Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[my_T]

Ah I forgot all about the Japanese Nesses. Are they examples of Bayonetta winning? Because as far as the American ones I find at a high level it's mostly Ness winning. I believe you need a decent sample size of both characters winning at high level play to truly analyze a MU from both sides to get a good idea of who wins.

In regards to America and Japan, there's very little top level examples of Ness vs Bayo. Salem, Zack, 9B, and Ikep are the best Bayos out there and there's not much footage of them playing the Ness MU, at least not of FOW and Shakys caliber.

Skill levels/gaps have too much of an impact on the outcome of a set. Example, S1 3-0'd that Rosa player but Shaky got 3-0'd by Falln.

I think the MU is slightly in Bayo's favor but I won't make my final judgement until I see more top level footage

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Glad people finally wisened up to Mario not being that amazing MU spread wise. Took about half a year of me saying it repeatedly.
OT: Which type of advantage do you value more and why? The ability to hit the opponent just right with certain moves in the right position and instantly kill them at low percents() or the ability to extend advantage for long periods of time by pinning the opponent and convert massive damage off of it()?

Both.



not massive damage necessarily for pinning but good enough for it to hurt. Fairly consistent 25- maybe 45% is fine by me.

 

[ARGHETH]

So regarding Civil War, I did a bit of comparing on the current tier list, using the top 49 as an indicator for the highest ranked characters who didn't place at all, as followed from highest to lowest in the B and C tier, tiers that should have at least 1 placing rep...More likely B:

B:(6 spot gap)
C:(3 spot gap)

So here are some big losers at Civil War too. Understandably for Toon Link,his rep in Hyuga is AFK atm.

Bowser had someone in pools play him, Final Boss, but lost to a Ganondorf.

I don't know if Yoshi was used in pools either.


So as you all know, this leaves the winner of biggest failure of Civil War: Corrin.

We all said it right away about this tier list upon release, Corrin is FAR too high atm. I think him and Falcon switching spots on the tier list next lost would be a perfect placement, actually. He's a slow, but strong buttoned...With a mediocre neutral bar Lance if timed right (otherwise leaving you well open) and some nice range.

Cosmos, Ryuga, Frozen, and YOC weren't there, Ryo and Earth didn't use him (AFAIK), and generally the only Corrin present at Civil War was...Zion. lol.
Considering Zan attended, I'd actually say Toon Link actually had better representation than Corrin.

 

[L9999]

In regards to America and Japan, there's very little top level examples of Ness vs Bayo. Salem, Zack, 9B, and Ikep are the best Bayos out there and there's not much footage of them playing the Ness MU, at least not of FOW and Shakys caliber.

Skill levels/gaps have too much of an impact on the outcome of a set. Example, S1 3-0'd that Rosa player but Shaky got 3-0'd by Falln.

I think the MU is slightly in Bayo's favor but I won't make my final judgement until I see more top level footage

I know you don't like Ness but you can't be that ignorant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v63-vNpLcOM&t=72s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kul2t_ERAo8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gdlx_IR4_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjf8aZeBFyM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE4y2eiFzC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Mvb0HVBAM

There is your footage. Didn't list FOW VS JK or S1 VS Badr because they play all the time. I couldn't find Captain Zack VS SS or Shaky matches.

 

[Minordeth]

Everyone should go back and watch NinjaLink's analysis of Civil War. If not all of it, then the key sets. Some easily noticeable takeaways:

- Most top players are inconsistent to terrible in disadvantage.

- Most top players observed had a tendency to try to get back to the stage and advantage as quickly as possibly, even if it meant poor DI or bypassing better options (I.e. Staying on the edge of the smashville platform for safety, rolling toward the opponent on the top BF platform instead of going to the opposite side to reset, etc)

- Zero lost for a variety of reasons, but most noticeably because he failed to DI most of Luhtie's key Uair strings properly and probably banned the wrong stages. The speculation there is that because Luhtie is a "nobody" that Zero underestimated him and got tilted - demonstrated by an almost certainly salty run back to Battlefield.

