Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Heracr055]

I personally feel that the Pits are a better fundamental character to start with. You get a decent projectile, good ground speed, a combo starting throw, a kill throw at high %/at the ledge, forgiving multihit-aerials, an excellent dash attack, far reaching recovery, and quick Smash attacks. They are an excellent first step in learning how to play neutral. I say this as a person whose first serious main was Dark Pit, and got a great idea of how to play the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

This discussion reminded me: I might have mentioned this previously, but I'm convinced that Doc is definitively the best introductory training character in the game.

Most characters encourage the player to spend a disproportionate amount of time mastering either highly specific combos or highly specialized neutral tools. New players find themselves rewarded for focusing on developing these character-specific traits rather than fundamentals, but this slows long-term growth and has very low payoff when they realize who they actually want to main and jump ship.

Doc doesn't have Bananas or Limit, his universe doesn't revolve around specific ladder combos, he doesn't have a tether grab or Street Fighter controls, and he (ironically) doesn't require a PhD in Monodo Engineering or Fruit Sciences. Doc has no special sauce; even his d-throw combos are (in my experience) far more generic and less rout than plumber Mario's.


Additionally, due to the nature of the neutral, I think it's harder for a newer player to transition from:

• Long-range to low-range
• High-mobility to low-mobility

Contrast with attack (startup) speed and attack strength, which I feel players can quickly adapt to negative changes in when moving between characters.

The difference is that range and mobility dictate what situations you try to put yourself in, while startup speed and damage merely determine what you do (and your reward) once you get there. It's harder to learn the former, and the crutch of having a broad advantage in range or mobility allows some glossing over of that.

Doc is a very polarized character; he put all his stat points in attack startup and damage. His range and mobility are generally poor, while his moveset-wide damage-per-startup-frame and knockback-per-startup-frame is the best in the entire cast.


But wait, there's more! Here is a list of 12 specific skills newer players ought to be devoting specific attention to, all of which Doc emphasizes to a significant degree:

• Grabbing, especially out of Shield
  • Doc has a decent, non-tether grab with consistently great reward opportunities at all %s, yet grabs aren't free nor does his game revolve exclusively around them.
• Being hyper-conscious of aerial facing direction (inc. the difference between fair/bair)
  • Doc fair and bair could not be more different, and bair is the one you want to spam.
• Reversal Aerial Rush (reversing facing direction before jumping, usually so as to approach with bairs)
  • Throwing out safe SH bairs is one of Doc's bread-n-butters.
• Shorthopping
  • In addition to the frequent SH bairs, SH cape is a uniquely valuable tool.
• U-smash out of shield or dash/run
  • If Doc could be accused of having too much emphasis on one broken move, it'd be U-smash; but this is for the best! New players need to understand that U-smash is not just another move in Smash ASAP.
• U-special out of shield or dash/run
  • Just like U-smash, his overemphasis on the move means that learning Doc forces an understanding of when U-special is a legal and viable option.
• Deliberate use of low-startup moves as combo-breakers
  • Nair and up-b are both f3, so this is about as encouraged as it gets.
• Using projectiles to space and/or approach
  • Pills are the perfect training projectile; done in the air, used for both spacing and approach, can be reversed, punishable if overused.
• Air Dodge Punishing
  • Doc's fair and U-smash are unusually devastating payoffs for reading an air dodge.
• The value of recovering low
  • You need to learn to recover low before high, and Doc has a heavy bias in favor of this.
• Ledge Options, especially stand or jump
  • Doc has minimal gimmicks at the ledge, and has to learn the generic options well--but his use of those options isn't bad.
• Punishing Ledge Options, especially roll or attack
  • Doc is also "honest" when defending the stage, with U-smash as a trump card that devastates rolls.

(There are some additional skills that are just as important, but imo vary too much across the cast for any one character to claim to develop in such a universal fashion. This includes recovering high, saving KO moves, throw selection, and using tilts.)


What about standard Mario? Mario has a top 10 air-speed, more specific (and long) d-throw chains to memorize, does unusual counter-spacing with FLUDD, and uses dair in a unique way thanks to the landing hitbox; all of this make Mario more distinctly "Mario" and less of a universal character than Doc, who could be uncharitably described as generic Mario who hits harder.

Bottom line is, if you ask me, no one teaches better habits than Doc.

