Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ziodyne 21]

That's a lotta red hats (and nuts).

And even more spiky haired giant sword weilders and time-slowing umbra witches..

In other news, the newest captian obvious award goes to..me!

 

[Bowserboy3]

This is the tourney I plan to watch spoiler free despite having a tournament at the weekend.

What tournament will you be attending, may I ask?

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ9iZbrmiow

Taternator now has a win over Tyrant and Mr. ConCon with just bowser Jr. This is pretty impressive, and watching the set itself makes me think Bowser Jr can't be written off yet. He's very, very linear, which will hurt him in the long run, but he also has soem powerful options and a solid damage-racking game.

 

[Nah]

A lot of characters in this game have good damage racking ability and "powerful options". Let's not get too excited here.

 

[verbatim]

BJR's item game is pretty unique compared to the rest of the cast and has a lot of depth, but it's kind of let down by the fact that they literally don't get their up b back when you hit them offstage sometimes and their bottom tier grab.

IMO having a bottom tier grab is the easiest way to kill a character's viability. Yoshi and Villager are only kind of viable because of how some of their rediculous options act to offset the inability to punish most things OoS with grab. Yoshi has eggs, incredible shield pressure and shield breaking potential, AND a command grab. Villager has a nearly safe on shield jab, really good cross up aerials, and, again, multiple shieldbreak options.

On the other hand Pacman literally has the single best move in the game against shields (trampoline) and he's still bad because of how bad his tractor beams are.


imo trampoline would be broken on pretty much any top tier.

 

[Nu~]

BJR's item game is pretty unique compared to the rest of the cast and has a lot of depth, but it's kind of let down by the fact that they literally don't get their up b back when you hit them offstage sometimes and their bottom tier grab.

IMO having a bottom tier grab is the easiest way to kill a character's viability. Yoshi and Villager are only kind of viable because of how some of their rediculous options act to offset the inability to punish most things OoS with grab. Yoshi has eggs, incredible shield pressure and shield breaking potential, AND a command grab. Villager has a nearly safe on shield jab, really good cross up aerials, and, again, multiple shieldbreak options.

On the other hand Pacman literally has the single best move in the game against shields (trampoline) and he's still bad because of how bad his tractor beams are.


imo trampoline would be broken on pretty much any top tier.

Ehhh...I wouldn't call trampoline the best move in the game against shields.

It has meager reward, puts you in helpless, is punishable on hit at lower percentages, and doesn't lead into a kill so people can still beat you with smart shield abuse.

Now if it didn't put you in helpless...it'd be the single best move in the game imo.

 

[verbatim]

It's a frame 1 punish if you jump cancel it, meaning you can punish moves in situations that no one else can and can do a lot of options that would be punishable if you didn't have it.

 

[-Tornado-]

Speaking of Bowser...

 

[Nu~]

It's a frame 1 punish if you jump cancel it, meaning you can punish moves in situations that no one else can and can do a lot of options that would be punishable if you didn't have it.

You'd have to factor in jump squat frames too which would make it a frame 6 punish. Still the fastest OoS option in the game, but the bad range limits its use. I do agree that it makes quite a few of your moves a lot safer though (nair on shield -> trampoline is hilarious)

I just wish it was more..."punishing" for all the downsides it has

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ehhh...I wouldn't call trampoline the best move in the game against shields.

It has meager reward, puts you in helpless, is punishable on hit at lower percentages, and doesn't lead into a kill so people can still beat you with smart shield abuse.

Now if it didn't put you in helpless...it'd be the single best move in the game imo.

Well its the single best move in the game vsat least. lolz

 

[Myollnir]

You'd have to factor in jump squat frames too which would make it a frame 6 punish. Still the fastest OoS option in the game, but the bad range limits its use. I do agree that it makes quite a few of your moves a lot safer though (nair on shield -> trampoline is hilarious)

I just wish it was more..."punishing" for all the downsides it has

No, it's frame 1 when done right. Jumpsquat frames can be cancelled by UpB/U-Smash.

 

[Nu~]

No, it's frame 1 when done right. Jumpsquat frames can be cancelled by UpB/U-Smash.

Huh, learn something new everyday.

 

[BSP]

imo trampoline would be broken on pretty much any top tier.

