Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

I'm not going to comment on this too much because I absolutely loathe that this is our 5,681st Marth vs Lucina discussion, but Lucina and Marth are almost as good as each other, maybe two or three spaces away at most. Lucina works just as well as Marth in matchups where you need a ranged character, because Tipper or not, she still has a giant sword with excellent frame data to smack you with. The fact that it doesn't matter where you smack your opponent with Lucina's sword as compared to Marth's doesn't mean her range advantage over other characters is suddenly invalid.

I mean, you don't hear people say Cloud is bad because he has no tipper, and while I get that Lucina is a moveset clone of Marth and Cloud isn't, the tipper argument is quite frankly ludicrous as in any matchup where you'd need a sword character, it's because of the fact that they're holding a sword and can outrange you, not because they can hit you with the tip of the sword.

 

[ARISTOS]

The bolded I can't agree with.

If there is one thing Lucina has over Marth is that her KO potential is consistent, Marth needs to get micro spacing right in a PVP situation to be able to get better KO potential which really only gets noticed more when the Marth player gets better, but still is no where near consistent as Melee or Brawl Marth in terms of how reliable he can tipper in those games.

Dipping my toes into this rabbit hole.

Marth's tipper hitboxes are pretty lenient.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sin 2-0 Dynamo at MSM tonight!

While Dynamo isn't the best player to upset, it's something, and sin is a win away from making winners quarters with Solo Puff.

Socal sure is something, huh?

Wether or not this has any bearing on Puff's tier placement is up in the air, but Sin might be the player Puff needed.

EDIT: Taternator 2-1 Tyrant at the same tournament.

keep in mind that puff is really good against sheik compared to the rest of her top 4-5 matchups.
that's the only matchup she doesn't get mutilated in.

 

[blackghost]

Since Bayo and Cloud became the highest scoring tournament characters a few months after Bayo's nerf shock wore off.

" 1JJ: FINAL LATE 2016/PHASE 3 CHARACTER SCORES
Cloud: 518.5
Bayonetta: 455.5
Diddy Kong: 433.5
Fox: 402
Sheik: 395.5
Sonic: 364.5
Mario: 322.5
Mewtwo: 243.5
Zero Suit Samus: 231
Rosalina & Luma: 212
Marth: 198
Meta Knight: 180.5
Ryu: 159
Corrin: 158.5
Mega Man: 154
Captain Falcon: 153.5
R.O.B: 143
Ness: 135.5
Greninja: 132.5
Bowser: 130
Donkey Kong: 121
Pikachu: 103
Peach: 102
Villager: 95.5
Yoshi: 89.4
Toon Link: 87
Luigi: 85
Olimar: 80.5
Wario: 81
Lucario: 77
Robin: 72.5
Little Mac: 69.5
Lucas: 69
Pit: 61
Mr. Game & Watch: 56
Charizard: 50.5
Palutena: 48
Ike: 47
Lucina: 42.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 40.5
Shulk: 40
Samus: 36
Roy: 35
Duck Hunt: 33
Link: 28.5
Pac-Man: 26
King Dedede: 23
Bowser Jr.: 19
Falco: 18.5
Kirby: 16
Jigglypuff: 6
Mii Brawler: 3
Mii Gunner: 3
Zelda: 4
Dr. Mario: 2
Dark Pit: 1.5
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Ganondorf: 0"

As far as I know these scores deal with results not usage rate. That and the fact that no one even knows when (if ever) a pocket bayo has had any meaningful results. Not Mr r, not Dabuz, not void, ect. Every bayo that places well mains her. Some have secondaries salem uses lucina and capt Zach has a small army. Bayo and a few others aren't secondary characters of choice. they are not practical as secondaries

 

[Ziodyne 21]

As far as I know these scores deal with results not usage rate. That and the fact that no one even knows when (if ever) a pocket bayo has had any meaningful results. Not Mr r, not Dabuz, not void, ect. Every bayo that places well mains her. Some have secondaries salem uses lucina and capt Zach has a small army. Bayo and a few others aren't secondary characters of choice. they are not practical as secondaries

Yea in just about every match I have seen when a top player tries to use a pocket Bayo, it does not end well.
In fact even Cloud has somewhat inconsistent results as a pocket. Recently most of Clouds success has come from being a main/co-main or secondary at the very least like with Komo and Leo Yes.. Leo uses Cloud enough that it can be considered his co-main with Marth

 

[NairWizard]

I'm not going to comment on this too much because I absolutely loathe that this is our 5,681st Marth vs Lucina discussion, but Lucina and Marth are almost as good as each other, maybe two or three spaces away at most.

