Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

|RK| · Mar 20, 2017

So, here's a very interesting discussion on Twitter about the value of aggression in Smash 4:

https://twitter.com/Pierce7d/status/843678588226453504

Turns out that Pierce believes that a player that can't play aggressively isn't an optimal player. And we see that to some extent with ZeRo - despite the belief that he plays lame, the man is *aggressive*. He just knows when to pull back. Pierce goes on to say that people are stuck on Brawl, and aggressive strategies are the best to win the game. Now, considering many people have said the exact opposite for the longest time, what do you guys think about this?

my_T said:
From my observation killing/damaging luma safely seems to be the biggest obstacle for most of the roster. There's a handful of characters that come to mind that have a lot of anti-luma stuff like MK, Falcon, and the sword characters but I can't think of any others. Most of the roster usually end up putting themselves in vulnerable situations trying to kill luma. In the Kirihara vs ZeRo sets ZeRo got punished pretty hard throughout their sets trying to get rid of luma as it seems as though Diddy doesn't really have any safe anti-luma tools.

Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?

Kirby's Luma Shot :^)

FeelMeUp · Mar 20, 2017

my_T said:
From my observation killing/damaging luma safely seems to be the biggest obstacle for most of the roster. There's a handful of characters that come to mind that have a lot of anti-luma stuff like MK, Falcon, and the sword characters but I can't think of any others. Most of the roster usually end up putting themselves in vulnerable situations trying to kill luma. In the Kirihara vs ZeRo sets ZeRo got punished pretty hard throughout their sets trying to get rid of luma as it seems as though Diddy doesn't really have any safe anti-luma tools.

Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?

If Rosa has to grab ledge against

Luma should die every time. Any Sheik that doesn't do this clearly doesn't know the matchup.
Vanish extends a bit past the ledge and kills Luma. Dash attack once Rosa has lost stage control also works fairly well, as it's f5(I think? haven't checked in a bit) and Sheik won't take major damage for committing to it due to the instant Luma death in most scenarios. Rosa's Usmash is still quite strong, though, and can kill you if it's her punish of choice while you're at high %s.
Sheiks should stop trying to hit Luma outright and should instead pressure Rosa outside of Luma's range. Once a full stack of needles hits Luma, fair and ftilt start sending Luma into tumble. That's when the game really starts.

Ark of Silence101 · Mar 20, 2017

TDK said:
S1-14 confirmed for Civil War!

Only player left in the compendium is Cacogen , with just 18 dollars to his name so far.

So only Cacogen and Elexiao are left? Yes, I know he isn't in the compendium but he has his own funding and needs 250 more euro to attend. A few anti-Luma moves that are both good and little risk are

,

, and

dash attacks since even if Luma is at full hp, it still launches enough to kill it of the ledge. Of course assuming you pull off the right timing after you separate them.

Emblem Lord · Mar 20, 2017

Pierce and I had this discussion about a year ago. Shortly after the shield stun patch actually. Basically we both felt with that patch, that aggression was more or less the optimal way to play. If your character has the reward and you can put someone in a bad situation that can lead to a conversion then you should be doing that. If you can close the stock then ****ing close it. Camping is a legit strat but remember, the longer you camp, the longer you give your opponent an opportunity to figure out the holes in your game.

If you are fighting someone that you notice is very hasty and does foolish things when you camp them, then by all means camp the **** out of them. If camping is the OPTIMAL strategy vs an opponent then DO IT. But once you get them in a bad position you NEED to turn up the heat.

Skeeter Mania · Mar 20, 2017

Yonder said:
Fox is the other notable name absent but that's maybe cause Larry Lurr is his only rep.

Well, not his only one, but at least the only one in the Top 20.

Ark of Silence101 · Mar 20, 2017

Emblem Lord said:
Pierce and I had this discussion about a year ago. Shortly after the shield stun patch actually. Basically we both felt with that patch, that aggression was more or less the optimal way to play. If your character has the reward and you can put someone in a bad situation that can lead to a conversion then you should be doing that. If you can close the stock then ****ing close it. Camping is a legit strat but remember, the longer you camp, the longer you give your opponent an opportunity to figure out the holes in your game.