- Locus also nearly lost because his DI against ZSS Uair strings was terribad.

- ESAM has a bad habit of airdodging on defense, and seems lost on what to do, possibly due to the fact that Pika had excellent disadvantage built in. It leads to him personally losing to Ally quite a bit, and gave the first game of his set with Ally away even though he had a solid lead.

- T seemed completely lost in the Rosa MU, and specifically the Dabuz MU. Ninja Link went over the options Link has in the Rosa MU, but it became clear that Dabuz got into T's head.

- Mr. R, and others, seem unwilling to camp when necessary and approach when they don't need to, or to put on pressure when appropriate. For instance Zack's Bayo's "planking" was really only punished once, and Sheik has easy ways to harass copious button pressing.

The main takeaway I got was that in a game with a relatively small skill gap, decision making is more important than anything else. And that includes deciding how you will play defense when you get hit.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

How exactly can you tell good DI from bad DI?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

- Most top players are inconsistent to terrible in disadvantage.

That has actually been a somewhat well established fact in this thread for a while now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That has actually been a somewhat well established fact in this thread for a while now.

Couldn't that also be a case of top players being really good at keeping their opponent in disadvantage?

 

[sups48]

I would agree. seems to fit this description. Use or or or in pools, then use , , in top 16/32 to beat all the ///// you'd find later to alleviate this.

I cant speak for Rosa but Mewtwo is not easy to play and the mind set to play him has to be rock solid cause if your not you will get titled cause you died at 70 to a random bair.

While you may not press as many buttons as sheik and pika you'll get punished for making a mistake a lot harder.

 

[Minordeth]

That has actually been a somewhat well established fact in this thread for a while now.

Yeah, I know, but I felt it worth reiterating now given that it was so prominent (again) at the most stacked tournament in the games lifespan. Plus, new lurkers/upcoming players read this thread occasionally, and defensive play gets lost sometimes amidst the Marcina tangents.

That and the "rage jank RNG" sentiment that's been rolling around ever since. The poor defensive play stands in stark contrast to how developed the punish and advantage meta is.

 

[Guido65]

Was T getting away with too many nairs on shield? I didn't think it was that safe on shield even when FFed. Seemed a bit fraudulent, but I'm fuzzy on its frame advantage.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

According to this document for the shield safety of every character it states that link's nair is +5 on shield drop -2 on out of shield for the clean hit and the late hit is +2 on shield drop and -5 on out of shield.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

According to this document for the shield safety of every character it states that link's nair is +5 on shield drop -2 on out of shield for the clean hit and the late hit is +2 on shield drop and -5 on out of shield.

10 frames of landing lag does that

 

[|RK|]

How exactly can you tell good DI from bad DI?

Watching where they go. In game 5, ZeRo should have been going away from the top platform at first, for example. But he went towards it, and that was a wrap.

 

[|RK|]

Modern thoughts on characters, in order of the Civil War Results Tier List™

1st:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought popular opinion was that Rosalina is a top character who would be top 5 (or higher) if not for Cloud. I'm not sure a tourney where Dabuz and Kirihara performed very well while not having to fight a single Cloud provides much new information to this.

Someone may have already said this, but Kirihara had to go through Komo at Frame Perfect. So I don't think it would have stopped him. Dabuz also took Leo to game 5 at that same event (sadly reverse 3-0d).

 

[Minordeth]

ThefacewhenyourealiseLink'sFairissaferthanSheik'sFair.jpg

huh.

 

[C0rvus]

Let's try to avoid giving Civil War too much weight in terms of character results. It was stacked beyond belief, but that doesn't mean everyone notable was there. As mentioned earlier, Corrin had next to no rep.

 

[blackghost]

How exactly can you tell good DI from bad DI?

Bad di is different that either doesn't change the knock back angle of the orIginal move or did that assists the opponent continue the combo.
It's easy to see with a ryu landing a shoryuken. Regardless of whether someone dies from it or not if they go straight up from bing hit by it they didn't di at all. If they did they will fly at an angle upwards.
Another example is when you see someone hit with a bair and fly at a near 90 degree angle to the left or right.
Ninjalin in his analysis also goes over the di required to escape combo characters like bayo and zss. There are certain strings that aren't guaranteed that are landed way too often in tournament play. That's another of his takeaways.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

ThefacewhenyourealiseLink'sFairissaferthanSheik'sFair.jpg

huh.