People see Lucina 10+ spaces below Marth and cry foul because "they should be closer," but does anyone even bother to define what "closer" means? The character balance in this game is pretty good; the difference between a good character and a decent character isn't that large. The difference between 10th place and 15th place may indeed be just one or two matchups or a single kill confirm

And even if you don't think of tipper as an amazing mechanic, it is enough of an obfuscating factor that Lucina's matchups have to be determined separately. Marth doing well in the Mario matchup does not mean that Lucina would do just as well. That is not evidence of her ability. It is at best a platform for discussion.

Lucina advocates can't just treat Lucina as a clone of Marth and borrow his matchup ratios and tier placement when it's convenient to them and then turn around and say that Lucina isn't a clone of Marth and has her unique strengths that make her compelling to play. If she is to be treated as a unique character, her matchups have to be defined by her tournament performance. She can't "borrow" Marth's results to claim to be a better character than other characters. If Marth is better than Falcon that doesn't say anything about Lucina also being better than Falcon. At all.

Right now, she's underrepresented, but probably far below Marth going by the few results that she does have.

I mean, you don't hear people say Cloud is bad because he has no tipper

This is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard.

This is like comparing a pencil to a black hole.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not going to comment on this too much because I absolutely loathe that this is our 5,681st Marth vs Lucina discussion, but Lucina and Marth are almost as good as each other, maybe two or three spaces away at most. Lucina works just as well as Marth in matchups where you need a ranged character, because Tipper or not, she still has a giant sword with excellent frame data to smack you with. The fact that it doesn't matter where you smack your opponent with Lucina's sword as compared to Marth's doesn't mean her range advantage over other characters is suddenly invalid.

I mean, you don't hear people say Cloud is bad because he has no tipper, and while I get that Lucina is a moveset clone of Marth and Cloud isn't, the tipper argument is quite frankly ludicrous as in any matchup where you'd need a sword character, it's because of the fact that they're holding a sword and can outrange you, not because they can hit you with the tip of the sword.

This argument is literally saying 'an extra 1-3% and increased bkb/kbg for good spacing on one of the best spacing characters in the game doesn't matter'. Take Ftilt for example,
: dmg 9/12, bkb 30/55, kbg 70/85
: dmg 10.925, bkb 42, kbg 77.

Marth can kill much earlier with the extra 1.075%, 13 bkb, 8 kbg for tippers and he can combo jab into Ftilt. Marth, and therefor Lucina, was designed to be a spacing monster who is good at landing tippers since Melee. When your sword outranges 95% of the cast you don't want to hit with the hilt, tippers or not. Marth has the frame data, mobility and big arching slashes to make tippers work.

Marcina were designed to play around landing tippers, Cloud is more about abusing his mobility and limit stuff. It's two different designs. Tippers won't work for every character but we're only talking about Marcina. The sword characters outrange you because they're hitting with the tip, hitting with the hilt means you can't abuse the extra range and CQC characters with faster frame data will have the advantage at that spacing.

Lucina is a good character, not far below Marth but tl;dr Marth is better because tippers.

 

[TDK]

This is the most ridiculous comparison I've ever heard.

This is like comparing a pencil to a black hole.

My point was that Lucina is the only swordfighter in the game where people say she's bad because she doesn't have a tipper mechanic.

It sounds stupid when you compare it to other sword fighters, so why does it get a pass for Lucina? It's not like she needs to microspace the way marth does, she does a fine job without it. And while Spacing is good with Lucina too, don't get me wrong, it's not treated like a necessity for any other fighter without a tipper, and the only reason people say "Lucina is bad because she doesn't have a tipper" is because they expect her to be Marth when she's not.

The comparison was ridiculous on purpose, because saying a character that doesn't need tippers to function is bad because she doesn't have a Tipper is equally as stupid.

