MU

And for the people who consider high tier, they are all +2.
This is wrong, if you ask me. All of them are at least even, if not -1 for the 1st two. Marth & Corrin have the range needed to invade Mega Man's confort zone, and there's only so much space for you to retreat. They force you to play a near perfect spacing game, and it can be really exhausting.

Btw, for Mega Man (and probably other characters as well), a +1 is ONLY a slight advantage. it means that a MU is still volatile, but that it tend to favor a particular character. And Mega Man is one of the characters that is extremely vulnerable to timeouts, for he has no real way of recovering from a stock deficit if his opponent doesn't approach him.

I can try to gather my thoughts on the MUs later, but for now that's what I've got.

Edit : Kameme's list is actually pretty accurate. just replace the ratios with +2s to -2s.

 

[TDK]

Pit is not a hard character to play. He has good spacing tools, multiple jumps to mixup landings/recoveries, easy bread and butter combo's, a kill throw, a projectile, good disjoints, and top tier smash attacks. I would argue that he's the most convential character in the game, which isn't a very controversial claim imo.

There's Mentally draining in the sense of being very difficult to play, such as Marth or Rosalina (And others, those are just the first to come to my head.).

Then, there's Mentally draining because you get very little reward for anything you do so you need to play at 150% every single match, which is extremely exhausting.

The second one is what he meant.

 

[DanGR]

Cant Rosalina cripple MM's neutral game woth gravitational pull?

I don't care much to discuss the matchup overall, but do you realize how long the cooldown on GP is compared to <insert most usable projectiles here>?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu's bottom of top in this current version of the tier list. Can we keep personal feelings of where a character belongs on the tier list out of ranking the MU's for the character you're arguing for? It'll confuse and mislead IMO

Edit: The MM MU is very tough for Ryu, though. Lemons make it difficult to even breach his zone

I am nitpicking but who gives a **** what tier he put a character in?

Step out of your feelings dawg, please.

 

[Vyrnx]

He won a set with Cloud that may not have been recorded, he talks about it in one of his interviews after winning the Invitational.

They played two sets at Tokaigi and both were recorded. Nairo's Cloud lost GF1 0-3, lost the first game of GF2, and his ZSS won three. The only other time they played was at Umebura SAT where Nairo lost a set with ZSS 0-3.

edit: oops, they played at the qualifier. My bad

 

[Appledees]

If I've messed anything up about Mega Man and especially Toon Link, please tell me. I'm afraid that all my time playing Link has made my toon Link knowledge run a little dry. Also, these are just my thoughts, and if I missed something please share.

I don't know anything about Toon Link or Link for that matter and I will not pretend I know anything two cause I have no experience in playing outside of messing around on FG with my basic fundamentals with them.

I will however, not like the fact that you apparently simplified Megaman's playstyle to just lemons and metal blade while ignoring his other options such Crash Bomb and Leaf Shield in an attempt to compare to Toon Link despite them playing so differently its really hard to actually compare the two despite being in the same archetype.

Also that mu chart is really bad and too optimistic. Realistic Megaman would have more even and losing mus with the top/high tiers than winning.

If I had to make any mu chart with the high/top tiers it would realistic be around this

-1:

+1:

0:

Like the characters who beat megaman are characters that have many options to get around Megaman's zoning with lemons and other projectiles due to their options like projectiles like shadow ball,needles or and just really strong overwhelming advantage that makes megaman unable to get back footing. Its even worse with characters like Fox for example.

The characters that I find even are characters that have to commit more against Megaman to actually take advantage against him which is harder for some characters like Diddy and Sonic which could lend towards slightly losing but its heavily dependent on the stage itself. Then there are characters like Rosa,Cloud and Lucario which are matches that are honestly really volatile especially with Lucario in which Megaman's flaw of ending stocks really shows up despite the fact that Megaman really does well in the neutral against Lucario before Rage/Aura kicks in in which Aura sphere becomes a huge issue.

anyway Megaman sucks use Bayo

 

[David Viran]

They played two sets at Tokaigi and both were recorded. Nairo's Cloud lost GF1 0-3, lost the first game of GF2, and his ZSS won three. The only other time they played was at Umebura SAT where Nairo lost with ZSS.

They played at the tokagi qualifier before tokagi and nairo won wfs with zss. In GFs, he was down 2-0 with zss and almost reverse 3-0d him with cloud. He then won GF set 2, 3-1, with cloud. His cloud got man handled at tokagi after tho.

