Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

sups48 · Apr 4, 2017

FeelMeUp said:
Not quite the case either.
Tweek's just better than all of them. As a player.
This is fairly common. ZeRo, VoiD, Mr. R (compared to VoiD), MKLeo, etc. You don't need to be an absolute professional at a character when you're straight up better at the game than the competition.

Zero was never better then fatality he just beat him in the ditto.

Frihetsanka · Apr 4, 2017

Bowserboy3 said:
What are people's opinions on right now?

At a high/top level, he's lower end of high tier. At a low/mid level he's probably somewhere in mid tier. The character is really hard to play well, which keeps people from playing him. This is true for many high tiers, who often take a long time to learn while still giving less reward than top tiers. There are some exceptions, such as Corrin (who still seems fairly uncommon, from what I've seen) and Captain Falcon (who is rather common).

PK Bash · Apr 4, 2017

Bowserboy3 said:
Looking to gauge some opinions here...

What are people's opinions on right now?

For me, he's clearly a pretty solid character, but since his performance at EVO last year, he's just been really... lacking; sort of on a steady decline.

It seems top players are starting to rank Mega Man a bit lower too; when ZeRo released his "Mid Tier" video, he took it down almost half an hour into releasing it because the end round up had his "High Tier" image. In said image, Mega Man was ranked somewhere between 26th-31st... something like that (of course this could change by the time the actual video releases, but it's worth noting).

And hasn't Kameme dropped Mega Man now (or at least expressed desire to no longer have him as his main)?

What do you all think of the super fighting robot?

I've got a few more characters I am also looking to get some general opinion on, but I'll drip them into here slowly so discussion is more focused.

I would love to see what Mega Man players make of him. As far as I can tell he's a fairly mediocre character. He's solid for sure and extremely interesting imo but what's keeping him relevant in the meta?
How many relevant characters does he beat? And is it ever worth using him over another counterpick character? I think as far as this goes, his main niche is being a solid Diddy Kong counterpick, but I am of the opinion that this doesn't warrant significant time investment on it's own, considering how the rest of his matchup spread looks.

He demands a lot of effort to play effectively, and isn't exactly rewarding relative to how mentally taxing he is. Compare his damage potential to the rest of B tier (and C tier) and it doesn't even come close. I think to be good in this game you need to have powerful conversions or the ability to maintain advantage for a significant length of time (Mega Man in this regard is somewhat lacking compared to B and C tier), as well as decent kill potential due to the presence of Rage. It's a mechanic that doesn't do a heavily neutral-oriented character any favours at all.

Maybe that's the point of his design? Designed to appeal to gamers who want a challenge and to work for the win. Just like the original Mega Man games. It's cool to think that was the vibe they were going for. But it doesn't do him many favours in competitive play.
He's not a bad character by any means, but imo he's lacking what the clearly "good" characters have. If he was in Brawl he would probably have been a more relevant threat than he is in Smash 4.
--
(Speaking of Brawl, that's my favourite Smash game. I think it gets a lot of unnecessary flak from people who only care about combos but imo an intelligent neutral is far, far more interesting than combos and advantage/disadvantage state. Also Subspace Emissary was pretty fun)

Deleted member · Apr 4, 2017

I remember making a post sometime last year that

&

would make it to mid tier by early this year, good to see that they're held in that regard nowadays.

Despite not being the biggest Shulk optimist for a while, I see him as a pretty solid character now even if he'll always be held back by his startup weakness.

Das Koopa · Apr 4, 2017

Civil War Week:

1st: 9B

2nd: Kameme

,

3rd: Shuton

4th: VoiD

5th: Earth

,

5th: tyroy

7th: K9sbruce

7th: Kirihara

9th: Kome

9th: Nietono

9th: ANTi

9th: JK

13th: Fuwa

13th: Charliedaking

13th: Abadango

13th: Komorikiri

,

]

