Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nu~]

Since when has Kameme sayed he's dropping Mega Man? Didn't he simply say "Thanks Mega Man" sarcastictially after the crew battle or something?

Thought he thanked mega man "for all the good times", which implies an ending to a chapter.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Thought he thanked mega man "for all the good times", which implies an ending to a chapter.

Yea I think along those lines . Poor guy seemed really disappointed at himself after the tournalent

 

[Laken64]

I believe he'll either go full with as a counter pick to and maybe he might keep around? Ever since EVO 2016 Kameme hasn't been able to replicate his success as in make a top 8 at a major due to people learning the MU and is his best chance to gain higher placings. With this in mind the question is still high tier? With the meta tilting more towards aggression and advantage state, doesn't fall off in that aspect? He has a solid neutral but if any character gets in on him (ect) they do more damage than what he does keeping them out, and outside of footstools and back air edgeguards, can struggle to kill sometimes and his back and up throw only KO at very high %s (back throw the more powerful option) compared to other characters.

 

[freeziebeatz]

I don't see what match ups Abadango needs to cover with . He has a really good and I wish he used him more when he is struggling.

Kameme on the other hand I can understand but I hope he still uses for some match ups. I assume he'll use now. But he also has a pretty good . So who knows.

 

[TDK]

The fact that no Megamans outside of Kameme and occasionally ScAtt (He's really inconsistent though) and even more rarely Smasher1001 have actually emerged is kind of telling. Mega Man himself is a popular character, but he never took off and has been on a decline ever since EVO. It didn't help him that counterplay to Mega Man started developing almost instantly after EVO and Megaman doesn't have any way of getting around it. His matchups have gotten worse over time, too (See: Diddy).

I think Kameme dropping Megaman or relegating him to an occasional counterpick is probably a smart move.

Although, based on a read of his Twitter he's said "One more chance ", so his next tournament might be the last time we ever see it.

 

[Kofu]

Mega Man's kit is well-constructed and he has the tools he needs to play his game. His neutral is oppressive for a lot of characters to deal with. Unfortunately he has a fairly high skill floor (at least for high-level tournament play) which limits his appearances despite his popularity. And, unlike Capcom's other Smash rep, he arguably has fewer tools than the rest of the cast (I know jab, FTilt, and NAir have small functional differences don't kill me). That, along with his lack of conventional CQC tools, give him a real weakness in a metagame where protracted, often lethal combos are the norm and burst conversions and critical (two areas he's lacking in). He plays a gradual grinder, neutral-heavy game that isn't very forgiving.

That said, I still think Mega Man can perform well. His aerial weaving ability is one of the best in the game, and he has a rather good grab for a zoner. I sometimes feel like his best playstyle is simply frustrating the opponent into making mistakes so he can get a kill confirm. To play off of Nobie's post about tournament fatigue, I could see Mega Man being a choice for late in bracket where your opponents are more likely to be mentally drained. Then again, this is coming from my experience fighting against him, and it has some obvious flaws (the Mega Man player may be exhausted as well, and one is more likely to encounter his hard matchups late in bracket).

In any case, I find it interesting that almost all of Kameme's characters (Mega Man, Sheik, Yoshi, Dark Pit) play a very neutral heavy game but struggle to close stocks.

 

[|RK|]

So if all this tweets from various pro players end up true.

ANTi might be dropping as his main
Kameme might be dropping as his main
Abadango is now going to use "for specific matcups"

Mr.R, although gave no mention of dropping . He seemed pretty demoralized and losing confidience in his main after his losses at Civil War



Wow. Civil War really did shake the confidence/faith that many top players had in their mains and playstyles huh?

LOL Civil War was literally like Iron Man vs. Captain America you know? It really affected the Smash storyline.

Well, it *did* end with the heroes splitting up

EDIT: But honestly, I get it. As we've already went over many times, Civil War was THE tournament for characters with the power to kill early. Top 8 doesn't have a single character that doesn't have the power to kill early. Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Link, Bayonetta, ZSS, DK, Ryu.

It seems to have shaken how we think the game should be played. Many are already shifting to "pressure and aggression is better than being defensive," and now they have to contend with the fact that being able to kill may straight up be more important than playing a solid neutral. That's two huge shifts from what we thought this game was just two months ago. And people are finding that in *this* metagame, their characters may not be able to keep up.