 

[verbatim]

There's Mentally draining in the sense of being very difficult to play, such as Marth or Rosalina (And others, those are just the first to come to my head.).

Then, there's Mentally draining because you get very little reward for anything you do so you need to play at 150% every single match, which is extremely exhausting.

The second one is what he meant.

Having to play every part of the game doesn't make a character difficult to play, although being able to do parts of the game easily can contribute to a character being "easy" to play in multiple bracket matches.

Sheik has a very easy disadvantage state (escaping) and very good/one-dimensional ledge trapping (lingering nair), that doesn't make her an easy character.

I would also argue that Marcina are easy to play, and that the extended effort to land specific tippers as Marth isn't something that people are thinking of every second while playing, it's just reflected in particular habits and spacing.

Rosalina has a lot of competitive depth, especially in how much you can make out of Luma, but her throw combo's, up air extensions, killing ability, and tech chases are fairly easy. You have to mix up your landings and recovery, but nothing particularly hard.


Characters that are exausting to play generally take a very long way to kill and have to consistently land mixups or tech chases to get basic combo's. They generally also have really bad smash attacks (an extension of taking a long time to kill), which Pit and especially Rosalina do not have, are lightweight, die early, and their extended combo's are "required knowledge" because they can't easily find kills without them.


imo (non-inclusive) list of characters that are exausting to play in consecutive bracket matches

DHD/low tier zoners
Sheik (definition incarnate)
Sonic
Greninja
Pikachu
Peach/Ryu (annoying inputs)
Metaknight(ish)
Wario


Characters that are less taxing to play in consecutive bracket matches generally have strong options that work in many different situations, bread and butter combos, and can kill off of a throw, a grab confirm, an aerial, a smash attack, or an OOS option that's relatively safe to fish for...

Corrin
Cloud
Falcondorf
Heavies in general
Marcina
Ness
Palutena
ROB
Robin
Rosalina
Yoshi
Other sword characters
etc

 

[Heracr055]

I am nitpicking but who gives a **** what tier he put a character in?

Step out of your feelings dawg, please.

Hi EL.
As I noted on my ealier post, it's just a minor nitpick. I just think that if someone who doesn't check the thread often and sees that placing as if it's fact, then it might affect perception surrounding the character.
Since we're both just nitpicking, how about we just move on?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

imo (non-inclusive) list of characters that are exausting to play in consecutive bracket matches

DHD/low tier zoners
Sheik (definition incarnate)
Sonic
Greninja
Pikachu
Peach/Ryu (annoying inputs)
Metaknight(ish)
Wario

I would also add Pac-Man.

 

[my_T]

I swear people want some of these characters to do everything under the sun. People really need to accept and play their characters according to their strengths. Obviously for the sake of balance we can't have characters like MM, Sheik, or Sonic running around with powerful and reliable kill options.

Characters like Sheik and Sonic have a better neutral and disadvantage state than most the roster. This makes up for their weak/unreliable kill options. It's very likely that you'll live well past 100% against these characters but this doesn't matter much in most MU's because their neutral is so good that they will win neutral most of the time and at times where they lose neutral their great disadvantage states make it difficult to maintain an advantage against them.

MM is a different case. Great neutral but an OK disadvantage. MM's kill options aren't the most reliable either but unlike Sheik and Sonic, MM has a ton of kill power. Certain punishes or reads from MM could end your stock well below 100%.

There is also edgeguards which they're all pretty good at, especially MM and Sheik so they all can potentially close out stocks early or rack up damage with successful edgeguards.

Point is, don't try to go for hard reads, don't be greedy in advantage, and don't do something crazy with high risk. Play it safe and patient and go for things that are guaranteed or low risk because that's where their strengths lie.

Players that do this well IMO are KEN and Zero. If you look at KEN's sets you'll notice that his opponents almost always live well past 100% each stock. KEN just plays a safe and low committal neutral until the opponent eventually loses their stock due to their damage being so high. He wins a lot with this playstyle so I don't see why characters with similar strengths can't do the same.

Zero's Sheik is another good example. He's not afraid to camp and/or play keep away with this character and he tends to be the most successful against the 'U hurt bad when I touch u characters' that people seem to be so salty about lately. People criticized Zero's Sheik for being so "lame" but at the end of the day it gets the job done.