If you are fighting someone that you notice is very hasty and does foolish things when you camp them, then by all means camp the **** out of them. If camping is the OPTIMAL strategy vs an opponent then DO IT. But once you get them in a bad position you NEED to turn up the heat.

Reminds me of the few

I have played that happened to love camping more than anything.

TDK · Mar 20, 2017

Worth noting Fox has one of the bigger gaps in skill between his best rep in Larry and his second-best rep in Charliedaking (Based off of the OrionRank). It's not Pikachu-level big, but Larry is the only Fox capable of consistently breaking into top 32 at majors and even then, he's got a 7th place curse.

BSP · Mar 20, 2017

my_T said:
From my observation killing/damaging luma safely seems to be the biggest obstacle for most of the roster. There's a handful of characters that come to mind that have a lot of anti-luma stuff like MK, Falcon, and the sword characters but I can't think of any others. Most of the roster usually end up putting themselves in vulnerable situations trying to kill luma. In the Kirihara vs ZeRo sets ZeRo got punished pretty hard throughout their sets trying to get rid of luma as it seems as though Diddy doesn't really have any safe anti-luma tools.

Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?

If

grabs the ledge against

, Luma should die every time as long as the hydrant is available. It sends it into tumble immediately. Dair's final hit also sends it into tumble immediately, but that can't be done with little risk.

If

can get a key in his hand then walk to a range where GP is punishable on reaction by run up -> something, he can throw the Key pretty safely and KO Luma even if Rosa blocks it. That strategy takes time however, and likely requires giving up stage control in order to get the key in hand to ensure full safety.

can instant kill it too likely when Rosa grabs the ledge with Dair and/or SJP stage spike, but Dair requires burning your jump and SJP could knock Luma towards the stage (still stuns it for a while though). His (early) Dash Attack is good for KO'ing a Luma that is tumbling to the ground. Of course there's Bthrow, but that requires getting close in the first place.

This is reminding me of why I get disappointed when people let Rosalina go to smashville. The platform can and will mess up your attempts to KO Luma, which can cost you the match a few seconds later.

|RK| Rage is a direct incentive not to let people live. Unless the MU truly calls for you to time the opponent out or camp super hard, I wouldn't recommend it tbh.

Das Koopa · Mar 20, 2017

TDK said:
Worth noting Fox has one of the bigger gaps in skill between his best rep in Larry and his second-best rep in Charliedaking (Based off of the OrionRank). It's not Pikachu-level big, but Larry is the only Fox capable of consistently breaking into top 32 at majors and even then, he's got a 7th place curse.

I think SH could probably take an event like FPS2, ZeRo & all. He doesn't attend enough, though (wasn't ranked last year because he attended like 2-3 tournies)

ぱみゅ · Mar 20, 2017

my_T said:
Can somebody provide some examples (doesn't have to be video) of anti-luma tactics that have little to no risk?

I mentioned it before, but this is relevant now: Marth can just Tipper Fair Luma. It won't kill her, probably won't even make her tumble with high HP (two or maybe three hits), but it generates enough hitlag to make Rosa respect it, or else she'd get hit by it too. I guess Nair and Uair may work too, but Fair is already his safest, prime neutral tool so I do not see why not use it to cover both opponents.
:196:

NotLiquid · Mar 20, 2017

|RK| said:
So, here's a very interesting discussion on Twitter about the value of aggression in Smash 4:

https://twitter.com/Pierce7d/status/843678588226453504

Turns out that Pierce believes that a player that can't play aggressively isn't an optimal player. And we see that to some extent with ZeRo - despite the belief that he plays lame, the man is *aggressive*. He just knows when to pull back. Pierce goes on to say that people are stuck on Brawl, and aggressive strategies are the best to win the game. Now, considering many people have said the exact opposite for the longest time, what do you guys think about this?

Sonic is a character somewhat emblematic of this.