1st: CRimZ

,

2nd: BP|TrueMain

3rd: Viviff T. Great, MBA

4th: SilentRain

,

5th: Shinkou

5th: NikkiNanka

7th: KaZaK

7th: Light

1st: sinnyboo242

2nd: yeti

3rd: Skillager

4th: MJG

,

1st: Mistake

2nd: V115

3rd: iModerz

4th: San

1st: IxisNaugus

2nd: J.Miller

3rd: SevereCalamari

4th: Ho/Jack Hunter

5th: C.R.Z

5th: Peligod

7th: Aperture

7th: Streakz

1st: Big D

2nd: Len

3rd: Grade

4th: Kantrip

1st: KEN

2nd: Watashi wa kitsenedesu kyatto

3rd: RAIN

4th: Taranito

,

5th: Kenkenpa

5th: Gackt

7th: Banku

7th: Matcha

1st: Renegade

,

2nd: Sells

3rd: Krow

,

4th: TriVum

1st: Snugs

2nd: Duon

,

3rd: Extra

,

4th: Eternal

5th: Haiku

5th: Ignis

,

7th: Conan

7th: Revax

1st: komorikiri

,

2nd: Elegant

3rd: Ranai

4th: Zenyou

1st: K9sbruce

2nd: Javi

,

3rd: MrConCon

4th: Charliedaking

1st: Shuton

2nd: MKLeo

,

3rd: Charliedaking

4th: iStudying

5th: Elegant

5th: DSS

,

7th: Ac

7th: Tweek

Last Weekend:

1st: ZeRo

,

2nd: Tweek

,

3rd: MKLeo

,

4th: Salem

5th: WaDi

,

5th: Nairo

7th: Mr. E

,

7th: 6WX

9th: Raffi-X

9th: Biddy

9th: Chaos

,

9th: Light

13th: Koolaid

13th: Promaelia

13th: UtopianRay

13th: Zoan

1st: Boozer

2nd: MM

,

3rd: Sriks

4th: Ignis

,

5th: Pazx

5th: Duon

,

7th: Waveguider

,

7th: Luco

,

1st: Marshall

2nd: Crazycolorz5

3rd: Colinies

4th: Darkshad

1st: Ally

2nd: Blacktwins

,

3rd: Mistake

,

4th: SuperGirlKels

5th: Darkwolf

5th: Deathorse

7th: Fwed

7th: Chrim Foish

1st: ESAM

2nd: MVD

3rd: Marss

4th: Pugwest

,

1st: Wusi

2nd: quiK

,

3rd: Schligger

4th: Purple H

1st: Samsora

,

2nd: Captain Zack

3rd: BrawlerG31

4th: BSP

1st: Peabnut

2nd: Black Yoshi

3rd: Mekos

4th: RFang

5th: Dongquavious

,

5th: Gael

7th: Brownie

,

7th: Zephyr

1st: MKLeo

,

2nd: VoiD

3rd: Zan

,

4th: K9sbruce

,

1st: ScAtt

2nd: Fatality

3rd: RoguePenguin

4th: Saj

5th: Sonido

5th: Dog W/Hips

7th: ChillyChilli

,

7th: Yuruloki

1st: Glutonny

,

2nd: Elexiao

,

3rd: Ogey

4th: Fire

NotLiquid · Apr 4, 2017

Reading that V3 followup, not too surprised to find out that Japan views Sonic as a Top 3 character. Might be why ZeRo has consistently been rating Sonic higher than the average since he's always had incredibly high opinions of Japan's players and their meta. I have to wonder what Civil War would look like if KEN was in attendance.

Bowserboy3 said:
Looking to gauge some opinions here...

What are people's opinions on right now?

For me, he's clearly a pretty solid character, but since his performance at EVO last year, he's just been really... lacking; sort of on a steady decline.

It seems top players are starting to rank Mega Man a bit lower too; when ZeRo released his "Mid Tier" video, he took it down almost half an hour into releasing it because the end round up had his "High Tier" image. In said image, Mega Man was ranked somewhere between 26th-31st... something like that (of course this could change by the time the actual video releases, but it's worth noting).

And hasn't Kameme dropped Mega Man now (or at least expressed desire to no longer have him as his main)?

What do you all think of the super fighting robot?

I've got a few more characters I am also looking to get some general opinion on, but I'll drip them into here slowly so discussion is more focused.

Mega Man is (or rather was) respected too much. Problem back then was that's exactly what he wants. He preys hard on matchup inexperience. Counterplay was developed way too quickly after Kameme's breakout moment at EVO and in a meta like Smash 4 he comes across as one of the characters that has an incredibly explicit ceiling. To be honest, if his BAir wasn't as good as it is, I'd kind of expect him to be a whole tier lower.

Trunks159 · Apr 4, 2017

I think the problem with

is that Kameme is pretty much the only one using him. He has no other top level representative to help advance Kameme. This is likely what will happen to

, it is what kinda happened to

, it happened to

,

, and others.

