Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Some notable Lower-mid and below character specialists attending Civil War:

Spoiler

SM
Ryo
Glutonny
ImHip
Nicko
Kome
Tremendo Dude
T
Scizor
Jonny Westside
TLTC
Draquaza (Not sure how notable he really is but hey)
Silentdoom
ViceGrip
Taternator
Ac
B7Games
Ven
Sin

Potentially coming: John Numbers

Predicting at least one upset from at least one of these characters.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can't wait to see a zard main do something though with how stacked this tourney is? I have no clue how this is going to go....

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Can't wait to see a zard main do something though with how stacked this tourney is? I have no clue how this is going to go....

If Sharpy comes...

Zard could do some real work.

The other too aren't good enough to get out of pools imo.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/EVO/status/842209725429121024

Evo Japan confirmed.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

https://twitter.com/EVO/status/842209725429121024

Evo Japan confirmed.

It's been known for awhile, but this is the official date. Really excited for smash 4 wise in this because of all the Japanese Talent that could arrive and I'm sure many other top players from the states could go as well.

 

[Hippieslayer]

People would rather have Hackoru than Sharpy? Wow, people are really boring. For reals, what is wrong with some people. Noobs shouldn't get to vote.

On Lucina: She's better vs light characters which are hard to tipper. Marth is better against everyone else.

 

[blackghost]

Some notable Lower-mid and below character specialists attending Civil War:

Spoiler

SM
Ryo
Glutonny
ImHip
Nicko
Kome
Tremendo Dude
T
Scizor
Jonny Westside
TLTC
Draquaza (Not sure how notable he really is but hey)
Silentdoom
ViceGrip
Taternator
Ac
B7Games
Ven
Sin

Potentially coming: John Numbers

Predicting at least one upset from at least one of these characters.

I think Nicko and sin are good picks for upsets depending on character matchup of course.
Ryo is mostly a corrin player these days right? Not sure he should be listed here.
On the Lucina and marth thing if some Lucia advocate or player could go through some notable matches in tournament play where she would have done better than marth that may help their case more than just theory.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On Lucina: She's better vs light characters which are hard to tipper. Marth is better against everyone else.

With respect, I appreciate you commenting on the subject, but these kind of quotes are precisely why there is so much confusion and delusion around Lucina.

This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption. There are very few occasions where character weight affects how the MU plays out. Dedede is one of the only notable examples, where Marth simply cannot KO him without a tipper, due to his amazing vertical survivability, and his actually solid recovery; by that, I mean hitting a sourspot off stage won't gimp him the same way it could Bowser, Ganondorf, even DK who you can counter his Up B - Dedede will be able to make it back with his jumps and super armor Up B.

Marth beats Jigglypuff for example because he has the frame data and the range to safely wall her out. Lucina also has this. Lucina doesn't do better against light characters because she lacks a tipper and can consistently KO them. If that were the case, I could just as easily say "Marth does better against light characters because he can KO them all at 30%". It's simply a poorly backed argument.

Perhaps it's better to leave the main discussion to the actual character specialists, rather than coming out with a bold quote like that. I appreciate it if you didn't mean to phrase your quote like that, but it certainly came across as "this is a fact" rather than "perhaps she does better vs..."

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think Nicko and sin are good picks for upsets depending on character matchup of course.
Ryo is mostly a corrin player these days right? Not sure he should be listed here.
On the Lucina and marth thing if some Lucia advocate or player could go through some notable matches in tournament play where she would have done better than marth that may help their case more than just theory.

The last two tournament results for Ryo I've seen recorded in this topic, he didn't use Corrin at all. One was Ike/Roy, the other was solo Ike.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Sharpy comes...

Zard could do some real work.

The other too aren't good enough to get out of pools imo.

Sharpy is on a different level than every other Zard imo.

Still Silent and Draquaza have a shot depending on their pools.

 

[TDK]

While he hasn't officially registered, Shoyo James has been fully funded for Civil War and will most likely make an appearance.