Even if they *can* keep up, playing neutral in this game is *exhausting*, especially because early kills mean you have to play it more perfectly than you did in, say, Brawl. I can only imagine how exhausting Mega Man or Sheik are these days.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Idk about you guys, but I feel like when top players try and switch up their mains, they either fail hard and get discouraged again, or succeed greatly, then people adapt, then they fall again. It's super rare for a top player to have the mental fortitude to keep striving after their character switch has failed initially, or to keep succeeding after their initial splash. Has anyone else notice this?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well, it *did* end with the heroes splitting up

EDIT: But honestly, I get it. As we've already went over many times, Civil War was THE tournament for characters with the power to kill early. Top 8 doesn't have a single character that doesn't have the power to kill early. Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Link, Bayonetta, ZSS, DK, Ryu.

It seems to have shaken how we think the game should be played. Many are already shifting to "pressure and aggression is better than being defensive," and now they have to contend with the fact that being able to kill may straight up be more important than playing a solid neutral. That's two huge shifts from what we thought this game was just two months ago. And people are finding that in *this* metagame, their characters may not be able to keep up.

Even if they *can* keep up, playing neutral in this game is *exhausting*, especially because early kills mean you have to play it more perfectly than you did in, say, Brawl. I can only imagine how exhausting Mega Man or Sheik are these days.

Yea the Mr.R vs Captian Zack and Mr.R vs HIKARU matches were good examples. In both cases his losses were because he lost the first stock and could not recover from it
Or he could be dominating natural the entire game, getting huge precent leads then only to lose the stock because Bayo or DK got one or two good conversions.

 

[ARISTOS]

Well, it *did* end with the heroes splitting up

EDIT: But honestly, I get it. As we've already went over many times, Civil War was THE tournament for characters with the power to kill early. Top 8 doesn't have a single character that doesn't have the power to kill early. Rosalina, Captain Falcon, Link, Bayonetta, ZSS, DK, Ryu.

It seems to have shaken how we think the game should be played. Many are already shifting to "pressure and aggression is better than being defensive," and now they have to contend with the fact that being able to kill may straight up be more important than playing a solid neutral. That's two huge shifts from what we thought this game was just two months ago. And people are finding that in *this* metagame, their characters may not be able to keep up.

Even if they *can* keep up, playing neutral in this game is *exhausting*, especially because early kills mean you have to play it more perfectly than you did in, say, Brawl. I can only imagine how exhausting Mega Man or Sheik are these days.

I agree with all you have said.

However, I still think there's room to grow before we completely give in to our offensive overlords. Many players at the top level are still making very poor defensive decisions which lead into very large punishes. As players learn optimal DI and SDI, as well as improve landing patterns and when and when not to do certain actions out of disadvantage, things might not seem quite as explosive.

But man, the shield stun patch was quite something

 

[Rizen]

I've been posting about Link's shield safety for a long time.
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-169#post-21569345
"Link's bow uncharged: 18 FAF 47 damage 5. Full charge 54 FAF 83. Can be held infinitely but not stored.
Boomerang: 27-63 hitbox then wind FAF 46. The early 27 hit is +/- 0 on shield drop and gets better the longer the hitbox is out. Angling throws while hopping around is very useful.
Bomb pull FAF 40 frames. Forward throw is thrown frame 7 FAF 21. Bombs are sheer awesome in many ways like comboing into Fair, planting for stage control, aiding recoveries by refreshing upB and Z drop comboes."
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-194#post-21590580
"Link's Nair and Dair lasting a long time means if he starts them early enough he can time FF to shoot down during the opponent's lag. Nair is +5/+2 weak hit on shield drop. Link can often land to cancel aerials rather than waiting them out (-Dair/Uair) ; it's like 10 or 12 frames of lag when Link chooses to land."
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-37#post-21430042
"He has good reach, low landing lag, high damage for shield stun, Zair, stage control bombs and less-so boomerang and general frame trapping/combo projectiles to help make up for his frame data and mobility. Link can land fairly well in most MUs because bombs and his Fast Fall+low landing lag. He has a lot of weight and power for the long hauls.
The downsides are he doesn't have any combo breakers once he is in a combo, faster characters inside his disjointed sword safety, zone force Link to constantly be adjusting his spacing, often retreating as he fights, he loses to top tiers and doesn't have any "win buttons". He's also very hard to play well due to multitasking projectiles and his passive aggressive fighting style.

Link doesn't get destroyed but he isn't a great counter pick either."

Sorry I can't quote a locked thread.

 

[Shaya]

ZeRo, MKLeo, M2K probably most Meta Knight mains in general, most "high" level players who switched to Cloud (maybe Bayo too; Salem mained Sheik for example) who now have top level results, etc.