Characters and top level players need other top level players to remain at the top.

Skeeter Mania · Apr 4, 2017

Trunks159 said:
I think the problem with is that Kameme is pretty much the only one using him. He has no other top level representative to help advance Kameme

So apparently Scatt doesn't count :<

And if this is the logic you're using, a decent number of characters could fall under this (Robin, Pikachu, Luigi, etc.).

verbatim · Apr 4, 2017

Trunks159 said:
He has no other top level representative ... it is what kinda happened to

Rosalina's a pretty bad example to use in 2017.

As an aside, there's not always a direct correspondance between character preformance at big events and overall utility. Bayonetta, Cloud, and Corrin have done better at multi-day events post-patch than pre-patch, and they definitely didn't get buffed.

Trunks159 · Apr 4, 2017

Skeeter Mania said:
So apparently Scatt doesn't count :<

And if this is the logic you're using, a decent number of characters could fall under this (Robin, Pikachu, Luigi, etc.).

No Scatt doesn't count. I am not talking about "decent characters". I am talking about characters that compete well at top level over a long period of time.

verbatim
It's not that characters can't resurge. I'd say Debuz's win at CIvil War was aided by Kirihara's win at Frame Perfect (along with not having to play Nairo, Tweek, Komo, Leo, Zero).

Skeeter Mania · Apr 4, 2017

Trunks159 said:
No Scatt doesn't count. I am not talking about "decent characters". I am talking about characters that compete well at top level over a long period of time.

At least two of the characters I listed could classify under your standard.

TDK · Apr 4, 2017

MSM 92 ft. Mr. R (103 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant

2nd: Mr. R

3rd: Tyrant

4th: Aarvark

5th: Taternator

5th: Nicko

7th: Ghost

7th: Phoenix

9th: VoiD

9th: NCJacobT

9th: Scourgemom

9th: K9Sbruce

13th: Scizor

13th: Razo

13th: Dynamo

13th: Jsan

Note: Both VoiD and Scizor were DQed in losers.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

NotLiquid said:
Reading that V3 followup, not too surprised to find out that Japan views Sonic as a Top 3 character. Might be why ZeRo has consistently been rating Sonic higher than the average since he's always had incredibly high opinions of Japan's players and their meta. I have to wonder what Civil War would look like if KEN was in attendance

Well regarding Sonic's MU chart he seems like he could be around top 3. I am not so sure he has NO losing MU'S like in 6WX MU chart he posted a while back.

He does lose to

and possibly

based on results.

has great results, but I would not call them top 3 level yet.

Nah · Apr 4, 2017

Skeeter Mania said:
At least two of the characters I listed could classify under your standard.

Depends on what one considers to count as performing well at top level over a long period of time.

have all arguably not done that yet.

Yonder · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
MSM 92 ft. Mr. R (103 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Aarvark
5th: Taternator
5th: Nicko
7th: Ghost
7th: Phoenix
9th: VoiD
9th: NCJacobT
9th: Scourgemom
9th: K9Sbruce
13th: Scizor
13th: Razo
13th: Dynamo
13th: Jsan

Note: Both VoiD and Scizor were DQed in losers.

So uh...Mr.R switched to Bayo huh? Looks like it worked out for him for the most part. Sadly for him though,Elegant is the Bayo killer. Why didn't he just use Sheik for that matchup vs Luigi?

Also obligatory "hey beat a low tier placing" through solo Wendy.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
MSM 92 ft. Mr. R (103 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Aarvark
5th: Taternator
5th: Nicko
7th: Ghost
7th: Phoenix
9th: VoiD
9th: NCJacobT
9th: Scourgemom
9th: K9Sbruce
13th: Scizor
13th: Razo
13th: Dynamo
13th: Jsan

Note: Both VoiD and Scizor were DQed in losers.

So does this mean Mr.R is also planning to start using Bayo more as well?

To bad he decided to solo her in a competition with "The Witch Slayer" Elegant, lol

Also I am not sure Mr.R,s using Sheik would of been that much better.
Elegant has destroyed Mr.R Sheik before too
Elegant is kinda funny where he will destroy MU'S Luigi is apparently bad at.

yet struggle with MU'S Luigi supposedly does well against (

)

Trunks159 · Apr 4, 2017

Mr. R said he'd use his secondary at MSM on Twitter.
Y Yonder

verbatim · Apr 4, 2017

Ziodyne 21 said:
Well regarding Sonic's MU chart he seems like he could be around top 3. I am not so sure he has NO losing MU'S like in 6WX MU chart he posted a while back.