Most of links moves are incredibly safe, safer than a most high tiers and a few top tiers
Insanely low landing lag on everything that matters (10 10 and 12, 8 on zair) and low end lag on his tilts making them great pokes/counterpokes

To bad he has terrible cqc

 

[TDK]

I would agree. seems to fit this description. Use or or or in pools, then use , , in top 16/32 to beat all the ///// you'd find later to alleviate this.

Rosalina is not a simple character. Outside of how difficult it is to use her well, there's also the added stress of having to micromanage Luma.

Don't play Rosa unless you're willing to devote a ton of time to her.

 

[HoSmash4]

Sheiks fair really isn't as safe as people make it out to be.

 

[ARISTOS]

ThefacewhenyourealiseLink'sFairissaferthanSheik'sFair.jpg

huh.

Really makes you think

Big difference is the multitude of timings that Sheik can use fair at vs Link's which needs to be spaced within a much tighter time frame.

 

[TraceSSBM/SSB4]

Link went up a few places on the tier list, even to low D, which makes me think he may have the potential to be a solid mid-tier secondary. With T around, on don't think he'll be going down for a while.

 

[Minordeth]

Most of links moves are incredibly safe, safer than a most high tiers and a few top tiers
Insanely low landing lag on everything that matters (10 10 and 12, 8 on zair) and low end lag on his tilts making them great pokes/counterpokes

To bad he has terrible cqc

Really makes you think

Big difference is the multitude of timings that Sheik can use fair at vs Link's which needs to be spaced within a much tighter time frame.

Yeah, I knew his stuff was safe, but actually being positive on shield drop and unpunishable OOS is pretty stellar. It makes sense that he can set up some good frame traps.

Ironically, his jab speed is the same as Ganon.

Link went up a few places on the tier list, even to low D, which makes me think he may have the potential to be a solid mid-tier secondary. With T around, on don't think he'll be going down for a while.

I'm a Link optimist, although less so after his jab was... fixed. T has more actual fundamental skill with the character than the other Links, even if his depth of knowledge seems pretty limited, so there is definitely room to improve.

 

[Yikarur]

Sheiks fair really isn't as safe as people make it out to be.

learn to space :eyes:

 

[RonNewcomb]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

According to this document for the shield safety of every character it states that link's nair is +5 on shield drop -2 on out of shield for the clean hit and the late hit is +2 on shield drop and -5 on out of shield.

Thank you for the doc.

To be clear, his nair doesn't have a late hit, it has sweet/sour spots. Sourspot is on his butt and sets up kill combos north of 100%.

And ok, it wasn't fraudulent, it's just that the frame advantage isn't enough for Link to actually do anything except spotdodge or roll, which T always did. 7f jab and 7f jumpsquat ensures he can't continue aggression after nairing the shield.

Most of links moves are incredibly safe, safer than a most high tiers and a few top tiers
Insanely low landing lag on everything that matters (10 10 and 12, 8 on zair) and low end lag on his tilts making them great pokes/counterpokes

To bad he has terrible cqc

Or, thank goodness he has terrible CQC, else he'd obliterate half the cast.

Big difference is the multitude of timings that Sheik can use fair at vs Link's which needs to be spaced within a much tighter time frame.

Er, the big difference is the jumpsquat and the startup and what you can do after the fair, not the timing of the strike. The timing of landing the move is more lenient for Link because of the second swipe + the fastfall speed. T mixed up the timing a few times to catch early shielddrops for a kill.

Link's fair may be technically safer than Sheik's fair, implying Link can do more things afterward because that's what frame advantage usually implies, but Sheik has more possible followups in her smaller amount of advantage than he does in his larger amount of advantage because his moveset's startup is just that slow.

 

[Krysco]

Thank you for the doc.