(Not saying Marth doesn't need tippers, Lucina doesn't need them)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Aren't we going around in circles now? See this is why discussion doesn't really help. One side argues that the difference between Marth and Lucina is tippers vs. consistency.
The reasonable people try to give good comparisons between both characters but seem to be ignored at times.
Then we have people who are on one side or the other arguing whether or not Lucina not getting results factors into her placement.
As TDK said this is the umpteenth time this has come up and what comes out of it by the time everything is said and done? Nothing.
All this is doing is delaying any productive conversation that this forum could have. It's been brought up repeatedly with no progress in sight.
I'm all for debating, it makes you think and puts the stats of the characters out there too but when the debate doesn't make any progress....is it worth it?

 

[Nah]

My point was that Lucina is the only swordfighter in the game where people say she's bad because she doesn't have a tipper mechanic.

It sounds stupid when you compare it to other sword fighters, so why does it get a pass for Lucina? It's not like she needs to microspace the way marth does, she does a fine job without it. And while Spacing is good with Lucina too, don't get me wrong, it's not treated like a necessity for any other fighter without a tipper, and the only reason people say "Lucina is bad because she doesn't have a tipper" is because they expect her to be Marth when she's not.

The comparison was ridiculous on purpose, because saying a character that doesn't need tippers to function is bad because she doesn't have a Tipper is equally as stupid.

(Not saying Marth doesn't need tippers, Lucina doesn't need them)

Last I checked no one was saying that Lucina not having tippers makes her bad. What people are saying though is that lack of tippers makes her lesser than Marth.

 

[san.]

Corrin the Ike main was in grand finals of Okasuma, a Japanese smash tournament (unsure of participant count).

san. What do you think of Corrin (the Ike main)'s play?

(man that's gonna get confusing)

I think he has very basic play (surprisingly so) with really good judgements at times with DI and mixups. It's to the point where it looks like luck, but if it keeps happening that consistently against people, it's not just that. He seems to be great at avoiding some kill setups while taking lesser punishments.

He struggles with followups and misinputs at crucial times. For instance, he almost lost in the last game since he messed up the uthrow->fair kill confirm.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

My point was that Lucina is the only swordfighter in the game where people say she's bad because she doesn't have a tipper mechanic.

It sounds stupid when you compare it to other sword fighters, so why does it get a pass for Lucina? It's not like she needs to microspace the way marth does, she does a fine job without it. And while Spacing is good with Lucina too, don't get me wrong, it's not treated like a necessity for any other fighter without a tipper, and the only reason people say "Lucina is bad because she doesn't have a tipper" is because they expect her to be Marth when she's not.

The comparison was ridiculous on purpose, because saying a character that doesn't need tippers to function is bad because she doesn't have a Tipper is equally as stupid.

(Not saying Marth doesn't need tippers, Lucina doesn't need them)

Not once has anyone here said Lucina is bad because she doesn't have tippers. Were saying Marth is better because he has tippers.
"spacing isn't treated as a necessity for any other fighter without a tipper" stop saying things for the sake of saying things. Spacing is a vital part of every characters neutral, it's just brought up often in Lucina discussion because people seem to forget that Lucina still has to space everything near the tip

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I swear, someone says Marth is better than Lucina because of tippers and another person jumps to the farthest possible conclusion and assumes that because someone said Marth is better then that means that Lucina is a hot pile of garbage.
Lucina is not a bad character, but she is not top tier.
The current meta game is focused around ledge trapping and neutral resets. Marth is better at this than Lucina, he will kill you with pokes in neutral. A Marth ftilt or nair in neutral is going to kill you if it tippers. That does not happen with Lucina. Lucina has to switch from neutral from advantage, Marth does not.

 

[Floor]

In the future, I hope the mere mention of "lucina" doesn't start world War Marcina. Instead of arguing about her and Marth and how they compare, can we just understand her as a character?

This started when I said MKLeo is a large reason for the recent favorable views of Marth and Lucina. That's basically a fact; 99% of people would agree. Then we start trashing on Lucina all of a sudden and start this thing again? Pick your battles guys. This isn't going to become a safe space where you never need to hear "lucina" again. I swear her name is triggering people and starting arguements.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Since Bayo and Cloud became the highest scoring tournament characters a few months after Bayo's nerf shock wore off.

