Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Jaguar360]

I'll have a masterpost of the last 2 weeks up fairly soon

btw I've literally never heard of solid. Is it an alias of Draquaza?

Neither have I. He's from Arizona though, so he's not Draquaza.

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/rise-2017/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":118735}
Rise 2017 (Arizona) (155 entrants)
1. Ally
2. Elegant (Lost to Luhtie and Ally )
3. ANTi (Lost to Ally and Elegant )
4. JK (Lost to ANTi and Elegant )
5. Luhtie (Lost to Ally and JK )
5. PiXL (Lost to ANTi and Elegant )
7. Solid (Lost to PiXL and JK )
7. Tyrant (Lost to Luhtie and Elegant )
9. Strozai (Lost to Saiki and Solid )
9. Saiki (Lost to Ally and Elegant )
9. ven (Lost to SS and JK )
9. Snoop (Lost to ANTi and Tyrant )
13. Gabe (Lost to Tyrant and ven )
13. VaLoR (Lost to Ally and Strozai )
13. Apa~ (Lost to Gabe and Elegant )
13. BestNess (Lost to JK and Snoop )

Notables outside top 16:
17. Rich Brown (Lost to Solid and Gabe )
17. K9sbruce (Lost to JK and Strozai )
17. SS (Lost to PiXL and Elegant )
17. Vash (Lost to Luhtie and Ven )
17. Z (Lost to Solid and Apa~ )

So Ryu and Luigi continue to herd in results, Zelda does some good stuff, going 2-3 against some bad matchups and overcoming the Little Mac matchup (which is actually pretty hard for Zelda), and Zard has a really good performance. Also worth noting that Saiki had a really close set versus Ally.

As i was at this tournament and talk to these players on a regular basis, i'll give some insight:

Luhtie: regularly plays SS, and has been up and coming in the region for awhile. currently ranked #4 on AZ PR, this was a huge breakout tournament for him.
PixL: #2 in Utah, very solid ryu.
Solid: An AZ hidden boss. Honestly, this is our region's tendency, as we have a lot of very solid players either too young or too busy or too far out to attend tournaments enough both in region and out. Solid (formerly known as Solidmid) is a former ZSS main who has recently been playing a lot of charizard, and is, obviously, quite good with the character. For a reference, he did get top 32 in doubles at G4 with his partner DKollie.
Strozai: Not a hidden boss per say, but is still under the radar. #3 on AZ PR, and a very strong player, he has performed quite well in region and out, so his placing shouldn't be a surprise. highest placing greninja at evo 2016.
Saiki: Currently #2 on AZ PR, and most well known for his wins over larry lurr, pink fresh and FOW, saiki is one of the more unknown sheik mains on a national scale, but is still a top level sheik nonetheless. while his placing might be lower than some would expect, he did lose to ally and elegent, who of course got 1st and 2nd today.
Ven:Vegas zelda, arguably the best in the world, and performed quite well despite the perception that zelda is a bottom tiered character.
Snoop: highest placing yoshi at evo 2016 to my knowledge and from vegas. its very nice to see yoshi once again make waves at larger tournaments.
Gabe: Another vegas player, unfortunately i don't know too much about him.
VaLoR: Utah sonic, #6 i believe, and has done well at other AZ events (5th at rewired 2016).
Apa~: also known as apachai, this is another "hidden boss" who was formerly an AZ PR ryu. he has placed 65th at G4 and beaten players like pink fresh, concon, elegant (falcon punch fridays), and taken void to game 5 (falcon punch fridays). most known for taking a game off of Zero in 2015 with little mac at mvg sandstorm.
Bestness: #1 player in utah, and an absolute monster in doubles.

Overall, im very happy with how this tournament went. Largest AZ tourney for smash 4 EVER, and AZ as well as other regions did work and showed that we do in fact have very good players lol.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Snoop: highest placing yoshi at evo 2016 to my knowledge

I think you mean GENESIS 4. Snoop wasn't anywhere in the Top 64 at EVO.

