Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Rosalina is looking top 3 at this point. Shame UtopianRay couldn't clutch it out, but taking ZeRo to last stock, last hit is still incredible.

 

[|RK|]

Rosalina is looking top 3 at this point. Shame UtopianRay couldn't clutch it out, but taking ZeRo to last stock, last hit is still incredible.

Eh, I would say it's ZeRo specifically. ZeRo seems to have lost whatever answer he used to have to Rosalina & Luma. On that note, I wanna make a post about getting rid of Luma later...

EDIT: As ESAM tweeted, people are finally starting to punish ZeRo's Monkey Flips, too. Not nearly as free a move as people think it is...

My theory is it's part people improving against Diddy, part unfamiliarity with players so he can't edge trap, and part self-inflicted nerves

— ESAM (@imESAM) April 2, 2017

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can we talk specifically about Zack's ledge tactics, the up-b pseudo-planking? Who can specifically challenge this?

I bet Mac would melt it alive with his magical ability to trade with anything.
What about Rock Smash or Charizard's invincible f-smash? Flare Blitz? (lol)
Nayru's Love maybe could, but low reward.
Any DHD can tricks that interfere? (Can't think of any...)
Luma... something...? Seems like a good way to get Luma killed.
ZSS or Sheik down-b, reading the top of an up-b...?
Big projectiles, like Charge Shot?
Triggered stuff like PK Fire/Arcfire/Arcthunder?
Something like Shulk or Corrin f-smash? Marth?
Counters?

Many (but not all) of these run Witch time risks. Otherwise Villager Tree would be a great one.



I'm also still curious what impact f1 invincible specials (Rising Uppercut + Rest) have on Bayo ladders.

Actually charizard's flamethrower and bowser's flame breath can counter witch time because of their unique properties (I know I've cancelled out witch time with flamethrower before) because the stages usually don't have walls for bayo to hide underneath planking while zard or bowser is breathing fire all over the place is a very bad idea.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Can we talk specifically about Zack's ledge tactics, the up-b pseudo-planking? Who can specifically challenge this?

I bet Mac would melt it alive with his magical ability to trade with anything.
What about Rock Smash or Charizard's invincible f-smash? Flare Blitz? (lol)
Nayru's Love maybe could, but low reward.
Any DHD can tricks that interfere? (Can't think of any...)
Luma... something...? Seems like a good way to get Luma killed.
ZSS or Sheik down-b, reading the top of an up-b...?
Big projectiles, like Charge Shot?
Triggered stuff like PK Fire/Arcfire/Arcthunder?
Something like Shulk or Corrin f-smash? Marth?
Counters?

Many (but not all) of these run Witch time risks. Otherwise Villager Tree would be a great one.



I'm also still curious what impact f1 invincible specials (Rising Uppercut + Rest) have on Bayo ladders.

I can't tell from your post if Bayo stays completely beneath the stage or not, but if not: tethergrabs. Lucas and TLink's in particular is low to the ground.

 

[|RK|]

Okay, so in my studying of the Rosa MU, I watched Leo's MK vs Dabuz. Yeah, Kirby and MK are very different, sure. But what I noticed is that Leo was able to get rid of Luma by getting in with a grab one time. Y'know, because uthrow.

So I started looking for throw combos that could get rid of Luma in a similar manner, but I ended up discovering that raw dthrow worked fine. I could just jab afterwards and get rid of Luma from there. Ended up recognizing that the hitstun of any move on Rosa was important, since obviously she has to wait out [some] hitstun until she can control Luma.

All this is to say - the only ways to get rid of Luma I see people talking about or doing are direct methods. I see top players knock Rosalina away and then hold shield near Luma when Rosa is at high percents. I think people need to understand how much hitstun Rosa is put in after she's hit in this MU. Because that will cut down on a lot of the unsafe/obvious ways to get rid of Luma.

As an example - at 50%, if Rosa is hit by a Diddy bair, she's in 40 frames of hitstun. Dthrow at the same percent puts her into 47 frames of hitstun. So if you're getting stray hits or grabs, you can hit a Smash attack to get rid of Luma shortly after for free.

Now, some players certainly do this - you can see that when ZeRo throws Rosalina offstage at high percents, he'll immediately fsmash Luma away (though in some cases, he could charge it more to ensure Luma's death). But what I most consistently see from players are the most high risk/high reward options for getting rid of Luma (like Monkey Flip is starting to look like), and little capitalizing on the smaller openings they do get...