 

[freeziebeatz]

Interesting application of Doc's Tornado off stage.

 

[Rizen]

Interesting application of Doc's Tornado off stage.

I watched the video and the opponents had no idea how to recover. Most of the clips covered the same options a run-ff Nair would :/

 

[Laken64]

I think Nicko and sin are good picks for upsets depending on character matchup of course.
Ryo is mostly a corrin player these days right? Not sure he should be listed here.
On the Lucina and marth thing if some Lucia advocate or player could go through some notable matches in tournament play where she would have done better than marth that may help their case more than just theory.

I think Ryo kinda unofficially dropped Corrin to work more on his Roy, not completely sure though.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/842552232650317824
Sad news: Tea can't go to Civil war. I guess were going to have to wait a little Longer.

 

[Das Koopa]

FeelsBadMan :gun:

 

[TDK]

A1: ESAM vs Dyr , Zeta
A2: MVD vs Day , Bloodcross in third
A3: Komorikiri vs Xaltis , Tachyon in third
A4: Ranai vs Saj , Pillow in third

B1: Salem vs SuperGirlKels , Nick Riddle in third
B2: Mr. E vs Prince Ramen , Seibrik in third
B3: Dabuz vs Rideae , Ross in third
B4: Kameme vs Myran , True Blue in third

C1: Captain Zack vs Zenyou , Tremendo Dude
C2: Kirihara vs Ryo , DOOM! in third
C3: Earth vs Static Manny , Blank in third
C4: Fatality vs Kome , Leo Heart in third

D1: ZeRo vs Child , RoguePenguin in third
D2: Tsu- vs 8BitMan . Cashmere in third
D3: MKLeo vs Fuwa , ~MuteAce~ in third
D4: Mew2King vs Dath , Nicko in third

ZeRo's got one of the easiest pools I've ever seen, good lord.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Interesting application of Doc's Tornado off stage.

While i do like the research Kwamstacks goes for, for the development of the metagame of the best Doctor.
I'll have to say, this is probably among the most unpractical & useless edgeguarding tools Doc has at disposal. It really is an inefficient bait considering Doc Tornado's lag, so much so that better opponents can react to it on the spot. Doc has much more efficient edgeguarding tools than that. Most notably, Tornado's excellent raw knockback & ability to frame trap airdodge due to its very long lasting hitbox makes it a very strong tool to just use when you've reached someone offstage, they'll usually just get hit by it because, as i said, their airdodge will be frametrapped by the move. Pills to snipe low recoveries are very efficient, the angle to get at the ledge isn't exactly hard to get either and they can be awkward for the opp to deal with. Nair can be pretty neat because unlike Mario, and as we know, the longer it lasts, the more powerful it gets. Finally, Bair's also a pretty neat option because of a decent angle & power, either to ledge trump or just edgeguarding.
So yeah, Dr.Mario's edgeguarding is quite varied & efificient enough, and this mixup won't find much use.

 

[Aaron1997]

TDK Looks like someone must really hate Villagers because they don't want Ranai to do well because the last like 5 events have had Ranai vs DLC imo

 

[littlepuff]

TDK Looks like someone must really hate Villagers because they don't want Ranai to do well because the last like 5 events have had Ranai vs DLC imo

I'm not giving up hope since he beat ikep at Togaki(somewhat unconvincingly, though) and took two of Salem's stocks with his own two stocks at the Frostbite crew battle(also somewhat unconvincingly...)