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, in Japan

Eim 2-0 Taiheita

Taiheita places 65th

 

[TheGoodGuava]

BTW did anyone see that 'expose Ally' topic on the videos thread? I looked at it and it claimed the video linked to it proved Ally was a fraud. Pretty sure it's either a troll or a rickroll though...

Charizards vs Greninja is arguably even
Sonic isn't that bad, like yeah he's bad, but its still very doable. Charizard has the tools to deal with sonic in neutral and if he wins it sonic is going to have a tough time resetting. Its just a lot more stress on the charizard player than the sonic player

 

[Floor]

Rosa is hyper dominant in neutral but lacks literally EVERYTHING else that makes top tiers....top tier.

So I guess it depends on how much value you place on the neutral.

I mean you can actually edgeguard Rosa consistently and everyone can do it.

That is kinda crazy to me and unheard of for a smash top tier imo. That said, I still think she is top tier. Because I value really powerful neutral with little commitment.

Well she has Luma upair kills at 0% due to absured base knockback. That's something that's Bayo-esque

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Charizards vs Greninja is arguably even
Sonic isn't that bad, like yeah he's bad, but its still very doable. Charizard has the tools to deal with sonic in neutral and if he wins it sonic is going to have a tough time resetting. Its just a lot more stress on the charizard player than the sonic player

Pretty sure you meant to quote my other post but eh. He lost to Bayo and Ryu.....are either of them bad for zard? I know I have a hard time with Bayo myself but that's more due to poor reaction time than witch time I mean flamethrower beats witch time (surprisingly enough) but Bayo outranges him and has arguably better buttons right? What does Ryu have over Zard?

 

[TDK]

Yuzu 2-0 KEN

Really good day for Rosalina today.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's pretty rad that Kome and Nicko both made it as far as they did at such a stacked tournament. 's meta is only starting to have an upturn from here.

Sucks he lost to a secondary/pocket though, right?

But yeah, Shulk (like Samus) can perform well at top level in the right hands IMO. Both quite hard to master, but quite rewarding and capable if mastered.

---

I'm real glad Kirihara played so well yesterday. Hopefully it's a wake-up-call to the people who think Rosalina is on her way out. Oh boy, she really isn't.

 

[MistressRemilia]

It's pretty rad that Kome and Nicko both made it as far as they did at such a stacked tournament. 's meta is only starting to have an upturn from here.

208 entrants isn't exactly what i'd call a very stacked tournament. If we go by seeding, they were also most likely expected to reach 17th, or be somewhat close to it. It's not like it was done with much brio either, the best win of the two was Nicko against Dath, and Dath won the runback despite playing rather poorly ( Imo, terrible stage picking throughout the 2 sets )
It's nice that the character's getting respectable results but he's going to need more to impress me right now, like the two players have done before. Let's hope one of the two shulks gets some kind of significant win or decent placement at Civil War, where competition will be much closer. Then i'll be impressed and reconsider Shulk's placement. But for now, this goes along with what the character is in terms of viability & tournament capabilities overall, pretty much.
Meanwhile in Japan, Duck Hunt doing good once again with Raito getting 4th out of the 256 entrants of Umebura 26, beating YOC, Some, Lea & Sigma in the process. Nothing spectacular but a very respectable placement regardless.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure you meant to quote my other post but eh. He lost to Bayo and Ryu.....are either of them bad for zard? I know I have a hard time with Bayo myself but that's more due to poor reaction time than witch time I mean flamethrower beats witch time (surprisingly enough) but Bayo outranges him and has arguably better buttons right? What does Ryu have over Zard?

Better buttons on the ground, safer pokes, hitconfirms into a kill move that does not care about Zards heavy weight status.

 

[Luigi player]

Mario #1 and Luigi #2. The results don't get any more picture perfect than that lol.

Elegant is soooo close to getting 1st at these events lately. He has beaten Tyrant, Anti, Mr R, Void, last hitted MK Leo...What a player. Probably contends for top 10 in the world atm.