That's cool and all but it says nothing about the frequency of Bayo as a pocket/secondary vs. a main

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/841750828092350464

2GG's really pulling out all the stops here. 9B might be the final person attending Civil War, if we get just 13 more entrants or $400 is raised.

Oh, and ZeRo made a Falco analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdsJZ0LRftM

I don't really agree with his overall sentiment, but he's the one that lived with Keitaro for a while so maybe he sees something we don't?

 

[ARGHETH]

In the future, I hope the mere mention of "lucina" doesn't start world War Marcina. Instead of arguing about her and Marth and how they compare, can we just understand her as a character?

This started when I said MKLeo is a large reason for the recent favorable views of Marth and Lucina. That's basically a fact; 99% of people would agree. Then we start trashing on Lucina all of a sudden and start this thing again? Pick your battles guys. This isn't going to become a safe space where you never need to hear "lucina" again. I swear her name is triggering people and starting arguements.

No, it started when you said Marth and Lucina are deserving of top 15 because of Leo. Kind of a big difference there. We didn't just see Lucina and start arguing about her again.

 

[Rizen]

That's cool and all but it says nothing about the frequency of Bayo as a pocket/secondary vs. a main

You can drop your main and main Bayo or second her the point is you will see a lot of them in tournaments. I think people are reading too much into my joke. I wasn't trying to diss Bayo or Cloud players. It's just one of those temptations to whip them out.

In the future, I hope the mere mention of "lucina" doesn't start world War Marcina. Instead of arguing about her and Marth and how they compare, can we just understand her as a character?

This started when I said MKLeo is a large reason for the recent favorable views of Marth and Lucina. That's basically a fact; 99% of people would agree. Then we start trashing on Lucina all of a sudden and start this thing again? Pick your battles guys. This isn't going to become a safe space where you never need to hear "lucina" again. I swear her name is triggering people and starting arguements.

We were having a good discussion :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not sure which is worse - Lucina fangrills continuing to pollute this thread or Shaya/EL overrating the living hell out of Marth/Roy dtilt since 2008 [at least].

Let's talk about how Luigi is actually high tier instead.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Not sure which is worse - Lucina fangrills continuing to pollute this thread or Shaya/EL overrating the living hell out of Marth/Roy dtilt since 2008 [at least].

Let's talk about how Luigi is actually high tier instead.

Or how because someone is getting results with jigglypuff it may have some playability despite it being on the worst tier. We have two people going into tourneys with the puff and winning before this discussion got kicked up right?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

For what its worth, Lucina does have an easier time applying pressure in some MUs because her Aerials and Tilts have more Shield push. Against a character like Mario for example, Marth will have a somewhat harder time landing since his sour Fair can be punished by Mario's Dash grab if he shield's it, whereas the pushback from Lucina's Fair makes them harder to punish. You still need to space the moves for them to be safe, but the spacing required is more lenient.

 

[Nu~]

Speaking of marcina...

 

[HoSmash4]

Not sure which is worse - Lucina fangrills continuing to pollute this thread or Shaya/EL overrating the living hell out of Marth/Roy dtilt since 2008 [at least].

Let's talk about how Luigi is actually high tier instead.

High tier being area?

For sure. What these characters have in common is a strong leading player who gets top 32 at supermajors and gets decent results at regionals. Luigi fits in for sure.

His theoretical punish game is amazing although his matchups on a more basic level are extremely hard to do..

Elegant is just godly, even getting zss-esque combos with fallingnair to uair to nair (on platform) to uair to cyclone etc. Its amazing watching him. I' wonder if he'll manage to take a set off a top player like zero,leo dabuz or nario soon.

Iirc Luigi has true combos off dthrow cyclone in certain windows as well. My source is overhearing ConCon but please correct me I may be wrong.

 

[Routa]

View attachment 127005
Speaking of marcina...

It was a meme. Nothing els.