 

[FullMoon]

Huh I didn't know aMSa still played Sm4sh

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

TDK FullMoon unfortunately amsa can't attend frame perfect 2 because he got sick at the last moment

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Frame Perfect Series 2 Pools are out. Here's my pool prediction

A1: ESAM vs Dyr , DOOM! in third
A2: MVD vs Day , Bloodcross in third
A3: Komorikiri vs Xaltis , Tachyon in third
A4: Ranai vs Saj , I don't recognize anyone else in this pool so I can't give an opinion on who third is

B1: Salem vs SuperGirlKels , Nick Riddle in third
B2: Mr. E vs Prince Ramen , Seibrik in third
B3: Dabuz vs Rideae , Ross in third
B4: Kameme vs Nicko , Myran in third

C1: Captain Zack vs Zenyou , I don't recognize anyone else in this pool so I can't give an opinion on who third is
C2: Kirihara vs Ryo , DJ Jack in third
C3: Earth vs Static Manny , Tremendo Dude in third
C4: Fatality vs Kome , aMSa in third

D1: ZeRo vs Child , RoguePenguin in third
D2: Tsu- vs 8BitMan . Cashmere in third
D3: MKLeo vs Fuwa , ~MuteAce~ in third
D4: Mew2King vs Dath , True Blue in third

ZeRo's got one of the easiest pools I've ever seen, good lord.

Her first tournament match in American soil and Fuwa probably has it the hardest already: MKLeo.

 

[Nu~]

I know everyone is thinking of Civil War atm (and Tea can't make it, which pushes Pac-Man back into obscurity :,[ ) but this is something big.
Completely changes the matchup.

Can any other character do this to mewtwo?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I know everyone is thinking of Civil War atm (and Tea can't make it, which pushes Pac-Man back into obscurity :,[ ) but this is something big.
Completely changes the matchup.

Can any other character do this to mewtwo?

Well looking at Pac's framedata his jab 2 has a FAF of 22 so I'd assume any character who a jab 2 FAF of 22 with the same crouch speed (I don't know if each character has individual crouch speeds) and then of course similar angle and knockback values could likely do it. Mario is a candidate. It's definitely worth looking into I'm not a lab kinda guy so I'd probably mess something up if I tested it lol

 

[Jaguar360]

Frame Perfect Series 2 Pools are out. Here's my pool prediction

A1: ESAM vs Dyr , DOOM! in third
A2: MVD vs Day , Bloodcross in third
A3: Komorikiri vs Xaltis , Tachyon in third
A4: Ranai vs Saj , I don't recognize anyone else in this pool so I can't give an opinion on who third is

B1: Salem vs SuperGirlKels , Nick Riddle in third
B2: Mr. E vs Prince Ramen , Seibrik in third
B3: Dabuz vs Rideae , Ross in third
B4: Kameme vs Nicko , Myran in third

C1: Captain Zack vs Zenyou , I don't recognize anyone else in this pool so I can't give an opinion on who third is
C2: Kirihara vs Ryo , DJ Jack in third
C3: Earth vs Static Manny , Tremendo Dude in third
C4: Fatality vs Kome , aMSa in third

D1: ZeRo vs Child , RoguePenguin in third
D2: Tsu- vs 8BitMan . Cashmere in third
D3: MKLeo vs Fuwa , ~MuteAce~ in third
D4: Mew2King vs Dath , True Blue in third

ZeRo's got one of the easiest pools I've ever seen, good lord.

UtopianRay is very capable of beating MVD or Day from his performances during his trips in NYC. He's beaten Frozen, Dill, Raptor, John Numbers, Angel Cortes and Sinji while here and gave Venia a run for his money on Wednesday. Not sure what his CFL results look like, but he would likely make it over Bloodcross.

 

[verbatim]

UtopianRay is very capable of beating MVD or Day from his performances during his trips in NYC. He's beaten Frozen, Dill, Raptor, John Numbers, Angel Cortes and Sinji while here and gave Venia a run for his money on Wednesday. Not sure what his CFL results look like, but he would likely make it over Bloodcross.

Noted. Do you know where they are from?

 

[Jaguar360]

Noted. Do you know where they are from?

UtopianRay is from Central Florida, but spends a lot of time in New York because of his family. I just checked his Twitter though and he has to stay in NY during FPS because of family issues so ignore me TDK .