To be clear, his nair doesn't have a late hit, it has sweet/sour spots. Sourspot is on his butt and sets up kill combos north of 100%.

And ok, it wasn't fraudulent, it's just that the frame advantage isn't enough for Link to actually do anything except spotdodge or roll, which T always did. 7f jab and 7f jumpsquat ensures he can't continue aggression after nairing the shield.



Or, thank goodness he has terrible CQC, else he'd obliterate half the cast.



Er, the big difference is the jumpsquat and the startup and what you can do after the fair, not the timing of the strike. The timing of landing the move is more lenient for Link because of the second swipe + the fastfall speed. T mixed up the timing a few times to catch early shielddrops for a kill.

Link's fair may be technically safer than Sheik's fair, implying Link can do more things afterward because that's what frame advantage usually implies, but Sheik has more possible followups in her smaller amount of advantage than he does in his larger amount of advantage because his moveset's startup is just that slow.

Minor nitpick but Link's nair does have a late hit along with the early hit having sweet and sour spots. Early hit is from frames 7-8 while the late hit is from 9-31. Does 6% compared to the early hit doing 11 or 9 depending on the sweet or sourspot and has a base knockback of 15 compared to the early hits 22. Angle is still the same at 361 and knockback growth is also the same at 100.

 

[TDK]

Remember that Link's Fair (And Fsmash, though please don't just throw out Fsmashes willy-nilly) is a mixup in and of itself. During a Shorthop, it's possible to cancel Fair after the first or second hits, meaning you have to guess wether Link's going to drop to the ground and try and continue the pressure on the ground or just fair your shield again with his stupidly safe fair. If you drop shield after the first one and he does the second hit of fair, you might just die at 95. (Yes, I've done that to someone). If you hold shield he can try and jab you, grab you, or just retreat. You can also soft toss a bomb to inhibit one of their options such as a roll, or if they try it, they run the danger of rolling into an explosive bomb and potentially dying for it.

 

[|RK|]

Anyone think rage gets far too much flack in this game? Early kills in Smash have been around forever, usually in the form of edgeguards and ledgehogging. Regardless of how often you were beating your opponent in neutral, you could lose a stock instantly by being gimped.

In Smash 4 you see far less gimps as early kills, but now rage exists. Am I crazy for thinking that, despite there being differences, they aren't so excessively different as to be complaining about rage so much?

Personally, I can imagine that if ledgehogging returned to Smash 4, Diddy and Sheik would be ending stocks *very* early with a few chains offstage.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Minor nitpick but Link's nair does have a late hit along with the early hit having sweet and sour spots. Early hit is from frames 7-8 while the late hit is from 9-31. Does 6% compared to the early hit doing 11 or 9 depending on the sweet or sourspot and has a base knockback of 15 compared to the early hits 22. Angle is still the same at 361 and knockback growth is also the same at 100.

Ah, thank you. The above google doc says "weak hit" which is ambiguous. Sour & late are both weak.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/846947142182883329

Um... is ANTi serious?

 

[Thinkaman]

I agree with you on almost everything expect that Bayo is crippled if her death ladder combos are compromised.

Yeah, crippled was the wrong word. You could remove the ladder combo entirely and she'd still be stoutly mid-tier, though mostly due to Witch Time filling in the gaps in her kit.

My point though was that Bayo isn't like Sheik or Diddy; she isn't an infinite bag of tricks, and every bit of counterplay you can master against her big move goes a long way.

What are your current long-term opinions on these characters?

feels like the epitome of "can do all the same stuff but has to work harder."
, man, I just have no idea how his neutral is supposed to compete at top level play--the more I look at the character, the more it looks like the answer is "Don't. Camp until you have limit and use Finishing Touch." Which seems neither compelling nor sustainable.
has always been the other character (besides Falcon) with a top level ceiling, and nothing seems on part to change that. His neutral, anti-shield, and kill confirm tools all exist in a limited capacity, but these things are just too important to high level play. This is why Yoshi's exact opposite DK is able to outperform him, while just having the ding-dong on an otherwise poor character.
better have someone step up to the plate fast, but on paper he does look to be a stone's throw away from Marth. It took time for people to make Marth work, and Corrin has similar tools. A bleh recovery + a bonkers counter are really the only sources of uncertainty for me, on the theory side.
I don't know much about; pretty much just watch Ryo's Ike and think "Yeah, that's an intimidating character when used well." I wonder what his Cloud matchup looks like?