He does lose to and possibly based on results.

has great results, but I would not call them top 3 level yet.

IDT Sonic loses to ZSS. Nairo has a consistent record over US sonic's, but I would put that up to skill gap. When you look at top 20 players, KEN and Nairo are exactly even in sets, with Nairo having to use Cloud on multiple occasions to win the set.

For a more US based comparrison, some googling reveals a 2-1 set win by 6WX over Marss at a MSM and a 3-2 win by Marss at Civil War.

I would argue that the matchup is even more than anything else, and that Sonic tenatively loses to Cloud and Fox.

Nu~ · Apr 4, 2017

Bowserboy3 said:
Looking to gauge some opinions here...

What are people's opinions on right now?

For me, he's clearly a pretty solid character, but since his performance at EVO last year, he's just been really... lacking; sort of on a steady decline.

It seems top players are starting to rank Mega Man a bit lower too; when ZeRo released his "Mid Tier" video, he took it down almost half an hour into releasing it because the end round up had his "High Tier" image. In said image, Mega Man was ranked somewhere between 26th-31st... something like that (of course this could change by the time the actual video releases, but it's worth noting).

And hasn't Kameme dropped Mega Man now (or at least expressed desire to no longer have him as his main)?

What do you all think of the super fighting robot?

I've got a few more characters I am also looking to get some general opinion on, but I'll drip them into here slowly so discussion is more focused.

Mid tier.

The character's meta didn't really seem to grow anywhere past footstool combos (that everyone can do back to him...) and better pellet walling. While he has pretty good tools to annoy the opponent, when you stop giving him space to pester, he just falls apart and struggles to get his footing back for longer than most characters.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

verbatim said:
IDT Sonic loses to ZSS. Nairo has a consistent record over US sonic's, but I would put that up to skill gap. When you look at top 20 players, KEN and Nairo are exactly even in sets, with Nairo having to use Cloud on multiple occasions to win the set.

For a more US based comparrison, some googling reveals a 2-1 set win by 6WX over Marss at a MSM and a 3-2 win by Marss at Civil War.

I would argue that the matchup is even more than anything else, and that Sonic tenatively loses to Cloud and Fox.

What about the Bayo MU . Salem has a pretty dominant record vs Sonic mains, and Zack too to a lesser extent.

Most of Sonic's approach options seem like easy bait for Witch Twist and Witch Time, Sonic also does not seem to like dealing with Bayo's large and lingering airiels which can hit him right out of his spin dashes when times right. Sonic also seems to be comboed and janked surprisingly easy too

Sonic can win t if he gets an early lead and goes full on Wrath style camping and lame play, but Bayo can also do the same to Sonic to a somewhat lesser degree

Vyrnx · Apr 4, 2017

verbatim said:
with Nairo having to use Cloud on multiple occasions to win the set.

Nairo has only ever taken games/sets off of KEN with ZSS. I'm pretty sure his Cloud is 0-4 against him in games.

TDK · Apr 4, 2017

Das Koopa said:
Civil War Week:

1st: 9B
2nd: Kameme ,
3rd: Shuton
4th: VoiD
5th: Earth ,
5th: tyroy
7th: K9sbruce
7th: Kirihara
9th: Kome
9th: Nietono
9th: ANTi
9th: JK
13th: Fuwa
13th: Charliedaking
13th: Abadango
13th: Komorikiri , ]

1st: CRimZ ,
2nd: BP|TrueMain
3rd: Viviff T. Great, MBA
4th: SilentRain ,
5th: Shinkou
5th: NikkiNanka
7th: KaZaK
7th: Light

1st: sinnyboo242
2nd: yeti
3rd: Skillager
4th: MJG ,

1st: Mistake
2nd: V115
3rd: iModerz
4th: San

1st: IxisNaugus
2nd: J.Miller
3rd: SevereCalamari
4th: Ho/Jack Hunter
5th: C.R.Z
5th: Peligod
7th: Aperture
7th: Streakz

1st: Big D
2nd: Len
3rd: Grade
4th: Kantrip

1st: KEN
2nd: Watashi wa kitsenedesu kyatto
3rd: RAIN
4th: Taranito ,
5th: Kenkenpa
5th: Gackt
7th: Banku
7th: Matcha