Maybe I'm totally wrong, and players already do this. In which case, call me out - I'm better off having learned that. But from what I see, they really don't.

EDIT:

Not quite. During Rosa's hitstun Luma is helpless for a shorter period of time than Rosa. (roughly ~80-90%)

 

[DanGR]

Ended up recognizing that the hitstun of any move on Rosa was important, since obviously she has to wait out the hitstun until she can control Luma.

Not quite. During Rosa's hitstun Luma is helpless for a shorter period of time than Rosa. (roughly ~80-90%)

 

[|RK|]

Not quite. During Rosa's hitstun Luma is helpless for a shorter period of time than Rosa. (roughly ~80-90%)

Thank you; that's very good information to know! Following that, most of those things should still work. I know that with Kirby, buffered dthrow to jab is guaranteed to work, as I tested it with Dabuz.

But it's still important to know that you can still get rid of Luma safely through indirect means.

(I'm going to add your post to mine for clarity, btw)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Can we talk specifically about Zack's ledge tactics, the up-b pseudo-planking? Who can specifically challenge this?

I bet Mac would melt it alive with his magical ability to trade with anything.
What about Rock Smash or Charizard's invincible f-smash? Flare Blitz? (lol)
Nayru's Love maybe could, but low reward.
Any DHD can tricks that interfere? (Can't think of any...)
Luma... something...? Seems like a good way to get Luma killed.
ZSS or Sheik down-b, reading the top of an up-b...?
Big projectiles, like Charge Shot?
Triggered stuff like PK Fire/Arcfire/Arcthunder?
Something like Shulk or Corrin f-smash? Marth?
Counters?

Many (but not all) of these run Witch time risks. Otherwise Villager Tree would be a great one.



I'm also still curious what impact f1 invincible specials (Rising Uppercut + Rest) have on Bayo ladders.

Marth can challenge it with counter, dtilt, ftilt, fsmash, and dsmash (though I wouldn't recommend this one). Helps that Marth is good at ledge trapping and option coverage too so the Bayonetta match up is actually pretty good.

 

[|RK|]

And as I say that, Zinoto has a Diddy specific post that points out ZeRo's mistakes:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spomni

 

[Bowserboy3]

I saw a post a few posts up (possibly a page back) in reference to Captain Zack's psuedo ledge planking with Bayonetta.

Of course, being a Bayonetta player myself, I have been learning this type of planking.

I can say now that of all the things mentioned, any character with some sort of disjointed or even intangible poke can deal with this absolutely fine.

I was utilising this planking against one of my friends the other day; he uses a few characters, but like me, he also uses Marth. Marth's (so of course, Lucina also) Dtilt stops this kind of planking fine. It's low risk enough to use, and is long ranged enough to not run the risk of trading with any of Bayonetta's hitboxes.

If this style of planking becomes the future for Bayonetta, I can see Marth and Lucina becoming even more prominent counterpicks to Bayonetta; that or just their MU's becoming even more notable vs her. I feel Marth and Lucina do quite well against Bayonetta, or at least, better than most characters in the game. It helps that Counter can edgeguard Bayonetta's recovery, and with them being able to challenge this new planking, it's going to become an interesting MU I feel.

 

[TDK]

ignore this

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Tweek also took ZeRo to game 5 at KTAR in anothet very close set for ZeRo a though he did win it.

It really does look like more and more players are now starting to figure ZeRo's Diddy out now. He has not getting a lot of the absolute dominating or clean victories he has been known for in the past has he?

 

[L9999]

Tweek also took ZeRo to game 5 at KTAR in another very close set for ZeRo a though he did win it.

It really does look like more and more players are now starting to figure ZeRo's Diddy out now. He has not getting a lot of the absolute dominating or clean victories he has been known for in the past.

Looks like camp2win/neutral fortress is a playstyle of old nowadays.

 

[|RK|]

Tweek also took ZeRo to game 5 at KTAR in anothet very close set for ZeRo a though he did win it.

It really does look like more and more players are now starting to figure ZeRo's Diddy out now. He has not getting a lot of the absolute dominating or clean victories he has been known for in the past.

Monkey Flip isn't as free of an option for starters. People read that now.

Looks like camp2win/neutral fortress is a playstyle of old nowadays.

Thing is... ZeRo doesn't camp, if you watch his matches. Diddy is a character that vortexes hard - 90% of what you see ZeRo doing is usually pressing his advantage. It just looks a lot slower than, say, Larry's Fox vortexing. Rosa players are starting to exploit his poor neutral choices and poor disadvantage choices. Everyone else is just exploiting his disadvantage for the most part. Think about Kirihara's kills on him as he attempted to come back onstage, the Monkey Flips that were read, Luhtie catching him on a platform, etc.