Yeah, it just goes to show how lackluster the rest of Pac-Man's kit is for him to be as bad as he is with a move as ridiculous as the trampoline. Forcing people to jump in a fighting game? Jesus.

It's a frame 1 punish if you jump cancel it, meaning you can punish moves in situations that no one else can and can do a lot of options that would be punishable if you didn't have it.

No, it's frame 1 when done right. Jumpsquat frames can be cancelled by UpB/U-Smash.

From my understanding, when you jump cancel something as fast as possible, you still must endure at least 1 frame of jumpsquat. Otherwise, what are you cancelling from? The same goes for buffered dash grabs I believe.

Also, item tosses cancel jumpsquats too.

Ehhh...I wouldn't call trampoline the best move in the game against shields.

It has meager reward, puts you in helpless, is punishable on hit at lower percentages, and doesn't lead into a kill so people can still beat you with smart shield abuse.

Now if it didn't put you in helpless...it'd be the single best move in the game imo.

This is the reason Pac-Man isn't threatening. Trampoline's reward is minimal at best, it's sad. It's just not enough to convince you to not shield the entire time against the character. That one patch really gutted Pac-Man, it's sad.

I was watching Ginko's Pac-Man vs Nietono's Sheik from SHIG the other day and paid attention to what Ginko got from trampolines at lower %. I already knew this, but actually looking at what happened when Ginko landed lower % trampolines made me sad.

In order to prevent retaliation from Sheik on hit (thanks nerfed opponent jump scaling), Ginko nearly always had to give up stage control when he landed a trampoline. It's a shame when your "reward" for beating shield is to LOSE stage control + be in a neutral situation at best, and this is assuming you didn't get punished on hit.

I need to move on >_>, it makes me sad (angry actually) just thinking about it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That one patch really gutted Pac-Man, it's sad.

What patch?

 

[ARGHETH]

That one patch really gutted Pac-Man, it's sad.

...the one that fixed trampoline sending people through the stage?

 

[Nu~]

...the one that fixed trampoline sending people through the stage?

What patch?

You know how Pac-Man goes higher depending on the color of the trampoline right?

The first ever patch nerfed how high the trampoline sends opponents into the air. It used to send them as high as it would Pac-Man, but now the opponent won't go nearly as high as they would before.

It became so easy to punish him on hit.

 

[Das Koopa]

Pool A1 analysis


Side 1:
ZeRo
DKWill
Zephyr
Xzax


Side 2:
Earth
Jerm
Nurse
Dyr
ImHip

Winner of each side fights each other in Top 96.


Upset potential towards ZeRo largely resides in Top 96 vs. Earth, and I think this is largely dependent on if Top 96 is Bo3 or Bo5. Upsets tend to be easier between skill gaps when less games are played. I'd say ZeRo's chances of being upset in the Top 128/96 is low.

Earth has had issues lately even in the U.S. While his 2016 supermajor performances are noteworthy, he struggles against a lot of tippy-top level players and is highly prone to being upset early into losers early. Jerm and Nurse are noteworthy wildcards - but Dyr and ImHip are big players to look out for.

Dyr and ImHip face off in Top 192 in a set that could likely go either way. In my opinion, Earth would probably lose to Dyr if they faced off, and Dyr may or may not have experience (through friendlies or tournaments) with Myran. I'd give him a good shot regardless since Dyr on his best days borders top 20 level gameplay, and he's increasingly improved over the last several months.

ZeRo has, by all metrics, a totally free bracket. Zephyr isn't bad by any stretch but if Komorikiri, Tweek, and Ned get shredded by ZeRo's Diddy then I don't see how Zephyr stands any chance. Xzax and DKwill present better opportunities to upset ZeRo but I don't see either happening simply because of the large skill gap.

Through Top 96:
ZeRo Upset %: 10%
Earth Upset %: 70%

i'll do this for other pools probably

 

[Gunla]

Das Koopa
Top 96 is best of 5:

Best of 5 for #2GGC Civil War Saga will start at:

Top 12 for doubles

Top 96 for singles

The pool of talent is too deep not to 👍

— 2GG (@2GGaming) March 21, 2017

 

[BSP]

What patch?

...the one that fixed trampoline sending people through the stage?