Huh, when did Elegant beat Mr R? Never heard of that and I googled and nothing came up too.

Elegant has setwins against... (combining the ones you already stated with a few I have at the top of my head; with their PGRv2 rank)

Void (#6)
Abagango (#7)
Anti (#9)
Komorikiri (#12)
Salem (#13)
Ranai (#14)
Tyrant (#34)

... and probably more.
That's a really impressive list of great wins he has there.

Besides MKLeo he also had a 2-3 loss against Dabuz so it seems that was close as well.

Now we'll have to see how he can hold this, though. Resultswise he's definitely made the jump into the PGR top 50. Gonna be interesting where he'll end up.

 

[blackghost]

Has anyone else noticed the way top level Japanese players make Monkey Flip look like a bad move?

They play it almost like a street fighter move. They just set up and deny Diddy a high recovery with monkey flip. Every person that has beaten zero Diddy has done it as well. He panicked flips a lot he is starting to be punished for it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Better buttons on the ground, safer pokes, hitconfirms into a kill move that does not care about Zards heavy weight status.

I'm not going to argue that I know about the up tilt into true shoryuken kill confirm combo. Not to mention that up tilt is the easier poke to make that given zards heavyweight status can easily trap you if you aren't ready for it. However can't zard completely outrange ryu with his tilts and punch through his hadokens no problem?

 

[TDK]

Umebura 26 (Japan) (256 Entrants)

1st: Ikep
2nd: Eim
3rd: Yuzu
4th: Raito
5th: Some
5th: KEN
7th: Sigma
7th: Kept
9th: Bokin-Chan
9th: Lea
9th: Taranito
9th: Umeki
13th: Ic
13th: Paseriman
13th: Es
13th: Gackt

Spoiler: rest of top 32

17th: Kuro
17th: Ryuji
17th: Kenkenpa
17th: RAIN
17th: bAhuto
17th: Nyanko
17th: Yui
17th: Supa
25th: shky
25th: Yakara
25th: YOC
25th: Tiger
25th: Repo
25th: Jill
25th: T
25th: Tsu~

Hall of Shame:

Taiheita - 65th
Nietono - drowned in pools

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not going to argue that I know about the up tilt into true shoryuken kill confirm combo. Not to mention that up tilt is the easier poke to make that given zards heavyweight status can easily trap you if you aren't ready for it. However can't zard completely outrange ryu with his tilts and punch through his hadokens no problem?

None of zards ground buttons are safe vs Ryu.

Hadouken is garbage so beating it really isn't relevant. It is not at all a cornerstone of his gameplay.

 

[Yonder]

Umebura 26 (Japan) (256 Entrants)

1st: Ikep
2nd: Eim
3rd: Yuzu
4th: Raito
5th: Some
5th: KEN
7th: Sigma
7th: Kept
9th: Bokin-Chan
9th: Lea
9th: Taranito
9th: Umeki
13th: Ic
13th: Paseriman
13th: Es
13th: Gackt

Spoiler: rest of top 32

17th: Kuro
17th: Ryuji
17th: Kenkenpa
17th: RAIN
17th: bAhuto
17th: Nyanko
17th: Yui
17th: Supa
25th: shky
25th: Yakara
25th: YOC
25th: Tiger
25th: Repo
25th: Jill
25th: T
25th: Tsu~

Hall of Shame:

Taiheita - 65th
Nietono - drowned in pools

You put a Falcon symbol by Tsu. Then again, he got mutilated by Cashmere so badly though that it could have deleted Lucario out of the game...

 

[MistressRemilia]

You put a Falcon symbol by Tsu. Then again, he got mutilated by Cashmere so badly though that it could have deleted Lucario out of the game...

Tsu~ the Falcon player and Tsu the Lucario player are different players.
Just saying, it seems rather obvious since Tsu was at Frame Perfect Series 2, that he couldn't attend Umebura 26 right after it, and this is most likely a joke coming from you, but i guess i'll just make sure people know they're different people.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

None of zards ground buttons are safe vs Ryu.