Has nothing to do with camping, tbh.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of "camp2win" slowly dying out
Salem taking Tweek to Duck Hunt on get backfired on him hard and thus got double eliminated by Tweek. Duck Hunt isn't banned at KTAR ?

Man Salem I like ya but you kinda deserved to. be reverse 3-0'd for pulling that stunt.

 

[TDK]

What's Mr. E's reasoning for going Lucina? It seems almost random who or when he uses her or uses her against.

 

[|RK|]

Speaking of the end of "camp2win" Salem taking Tweek to Duck Hunt on get backfired on him hard and thus got double eliminated by Tweek.

Man Salem I like ya but you kinda deserved to. be reverse 3-0'd for pulling that stunt.

Now Salem on Duck Hunt... THAT is camping. Good gravy.

 

[L9999]

Monkey Flip isn't as free of an option for starters. People read that now.



Thing is... ZeRo doesn't camp, if you watch his matches. Diddy is a character that vortexes hard - 90% of what you see ZeRo doing is usually pressing his advantage. It just looks a lot slower than, say, Larry's Fox vortexing. Rosa players are starting to exploit his poor neutral choices and poor disadvantage choices. Everyone else is just exploiting his disadvantage for the most part. Think about Kirihara's kills on him as he attempted to come back onstage, the Monkey Flips that were read, Luhtie catching him on a platform, etc.

Has nothing to do with camping, tbh.

Wasn't necesarily talking about ZeRo, just the playstyle in general.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I find it a little funny that so far only one person has been able to defeat Leo in dittos that being Tweek.

 

[NotLiquid]

Can Tweek just win this tournament with DK lol

 

[TDK]

If Tweek does this he's the best DK

 

[NotLiquid]

Man I have to imagine Tweek will be so mad if he actually wins this with DK.

Imagine your big moment beating ZeRo in grands is with total cheese. At least Tweek and ZeRo are friends enough that they probably don't hold it against each other lmao

 

[TDK]

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (New Jersey)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

 

[Skeeter Mania]

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (Wherever KTAR is)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

WaDi also used .

 

[|RK|]

So, I didn't know before, but evidently aerial Giant Punch has super armor 6 frames later than grounded. So it's easier to beat it out if done off ledge.

 

[Frihetsanka]

According to ZeRo, Mr. E thinks Lucina could potentially be better than Marth.

 

[The-Technique]

So...Tweek just ran a train through MK Leo (again!) and reset the bracket on ZeRo with Donkey Kong. I guess we can't write DK off anymore.

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (Wherever KTAR is)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

The tournament took place in Somerset, New Jersey.

I think Tweek could be a top 5 player if he improved his mental game. You could see Tweek visibly getting very tilted in almost all of his top 8 sets.

Tweek also could have definitely beaten Zero in the 2nd set, game 3 was practically his but he just made too many errors.

 

[Floor]

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (Wherever KTAR is)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

Zero also used before top 32; not sure who we count. Also Mr. E didnt go Marth from what I saw. Or rather he never won with him. He got 3-0ed by Leo and went Lucina every other match im pretty sure.
Frihetsanka yes he did indeed say that.
Mr. E went Lucina because he is feeling more comfortable with her

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yea Tweek seems like he is on the rise honestly. Looking at him he seems to improved a little on keeping calm and collected when the pressure is on him when you look at him a little more than a year ago. But he can still improve for sure.


Also I am not sure who can we consider the best Bayo now between Salem and Zack. Salem likely has more notable wins on both players and competitions.
But Zack overall more consistent and had more success at the really big majors.

 

[OverTime]

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (New Jersey)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

There's equal amounts Cloud and Lucina.

Though the average placement is higher for Cloud, it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[L9999]

KTAR XX (108 Entrants) (New Jersey)
1st: ZeRo
2nd: Tweek
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Salem
5th: WaDi
5th: Nairo
7th: Mr. E
7th: 6WX
9th: Raffi-X
9th: Biddy
9th: Light
9th: Chaos
13th: Koolaid
13th: Promaelia
13th: UtopianRay
13th: Zoan

Tweek is the best DK

I still think HIKARU is the best because he solos DK. Tweek is still super legit tho.

According to ZeRo, Mr. E thinks Lucina could potentially be better than Marth.

