Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[my_T]

who else did the Marios lose to other than ?

cant remember who put Zenyou in losers

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Link placing 3rd at the most stacked tournament ever is a huge boost for the character and can't be taken lightly. It's more than many characters supposedly better than him have accomplished.

Also shoutouts to ESAM for showing how laughable it is to place Samus in low tier.

 

[TDK]

who else did the Marios lose to other than ?

cant remember who put Zenyou in losers

8BitMan put Zenyou in losers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

who else did the Marios lose to other than

8BitMan put Zenyou in losers.

Ftr for a top tier character that's an extremely ****ty batch of characters to lose against - all at the same tournament.

 

[TDK]

It just hit me that we're living in a world where Rosalina has won more majors than Sheik and Bayonetta combined in the current patch.

 

[Deleted member]

What is looking like right now in this meta? His future seems pretty uncertain to me these days. If anything I believe + have all right to be considered better than him at this point, at least if we're talking strictly swordsman. But that's besides the main point.

Aside from having an arguably good Sonic MU and good grab reward/CQC, what's really keeping Ike afloat for him to be considered truly viable?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike got that grab reward tho. And them buttons. And better up close. Link has a better neutral.

I cannot see Shulk as better then either one of them.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Another thing that to take away not just from this tournament but overall is


As shes starting to show she probably isnt as bad as people still claim she is. Its not just ESAM but Salem has pulled Samus out a few times recently as well (He won a FL tournament using only Samus a few weeks ago) and of course the efforts of the pure Samus mains like Afro and IcyMist. Shes getting a few decent wins and placements and with two Top level players pulling her out more often we are getting to see what shes capable of. Im curious as to how high she can climb up the tier list if we keep seeing her, of course thats dependent on people learning the MU (Because honestly how many people are as versed in this MU?) Hopefully she doesnt suffer the way Mega Man did after his breakout tournament and subsequent learning of the MU.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shulk's honestly just straight up weird. I can never tell if he is fundamentals: the character or just complete gimmick jank.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samus has burst range conversions. She can't be low tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright guys, I'm finally back! Did I miss anything?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

8BitMan put Zenyou in losers.

Ouch.. Isn't Mario considered one of R.O.B's worst MU's right after ZSS and Bayo?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Ftr for a top tier character that's an extremely ****ty batch of characters to lose against - all at the same tournament.

TBF, Mario doesn't have the greatest MU spread of the top tiers (although losing to a ROB is kinda pathetic).

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk's honestly just straight up weird. I can never tell if he is fundamentals: the character or just complete gimmick jank.

You definitely need great fundamentals to do well with Shulk. Arts are damned crazy though, even if they don't make up for his frame data. Without Arts he'd utmost be the worst swordsman in the game. They hold the character together and define his playstyle, if you could even confine him to one.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Alright guys, I'm finally back! Did I miss anything?

Nice meme attempt, sir.

Civil War was absolutely amazing.

 

[my_T]

Shulk's honestly just straight up weird. I can never tell if he is fundamentals: the character or just complete gimmick jank.

Shulk has a sword and there's a variety of characters that don't like swords. Sword characters in general demand at least a little respect in any MU because of their range and disjoint.

On another note, I think Shulk players get too complacent in a particular monado. I think they would do better if they switched monados more often. This seems difficult to pull off tho.

 

[Nobie]

Some post-Civil War thoughts:

Rage

In general, Rage was the winner of this tournament.

The grand Smash 4 heavyweight experiment more or less works. By that, I mean how in past games the bigger, slower characters were in practice less durable than their lighter counterparts because they could never land a hit, and when they did, the reward just wasn't there. Rage has its ups and downs, but for the most part we saw it working as intended, especially with Hikaru vs. Mr. R. If you watch that match, it goes from feeling like Sheik is totally unfair to Donkey Kong is totally busted. Players have to adapt to rage percentages on both ends.

I know people accept Rage more now, even if not everyone's a fan of it, but I'm seeing it less as a "you get rewarded for losing" and more as "a consolation prize for trying to get in."

Link

For another character who benefited from Rage, there's Link. T showed how scary the character can be when Link's at a high percent, and it stands in contrast to how a lot of the high and top tiers work. In many cases, they have reliable and powerful setups, and opponents play around those setups. Diddy banana peel into whatever, Ryu up tilt into SRK, Sheik Needles into bouncing Fish. While Link has setups, he also just has raw power on a ton of his basic attacks that actually makes neutral against him kind of scary. F-tilt, fair, I even saw NAIR kill a heavy guy like Captain Falcon. There are other characters like this to a certain extent, notably Mewtwo, but even Mewtwo doesn't feel like it has the variety of kill moves Link does, though Mewtwo's fewer kill options are actually better overall.

