Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[NairWizard]

Pushing ahead in advantage state when you have risk:reward on your side and the opportunity to do so is intelligence, not aggression.

 

[Nu~]

Pushing ahead in advantage state when you have risk:reward on your side and the opportunity to do so is intelligence, not aggression.

So, aggression would be pushing forward into advantage because it's what's most comfortable for you playstyle-wise?

 

[NairWizard]

So, aggression would be pushing forward into advantage because it's what's most comfortable for you playstyle-wise?

Aggression would be making decisions in neutral that force the opponent to react instead of waiting for an action and reacting to it. Defense isn't about running away or not hitting your opponent, it's just about reacting instead of acting.

Ally tomahawking you is aggressive. He's predicting that you'll stay in your shield--he can't react to that. He's calling you out based on a pattern.

MKLeo perfect pivoting to f-tilt space in front of you and waiting for you to move is defensive. He's not predicting. He's reacting to you. If you take any forward-moving action in this scenario, you get tipper f-tilted.

 

[blackghost]

From what his tweet said, it looks like he is picking Bayo as a secondary and/or counterpick. However history has shown that secondary/pocket Bayo's have not been all that successful.

But, Abadango has always been a player able to use a variety of different characters with good results, so maybe Bayo will be a good pick for him

dont think aba is aggro enough as a player to get the most out of her. maybe im wrong. i get that feeling when i watch hbox play this game. If hbox played villager he'd be amazing at this game. i dont think mr. R is playing the right character either. WANTING a charatcer to work and that character being right for you aren't the same.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

dont think aba is aggro enough as a player to get the most out of her. maybe im wrong. i get that feeling when i watch hbox play this game. If hbox played villager he'd be amazing at this game. i dont think mr. R is playing the right character either. WANTING a charatcer to work and that character being right for you aren't the same.

I guess so. The more I look at Captain Zack, the more I see that going full aggro is likely the best way to play Bayo with some MU's being the exception i.e Diddy.

That is likely why Zack has been a lot more consistent as of late than Salem with his more patient and neutral focuses Bayo playstyle. It really looks like many players are starting to figure Salem out . Trying to foucs on neutral with Bayo is likely not the best idea since her neutral game is pretty lacking compared to most other top-tier character.

Mr,r may do better with due to being another neutral dominating character that has an easier time closing stocks than Sheik, the main think that Mr.R has problems with. I can also possibly see Mr.R doing well with too. I know Mr.r tweeted he was going to switch to Marth as a joke, but I think he might have good success with him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Sonic is primarily just annoying, and if he has a lead and wants to keep it then it can be difficult. But Sonic has a recovery that is vulnerable, he is not good with landings, and he has poor overall hit boxes. Sonic is also easy to juggle and ladder, and combos work better on Sonic. Sonic also lacks a consistent way to kill Meta Knight.

Diddy is much more difficult.

How IYO does Sonic struggle at landing?

 

[Nobie]

The classic mistake is to assume that hitting buttons means you're being aggressive, when it's mostly you just not thinking (I am guilty of hitting buttons too). It's also often a mistaken assumption that charging at your opponent is what constitutes offense.

I think this is why Smash 4 in general has been viewed as a "defensive game," especially by Melee players, because there's a huge range of skill in that game where hitting buttons can actually garner great success because the path to get there is difficult (and therefore feels satisfying to accomplish) and the reward is very high.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess so. The more I look at Captain Zack, the more I see that going full aggro is likely the best way to play Bayo with some MU's being the exception i.e Diddy.

That is likely why Zack has been a lot more consistent as of late than Salem with his more patient and neutral focuses Bayo playstyle. It really looks like many players are starting to figure Salem out . Trying to foucs on neutral with Bayo is likely not the best idea since her neutral game is pretty lacking compared to most other top-tier character.

Mr,r may do better with due to being another neutral dominating character that has an easier time closing stocks than Sheik, the main think that Mr.R has problems with. I can also possibly see Mr.R doing well with too. I know Mr.r tweeted he was going to switch to Marth as a joke, but I think he might have good success with him.