 

[ARGHETH]

Idk about you guys, but I feel like when top players try and switch up their mains, they either fail hard and get discouraged again, or succeed greatly, then people adapt, then they fall again. It's super rare for a top player to have the mental fortitude to keep striving after their character switch has failed initially, or to keep succeeding after their initial splash. Has anyone else notice this?

I mean, there's quite a few top players who switched mains and continued to succeed... Zero switched from Diddy to Sheik (and then back to Diddy), Nairo went from Pit to ZSS, M2K and Tweek switched to Cloud, a bunch of people switched to Bayo and did well (Saj, Salem, Pink Fresh, 9B, etc).

 

[outfoxd]

So is smash 4 becoming the aggressive and spectator friendly game people assumed it wouldn't be or should we see what happens?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So is smash 4 becoming the aggressive and spectator friendly game people assumed it wouldn't be or should we see what happens?

It appears to be making a shift to that direction but this can be attributed to top players simply getting better at making the most of thier advantage state and getting better overall, which is causing games to end quicker. I sure wouldn't mind a more offensive based game but the trend needs to continue for more tournaments before it's safe to make that call.

 

[Shaya]

We'll be going through a cycle of offense beating previously solid defensively oriented set plays and then further development of defensive strategies being pushed to counter those for the rest of time.

Also just because a lot of damage is happening in advantage state, doesn't exactly mean things are 'aggressive'. Spectator friendly for sure though.

 

[Ulevo]

Bayonetta is a reasonable pick for Abadango to play. Historically he has shown to be adept at picking up characters with intricate but damaging set ups, and Meta Knight as a secondary is not good for Mewtwo. Diddy is the worst match up for both characters, they both struggle against Fox, Meta Knight might do slightly better versus Cloud but not enough to merit using over a Mewtwo as proficient as his, and the match ups Meta Knight excels at Mewtwo does just fine.

Bayonetta is a better pick up against Diddy, Fox, and fits Abadango's approach to character optimization.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

So, isn't a big factor that we're all ignoring in this more aggressive meta the exclusion of Duck Hunt? When the most defensive legal stage is gone, of course characters and players that rely on aggression are going to succeed more.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Do not think this has been covered yet said But ZeRo is participating in the Latest Igniton.. and he is using mostly

Just How many players are either picking a new main or sub now after Civil War?!


Wonder the reason, just using to try different characters? or maybe use Lucina for some of Diddy's harder MU's as opposed to Sheik?

 

[ARGHETH]

Do not think this has been covered yet said But ZeRois participating in the Latest Igniton.. and he is using mostly

Just How many players are either picking a new main or sub now after Civil War?!


Wonder the reason, just using to try different characters? or maybe use Lucina for some of Diddy's harder MU's as opposed to Sheik?

Seems to be either practicing Lucina for Ally, or just using a secondary because it's a local. He went Lucina for everyone except for Walrus (Bayo), and, more notably, Ned.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Finally got down to watching Mr. R vs Hikaru.

Set wasn't really indicative of the matchup in any way. Mr. R seemed to be playing really badly and made as many input errors and bad choices as a guy playing on stream for his first time. Overshielding and not reacting to certain moves on time, accidental grenades, missed bouncing fish inputs on edgeguards and throw follow-ups, etc. Unfortunately, I can't attest to how well Hikaru was playing, as I don't play or watch DK.

Takeaway would be the things most of us already know about it. Both characters have ridiculous advantageous states in the matchup. DK with raw damage and kill ability and Sheik with how far she can take each hit and force DK in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios.

Set was pretty entertaining regardless. I enjoy watching and playing this matchup, but think it's either 6:4 Sheik favour or one of the worse 55:45s.

 

[L9999]

Do not think this has been covered yet said But ZeRo is participating in the Latest Igniton.. and he is using mostly

Just How many players are either picking a new main or sub now after Civil War?!


Wonder the reason, just using to try different characters? or maybe use Lucina for some of Diddy's harder MU's as opposed to Sheik?

I don't doubt ZeRo's neutral or spacing, but all of those whiffed F-Smashes made me cry.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I remember ZeRo saying a long while back after Marth and Lucina's buff's, that he'd be using Marth a lot more.

And here we are, he's using Lucina... *sad face*

But Marth or Lucina; without cutting too deep into this discussion again, I'm from the breed of people who believe Marth and Lucina can effectively handle any MU the other can - it's honestly all about preference.