He tends to be a bit of a common occurrence at a Top 32 level but usually someone like Manny is snuffed out a lot earlier in bracket than the likes of SuperGirlKels, KEN or 6WX. Manny plays Sonic as way more defensive than any of the latter players, usually relying on mental attrition, but that gets way less effective the further into brackets that he goes, in contrast to the players who are way more oppressive - especially with someone like Sonic you can't let complacency exploit your shortcomings.

It's probably also the reason why I feel CaptainZack is proving himself to be the better Bayonetta between him and Salem. His Bayonetta is an aggressive monster, the only thing Salem has over him is his superior matchup knowledge against ZeRo (while Zack at least has the Dabuz matchup figured out, being able to take on ZeRo seems more preferable).

And of course, Kirihara not relenting against ZeRo in spite of no Luma and succeeding is another recent example that supports the notion.

Lord Dio · Mar 20, 2017

This makes me curious: what about the times where aggression has failed, or at least appears to? Mr E vs Nairo at UGC, Mr R vs Locus at ZeRo saga, Esam vs Abadango at UGC........While aggression has shown to be optimal lately, it's also been shown to not quite work out as well as expected. Sure, you combo someone into 130%, but then 5-6 moves later they can kill you as easily as you can kill them, and now they start playing offensively to get the combo. Is this just not taking advantage of safer moves because that magic 60% you have instills a certain fear in your brain? Is it because your opponent sees you're at kill percent and has now switched to offense, where a trade would likely benefit them more? Is it both of those factors?

Another thing: How can one be expected to be doign the optimal thing when playing a character aggressively is very difficult? Tea and Brood and the other ac man and Duck Hunt mains come to mind. Think about all those crazy setups they have. They don't get those setups through aggression, it takes patience and timing to start a combo that could kill.

Emblem Lord · Mar 20, 2017

Mr.R's aggression is not optimal. How do we know? Because it doesn't end in him clenching a stock. He needs to transition better to his edgeguarding game. He definitely has the skill. It's a matter of adjustment.

Not ever character has a kill confirm. That's ok too. You can lead into situations that can give you killing opportunities and let you control the flow of the match. And as long as you do not overextend you are ok.

Ex./ Force Ryu to tatsu then free bouncing fish. Or force a low drop shoryu to recovery then attempt stage spike fair. Even if you do not get a kill in those situations, Sheik is in no real danger if Ryu does not die.

And if a character lacks the ability to convert advantage states into potentially game winning scenarios then guess what?

That character is not meta. And as I recall this is a thread about the meta right?

Nobie · Mar 20, 2017

Emblem Lord said:
Pierce and I had this discussion about a year ago. Shortly after the shield stun patch actually. Basically we both felt with that patch, that aggression was more or less the optimal way to play. If your character has the reward and you can put someone in a bad situation that can lead to a conversion then you should be doing that. If you can close the stock then ****ing close it. Camping is a legit strat but remember, the longer you camp, the longer you give your opponent an opportunity to figure out the holes in your game.

If you are fighting someone that you notice is very hasty and does foolish things when you camp them, then by all means camp the **** out of them. If camping is the OPTIMAL strategy vs an opponent then DO IT. But once you get them in a bad position you NEED to turn up the heat.

There seem to be certain players who, while good at camping, end up relying on it too much and basically give up opportunities in favor of playing it safe. The most defensive Sonics like Wrath and Manny appear to suffer from this the most.

Nu~ · Mar 20, 2017

Lord Dio said:
This makes me curious: what about the times where aggression has failed, or at least appears to? Mr E vs Nairo at UGC, Mr R vs Locus at ZeRo saga, Esam vs Abadango at UGC........While aggression has shown to be optimal lately, it's also been shown to not quite work out as well as expected. Sure, you combo someone into 130%, but then 5-6 moves later they can kill you as easily as you can kill them, and now they start playing offensively to get the combo. Is this just not taking advantage of safer moves because that magic 60% you have instills a certain fear in your brain? Is it because your opponent sees you're at kill percent and has now switched to offense, where a trade would likely benefit them more? Is it both of those factors?

Another thing: How can one be expected to be doign the optimal thing when playing a character aggressively is very difficult? Tea and Brood and the other ac man and Duck Hunt mains come to mind. Think about all those crazy setups they have. They don't get those setups through aggression, it takes patience and timing to start a combo that could kill.