In addition to what Nu~ said, that same patch nerfed Galaxian damage output by 2%, added ending lag to Pac-Man's Usmash, and increased Hydrant's HP by 1% (causing Pac-Man's Bair and Melon to never instant launch it). This wasn't the first patch though, it was the Wii U release. 1.0.4. I wouldn't expect anyone other than Pac-Mains to have recognized the trampoline change back then, which is why smashwiki still doesn't have it documented despite it being the biggest nerf the character got.

Pac-Man got destroyed on the Wii U drop. 4 major nerfs at once for a character with a whopping 1 main who didn't even win tournaments at the time. The trampoline nerf was the worst because they made his move to beat shield unsafe on hit + essentially no reward for landing it.

 

[Myollnir]

Yeah, it just goes to show how lackluster the rest of Pac-Man's kit is for him to be as bad as he is with a move as ridiculous as the trampoline. Forcing people to jump in a fighting game? Jesus.





From my understanding, when you jump cancel something as fast as possible, you still must endure at least 1 frame of jumpsquat. Otherwise, what are you cancelling from? The same goes for buffered dash grabs I believe.

Also, item tosses cancel jumpsquats too.

Usually you'll do it with 1-2 frame of jumpsquat I think?
But you can do it simultaneously. Maybe not in shield hitlag though?
In neutral, you can do it without jumpsquat frames, I just checked it IG in training mode with pause buffering on 1/4 (hold L), shielded with Bayonetta, then paused, then inputted upB (with tap jump on) and marth's jab (frame 5) at the same frame (the game was paused), Bayo's UpB (frame 4) hits before.

Oh, and afaik you can't buffer a dashgrab in that game (you can in Brawl, though).

 

[TDK]

I'd give him a good **** regardless

I'm assuming this was supposed to read "a good shot" and not "a good ****"?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

From my observation killing/damaging luma safely seems to be the biggest obstacle for most of the roster. There's a handful of characters that come to mind that have a lot of anti-luma stuff like MK, Falcon, and the sword characters but I can't think of any others. Most of the roster usually end up putting themselves in vulnerable situations trying to kill luma. In the Kirihara vs ZeRo sets ZeRo got punished pretty hard throughout their sets trying to get rid of luma as it seems as though Diddy doesn't really have any safe anti-luma tools.

Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ9iZbrmiow

Taternator now has a win over Tyrant and Mr. ConCon with just bowser Jr. This is pretty impressive, and watching the set itself makes me think Bowser Jr can't be written off yet. He's very, very linear, which will hurt him in the long run, but he also has soem powerful options and a solid damage-racking game.

He's pretty solid at juggling and has some unique item play but that's it. He also tends to struggle at putting his opponents in situations where he can juggle his opponent. I wouldn't get my hopes up or anything.

Well its the single best move in the game vsat least. lolz

Nah it's the combination of Trampoline + Hydrant. As has been explained, Pac-Man gets piss poor reward for Trampoline alone.

 

[Lord Dio]

It's time.

Civil War pools are out. Let's see the bloodbath. Note that since this is top 96, 6 players advance per pool.

Spoiler

A1: ZeRo , DKWill , Earth , Dyr , Xzax , TLTC
Wild Card: Zephyr
A2: Ally , Vinnie , Locus , Mr. E , Charliedaking , Jtails
Wild Card: Tremendo Dude
A3: Dabuz , False , WaDi , MVD , Fuwa , Aarvark
Wild Card: Oki
A4: Mr. R , Mew2King , 9B , Ryuga , Mr. Con Con
Wild Cards: Vash , Johnny Westside , Draquaza
A5: Larry Lurr , FOW , Zinoto , Nietono , Sonído , Captain L
Wild Cards: Zex , Keitaro
A6: Salem , Eon , Shuton , JK , S2H , Angel Cortes
Wild Cards: Karna , Dynamo
A7: Kirihara , Tyroy , ESAM , Shoyo James , Raffi-X , Shaky
Wild Cards: Razo , Ven
A8: Kameme , iStudying , Captain Zack , Zenyou , 8BitMan , ScAtt
Wild Cards: SilentDoom , Ghost