Hadouken is garbage so beating it really isn't relevant. It is not at all a cornerstone of his gameplay.

So zard doesn't have any answer to Ryu at all? Can't zard do anything?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zard has stuff. Just nothing safe on the ground. He has edgeguarding, midrange control with flame thrower, and grab confirms

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So of course now all of a sudden the same people that have been talking crap about Rosalina come in here and act as if they always knew she's top 10. As if they never talked about stuff like Marth taking her top 10 spot, her being incapable of winning big tournaments and being forced to use secondaries. And now that Kirihara wins the Frame perfect tournament when dabuz was expected to be the strongest Rosalina everybody's acting as if the character carries players to tournament wins. And all that happens within the span of ~4 tournament sets, two of which are "duplicates" via Kirihara beating Zero twice. Before that people were all like "oh she has this and that weakness and she's too inconsistent, she's barely -if at all- top tier at this point anymore" and now everybody's like "her neutral is so oppressive she doesn't even need that good an advantage or disadvantage state because her buttons are just so amazing". Just because of one evening of a tournament where things went perfectly for the character. Is that all it takes to convince you people? This community is so opportunistic and hypocritical, it makes me sick and tired of having to deal with it. The more I have to deal with it the more I feel like giving it up alltogether, quit this game and not post in here again. Ever.

On an entirely unrelated note, I always knew Rosalina is top 10.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

So of course now all of a sudden the same people that have been talking crap about Rosalina come in here and act as if they always knew she's top 10. As if they never talked about stuff like Marth taking her top 10 spot, her being incapable of winning big tournaments and being forced to use secondaries. And now that Kirihara wins the Frame perfect tournament when dabuz was expected to be the strongest Rosalina everybody's acting as if the character carries players to tournament wins. And all that happens within the span of ~4 tournament sets, two of which are "duplicates" via Kirihara beating Zero twice. Before that people were all like "oh she has this and that weakness and she's too inconsistent, she's barely -if at all- top tier at this point anymore" and now everybody's like "her neutral is so oppressive she doesn't even need that good an advantage or disadvantage state because her buttons are just so amazing". Just because of one evening of a tournament where things went perfectly for the character. Is that all it takes to convince you people? This community is so opportunistic and hypocritical, it makes me sick and tired of having to deal with it. The more I have to deal with it the more I feel like giving it up alltogether, quit this game and not post in here again. Ever.

On an entirely unrelated note, I always knew Rosalina is top 10.

Nice post ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

What's the status of fox? I've always wondered about him as I feel like I don't know him very well. How well-rounded is he?

 

[blackghost]

So of course now all of a sudden the same people that have been talking crap about Rosalina come in here and act as if they always knew she's top 10. As if they never talked about stuff like Marth taking her top 10 spot, her being incapable of winning big tournaments and being forced to use secondaries. And now that Kirihara wins the Frame perfect tournament when dabuz was expected to be the strongest Rosalina everybody's acting as if the character carries players to tournament wins. And all that happens within the span of ~4 tournament sets, two of which are "duplicates" via Kirihara beating Zero twice. Before that people were all like "oh she has this and that weakness and she's too inconsistent, she's barely -if at all- top tier at this point anymore" and now everybody's like "her neutral is so oppressive she doesn't even need that good an advantage or disadvantage state because her buttons are just so amazing". Just because of one evening of a tournament where things went perfectly for the character. Is that all it takes to convince you people? This community is so opportunistic and hypocritical, it makes me sick and tired of having to deal with it. The more I have to deal with it the more I feel like giving it up alltogether, quit this game and not post in here again. Ever.

On an entirely unrelated note, I always knew Rosalina is top 10.