 

[Nu~]

I would also add Pac-Man.

He fits into the "low tier zoners" category

 

[blackghost]

Zero's Sheik is another good example. He's not afraid to camp and/or play keep away with this character and he tends to be the most successful against the 'U hurt bad when I touch u characters' that people seem to be so salty about lately. People criticized Zero's Sheik for being so "lame" but at the end of the day it gets the job done.

You shouldn't use zero shiek as an example for this. Zero didn't use all of shiek he played a shiek that relied on the now removed 50 50 setup. Zero dropped shiek when she no longer had that tactic. Don't think zero shiek helps your point.

Also when are we going to get to the point of acting like elegant's success against bayo is something only he can accomplish. Study his play and imitate it. He isn't the only one that can counter play that well.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

Mega Man is (or rather was) respected too much. Problem back then was that's exactly what he wants. He preys hard on matchup inexperience. Counterplay was developed way too quickly after Kameme's breakout moment at EVO and in a meta like Smash 4 he comes across as one of the characters that has an incredibly explicit ceiling. To be honest, if his BAir wasn't as good as it is, I'd kind of expect him to be a whole tier lower.

This MU inexperience call out is unfair and insulting to anyone who plays characters that are not meta/common, for many reasons.

Firstly, MU inexperience is not the only reason players lose to rarer/unfamiliar characters, nor is it the only reason players of those characters win. There are tons of factors that determine sets and saying Megaman preys on MU inexperience is ignorant. In fact, Megaman can win despite the opponent knowing the MU. Scatt and I won 100+ entrant tournaments just a few days ago, having battled and won against people we've played many times, as well as players who have done their homework on the MU or have experience in the MU otherwise; there are plenty of Megamen that continue to win and do the same.

Is it not players' jobs to understand and study how to fight against other characters? If you don't know how to fight against a certain character and then lose to said character in tourney, that's your fault. The game's been available to the public since the demo came out on 3DS, which featured Megaman on it. It's been more than 2.5 years since, but people still throw out the MU inexperience card about him and other characters. Kameme's run at EVO wasn't out of the blue; he had been putting in work in Japan for some months before EVO, using the same tactics he would later use at EVO all the while. It's common to see people take notice of one's unfamiliarity with a MU but not praise the other player for knowing the MU from their side. What if Kameme didn't know the Sheik MU? He didn't get 2nd place riding solely off of other players' MU inexperience.

You can't say Megaman, or any character for that matter, gets most of their success through the opponents' inexperience. Counterplay is developed for strong characters usually only after they've done well in tourney, which is the problem. This concept of not preparing for a tornado and then shrugging after getting blown back, because "I didn't know what a tornado could do," holds players back.

IMO, Megaman is indicative of a high tier character because he still blows people back even after they are prepared. His zoning is fluid and oppressive. Pellets present an inherent problem for everyone in the cast and his MU spread is almost entirely dictated simply by how well you can deal with pellets. Megaman then has other kinds of control with Metal Blade and his disjointed aerials such as Uair and Bair to cover options that beat pellets. Characters that have more options tend to have higher ceilings. Because of Megaman's dynamic zoning, he has a great MU spread and the ability to adapt and provide answers for almost all situations, as well as establish threats that the opponent must have answers for.

TLDR: quit referring to MU inexperience as if it were an affliction and not the fault of the player; it's the jimmiest john of all time. Also, Megaman is a good character but not seen much in the meta because he is weird and hard to play.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I swear people want some of these characters to do everything under the sun. People really need to accept and play their characters according to their strengths. Obviously for the sake of balance we can't have characters like MM, Sheik, or Sonic running around with powerful and reliable kill options.

Nothing wrong of characters that can do it all, as long as they're designed correctly (designed correctly, they're the most amazing characters ever).

 

[my_T]

You shouldn't use zero shiek as an example for this. Zero didn't use all of shiek he played a shiek that relied on the now removed 50 50 setup. Zero dropped shiek when she no longer had that tactic. Don't think zero shiek helps your point.

Also when are we going to get to the point of acting like elegant's success against bayo is something only he can accomplish. Study his play and imitate it. He isn't the only one that can counter play that well.