Lucario

People might argue whether Sheik is a good or bad matchup for Lucario, but Civil War showed me what truly bad matchups look like for the character. Vs. Sheik might be -1. Vs. Mewtwo is a tentative -1 where Mewtwo's overall superior neutral and good kill power is balanced out by dying to a Lucario back air at 40%. But if you're a character who can just reliably kill Lucario before he reaches 100% or higher, then Lucario looks almost helpless sometimes. The key characters who showed up were Donkey Kong and Ryu, who just ding donged and all-you-can'd Lucario before Aura even mattered. I imagine Bowser can do the same (his pivot grab is probably ultra scary to Lucario), and if Ganondorf were even a smidge better Lucario would be crying.

If Lucario has any kind of meta influence, heavyweights will probably rise as well.

Lucina

I previously talked about how notable it is that some players will actively choose Lucina over Marth, and that it has to say something good about the character. Some of the response was that Lucina's just better as a pocket because she requires less practice.

But now you have Mr. E, a dedicated Marth main, switching to Lucina in Loser's and going on a pretty decent tear. If one of the premiere Marth players thinks Lucina can do something that Marth can't (maybe he wasn't spacing well that day or something), then I think it's worth an even deeper look.

A Sneak Peek at Meta Shifts

I think Civil War showed in one tournament how big a role the metagame can play in dictating tournament success for a character. Dabuz is a fantastic player and he was on fire, but would he have done as well if all of the regular characters that threaten Rosalina weren't wiped out in earlier stages? There are just a few top players who always seem to have Dabuz's number. It's likely why Dabuz doesn't think Rosalina is anywhere close to Top 3. But change the landscape a little bit, remove those primary threats, and now we're reminded of her strengths, and why she can seem so overwhelming to so many characters and players.

 

[Iron Kraken]

My experience in Smash 4 is that all the characters who always seemed like they were great to me when I played against good wifi players *eventually* end up being good in real life too once the right tournament player commits to them.

I always thought Lucario and Samus were beastly from playing against them online and never understood why they didn't have the results to back that up. That's changing now, obviously.

Based on this theory, I'm still expecting the Shulk breakthrough to happen at some point. Call it a hunch. I feel like he's a very difficult character to optimize but there's so much potential there.

 

[The-Technique]

That neuters 90% of the top tiers, who have grabs as the center of their gameplay (Diddy damage rack, ZSS kills,

Rosalina gets molly whopped by ZSS most of the time, just sayin

 

[Iron Kraken]

Rosalina gets molly whopped by ZSS most of the time, just sayin

Ehhhh, Nairo has definitely had Dabuz's number over the years, but I don't think that match up is bad for Rosa at all. Maybe even slightly in Rosa's favor. Whenever I played the matchup I felt like the ZSS had to be a better player than me in order for me to lose. And I don't really see the theory of what would put that match up in Rosa's favor (except for the fact that ZSS's amazing disadvantage often bypasses Rosa's amazing advantage state)

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk has a sword and there's a variety of characters that don't like swords. Sword characters in general demand at least a little respect in any MU because of their range and disjoint.

On another note, I think Shulk players get too complacent in a particular monado. I think they would do better if they switched monados more often. This seems difficult to pull off tho.

They're called Arts, not Monados.

It's been almost three years since the game has been out, guys.

I can agree with you there, though some Shulks just use Arts that suit their playstyle best. M is an aggro Shulk and mainly uses Speed, Buster and always has no fear in regards to usage of Smash but almost never uses Shield.

 

[TDK]

What happened to Sonic at Civil War? I know Wrath and 6WX placed well and Meteor beat Leo, but it felt like Sonic made almost no impact. Is he just not as good as we thought, or was Sonic hurt badly by Komo not playing him at all during singles and KEN not attending?

 

[Guido65]

I don't know if's buttons are really that much better if they're even better then 's but they're 2 completely different characters and Shouldn't be compared in the first place.


On another note about civil war Zss had a very good showing by nairo and marss who both showed her absurdly good disadvantage and advantage state makes her never out of the match.