Most of us already know that Mr. R was THE prime Marth main in Brawl second best behind Mikeneko imo.
I actually talked to him at Smash Factor when Leo was on stream, I told him "I still have flashbacks about your Marth", and he responded "his Brawl form is my favorite Smash character ever, but I don't really like him in this game".
But that was about 8 months ago so he might have changed his mind.

 

[soniczx123]

How IYO does Sonic struggle at landing?

He doesn't have a hitbox to protect himself or a good enough airspeed to be mobile in the air.

 

[NotLiquid]

He doesn't have a hitbox to protect himself or a good enough airspeed to be mobile in the air.

Feels like it's somewhat mitigated by his ability to spinshot though. Depending on where he is on the stage he can theoretically shift over to the furthest ledge and, if necessary, even induce a ledge get up option since he has plenty of those.

 

[soniczx123]

Feels like it's somewhat mitigated by his ability to spinshot though. Depending on where he is on the stage he can theoretically shift over to the furthest ledge and, if necessary, even induce a ledge get up option since he has plenty of those.

That is true, and it's one of his only great options in the air. The issue is that we sacrifice all stage control just to get back on the stage and give them a footing. Besides, spinshot also takes away our jump, so if we are hit after using it, it's gonna be bad.

 

[TriTails]

Probably not related, but does someone still have a link to that huuuge wall of text SolidSense made like, a year ago (two?) when they were basically explaining 'How to Smash 101' to a rookie that happened to go to this thread?

There were some really useful things inside there. Lots of fundamentals stuffs for me to peruse IIRC.

Yeah. I know I should've saved it or something. But I think it was in my hard disk that crashed a year ago. That, or past me was being a derp and didn't save it. Probably the latter.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He doesn't have a hitbox to protect himself or a good enough airspeed to be mobile in the air.

His actual air speed is among the highest; it's his air acceleration that kinda neuters his mobility.

 

[soniczx123]

His actual air speed is among the highest; it's his air acceleration that kinda neuters his mobility.

Sorry, your right there.

 

[HoSmash4]

That is true, and it's one of his only great options in the air. The issue is that we sacrifice all stage control just to get back on the stage and give them a footing. Besides, spinshot also takes away our jump, so if we are hit after using it, it's gonna be bad.

Pretty sure every character has it tough if they lose their double jump...

Even have it harder as their 60+ FAF side kicks can be very easily predicted if its one of their only options

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Meanwhile can just use Rush, then either fall back on it (with an airdodge or his slow DAir), or land with Leaf Shield to mix his momentum...

But yeah, even MArio can have trouble landing at times.

 

[Nu~]

Meanwhile can just use Rush, then either fall back on it (with an airdodge or his slow DAir), or land with Leaf Shield to mix his momentum...

But yeah, even MArio can have trouble landing at times.

If you create a target for exactly where you're going to land, why wouldn't the opponent just stand by Rush and smack you when you touch it/get near it

 

[TDK]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UDmyg86T3NzLINOOzXL0y5Wbo/edit#gid=1393760298

Someone's made a spreadsheet of all the Japanese players going to EVO so far. To my knowledge, this is the international debut of ikep .

 

[Y2Kay]

To those who are confused: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/knuckles

also it's April Fools losers.

 

[TDK]

I thought this has to do with Knuckles being finished in the game that shall no be named?

I love the colour, but I really don't like Knuckles. Especially his more recent appearances.

 

[Radical Larry]

I thought this has to do with Knuckles being finished in the game that shall no be named?

I love the colour, but I really don't like Knuckles. Especially his more recent appearances.

At least you didn't get his shoddy early art like I did.

 

[Das Koopa]

MARCH WRITE-UP (By Das Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero Destroyer)

A lot has changed with the release of 1.1.7. Familiar characters like Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Cloud (who had taken up a large chunk of the results) were all scrapped in favor of a more streamlined roster. Fox reigns supreme on the current Tier List, with buffs to his Reflector and a few new movement options due to something called "wavedashing" and increased viability of dash dancing. I'm of the opinion that this will not matter much long term, but it's a thing that'll keep Fox at the top in the meantime. He's not honest anymore though tbh.

STILL ON TOP

Sheik and Marth were big survivors of the mass purge that caused about 90% of the playerbase to riot and vandalize NoA's property. MKLeo, despite not having a Cloud now, has demonstrated how solid 1.1.7 Marth is under the watchful training eye of Mew2King.