Yes it does. I wasn't talking about pre-patch Sheik. Zero still uses Sheik in a few MU's and he still plays her the same way with the exception of how he closes out stocks; he tends to go for edgeguards most of the time. Overall, even though we don't see much of it, Zeros Sheik is still a good example of playing a character to their strengths and minimizing the chances for the opponent to exploit their weaknesses.

 

[my_T]

Nothing wrong of characters that can do it all, as long as they're designed correctly (designed correctly, they're the most BROKEN characters ever).

You seem to have had a typo, fixed it for ya

Jokes aside, if you don't mind a character not having weaknesses then have fun, but from a balance perspective I don't think you can design a character correctly without making them weak in at least one department. Although, if every character were broken then technically every character would be balanced. Guess it depends on which approach the developers choose to take.

 

[Deleted member]

I swear whenever a character has a slight lull in results people are so quick to jump on the "X character sucked this whole time" train.

It's happened many times with , now look where we are.

 

[NotLiquid]

This MU inexperience call out is unfair and insulting to anyone who plays characters that are not meta/common, for many reasons.

Firstly, MU inexperience is not the only reason players lose to rarer/unfamiliar characters, nor is it the only reason players of those characters win. There are tons of factors that determine sets and saying Megaman preys on MU inexperience is ignorant. In fact, Megaman can win despite the opponent knowing the MU. Scatt and I won 100+ entrant tournaments just a few days ago, having battled and won against people we've played many times, as well as players who have done their homework on the MU or have experience in the MU otherwise; there are plenty of Megamen that continue to win and do the same.

Is it not players' jobs to understand and study how to fight against other characters? If you don't know how to fight against a certain character and then lose to said character in tourney, that's your fault. The game's been available to the public since the demo came out on 3DS, which featured Megaman on it. It's been more than 2.5 years since, but people still throw out the MU inexperience card about him and other characters. Kameme's run at EVO wasn't out of the blue; he had been putting in work in Japan for some months before EVO, using the same tactics he would later use at EVO all the while. It's common to see people take notice of one's unfamiliarity with a MU but not praise the other player for knowing the MU from their side. What if Kameme didn't know the Sheik MU? He didn't get 2nd place riding solely off of other players' MU inexperience.

You can't say Megaman, or any character for that matter, gets most of their success through the opponents' inexperience. Counterplay is developed for strong characters usually only after they've done well in tourney, which is the problem. This concept of not preparing for a tornado and then shrugging after getting blown back, because "I didn't know what a tornado could do," holds players back.

IMO, Megaman is indicative of a high tier character because he still blows people back even after they are prepared. His zoning is fluid and oppressive. Pellets present an inherent problem for everyone in the cast and his MU spread is almost entirely dictated simply by how well you can deal with pellets. Megaman then has other kinds of control with Metal Blade and his disjointed aerials such as Uair and Bair to cover options that beat pellets. Characters that have more options tend to have higher ceilings. Because of Megaman's dynamic zoning, he has a great MU spread and the ability to adapt and provide answers for almost all situations, as well as establish threats that the opponent must have answers for.

TLDR: quit referring to MU inexperience as if it were an affliction and not the fault of the player; it's the jimmiest john of all time. Also, Megaman is a good character but not seen much in the meta because he is weird and hard to play.

I didn't say it was the only or even main reason, but Mega Man's drop off and Kameme's increased skepticism about his usability at a much higher level suggests heavily that there's a perceived ceiling to him that people hadn't caught up to yet when EVO rolled around. When I say preying on matchup inexperience I meant it in the sense that he benefits an incredible amount from characters playing it slightly safer at a mid-range and saying Mega Man hasn't had a massive a pool of highly skilled players to make the matchup knowledge ubiquitous among hundreds of players prior to EVO isn't exactly an outlandish statement. Considering I try maining characters like Samus and Peach in my free time I think you assume a little too much about my opinion on people who do main less prevalent characters that try making them work. Apologies if I gave a different impression through erroneous wording and I take it back if so, but I can't say I particularly take kindly to the highly loaded retort.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The sentiment is respectable, Peabnut Bubber , but you and I both know that'll never happen.
Just look at Melee.
Most of the top players have matchups they suck at and would(often do) get rocked in. Regardless of how common those characters may be.
Leffen with Samus, Ice with Falco, M2K with ICs, Armada with Falcon, etc. Continues happens despite the game being out for ~15 years and only needing to know about ~8-10 matchups.
Although Smash 4 has more reasonable online and a higher concentration of good players to get said experience with, you still need to know 3-4x as many matchups depending on your character.
Inexperience will be one of the biggest johns/reasons for losses until the end of time.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is Greninja really mentally taxing to play? I feel he may be mentally taxing to learn, but unless dropping footstool combos stresses you out nothing seems to be unordinally worrisome about playing him in bracket.