 

[Iron Kraken]

What happened to Sonic at Civil War? I know Wrath and 6WX placed well and Meteor beat Leo, but it felt like Sonic made almost no impact. Is he just not as good as we thought, or was Sonic hurt badly by Komo not playing him at all during singles and KEN not attending?

You said it yourself. The best Sonic player in the world by far, KEN, wasn't there. Komo is a Cloud main. Wrath and 6WX did fine. I'm not sure what you were expecting. He's still top tier and this tournament doesn't do anything to change that.

 

[|RK|]

They're called Arts, not Monados.

It's been almost three years since the game has been out, guys.

I can agree with you there, though some Shulks just use Arts that suit their playstyle best. M is an aggro Shulk and mainly uses Speed, Buster and always has no fear in regards to usage of Smash but almost never uses Shield.

I kinda like that M doesn't use shield. Maybe because it's extra magnified when using shield art as Kirby, but the mobility cut is huge. Characters like Sheik and Fox can get in pretty much for free when you're in shield, and in a situation where Shulk is about to die, keep away is practically free for the opponent. So I understand M's choice a little bit in that regard.

 

[RonNewcomb]

You definitely need great fundamentals to do well with Shulk. Arts are damned crazy though, even if they don't make up for his frame data. Without Arts he'd utmost be the worst swordsman in the game. They hold the character together and define his playstyle, if you could even confine him to one.

As much as I like swordies and Shulk's generally nice demeanor, I will never play Shulk until

1) I can map Tilts to a dedicated button and Smashes to a different dedicated button, and

2) I can insta-choose a Monado Art by pressing B together with the Jump, Grab, Block, Tilt, or Smash button.

Seriously, pressing B a bajillion times in the heat of battle, only to be killed because Shield Monado is still waiting on button timeout before activating, is for the birds.

 

[|RK|]

Ftr for a top tier character that's an extremely ****ty batch of characters to lose against - all at the same tournament.

I genuinely think Mario is overrated. Still top tier, for certain... but he's nearly as common as Cloud, meaning everyone knows the MU, but he doesn't have strengths that are as overwhelming. It's not surprising for him to lose to any strong player of almost any character, even if he solidly wins the MU.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, okay, listen. @C0rvus seriously, I don't want to come here and find that I've been mentioned when I was offline.

Anyways, you wanted my thoughts about Civil War, then I'll just say how proud I am for T making top 3 with a solo Link in this heavily stacked tournament. This guy singlehandedly showed that Link could make not just top 8, but top 3 in a tournament like this, and showed how competent Link can be, even against characters greater than him. I'm also very proud of Fatality for managing to get Captain Falcon into grand finals, something I've not seen in such a long while in tournaments. Even if those two didn't win, they showed how competent their characters can be.

I think what this tournament will do is pave way for the two characters to grow in their placements in future tier lists, as currently, I expect them rise quite a bit from their current positions, but I don't know by how much.

Now I'm going to leave, because I don't feel like going into a "Bowser isn't top 25" rant.

 

[Yikarur]

"Rosalina not even Top10" they said.
I was always defending Rosalina; when I picked up Rosalina as a secondary people told me "You're too late, the character is on a decline and it's not worth it anymore"

heeeh.

How is Mario a common character tho

 

[soniczx123]

What happened to Sonic at Civil War? I know Wrath and 6WX placed well and Meteor beat Leo, but it felt like Sonic made almost no impact. Is he just not as good as we thought, or was Sonic hurt badly by Komo not playing him at all during singles and KEN not attending?

Sonic sucks.

In all seriousness, Sonic hasn't done so much compared to the top tiers and the rising characters in recent times. I'm not sure if it's cause of Sonic's playerbase not at the same level as the top players or Sonic has a hard time keeping in this meta which is becoming more and more based on punishes.

 

[Cyro_]

Sonic sucks.

In all seriousness, Sonic hasn't done so much compared to the top tiers and the rising characters in recent times. I'm not sure if it's cause of Sonic's playerbase not at the same level as the top players or Sonic has a hard time keeping in this meta which is becoming more and more based on punishes.

I agree with this also Sonic is very easy to read. Are you in the air? Guess whats coming next involving a up-b. Sonic rolling into a ball? Just shield and grab punish.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus has burst range conversions. She can't be low tier.

Lower end of mid-tier with counterpick potential. Ironically Esam beat Ally in a matchup which is even-ish (mario favored my op) and lost to DK in a matchup which is advantageous.
Samus really needs a better homing missile with some trap potential and she would rise dramatically. Here's hoping for the switch Smash!