EGGS-ELENT

Yoshi, unlike his 1.1.6 incarnation, is not a waste of space and isn't total garbage trash. I've heard of some Japanese hidden boss who mains a solid Yoshi. I expect him to probably top 3 or top 8 at a major at some point. I think he's "amsa" or something. He placed Top 8 in Japan at some point so he must be good.

THE NEW BAYONETTA?

The inclusion of Ice Climbers has been an extremely controversial issue. They have a powerful infinite off of one grab. The reaction to Icies players (such as 9B literally being drowned in salt by some crazy SoCal player during 2GGC: Japan Saga, RIP) has been a source of a lot of community discussions. The bright side for me: Texas isn't garbage anymore. An up and coming Icies main called "Wobbles" from the DFW area is making waves. Actually, he made waves because he punched a wall, but he's pretty good at Smash, too.



With developments like PuffBuff and Mewtwo nerfs now in the meta, we can expect further meta shifts in the future that I will discuss later.

 

[ARGHETH]

MARCH WRITE-UP (By Das Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero Destroyer)

A lot has changed with the release of 1.1.7. Familiar characters like Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Cloud (who had taken up a large chunk of the results) were all scrapped in favor of a more streamlined roster. Fox reigns supreme on the current Tier List, with buffs to his Reflector and a few new movement options due to something called "wavedashing" and increased viability of dash dancing. I'm of the opinion that this will not matter much long term, but it's a thing that'll keep Fox at the top in the meantime. He's not honest anymore though tbh.

STILL ON TOP

Sheik and Marth were big survivors of the mass purge that caused about 90% of the playerbase to riot and vandalize NoA's property. MKLeo, despite not having a Cloud now, has demonstrated how solid 1.1.7 Marth is under the watchful training eye of Mew2King.

EGGS-ELENT

Yoshi, unlike his 1.1.6 incarnation, is not a waste of space and isn't total garbage trash. I've heard of some Japanese hidden boss who mains a solid Yoshi. I expect him to probably top 3 or top 8 at a major at some point. I think he's "amsa" or something. He placed Top 8 in Japan at some point so he must be good.

THE NEW BAYONETTA?

The inclusion of Ice Climbers has been an extremely controversial issue. They have a powerful infinite off of one grab. The reaction to Icies players (such as 9B literally being drowned in salt by some crazy SoCal player during 2GGC: Japan Saga, RIP) has been a source of a lot of community discussions. The bright side for me: Texas isn't garbage anymore. An up and coming Icies main called "Wobbles" from the DFW area is making waves. Actually, he made waves because he punched a wall, but he's pretty good at Smash, too.



With developments like PuffBuff and Mewtwo nerfs now in the meta, we can expect further meta shifts in the future that I will discuss later.

Today's going to be fun.

 

[ぱみゅ]

MARCH WRITE-UP (By Das Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero Destroyer)

A lot has changed with the release of 1.1.7. Familiar characters like Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, and Cloud (who had taken up a large chunk of the results) were all scrapped in favor of a more streamlined roster. Fox reigns supreme on the current Tier List, with buffs to his Reflector and a few new movement options due to something called "wavedashing" and increased viability of dash dancing. I'm of the opinion that this will not matter much long term, but it's a thing that'll keep Fox at the top in the meantime. He's not honest anymore though tbh.

STILL ON TOP

Sheik and Marth were big survivors of the mass purge that caused about 90% of the playerbase to riot and vandalize NoA's property. MKLeo, despite not having a Cloud now, has demonstrated how solid 1.1.7 Marth is under the watchful training eye of Mew2King.

EGGS-ELENT

Yoshi, unlike his 1.1.6 incarnation, is not a waste of space and isn't total garbage trash. I've heard of some Japanese hidden boss who mains a solid Yoshi. I expect him to probably top 3 or top 8 at a major at some point. I think he's "amsa" or something. He placed Top 8 in Japan at some point so he must be good.

THE NEW BAYONETTA?

