Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[L9999]

Right now, the least I'm expecting from him is a good show, and that shouldn't be hard, even against Marss.

Marss would and will delete Bizarro from existence, there is no proof otherwise. Bizarro just started playing and he is playing a garbage tier while Marss plays a top tier and has defeated MK Leo, ANTi, VoiD, Komorikiri, and Abadango.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

WNF ft. Komorikiri, Kameme, Abadango, Shuton, T, Tsu, Fuwa, Kome, 9B, HIKARU, Kirihara, Earth, Nietono, and JK. Maybe more people, but those are the ones signed up. Starts in a little less than an hour. There's also Nurse (Canada DK) and a PNW duo of FedvsRafa and Braixen.

If there are more entrants to this there's no telling who takes it lol

Edit: Ton of SoCal entered. VoiD and ANTi entered, Javi is in, Tyroy is in, etc.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/BeefySmashDoods/status/844655512910213120

Elegant and Aarvark got sponsored by Beefy Smash Doods!

 

[littlepuff]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

WNF ft. Komorikiri, Kameme, Abadango, Shuton, T, Tsu, Fuwa, Kome, 9B, HIKARU, Kirihara, Earth, Nietono, and JK. Maybe more people, but those are the ones signed up. Starts in a little less than an hour. There's also Nurse (Canada DK) and a PNW duo of FedvsRafa and Braixen.

If there are more entrants to this there's no telling who takes it lol

Edit: Ton of SoCal entered. VoiD and ANTi entered, Javi is in, Tyroy is in, etc.

Nairo too, maybe?

It's all good and all but why is Ranai not entering damnnn

 

[TDK]

Charliedaking 2-1 Tsu-
Nurse 2-1 Tsu-

Tsu- out at 25th

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Tyroy 2-0 Komorkiri

Can this be considered an upset?

 

[Das Koopa]

komo used marth

 

[TDK]

Tyroy 2-1 Kirihara

This can

 

[Ziodyne 21]

First Komo and now Kirihara right after he won Frame Perfect?


What has Tyroy been taking tonight ?!?

 

[L9999]

Charliedaking 2-1 Tsu-
Nurse 2-1 Tsu-

Tsu- out at 25th

What happened to Tsu? Was Frostbite a fluke or is it Lucario?

First Komo and now Kirihara right after his hype from winning frame Perfect


What is Tyroy taking tonight!

Tyroy is getting his honor back.

 

[TDK]

What happened to Tsu? Was Frostbite a fluke or is it Lucario?

I'm really not sure, but it's probably important to remember Tsu-'s got Japan consistency and Lucario consistency to contend with.

Might have been a fluke though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Earth 2-0 Void


Earth is also getting his honor back tonight!


JK 2-1 Abadango

Abadango out at 13th

Is is just me. Or does it seems like Aba has had a bit of a Bayo problem recently?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Everyone's been having a Bayo problem recently.

 

[ARGHETH]

Kome2-1 Komo offstream, apparently.

 

[TDK]

K9 (Not sure which one, probably Diddy) 2-1 Nietono

 

[OverTime]

Dark pit actually got points today. That's crazy.

 

[TDK]

Dark pit actually got points today. That's crazy.

Dark Pit hasn't won Kameme a game yet.


And since he switched off again, it's highly unlikely Kameme's Dark Pit actually will.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Dark Pit hasn't won Kameme a game yet.


And since he switched off again, it's highly unlikely Kameme's Dark Pit actually will.

Dark Pit won game 1 against 9B

 

[FeelMeUp]

Kameme 3-1 over Shuton .
Shuton spent half the set on the ledge. Olimar seemed pretty helpless to characters holding shield and reacting to everything. Myran didn't seem too far off when he said the character would look like **** when people figure out how bad his disadvantage is.

Guy's also been subtly exposing VoiD for not knowing certain matchups.