Not sure how many people were doubting Rosa as a top tier it just helps to get a top result from the character in a major is event. We needed/wanted to see if Rosa could win in bracket full of elite players and characters with multiple high level clouds, bayos, and others. Having the result moves it beyond theory. That matters, just ask marth players or bayo players (they've had opposite experiences on this front).
Rosa is a weird character to judge but if the model from kirihara is to be followed every Rosa needs to improve their offense as a solo character and not simply run or be defensive.

 

[NairWizard]

Sticking to my "Rosa is meh with really smart players carrying her" theory.

#sorry

#but not really sorry

 

[TDK]

John Numbers confirmed for Civil War.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sticking to my "Rosa is meh with really smart players carrying her" theory.

#sorry

#but not really sorry

So does that make Kirihara a smarter/better player than ZeRo, or does it make Diddy an even worse character than Rosalina?

 

[MistressRemilia]

So of course now all of a sudden the same people that have been talking crap about Rosalina come in here and act as if they always knew she's top 10. As if they never talked about stuff like Marth taking her top 10 spot, her being incapable of winning big tournaments and being forced to use secondaries. And now that Kirihara wins the Frame perfect tournament when dabuz was expected to be the strongest Rosalina everybody's acting as if the character carries players to tournament wins. And all that happens within the span of ~4 tournament sets, two of which are "duplicates" via Kirihara beating Zero twice. Before that people were all like "oh she has this and that weakness and she's too inconsistent, she's barely -if at all- top tier at this point anymore" and now everybody's like "her neutral is so oppressive she doesn't even need that good an advantage or disadvantage state because her buttons are just so amazing". Just because of one evening of a tournament where things went perfectly for the character. Is that all it takes to convince you people? This community is so opportunistic and hypocritical, it makes me sick and tired of having to deal with it. The more I have to deal with it the more I feel like giving it up alltogether, quit this game and not post in here again. Ever.

On an entirely unrelated note, I always knew Rosalina is top 10.

Personally, i just see people analyzing the current metagame & the latest ressources available, and the different conclusions that can be deduced out of these ressources. If done too intensively, it does lead into a rather braindead way of thinking, with poorly justified thoughts of all kinds like Rosa not being Top 10, which imo, wasn't ever the case throughout the entire metagame, despite the fact that Rosa was a bit on the decline beforehand. However, the will to analyze this game with a present eye is something that i'd say is completely understandable. If a character's record against most relevant matchups are on the decline, as well as results as a whole, it's completely natural that for the time being, this character may be thought as weaker than before, thus dropping a bit for the time being, until things do happen for this character's metagame.

When a character's getting less relevant in the game, with less placements, less wins, worse losses & confirmtion of matchups making the character struggle, people have every right to be doubtful about the character's capabilities, and superiority over the other characters of the cast, as temporary as this thought may be. They may also not believe in the character's factual decline because the factors explaining these drops do not translate to the character being weaker than those below it, or the other characters may just not be strong enough despite the decline of the character we're mentionned.

Also, i'm mildly confident that Rosa not being Top 10 remained an overstatement more than anything for all of the metagame's lifespan. I don't think i've seen a whole lot of people confidently arguing that this character wasn't Top 10.

So does that make Kirihara a smarter/better player than ZeRo, or does it make Diddy an even worse character than Rosalina?

I know the intent of this post wasn't to give a fully fleshed out answer, but moreso a sarcastic/cynical answer to a thought you may consider as absurd, as highlighted by the idea of the post, but PLEASE, for the love of everything that exists, DO NOT associate a single matchup with character viability over others.

 

[TDK]

Raffi-X has been fully funded for Civil War!

 

[Bowserboy3]

I know the intent of this post wasn't to give a fully fleshed out answer, but moreso a sarcastic/cynical answer to a thought you may consider as absurd, as highlighted by the idea of the post, but PLEASE, for the love of everything that exists, DO NOT associate a single matchup with character viability over others.

I wasn't.

I was having a little joke.

Something this thread needs to do more of sometimes.