The inclusion of Ice Climbers has been an extremely controversial issue. They have a powerful infinite off of one grab. The reaction to Icies players (such as 9B literally being drowned in salt by some crazy SoCal player during 2GGC: Japan Saga, RIP) has been a source of a lot of community discussions. The bright side for me: Texas isn't garbage anymore. An up and coming Icies main called "Wobbles" from the DFW area is making waves. Actually, he made waves because he punched a wall, but he's pretty good at Smash, too.



With developments like PuffBuff and Mewtwo nerfs now in the meta, we can expect further meta shifts in the future that I will discuss later.

Any thoughts on this new Pichu DLC? Is it promising, or just a wasted character slot? (honestly, $5.99 only to get Pokémon Stadium?).

 

[Diamond Octobot]

If you create a target for exactly where you're going to land, why wouldn't the opponent just stand by Rush and smack you when you touch it/get near it

He could stand near Rush, charge a smash attack, then you would only have to move away slowly. Mega Man has good aerial mobility. And considering that landing on Rush gives you your 2nd jump back, you kinda want to try to fall on it... unless your opponent is covering it, in which case you can just land somewhere else with a Leaf Shield or a lemon to get rid of Rush's landing lag.


...But Knuckes ain't got no time for that, he's the only character in the game who can naturally glide.

 

[TDK]

Okay guys so I've been doing some thonkang in this meta and I decided to release the TDKBR tier list:

So I know some of these are controversial but let me explain them real quick:

Rosalina is the best because she's my main and I only play the best characters. Also Luma can kill at 10 lolol. Have you seen Dabus? He's pretty good.

Diddy Kong has this stupid thing called a hoo-hah that kills at like 80 but he's not my main so he can't be number one. Also, I hear there's this player called Zyro? He's alright, I guess.

Sheik is a ninja, so I've never seen her, but I heard she's good. I dunno though.

Lucario is so good because you can never kill him and he gets aura and rage and he kills as early as luma. I've seen people die from his moves at 0, so he's broken, right?

Greninja is another ninja. This one weilds some sort of gun that shoots plastic bullets, but I don't know much about him besides that so I dunno. People say he's good.

Ness's Back throw is the dumbest thing about smash 4. Luma can't be dumb because I don't use dumb characters.

Falcon Punch is the best move in the game. Every time I hit with it everyone cheers so captain Falcon has to be a good character or people wouldn't cheer for him.

Bowser is like Lucario but he lives longer but he doesn't kill as early and YOU CAN BREAK SHIELDS WITH ONE MOVE! That's unprecedented!

Fox is always good so he has to be good in this game. If Fox isn't good, it's not smash.

Peach is my favourite video game character therefore she's a good character. Ha-cha! Is awesome!

Have you seen how good Yoshi is! He can poop you into an egg over the side of the stage and it's instant death!

Who's this sonic guy? Where's Knuckles?

Wario can kill you at 20 with the fart! And he can bite you over and over! and his poke is unstoppable!

Zero Suit Samus can stun you! That's broken1

I love Pikachu! Did you know, he can up throw you, and then do a down b to kill you? I get it on my neighbours all the time!

You can't ever hit Link! He just stands on the other side of the stage and throws arrows at you and it always works!

Robin's thoron goes over the entire stage! Just charge it all the time and nobody ever hits you! Also, Ganondorf is slower.

Lucina is better than Marth cause Marth but I played awakening so Lucina can be this high.

Mario is good, I think. Really, Mario's just above average.

Dark Pit's Side-B is broken! It kills really early and hits away moves and projectiles! How do you beat this move?

Duck Hunt is a dog and everyone loves dogs so Duck Hunt has to be good. But I don't like Dogs so he can't be that good.

I'M REALLY FEELING IT! His Monandoes are cool but whenever I get him in random, I can never figure out how to get into one other than Jump.

Toon Link is Link, but since I always lose to my neighbour's Link and I've never lost to a Toon Link he can't be that good.

Why would you ever use Pit when Dark Pit has a better side-B?

My brother's Zelda always beats me! Side-B is the best move in the game, followed by Up-B! But I play the best character so Zelda can't be the best.

Meta Knight is also a Ninja, I think. I've never seen him but he was broken in Brawl so even if he was nerfed he's still good.

Pac-Man is good because all the projectile characters have to be good

Villager is awesome! He's totally a serial killer though, so he can't be too awesome. KILLAGER!