 

[C0rvus]

Any character with a lousy Diddy matchup is mentally taxing to play in bracket, at least here where I live. Diddy is everywhere, man. No thanks.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Just saying, every character likes MU inexperience. That doesn't make Low Tiers make waves at big tournaments... And Mid Tier or higher characters don't really benefit from that. So it's a bad argument anyway...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm, as someone who does well initially but gets trashed later I will say that MU inexperience is a factor regardless of who you play.
The phrase 'know the MU' has been done to death all over the smashboards.
However, even if you have a rudimentary understanding of the character it doesn't always mean you'll do well.
There are so many characters that get mixed in along with the top and high tiers that it's pretty much impossible to familiarize yourself with every single character, all of their options, and what they excel at, what they're ok at and what they're bad at though you can fling a general guess.

 

[verbatim]

Is Greninja really mentally taxing to play? I feel he may be mentally taxing to learn, but unless dropping footstool combos stresses you out nothing seems to be unordinally worrisome about playing him in bracket.

I probably know the least about Greninja of the character's I put on there, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd opine that his range of movement/timing is a bit more strinct than the average character, kind of like Fox. You can pick most top tiers in this game and do reasonably well without knowing much about their fox trot lengths, fall speeds, .

As an aside, Greninja (also Fox, hey?) is probably the character with the most practical footstool options (mainly nair --> fs --> dair). Whether or not that, or perfect pivot up tilt for that matter, translates into them being required knowledge to play the character competitively is a hard question to answer.


If I rewrote my original post they'd probably be in their own seperate category, since neither struggle to kill.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Separately, I'm watching ZeRo's KTAR interview, and evidently not only did Mr. E say that he thinks Lucina might be better that Marth, but Leo said he might agree.

Again, failing to see how this is the case. Didn't want to dig into this topic too much as of late, but I need to speak my mind here.

What is true though, is that playing Lucina in neutral is often easier due to how her hitboxes work compared to Marth, meaning she can make an extra mistake or two often than not. This might give the impression to Mr. E that Lucina could be better, especially with that aggressive playstyle of his.

However, this is just one side of it. On the flipside, Marth's reward for winning neutral/capitalising off of winning neutral is more often than not better.

I can give an example; a simple example of winning neutral would be landing that awesome Jab 1, as landing this move will convert into another move for them. Let's consider the opponent is at 90% closer to one of the sides of the stage when they land this jab. Jab 1 can convert into a Fair or even Ftilt easily. Lucina doing this will just get her some raw damage, as they will not KO. Marth, on the other hand can easily tipper these moves (if only because Jab 1 pushes the opponent into the tipper ranges for both these moves), and if tippered, it will more than likely KO.

Even things like Marth punishing with Dancing Blade at higher percentages is often more rewarding for Marth, as we know Marth has certain variations he can use to almost always land a tipper on the final strike. Marth getting this tipper will mean he can KO at percentages as low as 70%. Lucina's won't KO until around 100% in the same conditions, and due to how her hitboxes work (no sourspot, so more damage and knockback), it means that when her Dancing Blade can KO, it will almost always not connect correctly, when interestingly, Marth's could still with the correct timing, thanks to his sourspots. We can even consider that Marth can get a Dancing Blade from his Jab 1, so even at lower percentages, things like this can happen that Lucina could only dream of: https://youtu.be/KiSv9ovTPus?t=192 (and no, it's not something that happens by mistake; it happens again in the same set: https://youtu.be/KiSv9ovTPus?t=299).

I can go on and find multiple examples of Marth's overall stronger reward for winning neutral, but even in the same match, there are examples, like this: https://youtu.be/KiSv9ovTPus?t=38.