Well at least for Tea and Pac-Man, just look at some of Zage's sets.

He loses so much mileage when he chooses to charge fruit and run away after putting the opponent in disadvantage, instead of pursuing them and keeping the pressure on. Abadango used to do this as well.

Telegraphed setups and charge obsession keeps Pacman mains in a state of endless nuetral where they can't really get much going. It's understandably hard to keep pursuing the opp when most of your good stuff takes time and micromanagement to set up (part of the reason why Pac-man is both subpar and taxing to play), but when you forgo uair juggles and edgeguard situations to run away and charge...you have a problem.

Where Tea is different is that he'll actually go in when he gets the chance. His setups aren't super telegraphed for the most part, and he knows how to get the kill early when the opponent is feeling pressured.

NotLiquid · Mar 20, 2017

Lord Dio said:
This makes me curious: what about the times where aggression has failed, or at least appears to? Mr E vs Nairo at UGC, Mr R vs Locus at ZeRo saga, Esam vs Abadango at UGC........While aggression has shown to be optimal lately, it's also been shown to not quite work out as well as expected. Sure, you combo someone into 130%, but then 5-6 moves later they can kill you as easily as you can kill them, and now they start playing offensively to get the combo. Is this just not taking advantage of safer moves because that magic 60% you have instills a certain fear in your brain? Is it because your opponent sees you're at kill percent and has now switched to offense, where a trade would likely benefit them more? Is it both of those factors?

Another thing: How can one be expected to be doign the optimal thing when playing a character aggressively is very difficult? Tea and Brood and the other ac man and Duck Hunt mains come to mind. Think about all those crazy setups they have. They don't get those setups through aggression, it takes patience and timing to start a combo that could kill.

Mr R plays Sheik as if he's in endless neutral. In contrast to people like VoiD he has frequent displays of not being able to close out a stock, which is moreso a problem with how he adapts his playstyle.

ESAM's situation is more delicate since he effectively plays a high mid-tier character who statistically has a lot of trouble killing. Neither of those characters have a hard time actually playing aggressive but they require way more out of players when it comes to securing the stock - Sheik less so than Pikachu because she has some good high level kill confirms.

Also there's a difference between aggression and "playing fast/rushing down". Duck Hunt can absolutely be an aggressive character; but that's moreso through deliberate trappings and setting up of their specials in oppressive fashion. Aggression, theoretically, could be as simple as Peach pelting turnips to safely close distance as opposed to creating distance.

It's not the end-all be-all of course, but I would say if you look at the tier list, a lot of mid-to-low placing characters are there because they are incredibly difficult and require a lot of work in adapting to different situations like that.

BSP · Mar 20, 2017

Lord Dio said:
Another thing: How can one be expected to be doign the optimal thing when playing a character aggressively is very difficult? Tea and Brood and the other ac man and Duck Hunt mains come to mind. Think about all those crazy setups they have. They don't get those setups through aggression, it takes patience and timing to start a combo that could kill.

I made a giant post about this very thing in the Pac-Man section of the boards, and it's something his mains need to fix.

It's not so much playing Pac-Man aggressively as it is knowing when and how to capitalize on situations. Izaw talks about this in his art of link video. Even if your character is projectile/setup heavy, you shouldn't be passing up basic opportunities to apply pressure when your opponent is in a bad spot.

If your opponent is offstage, above you without a jump, on the ground after missing a tech, reeling away from you after getting hit, etc, the Pac-Man player should be looking to capitalize on this situation, not backing off to charge fruit. You have no idea how many videos I have watched of Pac-Man players landing hits, then allowing the opponent to land for free only to then be killed by some rage fueled attack later.

verbatim · Mar 20, 2017

Lord Dio said:
Another thing: How can one be expected to be doign the optimal thing when playing a character aggressively is very difficult? Tea and Brood and the other ac man and Duck Hunt mains come to mind. Think about all those crazy setups they have. They don't get those setups through aggression, it takes patience and timing to start a combo that could kill.

Generally speaking, most complicated and hidden tech is practiced heavily to account for character weaknesses.