1st: Renegade ,
2nd: Sells
3rd: Krow ,
4th: TriVum

1st: Snugs
2nd: Duon ,
3rd: Extra ,
4th: Eternal
5th: Haiku
5th: Ignis ,
7th: Conan
7th: Revax

1st: komorikiri ,
2nd: Elegant
3rd: Ranai
4th: Zenyou

1st: K9sbruce
2nd: Javi ,
3rd: MrConCon
4th: Charliedaking

1st: Shuton
2nd: MKLeo ,
3rd: Charliedaking
4th: iStudying
5th: Elegant
5th: DSS ,
7th: Ac
7th: Tweek

Last Weekend:

1st: ZeRo ,
2nd: Tweek ,
3rd: MKLeo ,
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi ,
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E ,
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Chaos ,
9th: Light
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

1st: Boozer
2nd: MM ,
3rd: Sriks
4th: Ignis ,
5th: Pazx
5th: Duon ,
7th: Waveguider ,
7th: Luco ,

1st: Marshall
2nd: Crazycolorz5
3rd: Colinies
4th: Darkshad

1st: Ally
2nd: Blacktwins ,
3rd: Mistake ,
4th: SuperGirlKels
5th: Darkwolf
5th: Deathorse
7th: Fwed
7th: Chrim Foish

1st: ESAM
2nd: MVD
3rd: Marss
4th: Pugwest ,

1st: Wusi
2nd: quiK ,
3rd: Schligger
4th: Purple H

1st: Samsora ,
2nd: Captain Zack
3rd: BrawlerG31
4th: BSP

1st: Peabnut
2nd: Black Yoshi
3rd: Mekos
4th: RFang
5th: Dongquavious ,
5th: Gael
7th: Brownie ,
7th: Zephyr

1st: MKLeo ,
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Zan ,
4th: K9sbruce ,

1st: ScAtt
2nd: Fatality
3rd: RoguePenguin
4th: Saj
5th: Sonido
5th: Dog W/Hips
7th: ChillyChilli ,
7th: Yuruloki

1st: Glutonny ,
2nd: Elexiao ,
3rd: Ogey
4th: Fire

Where's Civil War?

CodeBlue_ · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
MSM 92 ft. Mr. R (103 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: Tyrant
4th: Aarvark
5th: Taternator
5th: Nicko
7th: Ghost
7th: Phoenix
9th: VoiD
9th: NCJacobT
9th: Scourgemom
9th: K9Sbruce
13th: Scizor
13th: Razo
13th: Dynamo
13th: Jsan

Note: Both VoiD and Scizor were DQed in losers.

I thought Mr. R used Cloud against Aarvark? Aarvark was talking about it on Twitter.

ARISTOS · Apr 4, 2017

Bowserboy3 said:
Looking to gauge some opinions here...

What are people's opinions on right now?

For me, he's clearly a pretty solid character, but since his performance at EVO last year, he's just been really... lacking; sort of on a steady decline.

It seems top players are starting to rank Mega Man a bit lower too; when ZeRo released his "Mid Tier" video, he took it down almost half an hour into releasing it because the end round up had his "High Tier" image. In said image, Mega Man was ranked somewhere between 26th-31st... something like that (of course this could change by the time the actual video releases, but it's worth noting).

And hasn't Kameme dropped Mega Man now (or at least expressed desire to no longer have him as his main)?

What do you all think of the super fighting robot?

I've got a few more characters I am also looking to get some general opinion on, but I'll drip them into here slowly so discussion is more focused.

Without hitting footstool combos he really struggles to take off stocks, and in a meta where people are killing faster and faster MM will struggle unless new tech is found. I'd agree with others in saying that he's closer to the high end of mid tier.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

ARISTOS said:
Without hitting footstool combos he really struggles to take off stocks, and in a meta where people are killing faster and faster MM will struggle unless new tech is found. I'd agree with others in saying that he's closer to the high end of mid tier.

It's looking like many top players are taking notice of this trend after Civil War . Kameme is dropping MM

We have ZeRo trying out

and Mr.R bringing out his

again after quite a while post- Civil War. Both characters that can kill faster or clutch stocks out better than thier respective mains

It's also nteresting that Mr.R officially considers Bayo his secondary now

Rizen · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
MSM 92 ft. Mr. R (103 Entrants) (SoCal)

Note: Both VoiD and Scizor were DQed in losers.

