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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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TDK

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Frame Perfect Series 2 Pools are out. Here's my pool prediction

A1: ESAM :4pikachu: vs Dyr :4diddy:, Zeta :4bayonetta2: :4zss: :4marth:
A2: MVD :4diddy: vs Day :4lucario:, Bloodcross :4fox: :4charizard: in third
A3: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic: vs Xaltis :rosalina:, Tachyon :4pikachu: in third
A4: Ranai :4villager: vs Saj :4bayonetta2:, Pillow :4lucina: :4zss: :4sheik: in third

B1: Salem :4bayonetta2: vs SuperGirlKels :4sonic:, Nick Riddle :4zss: :4bowser: in third
B2: Mr. E :4marth: vs Prince Ramen :4palutena:, Seibrik :4cloud2: :4metaknight: in third
B3: Dabuz :rosalina: vs Rideae :4pikachu:, Ross :4tlink: in third
B4: Kameme :4megaman: vs Myran :4olimar:, True Blue :4sonic: in third

C1: Captain Zack :4bayonetta2: vs Zenyou :4mario:, Tremendo Dude :4shulk:
C2: Kirihara :rosalina: vs Ryo :4myfriends: :4feroy: :4corrinf:, DOOM! :rosalina: in third
C3: Earth :4pit: vs Static Manny :4sonic: :4feroy:, Blank :4sheik: in third
C4: Fatality :4falcon: vs Kome :4shulk:, Leo Heart :4mewtwo: in third

D1: ZeRo :4diddy: vs Child :4bayonetta2:, RoguePenguin :4mario: in third
D2: Tsu- :4lucario: vs 8BitMan :4rob: :4diddy:. Cashmere :4falcon: in third
D3: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4marth: vs Fuwa :4marth:, ~MuteAce~ :4peach: in third
D4: Mew2King :4cloud2: vs Dath :4robinf:, Nicko :4shulk: in third

ZeRo's got one of the easiest pools I've ever seen, good lord.
DOOM! was moved from A1 (A pool where he might've been able to upset either of the top 2 players in it) to C2, meaning one of DOOM! and DJ Jack probably won't make it out of pools. Tremendo Dude was moved from C3 to C1. Nicko was moved from B4 to D4, and True Blue was moved from D4 to B4.

Doom got screwed badly.
 

Rizen

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Doom got screwed badly.
Here's how I picture that.


On the topic of camping, it never last but while it does you get free damage if your character out-camps the opponent. IMO characters who can camp should more. Too often I see the better camper approach. Sheik for example is a huge pain to track down if she plays keep away with needles; then she can transition into Sheik stuff combos/juggles at the right time.
 

Das Koopa

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Diddy x Lucario looks just as good as I dreamed


https://twitter.com/kei1122xdx/status/843089189553897474
Apparently Mr.R played more then a dozen Japanese today including

Shuton:4olimar:
HIKARU:4dk:
Oishiitofu:4greninja:
You3:4duckhunt:
Tea:4pacman:
Corrin:4myfriends:

Mr.R said out of all these players Tea:4pacman:was one of the Hardest he's played so far in his time in Japan. With the set being 3-2

We Did it Boyz:4pacman::4pacman:
This makes Tea not going to the US feel even worse

But hopefully he'll come at EVO.
 
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Nu~

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https://twitter.com/kei1122xdx/status/843089189553897474
Apparently Mr.R played more then a dozen Japanese players today including

Shuton:4olimar:
HIKARU:4dk:
Oishiitofu:4greninja:
You3:4duckhunt:
Tea:4pacman:
Corrin:4myfriends:

Mr.R said out of all these players Tea:4pacman:was one of the Hardest he's played so far in his time in Japan. With the set being 3-2

We Did it Boyz:4pacman::4pacman:
Return of The Pac?

Mr.R said that it felt like Tea pulled off an endless amount of setups that he's never seen before.
 

TDK

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Poltergust :4yoshi: takes it 2-1 over Earth :4pit: at Frame Perfect Series 2!

Everything I've said about Pit happened here. Earth was winning neutral many more times than Poltergust, but Poltergust made his neutral wins count so much more than Earth, which is why he won. In game 3, he actually took a decisive lead in the second stock and was controlling Neutral.
 

Das Koopa

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really bad look for Earth this year

I dunno what happened. It really must be Pit's meta falling apart.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Pit not being good is probably a huge part of this.

Well I think everyone can agree that Pit is not a "bad: character, hes just does not seem to the all that good either. Sadly,there is no just no place in the competitive meta for a "100% fair & honest" character
 
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TDK

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Honest characters just don't work when every relevant character has something dishonest that can turn the tide of the game instantly, kill super early, or have a ridiculous advantage state.

And the ones that arguably don't have any of those have a better neutral than pit anyways.
 

Emblem Lord

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Yeah I mean at this point we know what the meta is and Pit is not it. Unsafe buttons with mediocre hitboxes? lolwut?