 

[Minordeth]

Mr. R is... probably right, at this point. He is a player, as has been mentioned here, that revolves around neutral dominance and ledge trapping. Of the top Sheiks, he also struggles the most with closing out stocks. To use a (tortured) gymnastics analogy, he just struggles with sticking his landings. For him personally, he isn't rewarded enough for winning neutral. At least with Marth (probably more than Cloud), given his neutral game, he runs the chance to close out stocks much earlier.

EDIT: NM, got Lurr'd.

EDIT 2: Sheik is a better character, obvs. No FeelMeUp , I will not cash you outside.

 

[Nu~]

It was a meme. Nothing els.

Aw, I was hyped

 

[Ziodyne 21]

View attachment 127005
Speaking of marcina...

If that wasnt a joke it would be bad news for Sheik's overall results and success. Void would then be the only real top-level player that gets results with her in nationals. That is unless you count Kameme

 

[jet56]

Since we are on the subject, who really showcases and represents sheik besides void and mr. R? Honestly those two overshadow all the other sheik players. I can think of puppeh and cacogen, and kamame, dynamo, trevonte, and Saiki, but otherwise, zip. And almost none of them really do a lot on a national level.

 

[Vyrnx]

ally and nairo also DON'T have historically incredible levels of consistency--

Ally and particularly Nairo are by all accounts incredibly consistent and at the highest level. If Nairo isn't 'consistent', then nobody is other than ZeRo. He has an extremely solid track record across dozens of tournaments with one subpar result--Pound--immediately following ZSS' nerfs. If that and 17th and 13th at two of Smash 4's biggest super majors is inconsistent, then, again, the only player who would actually meet such a strict definition of 'consistency' would be ZeRo.

For some reason every top Smash player at some point gets associated with 'inconsistency'--even ZeRo earlier this year. There's a very poor perception of what top level consistency means. It doesn't mean placing top 8 at every super major, and if any metric of consistency excludes Ally and Nairo, it isn't a good metric.

 

[|RK|]

Not sure which is worse - Lucina fangrills continuing to pollute this thread or Shaya/EL overrating the living hell out of Marth/Roy dtilt since 2008 [at least].

Let's talk about how Luigi is actually high tier instead.

How reductionist.

I always like debates alongside analysis because those teach you the most. If someone can't effectively explain what they mean, what's the point?

Anyways, Weegee is a decent subject - why is he high tier?

 

[The-Technique]

Elegant is just godly, even getting zss-esque combos with fallingnair to uair to nair (on platform) to uair to cyclone etc. Its amazing watching him. I' wonder if he'll manage to take a set off a top player like zero,leo dabuz or nario soon.

I think he'll take a set from them soon, he came very close to beating Leo.

 

[Shaya]

Not sure which is worse - Lucina fangrills continuing to pollute this thread or Shaya/EL overrating the living hell out of Marth/Roy dtilt since 2008 [at least].

Let's talk about how Luigi is actually high tier instead.

Imagine if Luigi had Marth's down tilt. But yeah, Luigi could probably still be high tier.
Roy's down tilt isn't that good... in this game. It's flat to the ground, shorter range than the sword, minimal damage at the tip so it's a lot weaker for curtailing people's movements. The angle/kb also isn't grand on hit either (if he got consistent DED or close range tech chases, sure [the latter would be super hype]).
They really should've given Roy that 1.5 units Marth got, then he'd be ****ing fantastic.

But I'm pretty sure as a Mikeneko fan you would know down tilt is pretty good LOL, he used that move VERY well.
And to semi-respond to EL here, but MK's ftilt for the most part supplanted dtilt's uses - but MK's ftilt was better than most of the brawl cast by itself so, /shrug.

Seems like every argument made for what makes Marth a stronger character gets responded with "that's not fair" so her arguers don't have to accept the very rational deductions made (modern world, FAKE NEWS, wew).
Like, for real? Of course it isn't fair, Marth is a higher tuned (tippers with bigger growths, ratio of tipper/flub on most moves being very lenient), more option rich (purposeful use of sweet or sour spots, jab set ups EXTREMELY favour him) character. The argument will never be fair - the only alternative is proof of similar match up potency (+consistency) at higher levels - 2.5 years into the game and this has never happened.