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I know everyone is thinking of Civil War atm (and Tea can't make it, which pushes Pac-Man back into obscurity :,[ ) but this is something big.
Completely changes the matchup.

Can any other character do this to mewtwo?

And if mewtwo SDIs?

 

[TDK]

TDK FullMoon unfortunately amsa can't attend frame perfect 2 because he got sick at the last moment

Drat.

Leo Heart would be my next guess, though he might've upset aMSa anyways.

 

[Kofu]

I know everyone is thinking of Civil War atm (and Tea can't make it, which pushes Pac-Man back into obscurity :,[ ) but this is something big.
Completely changes the matchup.

Can any other character do this to mewtwo?

Forgive me, but I'm a little skeptical. The didn't show it being used in a real match and thus didn't account for the affects of staling, which would reduce the knockback and make it easier for Mewtwo to escape. Second, Pac-Man's jab has set knocback, which means that higher percents on Mewtwo shouldn't necessarily lead into a grab more than low percents (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Nu~]

And if mewtwo SDIs?

Look at the first comment by @Zage himself.

Forgive me, but I'm a little skeptical. The didn't show it being used in a real match and thus didn't account for the affects of staling, which would reduce the knockback and make it easier for Mewtwo to escape. Second, Pac-Man's jab has set knocback, which means that higher percents on Mewtwo shouldn't necessarily lead into a grab more than low percents (IIRC, correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm not fully certain of the details either. However, Zage, the founder, seems to believe that it works and I managed to pull it off in friendlies if that means anything,

 

[san.]

I know everyone is thinking of Civil War atm (and Tea can't make it, which pushes Pac-Man back into obscurity :,[ ) but this is something big.
Completely changes the matchup.

Can any other character do this to mewtwo?

This needs to be tested with rage, since it increases hitstun and knockback for weight-based knockback.
Also, weight-based knockback isn't affected by staling.

It works so well on Mewtwo since he's very light (high hitstun received from jabs), big, and isn't really floaty for his weight. Even if it's not perfect, Mewtwo also lacks frame 3 attack/escape options. I'm not sure how quick his sideB can escape from juggles relative to a normal double jump, but that's also likely below average.

The next characters to test on would be all of the light medium/fastfallers with rage.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Japanese event tomorrow with...

Mr.R
Ron
9B
Choco
Nietono
Ginko
Edge
FILIP
OCEAN
Nasubi
Zaki
Rudolph(Yes the Melee Rudolph)

Note: Mr.R has been Training in Japan this past month or so.
Who's going next Hidden Boss that will beat Mr.R 4Head Kappa

 

[TDK]

OCEAN

Did I miss something? I thought OCEAN was a Rob?

 

[Aaron1997]

TDK He switched to Sonic sometime after G4

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Japanese event tonight with...

Mr.R
Ron
9B
Choco
Nietono
Ginko
Edge
FILIP
OCEAN
Nasubi
Zaki
Rudolph(Yes the Melee Rudolph)

Note: Mr.R has been Training in Japan this past month or so.
Who's going next Hidden Boss that will beat Mr.R 4Head Kappa

after the week I've had I ****ing need this

Mr. R gonna be awesome and I hope Rudolph's good at smash 4

 

[SaltyKracka]

i too wonder why i play this tr4sh when I get hard read on a roll by Ganondorf after outplaying them in neutral as Sheik 80% of the game

>

yeah, sure. "Outplaying".

 

[Das Koopa]

yeah, sure. "Outplaying".

hey man needle camping is optimal

not my fault ganon moves with the swiftness or a heroine-addicted snail

It is pretty scary playing against heavy-hitters, though. You get tense more easily knowing that "just one hit" is always in your face. I think that psychological element is pretty big.

 

[FeelMeUp]

misspacing needles against ganon and bowser is a lot easier than it seems. i'm more an advocate of overwhelming them with your good data than trying to camp. If you have solid safe aggression like Mr. R the gameplan is borderline riskless.
Once they hit 80-90, though....camp away.