Why?

IMO

is high tier, about where

and

are. He might be short on rep atm but he's a solid character and better than mid tiers. He has good zoning, weight, movement and some versatile tools ie metal blade.

TDK · Apr 4, 2017

Rizen said:
Why?

My best guess would be that they both didn't show up to their losers matches, but I wasn't there so I have no idea.

In my own opinion, Mega Man competes with Toon Link for the title of worst high tier (Lucario's Mid tier to me). Excellent zoning and projectile based combo game but both hampered by some extremely crippling flaws (Mega's inability to reliably secure stocks early and Tink's complete and utter inability to get reward for beating shield up until about 120 combined with a bad grab) and lack of rep. Maybe once Hyuga comes back to the US Tink will bounce back because he has the ability to adapt, while Mega Man doesn't. I can only see Mega going down from here.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

It really does help that MM also has a pretty poor MU spread with most of the current top tiers.

At this point it looks like

is the only one he really does well against. Well maybe

/

too

Skeeter Mania · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
because he has the ability to adapt, while Mega Man doesn't

Adapt in what way? What in your opinion makes Mega Man unable to do the same?

Appledees · Apr 4, 2017

TDK said:
Tink will bounce back because he has the ability to adapt, while Mega Man doesn't. I can only see Mega going down from here.

This statement really doesn't make any sense. What keeps Megaman from being unable to adapt? this applies that Megaman is some low tier character who has no tools and options for a player to even adapt and even then that logic doesn';t work. How does a character not have the ability to adapt? This is a player exclusive thing, the best players of characters always use their best tools to overcome their weaknesses no matter how major/minor they are. Why is Megaman exclusive in this case?

In my honest opinion I think Megaman is a lower end of the high tier or high mid(a place where I place Falcon,Lucario,Villiager). He has the tools to play at a higher level of play despite his weaknesses.

Wintermelon43 · Apr 4, 2017

For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:

:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)

:+1

:-1

:+1

:-1

:+1

:-1 or 0

:-2

And with High Tier:

:+1

:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)

:-1 or 0

:+2

:+1

:0

:-1

: ~~Unwinnable (Just like any other Ditto)~~

And for the people who consider

high tier, they are all +2.

So it's a total of +2 to +4 (+8 to +10 if you add all three of

as well) aganist the top and high tiers in total.

That is really good

So yea, I have no idea where Mega Man having a bad matchup spread came from. He has a really good matchup spread. Not to mention he does really good aganist the lower tiers too (Can't think of any he doesn't beat except maybe

and

, although I might be forgetting someone).

The main problems are that he is really hard and tiring to play, and that he has low representation.

|RK| · Apr 4, 2017

IDK how Mega Man is +1 against Lucario... mind elaborating on that?

Separately, I'm watching ZeRo's KTAR interview, and evidently not only did Mr. E say that he thinks Lucina might be better that Marth, but Leo said he might agree.

Ziodyne 21 · Apr 4, 2017

Saying Megaman goes positive vs ZSS, Rosalina and Sonic seems a bit ovey optimistic. Cant Rosalina cripple MM's neutral game woth gravitational pull?
Same with Lucario .Any character that struggles to end stocks as much as MM will at times is going to have a bad time vs him

Also seeing Salem and Zack send Kameme's MM to the scrap heap several occasions. I think it safe to say the MU is at best -1 for him and is not looking to get better anytime soon

Guido65 · Apr 4, 2017

Nah said:
Depends on what one considers to count as performing well at top level over a long period of time.

have all arguably not done that yet.

Why is toon link being mentioned here when hyuga has placed 9th at g3,9th at pound,5th at CEO, and 4th place at 2GGT:Mexico Saga with solo toon link?

About mega man: he's okay but he's not exactly very good and his matchup spread is very questionable a lot like

who is also still considered high tier. Unfortunately for him he requires a ton of investment for how unrewarding he is which is not unlike

and

which makes him a very mentally draining character.

Trunks159 · Apr 4, 2017

Wintermelon43 said:
For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:
:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)
:+1
:-1
:+1
:+1
:+1
:-1
:+1
:-1 or 0
:-2

And with High Tier:
:+1
:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)
:-1 or 0
:+2
:+1
:+1
:-1
: ~~Unwinnable (Just like any other Ditto)~~

And for the people who consider high tier, they are all +2.