There are some definite positives to Lucina, but their relevancy is just theory. Not good theory that's based off objective game data, just theory. Sliding from a walk is pretty hype, power shield fsmash punishes is pretty hype, killing a Cloud in friendlies with up tilt at 110% anecdotally isn't hype but you can pretend it is - much to my and I'm sure many others amusement. "But this one time this Marth didn't space properly when I was playing against him on wifi and he didn't kill me, check mate atheists, we're gonna bring the Marth Illuminati down!!!!"

 

[Yonder]

Since we are on the subject, who really showcases and represents sheik besides void and mr. R? Honestly those two overshadow all the other sheik players. I can think of puppeh and cacogen, and kamame, dynamo, trevonte, and Saiki, but otherwise, zip. And almost none of them really do a lot on a national level.

Obvious, but Zero and his Sheik. Definitely pulls it out for specific matchups, like Luigi, probably would for Olimar too since he believes Olimar beats Diddy. Not like his Sheik has honestly never done well when used either. This character is not falling out of the top 5 in this games lifespan with a neutral, frame data, and recovery like that.

 

[Das Koopa]

Here's the OrionRank variant of Civil War attendees

Spoiler: OrionRank 2016 Attendees

1: TSM | ZeRo
2: C9 | Ally
3: ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo
4: NRG | Nairo
5: MSF | Larry Lurr
6: LG | Abadango
7: eLv | Mr. R
8: MVG | Salem
9: CLG | VoiD
10: RNG | Dabuz
11: IMT | ANTi
12: 2GG | komorikiri
13: AS | Zinoto
14: DNG | Kameme
15: DNL | Marss
16: PG | ESAM
17: Tyrant
18: P1 | Tweek
19: ECHO FOX MVG | Mew2King
20: Trela
21: Ranai
23: Nietono
24: Earth
25: RvL | Mr. E
26: K9sbruce
27: Captain Zack
28: PG | Rich Brown
29: Samsora
30: VGBC | Pink Fresh
32: FS | Fatality
33: Circa | 6WX
34: LooK | falln
36: Elegant
37: Dath
38: Shuton
39: eLv | False
40: Noble | Ryo
41: FS | Wrath
43: MVG | dyr
44: SHIG | 9B
46: MVG | ScAtt
47: InC | WaDi
48: iStudying
49: Glutonny
50: saj
51: PG | MVD
52: Yatta Gaming | JK
53: Vinnie
54: E2C | DarkShad
55: G-FORCE Oni | Day
56: Ryuga
58: JJROCKETS
59: Ned
62: E2C | tyroy
67: Pugwest
68: tsu (lmao he's already passed his 2016 score if the grading remains even remotely similar)
70: SHBOYS DosGG | Angel Cortes
73: Aarvark
74: LH | Charliedaking
75: RvL | Xzax
82: UBCEA | Locus
87: CLG | NAKAT
88: FOW
91: FAD | 2scoops Nicko
94: ImHip
98: Fable | 8BitMan
102: HIKARU
103: Fuwa
106: DKwill
108: Mr. ConCon
109: PG FAD | Zan
119: FS | Dark Wizzy
125: EZG | Remzi
132: TLTC
137: TTN | Karna
142: SCB | ViceGrip
145: Sonido
153: Jtails
158: 2S | Scizor
162: LooK | Ac
168: SUGOI | ven
170: RF7 | Z


Hidden Bosses/NED:
Kome
Kirihara
HY | Javi
Shaky

A mystery attendee will get added at 650 entrants. 2GG asked who people would like on Reddit and a few people suggested were OrionRank attendees. I suggested Tea tho

 

[verbatim]

A mystery attendee will get added at 650 entrants. 2GG asked who people would like on Reddit and a few people suggested were OrionRank attendees. I suggested Tea tho

Has he suggested that he'd be willing to attend? IIC his last big tournament showing was in July.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Imagine if Luigi had Marth's down tilt. But yeah, Luigi could probably still be high tier.
Roy's down tilt isn't that good... in this game. It's flat to the ground, shorter range than the sword, minimal damage at the tip so it's a lot weaker for curtailing people's movements. The angle/kb also isn't grand on hit either (if he got consistent DED or close range tech chases, sure [the latter would be super hype]).
They really should've given Roy that 1.5 units Marth got, then he'd be ****ing fantastic.