But my reply does hold some weight in context. If Kirihara beat ZeRo's Diddy with Rosalina, is he simply an amazing player bringing this "meh" character to the top? I very much doubt it.

 

[Das Koopa]

characters who've won A-Tiers/Nationals/Majors since 2016 (depending on your terminology) (every major prior was won by ZeRo)

GENESIS 3 - ZeRo
Pound 2016 - Abadango
Get On My Level 2016 - Ally
CEO 2016 - ANTi
EVO 2016 - Ally
KTAR Saga - Pink Fresh
Super Smash Con 2016 - Nairo
Umebura S.A.T. - KEN
Shine 2016 - ZeRo
Abadango Saga - ZeRo
The Big House 6 - ZeRo
Smashdown World - komorikiri
KTAR XIX - ZeRo
UGC Smash Open - ZeRo
ZeRo Saga - MKLeo
GENESIS Saga - ZeRo
GENESIS 4 - MKLeo
Midwest Mayhem Saga - ZeRo
NicoNico Tokaigi 2017 - Nairo
Frostbite 2017 - ZeRo
Frame Perfect Series 2 - Kirihara

Diddy Kong x8 (+1 secondary)
Mario x3
Marth x2
Zero Suit Samus x2 (+1 secondary)
Cloud x1 (+3 secondary)
Bayonetta x1
Rosalina & Luma x1
Mewtwo x1
Sheik x1 (Pre-Nerf)
Sonic x1

Meta Knight x2 secondary, Falcon x1 secondary

ZeRo x9
MKLeo x2
Nairo x2
Ally x2
ANTi x1
Kirihara x1
Pink Fresh x1
KEN x1
komorikiri x1
Abadango x1

Conclusions should lean more towards player skill than any particular character viability. I don't really care where Rosa is ranked but tsu was about 1-3% away from that upsmash killing which would've net him a more impressive win than Kirihara's at a more stacked event, but the idea of Lucario as top 10 would've been very controversial.

Probably should examine Top 3s from Apex 2015-FPS2 but I'm behind on other stuff so I'll focus on that first.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I wasn't.

I was having a little joke.

Something this thread needs to do more of sometimes.

But my reply does hold some weight in context. If Kirihara beat ZeRo's Diddy with Rosalina, is he simply an amazing player bringing this "meh" character to the top? I very much doubt it.

I'd rather have you bring your jokes to a chat of some sort, rather than a SB thread about compettitive analysis of the current metagame, its trends, the future of certain characters, and so on. But anyway:

One character i would like us to talk about this time is Robin: With Dath getting 9th at FS2, which is quite a respactable placement, Robin finally does something for what i feel was a long time. Quite a unique character with a rather complete neutral,reliable confirms, offset by a terrible disadvantage & overall sluggishness that costs the characte the fact that most of his worse matchups are rushdown characters capable of exploiting disadvantage state, it seems.
Any concrete thoughts on the character as of now? I'm not exactly a Robin expert, but i'll just say that the character's one of the more inconsistent, yet capable threats in the metagame: Advantage state is quite strong overall with impressive damage output on most moves & a neutral that feels cohesive with the character's advantage state & mobility, being able to go from zoning, to attempting to unleash combo through the use of various starter in mid to long range. Robin's levin sword aerial, Arcfire, and Neutral B feel quite fexible & versatile, giving the character a bit less linearity than one would expect, with a moveset that, while decent overall, isn't the best, especially in terms of ground game, with fairly weak tilt, and a prety good jab.

 

[DanGR]

Sticking to my "Rosa is meh with really smart players carrying her" theory.

#sorry

#but not really sorry

To a degree, I agree.

There's also the fact that she is one of, if not, the most complex characters to learn counterplay against, without enough representation to accompany and make up for this complexity. I strongly agree with your statement a while back that players get the biggest gains, so to speak, from practice against Rosa than against any other character.

It also doesn't help that she's not exactly a character people like to try out during practice- and when they do, the other player probably isn't learning much of anything about the matchup, given the nature of her skill floor. A lot of folks don't know where to start, and there's not a lot of public resources available to glean info from.