(I won't hold my breath....)

 

[MistressRemilia]

Sonic sucks.

In all seriousness, Sonic hasn't done so much compared to the top tiers and the rising characters in recent times. I'm not sure if it's cause of Sonic's playerbase not at the same level as the top players or Sonic has a hard time keeping in this meta which is becoming more and more based on punishes.

KEN's low attendance doesn't really help, when he's by far the strongest Sonic, with a gap of skill between him & the 2nd best Sonic ( most likely Komorikiri, but arguable because his Sonic's rusty ) likely to be as big as between Zero & Zinoto.

 

[soniczx123]

I agree with this also Sonic is very easy to read. Are you in the air? Guess whats coming next involving a up-b. Sonic rolling into a ball? Just shield and grab punish.

It's not as simple as that really, but it's the general gist of it lol

 

[Yonder]

Rosalina gets molly whopped by ZSS most of the time, just sayin

I forgot to edit that part out before posting my last Ganondorf bit, sometimes I write draft of my thoughts but the system saves them when I exit out.

My general idea was that Rosa I think is so dominant because she can throw a wrench into grab centric gameplay with Luma, but only if it's super close by. But on the flip side, Rosa is Eve more vulnerable than Mewtwo to ladders because of the tall build, light weight, floaty, and no frame 1 air dodge (M2) or super quick aerial to break.

Top players should be studying the smash corner video " moves to get rid of Luma" if they already aren't for their respective character. There are those secret moves that instant kill Luma like M2's dash attack at the edge for example, regardless of Luma health left.

 

[Kofu]

Lower end of mid-tier with counterpick potential. Ironically Esam beat Ally in a matchup which is even-ish (mario favored my op) and lost to DK in a matchup which is advantageous.
Samus really needs a better homing missile with some trap potential and she would rise dramatically. Here's hoping for the switch Smash!

(I won't hold my breath....)

Samus's moves in general are rather good, there are just a few design flops that make them occasionally unreliable or almost useless (falling out of UAir, Homing Missiles as you mentioned, grounded UTilt being techable as a spike).

Edit: And how did I forget jab? If it linked properly it would be excellent. It still has uses, but it doesn't do what a jab is supposed to do at low percents.

 

[HoSmash4]

Does it really matter who is top 10 atm?

Are all extremely capable characters with not a lot between them, such is the beauty of smash 4 right now. Hell I could argue for fox being 11th because of his fragility and weak results without Larry. But does it really matter?

 

[my_T]

I genuinely think Mario is overrated. Still top tier, for certain... but he's nearly as common as Cloud, meaning everyone knows the MU, but he doesn't have strengths that are as overwhelming. It's not surprising for him to lose to any strong player of almost any character, even if he solidly wins the MU.

Don't worry, people will continue to ignore the fact that he's easily the most inconsistent of the top tiers what with him having 4 notable reps, 3 of which are very active.

People will also ignore the fact that a good chunk of his success from 2 of his mains, ANTi and Ron, is because of high secondary usage.

People will continue to ignore the fact that Zenyou beats top players one week then loses to Randy and friends the next week.

People will continue to ignore the fact that Ally is just better than most players and will accredit all/most of his success to Mario but whenever Zero/Nairo/Dabuz wins it's just Zero/Nairo/Dabuz being good.

People will continue to ignore the fact that Mario has the least dominant MU spread among the top tiers which would explain all the set loses he has at top level from lengthy list of characters:



all have taken at least 2 or more sets off of Mario at top level, might be missing some. as of today have significant amount of set wins over Mario.Then you have some characters that have taken at least one set and/or are considered problematic for Mario:





Despite all of this, many people in the community somehow came to the conclusion that ZSS and Rosa are the ones that are going down.

 

[Rizen]

I might be in a minority on this but I honestly think Ganondorf does really dang well against other heavies. Like some of his better match-ups are against other heavy characters since he can exploit his advantages a lot easier than against other characters.

The only one I strongly disagree with is DK. DK sucks for Ganon; he's like a Ganon with faster, arm-intangible pokes, a better grab and a hoo haw. I hate this MU.

 

[blackghost]

It just hit me that we're living in a world where Rosalina has won more majors than Sheik and Bayonetta combined in the current patch.

Bayonetta and jiggs have the same number of majors. She'll get there but it will take every high level neutral dominant player to either be gone or be avoided due to bracket luck.