But I'm pretty sure as a Mikeneko fan you would know down tilt is pretty good LOL, he used that move VERY well.
And to semi-respond to EL here, but MK's ftilt for the most part supplanted dtilt's uses - but MK's ftilt was better than most of the brawl cast by itself so, /shrug.

Seems like every argument made for what makes Marth a stronger character gets responded with "that's not fair" so her arguers don't have to accept the very rational deductions made (modern world, FAKE NEWS, wew).
Like, for real? Of course it isn't fair, Marth is a higher tuned (tippers with bigger growths, ratio of tipper/flub on most moves being very lenient), more option rich (purposeful use of sweet or sour spots, jab set ups EXTREMELY favour him) character. The argument will never be fair - the only alternative is proof of similar match up potency (+consistency) at higher levels - 2.5 years into the game and this has never happened.

There are some definite positives to Lucina, but their relevancy is just theory. Not good theory that's based off objective game data, just theory. Sliding from a walk is pretty hype, power shield fsmash punishes is pretty hype, killing a Cloud in friendlies with up tilt at 110% anecdotally isn't hype but you can pretend it is - much to my and I'm sure many others amusement. "But this one time this Marth didn't space properly when I was playing against him on wifi and he didn't kill me, check mate atheists, we're gonna bring the Marth Illuminati down!!!!"

And those last couple of paragraphs right there is the reason both me and L999 didn't want this discussion.

People want a proper debate with game theory, frame rates, etc.

However, arguments with no real value besides theorycraft pop up and it goes from a debate into a whiny argument. Both me and L999 saw THAT one coming from a mile away.

tbh I'm glad we're getting away from that subject, and wow Civil War is going to be huge with that many people! Sounds like fun!

 

[TDK]

Here's the OrionRank variant of Civil War attendees

Spoiler: OrionRank 2016 Attendees

1: TSM | ZeRo
2: C9 | Ally
3: ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo
4: NRG | Nairo
5: MSF | Larry Lurr
6: LG | Abadango
7: eLv | Mr. R
8: MVG | Salem
9: CLG | VoiD
10: RNG | Dabuz
11: IMT | ANTi
12: 2GG | komorikiri
13: AS | Zinoto
14: DNG | Kameme
15: DNL | Marss
16: PG | ESAM
17: Tyrant
18: P1 | Tweek
19: ECHO FOX MVG | Mew2King
20: Trela
21: Ranai
23: Nietono
24: Earth
25: RvL | Mr. E
26: K9sbruce
27: Captain Zack
28: PG | Rich Brown
29: Samsora
30: VGBC | Pink Fresh
32: FS | Fatality
33: Circa | 6WX
34: LooK | falln
36: Elegant
37: Dath
38: Shuton
39: eLv | False
40: Noble | Ryo
41: FS | Wrath
43: MVG | dyr
44: SHIG | 9B
46: MVG | ScAtt
47: InC | WaDi
48: iStudying
49: Glutonny
50: saj
51: PG | MVD
52: Yatta Gaming | JK
53: Vinnie
54: E2C | DarkShad
55: G-FORCE Oni | Day
56: Ryuga
58: JJROCKETS
59: Ned
62: E2C | tyroy
67: Pugwest
68: tsu (lmao he's already passed his 2016 score if the grading remains even remotely similar)
70: SHBOYS DosGG | Angel Cortes
73: Aarvark
74: LH | Charliedaking
75: RvL | Xzax
82: UBCEA | Locus
87: CLG | NAKAT
88: FOW
91: FAD | 2scoops Nicko
94: ImHip
98: Fable | 8BitMan
102: HIKARU
103: Fuwa
106: DKwill
108: Mr. ConCon
109: PG FAD | Zan
119: FS | Dark Wizzy
125: EZG | Remzi
132: TLTC
137: TTN | Karna
142: SCB | ViceGrip
145: Sonido
153: Jtails
158: 2S | Scizor
162: LooK | Ac
168: SUGOI | ven
170: RF7 | Z


Hidden Bosses/NED:
Kome
Kirihara
HY | Javi
Shaky

A mystery attendee will get added at 650 entrants. 2GG asked who people would like on Reddit and a few people suggested were OrionRank attendees. I suggested Tea tho

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/841750828092350464

2GG's really pulling out all the stops here. 9B might be the final person attending Civil War, if we get just 13 more entrants or $400 is raised.