From my point of view, knowing luma killing tactics is the most basic, necessary skill to learn in the matchup- and many 'top' players are still bad at it after years of playing this game professionally. I see commentators praise Luma slaughtering as if players are making some strong, out of the ordinary play, when all I see is counterplay in its most basic form. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't even at least attack luma when you throw Rosa at a percent where you can't follow up on Rosa, but at %s where a tilt will stun Luma before he can act, you deserve to lose on the spot. I'm embarrassed for players on stream to see them throw Rosa at 150% and still sit in shield as if Luma can do anything. This is a regular occurence in top 16 sets against Rosalina at majors. What does this say about how seriously top players take Rosa as a common tournament threat if this is still happening at 'top' levels? People are ignorant to information leading to simple counterplay measures that are necessary and unanswerable in lots of situations. Many top players dont know Luma percents or keep track of the timer. They hit luma with attacks that don't send luma into tumble when he's guaranteed to die with most other attacks. When they do these things properly it's praised as an atypical skill instead of the standard.

Top players still get hit by Luma nair2 on blocking luma nair1. Top players get hit by Rosa lingering nair after luma nair1 on block. Top players regularly get hit by soloRosa upthrow->wait->hit at very low %s when they have no good reason to airdodge. Top players regularly get hit by Luma dair from ledge jump and don't understand any of the counterplay you can perform to kill Luma, uncontested, when this cheese happens. First hitbox of Rosa nair->luma nair2 is not a blockstring, but you'd think so by watching sets in top 16 at majors. I could go on.

On the other hand, top Rosa players have a huge advantage in knowing all of these specifics while others are scrounging for data and relying on anecdotes passed from player to player- much of it just flat out wrong. On that note, I haven't seen a commentator that understands Rosa on a complex enough level to even remotely understand the subtle complexities that players like Dabuz, Kirihara, and Falln take advantage of.

This all just makes me cringe.

 

[TDK]

S1-14 confirmed for Civil War!

Only player left in the compendium is Cacogen , with just 18 dollars to his name so far.

 

[Yonder]

characters who've won A-Tiers/Nationals/Majors since 2016 (depending on your terminology) (every major prior was won by ZeRo)

GENESIS 3 - ZeRo
Pound 2016 - Abadango
Get On My Level 2016 - Ally
CEO 2016 - ANTi
EVO 2016 - Ally
KTAR Saga - Pink Fresh
Super Smash Con 2016 - Nairo
Umebura S.A.T. - KEN
Shine 2016 - ZeRo
Abadango Saga - ZeRo
The Big House 6 - ZeRo
Smashdown World - komorikiri
KTAR XIX - ZeRo
UGC Smash Open - ZeRo
ZeRo Saga - MKLeo
GENESIS Saga - ZeRo
GENESIS 4 - MKLeo
Midwest Mayhem Saga - ZeRo
NicoNico Tokaigi 2017 - Nairo
Frostbite 2017 - ZeRo
Frame Perfect Series 2 - Kirihara

Diddy Kong x8 (+1 secondary)
Mario x3
Marth x2
Zero Suit Samus x2 (+1 secondary)
Cloud x1 (+3 secondary)
Bayonetta x1
Rosalina & Luma x1
Mewtwo x1
Sheik x1 (Pre-Nerf)
Sonic x1

Meta Knight x2 secondary, Falcon x1 secondary

ZeRo x9
MKLeo x2
Nairo x2
Ally x2
ANTi x1
Kirihara x1
Pink Fresh x1
KEN x1
komorikiri x1
Abadango x1

Conclusions should lean more towards player skill than any particular character viability. I don't really care where Rosa is ranked but tsu was about 1-3% away from that upsmash killing which would've net him a more impressive win than Kirihara's at a more stacked event, but the idea of Lucario as top 10 would've been very controversial.