Jigglypuff is so good! She has the best recovery in the game, Rollout is really good, and Sing into Rest kills at 30!

Falco is where the characters start to get bad but Falco is like Fox and Fox is good so he can't be that bad

Luigi is a worse Mario, but he can fart sideways so he's not that much worse

Bowser Jr goes Vroom! Also, having all the koopalings? The best.

Samus and Mega Man can shoot things! Do you see how big their b and side-a moves get? How are you suppost to beat that!

Ganondor is so strong! His Warlock punch is unavoidable because you can't hit it out of him and he always turns around so you can't roll away!

Ike is good but he can't shoot you like Link so he isn't as good as Link. Also he's slow and I liked his brawl design more.

Rob is a roboat! What game is he even from?

Palutena has wings that blow you away so you can't get close! AND she has a reflect AND a counter? HOW DO YOU HIT HER?!

I don't like Marth! He's not as good as Ike and his moves don't kill you! Also, I like Lucina more.

Dr. Mario is smarter, but he's not smart enough to run a little faster.

Mr. Game and Watch is stupid! All he ever gets is down throw nine hammer! It kills at 0! But I'm still mad because one time my brother got 3 of those against me in a set so as revenge I'm making Mr. Game and Watch a bad character.

King Dedede lives forever! And that's all! He can't get close enough to take advantage of that.

You can GRAB Kirby out of Rock now? This character's awful!

Wii Fit Trainer was good until I got 9 hammered three times by my brother as her. She sucks!

What does Donkey Kong even do anyways?

Charizard is terrible! He's the most overrated Pokémon in existence?

If Little mach gets grabbed once he's dead no matter what! Why would you ever pick him! Oh, and his side-b instantly kills you if you use it!

Olimar is the worst! Whenever me or ome of my friends use him, he sucks!

What's a Bayonetta?

Spoiler

This was my first ever tier-list for Smash 4, dating way back to March 2015. As you could tell, this was really biased and casual. I kinda knew what tournaments were, but not really. Figured what way to trigger everyone that doesn't use DLC than by acting like the noob I was two years ago? I'm 90% sure this was close to my actual reasoning, too.

I can't believe this is my 2K...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've been trying to main knuckles and charizard at the same time...isn't going so well. Might just do solo knuckles...

 

[L9999]

Of all the April Fools themes they could have chosen they picked Knuckles...And I got the worst art of them all.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Really? I like it. Very retro. Like the original game where he was released.

 

[TDK]

Oh, by the way: Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood was not a bad game. I liked it a lot!

 

[Das Koopa]

Any thoughts on this new Pichu DLC? Is it promising, or just a wasted character slot? (honestly, $5.99 only to get Pokémon Stadium?).

i tried maining pichu but my copy is bugged, he keeps taking damage whenever i use attacks

 

[ARGHETH]

i tried maining pichu but my copy is bugged, he keeps taking damage whenever i use attacks

I think that's just Pichu. Sakurai apparently decided that a self-damaging character was a great idea even though they removed rage.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I max rage crossup hoohah'd a Sheik at 35% today.
Why would anyone play this awful character?

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, no. This isn't funny. Sorry.

 

[Yikarur]

There is a german national today streamed on www.twitch.tv/geekygoonsquad

Tune in

 

[OverTime]

Yeah, no. This isn't funny. Sorry.

I see you're not chuckling.

That's the spirit!

 

[MistressRemilia]

This theme makes me chuckle and i love it.
Also did anyone consider a ban of Mii Swordfighter in the game? I mean seriously, overwhelmingly good matchups against every other character except Knuckles, abundant in tournament, with almost every PR having 1 to 5 Mii Swordfighter main, and the latest Japanese event just had 5 Mii Swords in Top 8.
We can't let that happen.

 

[TriTails]

hiiiy gaeesss i'm new heerzzz hereeszzz mah ter listzs hlolOLAlololo!!11Q!!

oh haeeyy look the img crashed mah tier list 2 op confirm

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

You either drown in pools like a hero, or stay in Winners long enough to see yourself become a Knuckles main.

 

[Rizen]

I'll be back when the ****-posting stops.

*Is never heard from again*

PS
Alright, Sonic Adventure 2 Knuckles art