Oh, and ZeRo made a Falco analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdsJZ0LRftM

I don't really agree with his overall sentiment, but he's the one that lived with Keitaro for a while so maybe he sees something we don't?

 

[Floor]

Oh boy not only are we character bashing, we're also player bashing. Amazing.

Also Im glad Frame Perfect is this weekend. I cant wait a single more week for civil war

 

[|RK|]

I'm interested in doubles for the first time, tbh. I'm curious to see if Lucario and Diddy are going to be a top team.

 

[freeziebeatz]

Here's the OrionRank variant of Civil War attendees

Spoiler: OrionRank 2016 Attendees

1: TSM | ZeRo
2: C9 | Ally
3: ECHO FOX MVG | MKLeo
4: NRG | Nairo
5: MSF | Larry Lurr
6: LG | Abadango
7: eLv | Mr. R
8: MVG | Salem
9: CLG | VoiD
10: RNG | Dabuz
11: IMT | ANTi
12: 2GG | komorikiri
13: AS | Zinoto
14: DNG | Kameme
15: DNL | Marss
16: PG | ESAM
17: Tyrant
18: P1 | Tweek
19: ECHO FOX MVG | Mew2King
20: Trela
21: Ranai
23: Nietono
24: Earth
25: RvL | Mr. E
26: K9sbruce
27: Captain Zack
28: PG | Rich Brown
29: Samsora
30: VGBC | Pink Fresh
32: FS | Fatality
33: Circa | 6WX
34: LooK | falln
36: Elegant
37: Dath
38: Shuton
39: eLv | False
40: Noble | Ryo
41: FS | Wrath
43: MVG | dyr
44: SHIG | 9B
46: MVG | ScAtt
47: InC | WaDi
48: iStudying
49: Glutonny
50: saj
51: PG | MVD
52: Yatta Gaming | JK
53: Vinnie
54: E2C | DarkShad
55: G-FORCE Oni | Day
56: Ryuga
58: JJROCKETS
59: Ned
62: E2C | tyroy
67: Pugwest
68: tsu (lmao he's already passed his 2016 score if the grading remains even remotely similar)
70: SHBOYS DosGG | Angel Cortes
73: Aarvark
74: LH | Charliedaking
75: RvL | Xzax
82: UBCEA | Locus
87: CLG | NAKAT
88: FOW
91: FAD | 2scoops Nicko
94: ImHip
98: Fable | 8BitMan
102: HIKARU
103: Fuwa
106: DKwill
108: Mr. ConCon
109: PG FAD | Zan
119: FS | Dark Wizzy
125: EZG | Remzi
132: TLTC
137: TTN | Karna
142: SCB | ViceGrip
145: Sonido
153: Jtails
158: 2S | Scizor
162: LooK | Ac
168: SUGOI | ven
170: RF7 | Z


Hidden Bosses/NED:
Kome
Kirihara
HY | Javi
Shaky

Spoiler: OrionRank Not Going

22: KEN
31: Ito
35: Manny
42: Taiheita
45: RAIN (In Voting)
57: Zenyou
60: ikep
61: Elexiao (In Voting)
63: Venom (In Voting)
64: Ri-ma
65: SS
66: Ixis
69: S1
71: SlayerZ
72: Cosmos
76: Saiki
77: Sodrek
78: SuperGirlKels
79: Seagull Joe (In Voting)
80: IcyMist
81: Ksev
83: cyve
84: Myran
85: San
86: Frozen (In Voting but Can't Go)
89: Xaltis
90: Kie
92: Rayquaza07
93: Holy
95: Riot
96: DJ Jack
97: Prince Ramen
99: Some
100: TheReflexWonder

To add on to this, here are the OrionRank members not going.

Also all the Vote-ins for next round after 9B

Spoiler: Vote Ins

East Coast
- Venia
- Frozen (Can't Go)
- Seagull Joe
- John Numbers

Japan
- T
- Tea
- Ron
- RAIN

International
- Elexiao
- M
- Sharpy
- Venom