He has a good recovery, solid edgeguarding and above average zoning. But that is just not enough.
 

Sinister Slush

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Along with the fact both yoshi and pit being generally honest characters, it comes down to which one has the slightly better kit and that goes over to Yoshi.

Better combos, damage rack up, weight etc.
Polt's neutral has always been super safe and campy to the point it lost him games while being incredibly basic and it worked well for him in the past (brawl) and still does now to an extent so good on polt for beating a player with a crazy neutral like Earth.

Surprised Earth didn't pull out the corrin against him, would've been infinitely easier for him but then Polt would maybe respond with his Luigi CP.
 

Emblem Lord

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Earth wants to play Brawl (forever neutral) so bad in Smash 4.

You better get these hit/grab conversions in these streets fam.
 

Luigi player

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Can't really say I can join in on this "stop playing Pit" train.

Just because Earth lost against someone (who mains a generally underrated character) he wasn't expected to doesn't mean all his other accomplishments are lost. It might be true that Earth is kind of "struggling" to keep up with Pit lately, but overall he still does fine.

I mean sure, everyone should only play top tiers if they just care about winning, but that's obviously not what Earth cares about the most since he's always played that character.
 
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FeelMeUp

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He can play Pit. Just saying there's no reason to when you can play Sheik instead.
She does exactly what he wants much better in every single area minus air to air juggling.
Earth in particular is a guy I've always felt could be top 5 if he made the switch.
 
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Laken64

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He has been playing more Corrin recently in Japan and he has said he doesn't have much confidence in bringing it to the states, so maybe eventually he'll start bringing out the Corrin if he feels like it's ready?
 
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Emblem Lord

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He does not need to play top tier.

He is just a perfect example of what character loyalty will do to a competitor with massive talent.
 
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BSP

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https://twitter.com/kei1122xdx/status/843089189553897474
Apparently Mr.R played more then a dozen Japanese players today including

Shuton:4olimar:
HIKARU:4dk:
Oishiitofu:4greninja:
You3:4duckhunt:
Tea:4pacman:
Corrin:4myfriends:

Mr.R said out of all these players Tea:4pacman:was one of the Hardest he's played so far in his time in Japan. With the set being 3-2

We Did it Boyz:4pacman::4pacman:
On that note, I took a set from Samsora's :rosalina: with :4pacman: in a money match, 2-1. Then I got wrecked by Peach in a runback, but that's beside the point.

One day I will show that the former MU isn't "lol down B".
 

TDK

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No Man's Land (Oklaholma) (122 Entrants)

1st: Shoyo James :4luigi: :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4tlink: :4villager:
3rd: Deezus :4ryu:
4th: Chuck Nasty :4charizard: :4metaknight: :4bowser:
5th: Very Freezer :4luigi:
5th: Holms :4feroy:
7th: Muse :4tlink:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:

Chuck Nasty is the best american Zard, that much is clear. I'd still say Sharpy's better overall, but that remains to be seen until Sharpy gets to the US.

Hirosuma: Revolution (Japan) (101 Entrants)

1st: Mr. R :4sheik: :4cloud2:
2nd: Nietono :4sheik:
3rd: Ron :4mario:
4th: Mattsun :4cloud2:
5th: 9B :4bayonetta2:
5th: Shogun :4fox:
7th: Choco :4zss:
7th: HIDE :4sonic:

Notably, Ron took a set from Mr. R, though Mr. R four-stocked him in the runback.
 
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HoSmash4

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Well done everyone. Pit isnt as good as people think.

It isnt underepresentation. Earth and Kuro are both producing results on a good level.
Thats just his cap.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Earth wants to play Brawl (forever neutral) so bad in Smash 4.
That's just how Pit works in Smash 4:

The problem with Pit is he is not rewarding to play. You gain very little mileage from outplaying your opponent as Pit.
Reward, as it has turned out over time, seems to be more significant in smash 4 than risk which is why high-risk / high-reward characters like Fox and Mewtwo do better than low-risk / low-reward characters like Pit. Earth plays the Brawl game because that's how Pit works but Smash 4 just doesn't provide the environment for such a character to be successful on a consistent basis - not even a player as skilled and reliable as Earth can do something about that.

At this point it's really just a question of what kind of success Earth is looking for. If he is satisfied being the best Pit player on the planet for all eternity then he doesn't need to do anything. If he wants to win tournaments? Then he has to come to terms with the idea of having to pick up a viable secondary - Corrin most certainly won't cut it but he has a competent Fox and he once was, as some veteran SWF users may remember, the best Sheik player in Japan way back in 08-09. I'm nore seeing it happen though, I think he'll continue to stick with Pit for the most part.