 

[Das Koopa]

Wednesday Night Fights Pre-Civil War (March 23rd) (Southern California) (87 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st:

SHIG | 9B
2nd:

DNG | Kameme ,
3rd:

Shuton
4th:

CLG | VoiD
5th:

Earth ,
5th:

E2C | Tyroy
7th:

LH | K9sbruce
7th:

Kirihara
9th:

DNG | Nietono
9th:

Kome
9th:

IMT | ANTi
9th:

YG | JK
13th:

Fuwa
13th:

LH | Charliedaking
13th:

LG | Abadango
13th:

2GG | komorikiri

 

[Monete]

Kameme 3-1 over Shuton .
Shuton spent half the set on the ledge. Olimar seemed pretty helpless to characters holding shield and reacting to everything. Myran didn't seem too far off when he said the character would look like **** when people figure out how bad his disadvantage is.

Guy's also been subtly exposing VoiD for not knowing certain matchups.

That was not Myran, Myran thinks Olimar is a top tier. Angbad said that long ago if im not mistaken.

Shuton is 3rd in Japan and One of the most consistent players there. Olimar is very good.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What happened to Tsu? Was Frostbite a fluke or is it Lucario?

Fox and DK are both pretty bad matchups for Lucario.

 

[FeelMeUp]

That was not Myran, Myran thinks Olimar is a top tier. Angbad said that long ago if im not mistaken.

Shuton is 3rd in Japan and One of the most consistent players there. Olimar is very good.

Sounds more like Angbad. Must've confused it with the few times Myran came in to give his piece.

I and most others already know how amazing Shuton is. Olimar's good but not great, imo. Fear he might have MM syndrome where there'll be a good spurt of success followed by people waking up, learning the matchup, and exposing his flaws. Would like to wait about 3 or 4 more months to see how the counterplay develops.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Wednesday Night Fights Pre-Civil War (March 23rd) (Southern California) (87 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st:

SHIG | 9B
2nd:

DNG | Kameme ,
3rd:

Shuton
4th:

CLG | VoiD
5th:

Earth ,
5th:

E2C | Tyroy
7th:

LH | K9sbruce
7th:

Kirihara
9th:

DNG | Nietono
9th:

Kome
9th:

IMT | ANTi
9th:

YG | JK
13th:

Fuwa
13th:

LH | Charliedaking
13th:

LG | Abadango
13th:

2GG | komorikiri

Komorikiri went cloud when playing Kome and got a game, still lost however.

 

[Monete]

Sounds more like Angbad. Must've confused it with the few times Myran came in to give his piece.

I and most others already know how amazing Shuton is. Olimar's good but not great, imo. Fear he might have MM syndrome where there'll be a good spurt of success followed by people waking up, learning the matchup, and exposing his flaws. Would like to wait about 3 or 4 more months to see how the counterplay develops.

I think Olimar is better than Megaman or Villager, a very underrated character played very campy (Brawl way) but he should be used agro like Shuton or Myran

Yes his disadvantage is pretty awfull but he can rack up damage like almost no one and has great kill power. Worst match ups are very doable as Shuton shows. I also think is the hardest char to use when used agro.

He should be in the top of B tier as i think is a "much better" char than Peach, C.Falcon, Corrin, Greninja, etc.

Just my opinion as a frustrated Olimar main lol.

PD sorry my grammar mistakes

 

[EdgyKnight]

A little late to the placement party there buddy. Still Corrin has been getting results. Either as a solo main or a secondary character.

I'm not saying they're bad but they definitely don't deserve the spot they're at now.

 

[Fenny]

Everyone's been having a Bayo problem recently.

Bayo bodies Japanese players as much as (if not more than) Falcon and the Mario Bros. do.

 

[Illuminose]

i don't get why certain people still mention toon link in the same breath as characters like mk, corrin, and pikachu. toon link is a character with multiple serious, fundamental issues that make it difficult for the character to compete at top level. toon link has major struggles with shield because he has no form of shield pressure whatsoever outside bomb and an awful grab that generally lacks reward aside from back throw kills at high percent. the character has issues with range and with long-lasting hitboxes because toon link lacks range and has its projectiles eaten up by long-lasting hitboxes. toon link also is bad at landing. perhaps most importantly, toon link has a very exploitable recovery that many characters can edgeguard relatively easily, as well as rather poor ledge options that make it difficult to regain stage control.