So it's a total of +3 to +5 (+9 to +11 if you add all three of as well) aganist the top and high tiers in total.

That is really good

So yea, I have no idea where Mega Man having a bad matchup spread came from. He has a really good matchup spread. Not to mention he does really good aganist the lower tiers too (Can't think of any he doesn't beat except maybe and , although I might be forgetting someone).

The main problems are that he is really hard and tiring to play, and that he has low representation.

You're really typing those match up ratios like they're completely agreed upon. He's not exactly a common character who we have seen repeatedly.

Needless to say, I disagree with a few of those.

Heracr055 · Apr 4, 2017

Wintermelon43 said:
For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:

And with High Tier:

:+2

Ryu's bottom of top in this current version of the tier list. Can we keep personal feelings of where a character belongs on the tier list out of ranking the MU's for the character you're arguing for? It'll confuse and mislead IMO

Edit: The MM MU is very tough for Ryu, though. Lemons make it difficult to even breach his zone

Galaxeon · Apr 4, 2017

Wintermelon43 said:
For Mega Man's Matchup Spread:
:-1 (Could potentially be even in the future but it isn't looking like it right now)
:+1
:-1
:+1
:+1
:+1
:-1
:+1
:-1 or 0
:-2

And with High Tier:
:+1
:+1 (Maybe +2? I've heard that it might also be +2)
:-1 or 0
:+2
:+1
:+1
:-1

There's almost no even match-up in this chart. Probably half of them at least are way closer than that, otherwise MM would be top tier. This isn't limited to Mega Man, I think people tend to underestimate the volatility of the game. "+1" doesn't really mean much and match-up charts are, generally, still not really relevant for now, especially when a character lacks representation and results.

pichuplayer · Apr 4, 2017

NotLiquid said:
Reading that V3 followup, not too surprised to find out that Japan views Sonic as a Top 3 character. Might be why ZeRo has consistently been rating Sonic higher than the average since he's always had incredibly high opinions of Japan's players and their meta. I have to wonder what Civil War would look like if KEN was in attendance.

Mega Man is (or rather was) respected too much. Problem back then was that's exactly what he wants. He preys hard on matchup inexperience. Counterplay was developed way too quickly after Kameme's breakout moment at EVO and in a meta like Smash 4 he comes across as one of the characters that has an incredibly explicit ceiling. To be honest, if his BAir wasn't as good as it is, I'd kind of expect him to be a whole tier lower.

There's a V3 followup, where? I can never seem to find it

Wintermelon43 · Apr 4, 2017

|RK| said:
IDK how Mega Man is +1 against Lucario... mind elaborating on that?

Separately, I'm watching ZeRo's KTAR interview, and evidently not only did Mr. E say that he thinks Lucina might be better that Marth, but Leo said he might agree.

Actually now that I think of it, it's probably more like even, but pretty much Mega Man can keep Lucario out very well, and is good at edgeguarding him. His killing weakness is probably enough to make the matchup even, but it isn't bad enough to make Mega Man lose, espicially with the other two things I stated. How are the results looking like for this matchup?

Heracr055 said:
Ryu's bottom of top in this current version of the tier list. Can we keep personal feelings of where a character belongs on the tier list out of ranking the MU's for the character you're arguing for? It'll confuse and mislead IMO

Almost no one puts Ryu in top tier, most people put him in high tier. There's no fully agreed upon tier list in the game, I can't just make it so that everyone agree with the tier I'm placing the character at.

verbatim · Apr 4, 2017

Vyrnx said:
Nairo has only ever taken games/sets off of KEN with ZSS. I'm pretty sure his Cloud is 0-4 against him in games.

He won a set with Cloud that may not have been recorded, he talks about it in one of his interviews after winning the Invitational.

Also

Guido65 said:
About mega man: he's okay but he's not exactly very good and his matchup spread is very questionable a lot like who is also still considered high tier. Unfortunately for him he requires a ton of investment for how unrewarding he is which is not unlikeand which makes him a very mentally draining character.

Pit is not a hard character to play. He has good spacing tools, multiple jumps to mixup landings/recoveries, easy bread and butter combo's, a kill throw, a projectile, good disjoints, and top tier smash attacks. I would argue that he's the most convential character in the game, which isn't a very controversial claim imo.

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