B1: MKLeo , K9Sbruce , 6WX , NAKAT , T
Wild Cards: ViceGrip , GrimTurtle Z
B2: Nairo , Saj , Rich Brown , Javi , Venia , Venom
Wild Card: Scizor
B3: Komorikiri , Dath , Samsora , DarkShad , ImHip , Pink Fresh
Wild Cards: Teb , Hackoru
B4: VoiD , Day , Ned , HIKARU , Zan , Legit
Wild Cards: Konga , Taternator
B5: Abadango , Wrath , Elegant , Pugwest , John Numbers , Ac
Wild Cards: RoguePenguin , SM
B6: Tweek , Ryo , Fatality , Trela , S1 , Kome
Wild Card: PiXL
B7: Ranai , DSS , Marss , Tyrant , Skorpio , SS
Wild Cards: Remzi , NotLast , B7Games
B8: ANTi , Glutonny , Tsu- , Falln , JJROCKETS , Nicko
Wild Cards: None

this is going to be glorious.

Looks like B7 might give us a Villager ditto......
*looks at A4*
Well, here's hoping m2k doesn't get Smash Con'd by ConCon (high hopes since it's his first smash 4 only performance)

In all of this mess there is no .

Which pool is Bizarro Flame in? Depending on which one, I wouldn't count him out.

EDIT: My bad, thought Tsu was earned through player attendance just like Gluttony. Still an interesting pool though.

 

[TDK]

Xanadu 5th year anniversary ft. Nairo (Md/Va) (90 Entrants)

1st: Nairo
2nd: WaDi
3rd: ZD
4th: Zephyr
5th: Pink Fresh
5th: Promaelia
7th: F.O.E.
7th: Xerom

WaDi took a set from Nairo in the first set of Grand Finals, though he lost in Winners Finals and the second set.

 

[|RK|]

WaDi almost took that second set from Nairo. If WaDi had Abadango's nair conversions, that would have been game.

 

[T4ylor]

Lord Dio He missed EvilGoku for Ganon. He's one of the best reps for him in the country, just beat CDK at the most recent MSM.

 

[Lord Dio]

Lord Dio He missed EvilGoku for Ganon. He's one of the best reps for him in the country, just beat CDK at the most recent MSM.

Rickles is also going to be at Civil War, but considering the pools......
Just something I found amusing, player A1.....is in pool A2.
Also, found Bizarro, he's in B7, which has......

Spoiler

B7: Ranai , DSS , Marss , Tyrant , Skorpio , SS
Wild Cards: Remzi , NotLast , B7Games

Call me irrational or illogical, but A7 and B7 appear to be the best pools to be in if you're a Ganondorf. I'd say Bizarro got very lucky here. If he's put in the work (and I'd bet he has), he can definitely be a wild card for his bracket.

 

[Nemesis561]

Rickles is also going to be at Civil War, but considering the pools......
Just something I found amusing, player A1.....is in pool A2.
Also, found Bizarro, he's in B7, which has......

Spoiler

B7: Ranai , DSS , Marss , Tyrant , Skorpio , SS
Wild Cards: Remzi , NotLast , B7Games

Call me irrational or illogical, but A7 and B7 appear to be the best pools to be in if you're a Ganondorf. I'd say Bizarro got very lucky here. If he's put in the work (and I'd bet he has), he can definitely be a wild card for his bracket.

What proof do we have that BizarroFlame is any good at this game? Does he have any results, and how long has he been playing smash 4 seriously? I ask because I don't know, of course he's a great melee player but seems like came out of the blue in sm4sh and I'd be surprised if he did anything, especially with ganon

 

[EdgyKnight]

Personaly I think Corrin can be below MK and Pikachu. Like ok Pins good but it's not godlike because if you're just going to be rapidly using pin alot then you're obviously going to get punished for it. Also with the lack of results how would Corrin possibly be #13 when they highest they've even gotten last year was 33rd?

 

[TDK]

Also with the lack of results how would Corrin possibly be #13 when they highest they've even gotten last year was 33rd?

Except for, you know...

Smashcon (Ryuga 17th, Frozen 17th, Ryo 9th)
Little Big House 2 (Ryuga 17th)
The Big House 6 (Cosmos 17th)
KTAR XIX (Ryuga 17th)
UGC Smash Open (Ryuga 13th)

And from this year...