all of this is reflected in toon link's matchups. now, the socal toon links (zan and das) tend to have a far more optimistic view of toon link than the others, but even they agree: toon link has a horrendous matchup against cloud. if you think about the issues that toon link has...a major part of what it boils down to is that toon link has many issues dealing with cloud's nair, which is a long-lasting move with a lot of range. toon link also has trouble dealing with cloud aerials in general, gets juggled forever with up air, and can even be edgeguarded by neutral air and limit attacks, which cover toon link's limited/exploitable recovery pretty effectively. it's not just cloud, though. the toon links don't necessarily agree on which matchups toon link loses, but many top toon links (there's like 9 notable charts i'm looking at) also agree that toon link has a tough time with mario and yoshi. many also say that toon link has a slight disadvantage against mewtwo, villager, marth, lucina, and meta knight. other matchups that some top toon links list in slight disadvantage include corrin, rosalina, sheik, zss, diddy, fox, ryu, pikachu, sonic, lucario, greninja, shulk, bayonetta, link, and pit. that doesn't mean toon link loses all of these matchups, but most list around 10 total losing matchups or a couple more. that's the matchup chart of a mid tier, not a high tier. mid tiers can succeed in this game, so that's not some kind of punishment. but toon link is not within the caliber of a top 15 or top 20 character, not at all.

 

[|RK|]

Fox and DK are both pretty bad matchups for Lucario.

Fox, however, is legit awful. Frostbite would have been different if Larry were there IMO.

EDIT: Regarding an earlier post - Olimar's disadvantage is kinda trash. He can't land, he can't get off ledge. MU is way easier once people get that.

 

[The-Technique]

Not just Larry, Nairo too. That matchup would have been very ugly for Tsu to handle.

Lucario has a lot of bad matchups not just against top tiers but high tiers as well, even mid tiers. I can't see Lucario rising any greater than high tier, his gameplan isn't sustainable as we're beginning to see.

Olimar's disadvantage is kinda trash. He can't land, he can't get off ledge. MU is way easier once people get that.

I dunno, to me that's like saying "Cloud has a bad disadvantage/recovery" or "Bowser/DK can't land" it doesn't paint the whole picture of how the matchup is played. Olimar has a couple of explosive tools that most characters have to respect, and it doesn't help that his neutral reaaaally tries the patience of whoever he's fighting.

 

[Man Li Gi]

For a while, Tyroy wasn't going to Civil War. No money and stuff. Now he's there, I wonder how he does when all lights are on him. Going down 3-0 against DKwill at Midwest Saga may be fluky, but who knows.

All I want is for Nurse, Konga, DKwill, and Hikaru to do well. If they make top 32 tho.

 

[HoSmash4]

Void made too many key errors and overextensions vs Shuton. I don't think the matchup is that bad for Olimar though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Tyroy is looking pretty good if his performance at WNF yesterday anything. He managed to beat Komo (although Komo was using Marth, take that as you will) and also Kirahara who just came off his 1st place win at Frame Perfect. Placing 5th in one of the most stacked WNF's in recent memory is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

 

[freeziebeatz]

This is Tsu-'s OrionRank Record.

Spoiler: Tsu-

Main -
Region - Japan

OrionRank2016 - 68th

Category 4
Niconico Tokaigi - 4th (Kanto)
Frostbite 2017 - 2nd (Midwest)
Frame Perfect Series 2 - 25th (Florida)

Category 3
Umebura x Single-Chu - 9th (Kanto)
Sumabato 15 - 7th (Kansai)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier - 33rd (Kanto)
Smashfield Weeklies #78 - 1st (Midwest)

Category 1
Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite - 5th (Midwest)

Qualified Players Beaten
x1 9B (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Abadango (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Brood (Umebura x Single-Chu)
x2 Kameme (Niconico Tokaigi | Frostbite 2017)
x1 KEN (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Kirihara (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Mr.R (Niconico Tokaigi)
x1 Raito (Umebura x Single-Chu)
x1 Salem (Frostbite 2017)
x2 Shuton (Smashfield Weeklies #78)
x1 Some (Sumabato 15)
x1 Tweek (Frostbite 2017)
x1 VoiD (Frostbite 2017)
x1 ZeRo (Frostbite 2017)