Nice to have another person on the Lucina hype train and a good player nonetheless, on top of more people pulling her out. As it was preached last year, she needed rep and someone who gives a damn, although that goes for other characters too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ZeRo highlighted that Lucina's raw bait-and-punish game is better.
Most Lucina players might just feel more comfortable doing that. I know I rather have a good punish than having to step back to adjust spacing.

 

[Floor]

ZeRo highlighted that Lucina's raw bait-and-punish game is better.
Most Lucina players might just feel more comfortable doing that. I know I rather have a good punish than having to step back to adjust spacing.

I agree with this. As a Lucina main, I've studied Zeros sets already and one thing I've noticed is how he reacts to airdodges and fastfalls and punishes with fsmash. Boom, stocks are gone at 60% because Zero reacted to a airdodge. When Zero has momentum going, he punishes opponents hard.

 

[Luco]

#saveus

Expand Gong 2 (101 Entrants) (Wollongong, Australia)

1st Boozer
2nd MM (not sure how much he used palu)
3rd Sriks
4th Ignis
5th Pazx
5th Duon (not sure how much mac was used)
7th Waveguider
7th Luco
9th Extra
9th Pudge
9th Snugs
9th Denz
13th Kaito
13th Xettman
13th Jeese
13th Yehya

I'm officially mad because I forgot how to fight Bowser and am bad at fighting Shulk but both those players were on point anyway so idk if there was much I was gonna do.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Struggling to see how Lucina can be straight up "better" than Marth, even if you just weigh up the threat being KO'd at 35% as opposed to 80% (this is just one example; we can talk about Fair KO'ing at 90% as opposed to 130% etc. Even things like general ledge trapping and covering options is more rewarding with Marth; this example would have tippered and KO'd with Marth; https://youtu.be/bbmBcssm1U4?t=237).

Again, to avoid cutting too deep into this topic, I do agree that Marth and Lucina are near enough identical though; neither one is straight up better than the other IMO. Marth would theoretically always be the "higher" character though (and by that I mean by what, a single spot, if we were separate them) due to his higher reward ceiling.

Also, I am pretty sure I saw Mr E use Marth a fair bit (yes, use and win). I'll get back on that...

Edit: Yes, Mr E did use Marth in bracket and win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFfXeP0TsDs
TDK - might want to update that post.

Of note for the "Lucina might be better than Marth" situation, look at the very last KO in the set; tipper Fair that more than KO'd, and may or may not have been able to have been survived with DI as Lucina's Fair.

---
To veer off this subject a bit, I am really impressed with how much WaDi has come on as a player over the past half year or so. Is it correct to call him the best Mewtwo of the west (Ie: not Abadango)?

And also...

Expand Gong 2 (101 Entrants) (Wollongong, Australia)

1st Boozer

What a time to live in when Bowser can win a big tournament!

 

[Yikarur]

@Das Koopa
Do you use Twitter? Sometimes it would be easier to just tweet a result to you, when I'm too lazy translation the results in Smashboards Text 8)

 

[Man Li Gi]

Tweek doesn't have the best DK.

Hikaru and DKwill still have better DKs. FOH with that nonsense that Tweek's DK is among those guys. He certainly has a legit secondary DK, but I argue that DKbill, Nurse, Konga, and Poke have better DKs. You just are exposed to Tweek as he places well with Cloud, and then pulls DK out in dire situations.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Not quite the case either.
Tweek's just better than all of them. As a player.
This is fairly common. ZeRo, VoiD, Mr. R (compared to VoiD), MKLeo, etc. You don't need to be an absolute professional at a character when you're straight up better at the game than the competition.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Tweek doesn't have the best DK.

Hikaru and DKwill still have better DKs. FOH with that nonsense that Tweek's DK is among those guys. He certainly has a legit secondary DK, but I argue that DKbill, Nurse, Konga, and Poke have better DKs. You just are exposed to Tweek as he places well with Cloud, and then pulls DK out in dire situations.

Now what about Larry Lurr?

 

[Deleted member]

#saveus

Expand Gong 2 (101 Entrants) (Wollongong, Australia)

1st Boozer
2nd MM (not sure how much he used palu)
3rd Sriks
4th Ignis
5th Pazx
5th Duon (not sure how much mac was used)
7th Waveguider
7th Luco
9th Extra
9th Pudge
9th Snugs
9th Denz
13th Kaito
13th Xettman
13th Jeese
13th Yehya

I'm officially mad because I forgot how to fight Bowser and am bad at fighting Shulk but both those players were on point anyway so idk if there was much I was gonna do.

Yo, congrats to Sriks!