Sheik players have a gigantic compodium of 50/50's at specific %'s against specific characters and general kill knowledge to make up for the fact that she really struggles to kill out right.

A lot of Duck Hunt setups with grab --> throw --> can were found and popularized because they allow him to get a comparable atdvantage out of grab to other characters.

re Pacman: obviously he has a lot of crazy tools and setups, but even at the highest levels a lot of Pacman's will end up losing because of simple things that they should have paid more attention to. The last big tournament Tea went to he lost in losers to Shuton because he spent 2 minutes fishing for a setup that always loses to shield instead of looking for something simple like fair --> key (this is real), key on airdodging into the ground, etc.

On a more mid-level note, I spent about a year and a half before I realized just how useful Pacman's up air can be. I am still finding interesting and weird ways to use grab in response to common competitive situations.

Something that I think a lot of people underappreciate about Kamemushi is how effectively he uses a lot of Megaman's more basic tools in the neutral. He might win one or two games across a tournament because of a complicated metal blade footstool reset setup, but he gets all of his wins because he uses all of Megaman's tools to play a very strong neutral.

ARISTOS · Mar 20, 2017

Lord Dio said:
Sure, you combo someone into 130%, but then 5-6 moves later they can kill you as easily as you can kill them, and now they start playing offensively to get the combo.

You might be looking at this the wrong way.

Why let them get to a point where you're now at risk of death? You're ahead, they're afraid of losing a stock. Keep up the pressure.

One of the big takeaways from Kirihara's play is just how much pressure he exudes onto his opponents. You can literally see them shaking where they sit as you watch his play. With all respect to ZeRo, you can see all the different panic buttons he's using during the last stock in WF. Against Komorikiri, he literally dashes up to him from the word GO and pushes him offstage; Komo doesn't get even a second to charge Limit. He jump ADs while Kirihara just waits for a decision (Cloud has to at this point), losing the 50-50 decision and then wraps up the stock. 13 seconds.

Aggression doesn't necessarily manifest itself in gung-ho tactics.

NairWizard · Mar 20, 2017

Most important factors in top level tournament play, in order of importance:

#1 How well a player is doing on a given day. Kirihara was on fire during this tournament; Tsu was on fire at Frostbite. Our competitors are human beings and things like mood and practice are at the absolute top of the list in terms of how well they perform.

#2 Player vs. player matchups. ZeRo doesn't have a Mario problem. He's great at the Mario matchup. But Ally will always give him trouble just because of their specific player strengths (ZeRo excels at midrange-neutral, Ally excels at CQC neutral).

#3 Matchup knowledge. Kirihara seems much better in the Diddy matchup than Dabuz. Yes, knowledge is more important than the matchup. Ally used to get smoked by Rosalina before he started using up-b a lot in disadvantage. Larry has destroyed every Mario he's played ever since he started using more bair.

#4 Character choice and bracket luck. Of course it matters. ZSS vs. Diddy is really hard and there's no denying it. Running into your nightmare matchups is a problem. But it's significantly less of one than the three above.

So if you're using top-level results to make claims about viability and matchup charts, make sure you take at least 3 grains of salt, because there are three more important things at the very least that go into determining those results.

Das Koopa · Mar 20, 2017

Finally compiled results from the last 2 weeks.

This week:

1st:

Kirihara

2nd:

TSM | ZeRo

3rd:

ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo

,

4th:

2GG | komorikiri

,

5th:

RNG | Dabuz

5th:

Captain Zack

7th:

Ranai

7th:

MVG | Salem

9th:

PG | ESAM

,

9th:

DNG | Kameme

9th:

Dath

9th:

Cashmere

(Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

13th:

RvL | Mr. E

,

13th:

BOT | SuperGirlKels

(Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

13th:

MVG | dyr

13th:

Earth

,

17th:

Noble | Manny

17th:

Kome

(Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)

17th:

FAD | 2scoops Nicko

17th:

Noble | Ryo

,

17th:

PG | MVD

17th:

FS | Fatality

17th:

Myran

17th:

TNF | Child

25th:

G-FORCE Oni | Day