Even in certain MU's it's much more noticeable too. I play Rosalina, and I can say now that playing against Lucina in neutral is noticeably different, in the fact that she does seem to have an easier time applying the pressure on Luma (this isn't to say Marth is bad at it, no no no, but more, let's say, for every 5 attacks that hit Luma, 4 may KO Luma as Lucina, where as just 3 might as Marth, again due to how hitboxes work). However, even using just the above examples of neutral and easy punishes, I can tell you now that I die much earlier on almost all occasions against a Marth due to his ability to capitalise off of winning neutral (it also helps that Rosalina is very light, only emphasising this point further).

So in short, I can see Lucina being better than Marth during certain situations. Better than him as a whole though? Absolutely not.

---

Right, in an attempt to steer off of this muddy topic a bit, I want to say first that I appreciate everyone's opinions on Mega Man; thank you to all. Very helpful to me. It was pretty much what I thought; a character that is good, but given too much respect in general.

I said there were more characters I wanted to get an opinion on, so I'll use this as a point to divert attention from Marth/Lucina a bit.

The next character I was interested in getting some community opinion on was . I've become quite optimistic of Peach lately. Performances from Samsora have been on the rise also, which is good.

What do we all think of Peach?

Also, can anybody link me to Salem's YT channel? Apparently he has a good Samus guide on there.

 

[Doc Mario]

Damn Doc, so far every new tier list he drops 3 spaces down lol, He's still not THAT bad though......Unless you compare him to Mario I guess.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As far as Marth and Lucina are concerned, they have the same meta but get different mileage out of different aspects.

Marth theoretically will get more out of ledge trap scenarios, while Lucina would get more out of landing traps.

I would say that aspect alone will make Marth far more consistent since some characters just cannot be land trapped consistently, while every character can be ledge trapped to an extent except maybe Bayo I suppose. Consistency isn't just about damage. It's about being consistent in your actual WIN CONDITION. Yah know the conditions in which a character wins games. That's important right? I mean I think it is since Marth has won some large tournaments. idk maybe I'm crazy.

BTW the reason I mention ledge traps, relates directly to the argument, "You will not land tippers all the time."

Well yeah duh. Getting tippers isn't just about fishing in neutral though fam. It's about creating scenarios where the tipper is basically guaranteed if your opponent guesses wrong. A tipper ftilt at the ledge when the opponent is at 100% or more is usually a stock.

Just food for thought.

 

[pichuplayer]

I feel like Peach will stay a low high tier if Samsora keeps up the good work a top 25 character rn but possible top 20, maybe? I would doubt it but I think she could break top 20 in time

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tell me how Peach consistently stops Cloud, Marth and MK.

Then we can talk about her rising.

Oh, she can't?

Exactly.

 

[sups48]

>posts his opinion of mega man's matchup spread as objective fact

Could you at least explain these?

i can speak for all of them but , at top level mega man has the winning record vs cloud.

He beats sonic because not only can he pellet and stop him in his tracks he can stuff out his grounded approach and force him in the air. Also if sonic wants to run away he can force his approach with crash bombs or catch his jumps with up air.

Toon link 50/50 we've only really seen the match once and that went to game 5.

Mewtwo dies to early not to be even which solves mega man biggest problem killing and him have such a big body make him easy to pellet.

 

[|RK|]

Bowserboy3 Thing is, you're comparing feature for feature. But frankly, having watched ZeRo's Lucina, I think I understand that Lucina doesn't necessarily want to use the same moves as Marth in the same situations. Whereas you see Leo ending stocks on the ledge early with dancing blade, ZeRo ends stocks at the same percent (or earlier) with a simple fsmash or PP fsmash.

https://youtu.be/Ojry6Q0SzXY&t=4m33s

Basically, the last two stocks there as an example. I think what Gunblade and Pierce talk about after that stock is equally important.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 Thing is, you're comparing feature for feature. But frankly, having watched ZeRo's Lucina, I think I understand that Lucina doesn't necessarily want to use the same moves as Marth in the same situations. Whereas you see Leo ending stocks on the ledge early with dancing blade, ZeRo ends stocks at the same percent (or earlier) with a simple fsmash or PP fsmash.

https://youtu.be/Ojry6Q0SzXY&t=4m33s

Basically, the last two stocks there as an example. I think what Gunblade and Pierce talk about after that stock is equally important.

I mean, to be fair, it's hardly "feature to feature" when both characters are fundamentally the same. Whether or not it came across that way or not, it was not intended to. I'll attempt to explain my point better here...