Do you expect to see higher placing by Shulk mains in the future?

I am bullish on Shulk. The character I saw Kome and Nicko playing did not look like they were hitting a ceiling or winning thanks to opponent ignorance, like we see all the time with Bowser Jr. As the gruntwork of figuring out Shulk finally gets settled, we might see more players comfortable with picking him up as well.

Anyone think rage gets far too much flack in this game?

People can and will john about anything. Rage, DLC, custom moves, stock count, coaching, tiers, whatever. Anything to distract from the harsh reality of, well, reality.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/846947142182883329

Um... is ANTi serious?

So if all this tweets from various pro players end up true.

ANTi might be dropping as his main
Kameme might be dropping as his main
Abadango is now going to use "for specific matcups"

Mr.R, although gave no mention of dropping . He seemed pretty demoralized and losing confidience in his main after his losses at Civil War



Wow. Civil War really did shake the confidence/faith that many top players had in their mains and playstyles huh?

 

[TraceSSBM/SSB4]

LOL Civil War was literally like Iron Man vs. Captain America you know? It really affected the Smash storyline.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

LOL Civil War was literally like Iron Man vs. Captain America you know? It really affected the Smash storyline.

Yea if it iin Civil War both Cap and Iron Man were somehow assassinated in the first few issues, and the other A-List heroes got thier asses kicked by lesser known ones before the climax. Lol

 

[FullMoon]

feels like the epitome of "can do all the same stuff but has to work harder."

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by this exactly?

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/846947142182883329

Um... is ANTi serious?

I have to say the video of the Bayonetta dance caught my attention more than the tweet itself =V

 

[TraceSSBM/SSB4]

I kinda like how the Smash Civil War was based off of the Marvel Civil War. Like how they made Ally and his the Winter Soldier and Captain America, (or Captain Canada in Ally's case.) and ZeRo's Iron Man. Although they still could have made it cooler and had all of the players in the crews superheroes from either side.

 

[BSP]

Anyone think rage gets far too much flack in this game? Early kills in Smash have been around forever, usually in the form of edgeguards and ledgehogging. Regardless of how often you were beating your opponent in neutral, you could lose a stock instantly by being gimped.

In Smash 4 you see far less gimps as early kills, but now rage exists. Am I crazy for thinking that, despite there being differences, they aren't so excessively different as to be complaining about rage so much?

Personally, I can imagine that if ledgehogging returned to Smash 4, Diddy and Sheik would be ending stocks *very* early with a few chains offstage.

The way I see it, rage turns what you're supposed to be doing (damaging the opponent trying, trying to knock them out) against you (opponent's attacks do more knockback).

When I get KO'd due to a gimp or to a ledge hog back in brawl, I feel like I got outplayed.

If I get hit by some two hit string into some rage smash attack that barely KOs me, I've still been outplayed. However, part of the reason I died is because....I did what I was supposed to do. Not enjoyable.

 

[Nu~]

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/846947142182883329

Um... is ANTi serious?

ANTi was never committed to a main anyway lol. Remember his "I don't play bad matchups?"

What does surprise me is Kameme potentially dropping mega man. I personally felt that Mega Man would fall hard after counterplay developed, (not the most diverse char) but I didn't think his best main would drop him this soon. He still has a little bit more to offer, I think.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Since when has Kameme sayed he's dropping Mega Man? Didn't he simply say "Thanks Mega Man" sarcastictially after the crew battle or something?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Since when has Kameme sayed he's dropping Mega Man? Didn't he simply say "Thanks Mega Man" sarcastictially after the crew battle or something?

Well he did say he "Thanks Mega man for all good times" in a tweet after Civil War . He also tweeted something about being very disappointed with himself regarding his performance to I think.