Probably should examine Top 3s from Apex 2015-FPS2 but I'm behind on other stuff so I'll focus on that first.

So what stands out here is the surprising lacking of Sheik, commonly debated as top 5 or even 1st. And only PRE nerf Sheik won ONE event, way back at Genesis 3?

What gives? Basically pre nerf Sheik hasn't won anything major or even assisted in doing so, unlike MK and the flurry of Clouds.

Fox is the other notable name absent but that's maybe cause Larry Lurr is his only rep. Or is he slightly overrated?

 

[ぱみゅ]

So what stands out here is the surprising lacking of Sheik, commonly debated as top 5 or even 1st. And only PRE nerf Sheik won ONE event, way back at Genesis 3?

What gives? Basically pre nerf Sheik hasn't won anything major or even assisted in doing so, unlike MK and the flurry of Clouds.

Fox is the other notable name absent but that's maybe cause Larry Lurr is his only rep. Or is he slightly overrated?

I would give a LOT of emphasis on the players who have won, instead of characters.

Sheik issue, imo, is that she is very prone to get Sm4sh'd due to her light weight. She still has one of the most impressive frame data and matchup theory in the entire game. If neither rage or human factor weren't a factor she would've won several big events by now.

 

[OverTime]

Larry won Mexico Saga didn't he? Or does that not have enough players/PGR to count?

 

[ARGHETH]

So what stands out here is the surprising lacking of Sheik, commonly debated as top 5 or even 1st.

Well, she got top 8 at all but six of these tournaments, and three of them are because Void/Mr. R didn't attend. The other three are 9th places.

And only PRE nerf Sheik won ONE event, way back at Genesis 3?

What gives? Basically pre nerf Sheik hasn't won anything major or even assisted in doing so, unlike MK and the flurry of Clouds.

Genesis 3 is the only major on that list before the nerf, I'm pretty sure.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Winning a major/national with Sheik means you need to get through ZeRo. Dude's been playing it since 2015 with the exact same character and is likely the best at fighting her.
The only other people that can similarly make Sheik look like a **** character are Dabuz and Anti, two other players that tend to knock Sheiks into losers and out of tournaments.

 

[Laken64]

So what stands out here is the surprising lacking of Sheik, commonly debated as top 5 or even 1st. And only PRE nerf Sheik won ONE event, way back at Genesis 3?

What gives? Basically pre nerf Sheik hasn't won anything major or even assisted in doing so, unlike MK and the flurry of Clouds.

Fox is the other notable name absent but that's maybe cause Larry Lurr is his only rep. Or is he slightly overrated?

Larry has been close to winning majors, most notably in ZeRo saga and abadango saga, taking second thanks to MK Leo and Zero. I personally don't think is overrated at all, he has all the tools to win a or be in GFs of a major as shown by larry (the GF part but as I said above he has come close to winning) he has one of the most damaging vortex in the game in advantage, along with the speed with devastating frame traps and the deadly fair footstool, but in return has the worst disadvantage stage of the top tiers, getting comboed to oblivion, being easily edgeguarded, especially by said top tiers and can sometimes die as fast as he can kill. is just one of those characters that can either steamroll you in bracket or you get him into disadvantage and he either takes 50% +, force him offstage, or he's already dead, which makes him especially volatile in MUs like which the tide can shift in a instant.

Fox can win a major, it's just asking the question whether he can hold on to his advantage long enough to avoid/minimize the amount of times he's in his disadvantage stage at all costs against said characters above

 

[my_T]

From my observation killing/damaging luma safely seems to be the biggest obstacle for most of the roster. There's a handful of characters that come to mind that have a lot of anti-luma stuff like MK, Falcon, and the sword characters but I can't think of any others. Most of the roster usually end up putting themselves in vulnerable situations trying to kill luma. In the Kirihara vs ZeRo sets ZeRo got punished pretty hard throughout their sets trying to get rid of luma as it seems as though Diddy doesn't really have any safe anti-luma tools.

Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?