Qualified Player Losses
x1 9B (Sumabato 15)
x1 Cashmere (Frame Perfect Series 2)
x1 dyr (Frame Perfect Series 2)
x1 Earth (Umebura x Single-Chu)
x1 Kameme (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frostbite)
x1 KEN (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Kirihara (NicoNico Tokaigi)
x1 Shuton (Gamer's Gauntlet Pre-Frosbite)
x2 ZeRo (Frosbite 2017)

Unqualified Player Losses
x1 Atelier (Umebura x Single-Chu)
x1 Kisha (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Lea (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
x1 Saiya (Sumabato 15)

His 2017 record is not bad, he just has some consistency issues.

 

[my_T]

Tsu~ doesn't have consistency issues, Lucario just has a variety of bad MU's that people apparently are not aware of.



Some of these MU's are a little bit worse than others but Tsu~ as well as other top Lucarios like Goma and Motsunabe have lost numerous sets to most of the above characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucario struggled with a few other characters. If anything is inconsistent here it's Lucario

 

[Yikarur]

A lot of people say that Ike is Lucarios worst match-up

 

[|RK|]

Tsu~ doesn't have consistency issues, Lucario just has a variety of bad MU's that people apparently are not aware of.



Some of these MU's are a little bit worse than others but Tsu~ as well as other top Lucarios like Goma and Motsunabe have lost numerous sets to most of the above characters. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucario struggled with a few other characters. If anything is inconsistent here it's Lucario

The only REALLY bad one there is Fox. DK and Bowser maybe, but that probably needs a little more camping. As I explained on Reddit, Lucario doesn't just lose to kill power or kill confirms. He loses to mobility and kill confirms. That's why you'll see Falcon, Cloud, Fox, and ZSS doing so well. I don't really think the grapplers, Ryu, or Corrin are issues. I don't know anything about the Lucas MU, so no comment. Ness... I've played the MU and done well, but IDK too much there, either. It hasn't been a personal struggle so far. Sheik is... complex. Rushdown probably is best, as ZeRo and Kameme have shown. Camping will get Sheik killed.

Mewtwo is iffy. He does have both speed and kill power, but he doesn't have S tier juggling or amazing CQC. But he does have other tools... IDK. I do know that Tsu beat Abadango 2-1 pre-Frostbite.

EDIT: Yikarur - ehhhhh, I haven't heard that from Lucario players not named Day.

 

[my_T]

Lucario losing to Ike actually makes a lot of sense, don't know about it being his worst MU though. Ike has a lot of range + disjoint, solid kill power/options, and very strong edge guarding tools like dtilt and neutral B to punish Lucarios garbage ledge snap. Lucario struggles with long ranged disjoints in general.

|RK| There's plenty of high/top level video footage out there for most of those MU's I listed. Theory does not look good for Lucario in those MU's either.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox, however, is legit awful.

True but the Fox player will still have to adapt to a certain extent and understand how the matchup vs Lucario works. Practically, characters like DK, ZSS and Ike have an easier time against Lucario because they'll beat him simply by doing what they always do.

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: Japanese players seem to have a Bayonetta problem because most of them seem to lack knowledge and/or execution against her.
Most of the time they won't SDI, even when the following Witch Twist and Afterburner Kick are obvious (Kirihara probably would've survived if he SDI'd down).
But most importantly, they 90% of the time will (regular) DI up, if Bayonetta reads DI up she'll followup more easily, and only moving up makes the 0-to-deaths possible. DI down leads to different followups but none would realistically carry you to the top.

I haven't really seen how other top players respond to Bayonetta's combos, but this is the trend I noticed from the Japanese.


Only Kameme seems to mix up his DI, implements SDI, and even punished Bayo's Fair 1 with Sheik's own Fair before Fair2 could connect.
Probably the matchup is so bad for Mega man that even with all of those, he still loses to Bayos so consistently.