Midwest Mayhem 7 (Ryuga 9th)
Midwest Mayhem Saga (Ryuga 17th)
Frostbite 2016 (Ryuga 17th)

Now, let's look at ESAM's Pikachu results at some of the same tournaments:

Smashcon: 33rd
The Big House 6: 33rd
UGC Smash open: 3rd

So in all the national-level tournaments (With the notable exception of UGC) ESAM and a top Corrin main have been in attendance at, the Corrin main's placed higher. Food for thought.

Oh, and before someone mentions the fact that most of these are Ryuga, when's the last time a Pikachu main that isn't ESAM did well at a national?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Personaly I think Corrin can be below MK and Pikachu. Like ok Pins good but it's not godlike because if you're just going to be rapidly using pin alot then you're obviously going to get punished for it. Also with the lack of results how would Corrin possibly be #13 when they highest they've even gotten last year was 33rd?

A little late to the placement party there buddy. Still Corrin has been getting results. Either as a solo main or a secondary character.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Oh, and before someone mentions the fact that most of these are Ryuga, when's the last time a Pikachu main that isn't ESAM did well at a national?

Captain L: 5th (Don't Park on the Grass)
25th (KTAR Saga)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's still a legit point.

For Corrin to be considered a straight-up better character than Meta Knight, Mega Man, Villager and Toon Link it'll take some pretty far reaching arguments. And even past that - whether Corrin is actually better than Pikachu, Lucina, Lucario, Greninja and Captain Falcon remains to be seen as well. For somebody who may have seen this tier list for the first time [which I assume to be the case since Edgy Knight only has made 1 post in this forum so far] that's definitely something that'll have to stand out as extremely fishy. Even characters like Luigi and Olimar may very well be better than Corrin so for all we know the character could easily be about 10 spots higher on the tier list than (s)he should be. If that's not a point worth arguing for then only because pretty much everybody already agrees that Corrin's position as the best high tier character on the tier list is wrong anyway.

 

[TDK]

Captain L: 5th (Don't Park on the Grass)
25th (KTAR Saga)

I know about Captain L, he lives in my area. Amazing player, original bidouchu, and the second-best Pika worldwide.

But the gap between him and ESAM is bigger than the gap between the best and second-best player of any other non-low tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Smashcon (Ryuga 17th, Ryo 9th)

Don't forget Frozen at 17th.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Rickles is also going to be at Civil War, but considering the pools......
Just something I found amusing, player A1.....is in pool A2.
Also, found Bizarro, he's in B7, which has......

Spoiler

B7: Ranai , DSS , Marss , Tyrant , Skorpio , SS
Wild Cards: Remzi , NotLast , B7Games

Call me irrational or illogical, but A7



and B7 appear to be the best pools to be in if you're a Ganondorf. I'd say Bizarro got very lucky here. If he's put in the work (and I'd bet he has), he can definitely be a wild card for his bracket.

Then you realize he fights Marssif he wins his r1. I wouldn't expect much from Bizarro

 

[Lord Dio]

the gap between him and ESAM is bigger than the gap between the best and second-best player of any other non-low tier.

Even moreso than Pit?

Then you realize he fights Marssif he wins his r1. I wouldn't expect much from Bizarro

Right now, the least I'm expecting from him is a good show, and that shouldn't be hard, even against Marss.

What proof do we have that BizarroFlame is any good at this game? Does he have any results, and how long has he been playing smash 4 seriously? I ask because I don't know, of course he's a great melee player but seems like came out of the blue in sm4sh and I'd be surprised if he did anything, especially with ganon

None, nope, not long. Only thig we really know is he's had a good few months to make the transition and train and practice. I'm just overly optimistic about him because it's probably Ganon's best shot for a while at recognition.

 

[TDK]

Even moreso than Pit?

I gave Kuro the benefit of the doubt due to living in an overall stronger region.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I'm out here hoping that Konga, DKwill, and Hikaru all make it to top 96. If they farther in this tourney, I'll be happy. Evilgoku prob won't make it out nor rickles, but we give it the good ol Ganondorf try!

 

[Das Koopa]

hikaru could feasibly make winners quarters

he would probably trash VoiD and I think he'd probably beat Abadango

He'd get ruined by MKLeo though. I have him on my fantasy league. The only thing can go really wrong there is if he drops to Ned, but DK/Cloud doesn't look like an especially bad matchup and Japan is really good at the Cloud matchup.