In short, Marth's moveset is centred around his ability to hit tippers; by this, I mean he has moves, staple to his success and kit (Jab and Dancing Blade), that are designed for use in neutral and punishes, and that are intended to set up and allow for easy tippers and KO's. Lucina has the same moves as Marth, but lacks the raw reward from these setups (I think Emblem Lord's recent post about the pair is also as notable if not more notable than what I am attempting to convey here actually, so I'll support what he said there).

Of course her raw punishes with Smashes are much better than Marth's (on most occasions; KO'ing somebody at 35% with tipper Fsmash because they chose the wrong getup option or chose the wrong recovery option after being trumped is kind of dumb), though this is nothing new whatsoever; we've always known this. The point I am getting at is that yes, while Lucina might not need to use the same moves as Marth to get the KO as he does, because she's fundamentally the same as him, it's not in her design to actually play different from him; she'll still be playing neutral almost identically, for example. When the opponent is at 80%, even though it can KO, Lucina isn't going to go around using her Fsmash in neutral, or to "space", because it's just not within their design to do that. She's still going to be going around spacing out the opponent like Marth will be, looking for that opening for an easy Jab or Dancing Blade for example. The difference here is that Marth can potentially KO from these confirms.

So yes, Lucina could hit the opponent at 80% and KO with an Fsmash, but Marth could use Dancing Blade and KO at the exact same percent (provided it tippers), and he can safely attempt to set up into his KO and not with a randy Fsmash or read attempt. It's more more a "I'll throw this out and hope it hits" situation. Damn good if it does hit mind; I certainly can't downplay that, but my point is that it's not practical, especially when you consider exactly how punishable the same move is. The point I was basically getting at is that Marth has easy and reliable confirms into his KO moves, Lucina does not (Yes, Nair 1 to Fsmash is a thing, but it's telegraphed, strict and heavily punishable by shield; Marth has the same but he can stutter step backwards into a tipper Fsmash, but we don't see Marth players going for this do we?).

Now this transitions back into one of my original points about Mr. E's playstyle. Mr. E is by far the most aggressive of the 4 notable Marth mains out there. I will admit that in recent times he has taken a few notes from Leo and is playing a little more patient/defensive, though it doesn't seem to be working as well, which might explain his recent thoughts about Lucina. Him playing his aggressive, up close playstyle might transition better into Lucina, because him pounding away at the opponent and using the Fsmash when the opponent goes into him for a punish might reap him more noticeable rewards (even if it is a playstyle that when put into context with the rest of their kit, is easily beaten by shield, though this is when we can start applying Shield Breaker mixups into the equation, but that's a whole other ball game).

Their kit essentially has many areas designed to set up for tipper rewards. That was my point. If Jab 1 to Fsmash was actually a true combo at said percents, then we might be talking about a whole different story, but it isn't; nowhere near true unfortunately, so she'll still be looking for the bread and butter stuff like Marth.

(and as a TL:DR to you personally |RK| , I appreciate the reply; good to get some non heated discussion going).

---
Though it's still barmy to me that players are actually taking Lucina seriously now! All it took was for a few top players to use her and low and behold, people suddenly like her.

 

[TDK]

I'm kinda not sure about Peach (Definitely lower end of high tier), so I'll just leave Samsora's MU chart here:

https://twitter.com/Samsora_/status/849371774173294594

 

[FamilyTeam]

I am just going to ahead and mention that, on a ledge situation, there's a specific range where Lucina can stay where she can very safely cover most ledge options (more or less 2 whole away from the ledge).
In that range:

• FSmash alone is gonna cover Regular Get up (2-frame), Attack and Roll;
• Up Smash, Up Tilt and FTilt also cover Roll, and FTilt can also cover Attack and Regular;
• Fullhop Nair/Fullhop RAR Bair covers Jump (which, high percentages, you can very easily condition someone into doing that because of how much FSmash covers and how early it can kill);
• As for drop down-jump back, well, that depends like it depends for every character.

I've been using this and it's very good. Learning to consistently hit 2 frames on Regular Get up is not hard if you dedicate, like, some 20 hours of your time to getting it consistently on all the different Top 15 characters.
Also, since Dancing Blade was mentioned: I'd also like to say Lucina's Dancing Blade also can kill better than you all think it does. But people need to learn to escape that move, anyway. Extremely often I see Marth/Lucina hit the first, third and last hit but not the second, even though you have a small eternity to escape the move if the second strike misses.