So with that in mind, perhaps it makes sense him using Marth or Lucina for a few MU's. Perhaps he doesn't like the Diddy:Mario MU, of which Marth and Lucina handle quite well.

Could just be that, or him using her because it's not a super serious tournament. We've seen top players use other characters they like at smaller tournaments for fun, so we'll see.

However, there were many times during that set when I saw ZeRo space many important moves at tipper range, so I do think he could do it with Marth, because he seems to have a good grasp of their range for tipper hitboxes (notable example at 5:17 - this would have ended the game). Regardless...

To be honest, if we're talking about characters top players sometimes use, I want to see the ZeRo Falcon more. When he bought him out vs Tsu at Frostbite, it was suuuuuper hype.

Besides, can ZeRo really claim to be the best Falcon in the world now? I don't think so! Prove us wrong ZeRo!

 

[ARGHETH]

And here we are, he's using Lucina... *sad face*

But Marth or Lucina; without cutting too deep into this discussion again, I'm from the breed of people who believe Marth and Lucina can effectively handle any MU the other can - it's honestly all about preference.

So with that in mind, perhaps it makes sense him using Marth or Lucina for a few MU's. Perhaps he doesn't like the Diddy:Mario MU, of which Marth and Lucina handle quite well.

Could just be that, or him using her because it's not a super serious tournament. We've seen top players use other characters they like at smaller tournaments for fun, so we'll see.

However, there were many times during that set when I saw ZeRo space many important moves at tipper range, so I do think he could do it with Marth, because he seems to have a good grasp of their range for tipper hitboxes (notable example at 5:17 - this would have ended the game). Regardless...

Zero should probably try Marth in tournament; he knows how to space their moves, so it's probably worth a try.

 

[Locke 06]

It should be noted that Kameme rose to prominence with megaman once he consistently landed footstools to kill. It became a semi-reliable kill setup in many matches and lent itself to free MB>BAir fishing since nobody wanted to be around his shield when he had a MB in hand. As far as I've watched him, he's not one to grind out matches with megaman. He's one to go for falling up airs, metal blade heavy, and BAir kills.

Playing megaman is tough over a long tournament.


Edit: Missed some messages due to having them on ignore. Megaman's kit has plenty to make up for his "lack of" advantage state. His ledge trapping and corner pressure are outstanding, and he can be extremely punishing with select moves. Saying there's no counterplay to learning how to deal with his neutral is dumb, because his neutral has built in counterplay. His weaknesses are right next to his biggest strengths, which is the sign of a good character.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Diddy is the worst match up for both characters

I'm pretty sure Sonic is MK's worst MU.

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo likes using Lucina, and has said as much for a while. Yes, Lucina specifically. He also believes she's top tier, and likes a couple of her unique properties. So I don't expect the Marth from him at all.

 

[Luco]

Update on our tournament, Expand Gong, it's coming up this weekend, there's a stream (https://www.twitch.tv/uowvga) and I wanna say for East coast it's a 10PM start and for West Coast 7PM. Tune in for fun times. <3

On a separate note, it makes sense that top players 'appear' to have bad disadvantages, seeing as the whole point of being in disadvantage is having less options to choose from / having more of your options covered by a player who is good at option coverage / playing in advantage.

The more options you remove, the easier it is for top players to look 'bad' in that circumstance. Knowing heaps about the game can still get you killed at 50% because you got pressured correctly.

 

[Rizen]

On a separate note, it makes sense that top players 'appear' to have bad disadvantages, seeing as the whole point of being in disadvantage is having less options to choose from / having more of your options covered by a player who is good at option coverage / playing in advantage.

The more options you remove, the easier it is for top players to look 'bad' in that circumstance. Knowing heaps about the game can still get you killed at 50% because you got pressured correctly.

Adding to this, top players are probably seen playing other top players who are very skilled in advantage so being on the receiving end is extra dangerous.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm pretty sure Sonic is MK's worst MU.

Sonic is primarily just annoying, and if he has a lead and wants to keep it then it can be difficult. But Sonic has a recovery that is vulnerable, he is not good with landings, and he has poor overall hit boxes. Sonic is also easy to juggle and ladder, and combos work better on Sonic. Sonic also lacks a consistent way to kill Meta Knight.

Diddy is much more difficult.

 

[Nu~]

YES☺️ practice Shulk😏

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) March 30, 2017

Kameme is gonna start using shulk??

Now THIS is exciting.

 

[Frihetsanka]

YES☺️ practice Shulk😏

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) March 30, 2017

Kameme is gonna start using shulk??