:059:
 

Jaguar360

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No Man's Land (Oklaholma) (122 Entrants)

1st: Shoyo James :4luigi: :4diddy:
2nd: MJG :4tlink: :4villager:
3rd: Deezus :4ryu:
4th: Chuck Nasty :4charizard:
5th: Very Freezer :4luigi:
5th: Holms :4feroy:
7th: Muse :4tlink:
7th: Cheezeballer :4dk:

Chuck Nasty is the best american Zard, that much is clear. I'd still say Sharpy's better overall, but that remains to be seen until Sharpy gets to the US.

Hirosuma: Revolution (Japan) (64 Entrants)

1st: Mr. R :4sheik: :4cloud2:
2nd: Nietono :4sheik:
3rd: Ron :4mario:
4th: Mattsun :4cloud2:

Notably, Ron took a set from Mr. R, though Mr. R four-stocked him in the runback.
Hirosuma was 101 entrants, pools here.

Chuck Nasty definitely continues to impress. I hope he goes to EVO 2017 to be highest-placing Zard again.

Kingslayer 3 (Ohio) (68 entrants)

1. Ryuga :4corrin:
2. LOE1 :4luigi::4diddy:
3. LordMix :4bowser:
4. Colinies :4fox:
5. Ksev :4fox:
5. Nom :4sheik:
7. King Beef :substitute: (History of using Sheik, Marth, Fox, Pit, Diddy, and R.O.B.)
7. Agent :4diddy::4luigi:
 

Mr. Johan

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Just to clarify, Chuck also used :4metaknight: and :4bowser: in bracket yesterday too. Charizard wasn't used 100% of the time.
 

Hippieslayer

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With respect, I appreciate you commenting on the subject, but these kind of quotes are precisely why there is so much confusion and delusion around Lucina.

This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption. There are very few occasions where character weight affects how the MU plays out. Dedede is one of the only notable examples, where Marth simply cannot KO him without a tipper, due to his amazing vertical survivability, and his actually solid recovery; by that, I mean hitting a sourspot off stage won't gimp him the same way it could Bowser, Ganondorf, even DK who you can counter his Up B - Dedede will be able to make it back with his jumps and super armor Up B.

Marth beats Jigglypuff for example because he has the frame data and the range to safely wall her out. Lucina also has this. Lucina doesn't do better against light characters because she lacks a tipper and can consistently KO them. If that were the case, I could just as easily say "Marth does better against light characters because he can KO them all at 30%". It's simply a poorly backed argument.

Perhaps it's better to leave the main discussion to the actual character specialists, rather than coming out with a bold quote like that. I appreciate it if you didn't mean to phrase your quote like that, but it certainly came across as "this is a fact" rather than "perhaps she does better vs..."
Okay? You haven't said anything pertaining to my post. With all due respect.
 

my_T

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Wouldn't really describe M2 or Fox as high-risk/high-reward. Part of the reason they're so good is because they have so many low-risk options in most MU's.
 

Guido65

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Wouldn't really describe M2 or Fox as high-risk/high-reward. Part of the reason they're so good is because they have so many low-risk options in most MU's.
Think what gheb meant as mewtwo and fox being high risk is the fact that they have no get out of disadvantage state card(mostly fox) and mewtwo's disadvantage state isn't exactly stellar due to things such has his weird hurtbox extensions when in tumblel,lack of a get the **** off of me move(fastest option is frame 6), and a slow double jumps which makes some things that are normally just mixups true on him(things like link's jab jab up smash seem to work much easier on him compared to everyone else because of this).
 
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TDK

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What made people think Pikachu beat Rosalina again?

ESAM's gotten his rear handed to him by Dabuz over and over and just got 3-0ed by Kirihara.
 

my_T

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Think what gheb meant as mewtwo and fox being high risk is the fact that they have no get out of disadvantage state card(mostly fox) and mewtwo's disadvantage state isn't exactly stellar due to things such has his weird hurtbox extensions when in tumblel,lack of a get the **** off of me move(fastest option is frame 6), and a slow double jumps which makes some things that are normally just mixups true on him(things like link's jab jab up smash seem to work much easier on him compared to everyone else because of this).
I know exactly what he meant. My point is that they have so many low-risk options in neutral that it's hard to put them in a disadvantaged state. I wouldn't classify a design like this as high risk.
 

Jaguar360

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At Rise 2017:

Luthie :4zss: 3-2 Elegant :4luigi:
Solid :4charizard: 3-0 Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
SS :4cloud: 3-2 Ven :4zelda:

Solid and his partner Apachai/Apa~ :4ryu: also beat Ally + Rich Brown as well as Stroder and Saiki in Doubles getting 4th overall. Arizona is strong!
 
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Aaron1997

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How to beat Cloud 101 FT. Kirihara

2 :rosalina:'s in top 8 but this character is dead guys.

(Tbh I was on the Rosa is not good train to and I 'm kind of still am)
 
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Hippieslayer

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But he did. He essentially said you were wrong, and quite frankly you were. Light characters aren't any harder to tipper than heavier characters and that's not a reason why Lucina would do better in any light character match ups..
I didn't say light characters were harder to tipper.
 
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