I think I can see the future...

He's Actually High Tier! - Shulk Analysis (1.1.6) - Super Smash Bros Wii U - TSM ZeRo

 

[blackghost]

Is aba picking up bayo as a main or asomething a secondary?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Is aba picking up bayo as a main or asomething a secondary?

From what his tweet said, it looks like he is picking Bayo as a secondary and/or counterpick. However history has shown that secondary/pocket Bayo's have not been all that successful.

But, Abadango has always been a player able to use a variety of different characters with good results, so maybe Bayo will be a good pick for him

 

[Wintermelon43]

YES☺️ practice Shulk😏

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) March 30, 2017

Kameme is gonna start using shulk??

Now THIS is exciting.

Wait, so Kameme's possibly dropping Mega Man..... for Shulk???????

That doesn't make any sense, Shulk is still hard to use (Similar to Mega Man) and Mega Man is much better than Shulk. Maybe he plans on Co-maining the two or using Shulk as a secondary or something? idk, but I feel like he would do worse if anything if he switched to Shulk instead.

 

[T4ylor]

I just read the single tweet, so what makes Kameme look serious about Shulk? He did use the smirk emoji after all

 

[Thinkaman]

We'll be going through a cycle of offense beating previously solid defensively oriented set plays and then further development of defensive strategies being pushed to counter those for the rest of time.

Well, this is very true but I think the overall arc of history has bent towards Smash 4 becoming more aggressive. All versions of Smash have had easier execution of core defensive options than offensive, such that long-term mastery tends to push things towards aggression and faster games. Very few developments--mostly planking and Brawl Sonic--worked against this trend in a noticeable way.

In spite of nerfs to KO capabilities of commonly used top characters + fewer SDs, Smash 4 games are still ending faster than every before. You could also blame some of this on offensive buffs to low-tiers or people playing more high-tiers, but those arguments sort of cancel each other out and I don't think either really explains what's in front of us.

I think the epitome of this trend is watching John Number's WFT from Civil War compared to Wave's historically campy playstyle, or just the very gradual mastery of 2-frame punish options across the board.

Also just because a lot of damage is happening in advantage state, doesn't exactly mean things are 'aggressive'. Spectator friendly for sure though.

Mm, agreed. Aggressiveness is really a metric of the neutral, rather than advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

YES☺️ practice Shulk😏

— R2G｜kameme/かめめ (@kameme8808) March 30, 2017

Kameme is gonna start using shulk??

Now THIS is exciting.

Damn, this boy putting the "meme" in Kameme.

I'd take this with a grain of salt. Even though Kameme has a Shulk (as we saw at UGC low tiers), it'd make no sense for him to start using a strictly worse character over Mega Man. Shulk is also a **** secondary.

 

[Locke 06]

Well, this is very true but I think the overall arc of history has bent towards Smash 4 becoming more aggressive. All versions of Smash have had easier execution of core defensive options than offensive, such that long-term mastery tends to push things towards aggression and faster games. Very few developments--mostly planking and Brawl Sonic--worked against this trend in a noticeable way.

In spite of nerfs to KO capabilities of commonly used top characters + fewer SDs, Smash 4 games are still ending faster than every before. You could also blame some of this on offensive buffs to low-tiers or people playing more high-tiers, but those arguments sort of cancel each other out and I don't think either really explains what's in front of us.

I think the epitome of this trend is watching John Number's WFT from Civil War compared to Wave's historically campy playstyle, or just the very gradual mastery of 2-frame punish options across the board.




Mm, agreed. Aggressiveness is really a metric of the neutral, rather than advantage.

I would say it's much harder to perfectly execute defense than it is to perfectly execute offense in this game due to how difficult and inconsistent buffering actions is with relation to shield stun and shield lock.

Things like frame perfect jump airdodge, upsmash OoS, or even DI down and away & shield without rolling/spotdodging are unnecessarily difficult and cause a lot of "pseudo safety." Without a recording feature, it's easier (and more "fun" to most competitors) to perfect offensive execution. Very few people platform shield drop out of blockstun, for example.

 

[|RK|]

I wouldn't call shield dropping defensive per-se. It is a defensive action, yes. But it's not about avoiding being hit or looking for that ideal moment for a hit. It's a punish option. You're always going to use defensive actions as part of an offensive gameplan - it's not just about running into your opponent's attacks headfirst. It's - to put it as Pierce described it - putting your focus on pressuring your opponent, doing damage, and ending their stock above other things.