Interesting post, I had actually did the same thing to myself, but with Pit.

When I first decided I wanted to play this game seriously, I immediately and over-eagerly dived right into greninja. But greninja is pretty technical, his mobility feels like driving a Ferrari after being a Volkswagen owner, and the nature of his play was radically different.

I ended up playing Pit at my first tournament because. His base kit was simple to understand, I was able to learn and understand things like footsies. I then gradually played Greninja more, occasionally going back to Pit as a comfort pick. I guess the moral of this story is that learning how to play the game and play the character at the same time can be a recipe for frustration and disaster.

And now Greninja is my comfort pick, and my main pick. And my only pick. Man, I love Greninjuh ◥θ┴θ◤

 

[Rizen]

Doc / Mario is a very similar case to the CF / Ganon case. Whilst CF and Ganon have similar moves, some with similar uses, Doc and Mario have similar moves, but very different uses.

Ganon and CF only have a few similar moves; most have significant differences. Jab:CF's is one of the best, fast and goes into a jab combo, Ganon's is a 1 hit slow 'Tilt' jab. FTilt: CF's can be angled and Ganon's is a stronger jab. Utilt: CF's has uses, lol. Dtilt sort of like Ftilt, CF's hits low, Ganon's hits high and is basically the animation of Ftilt. Usmash: CF's 2 hits and slides, Ganon's hits once and is very safe on shield. Dsmash: Ganon's 2 hits and launches behind him, CF's hits once. Fair:CF has knee, Ganon has an aerial Fsmash essentially with completely different animations. Uair: Ganon's launches and has no combo potential. SideB: Ganon's is a command grab mixup to tech chase, CF's is more of a punisher/finisher. Down B: Ganon's eats low damage projectiles as a neutral burst. UpB: similar but different angles, Ganon's moves up and less forward and punches through the stage at the end.

Bair, Nair, neutral B, DA and Dair function the same with the same purposes.
Edit, can CF combo out of DA or am I thinking of Samus? Ganon can jump>Dair auto cancel in neutral, IDK if CF can.

 

[Galgatha]

I would love to discuss Falco, and any possibility of him moving up in the meta.

I am currently looking towards local tournaments to get my feet wet. Has there been any Falco play in majors? Don't really keep a watch on those type of things as I am rather busy in my day to day.

 

[Thinkaman]

I personally feel that the Pits are a better fundamental character to start with. You get a decent projectile, good ground speed, a combo starting throw, a kill throw at high %/at the ledge, forgiving multihit-aerials, an excellent dash attack, far reaching recovery, and quick Smash attacks. They are an excellent first step in learning how to play neutral. I say this as a person whose first serious main was Dark Pit, and got a great idea of how to play the game.

I do think the runner-up is between Pit/Dark Pit and standard Mario, with no one else in contention. (Who else would it be? G&W? Mii Brawler? Diddy without Bananas?)

So, with the disclaimer that I think Pit is a top 3 training character (top 95% of the cast!), let me list why I think Doc still has a clear edge:

• Pit has unique mobility: Very low air-speed and multiple jumps.
  • New players need to clearly grasp the value of drifting, and the steep cost of spending their precious double jump.
• Pit's projectile is not an approach tool.
  • Projectiles vary a lot, but Doc's is more similar to more others, by applying to more use cases.
• An excellent dash attack is a bad thing, a bad habit virtually all new players share.
  • It would actually be better for training if Doc's dash attack was terrible!
• Pit's smash attacks are actually rather unusual (fastest-in-game overall!); we need to show new players the utility of U-smashing, but we don't want them getting used to Pit's rather unique F-smash and D-smash frame data.
  • Better to train them on Doc's extra-punishing hard-read smashes, which opens a bridge to all other characters that depend on hard reads.
• Pit's d-throw combos are kind of rout and by the book.
  • Doc's vary more based on opponent weight and exist at broader %s. Throw-to-aerial is a more universally followed paradigm than throw-to-Usmash.
• Pit doesn't punish air dodge reads nearly as harshly as Doc.
  • In fact, most of Pit's long-duration, high-range aerials reward conservative play over the precise reads that Doc fair demands.
• Pit's fair and bair are not as distinct/different as Doc's.
• A new player can get away with using Pit's fair in more situations where they should be learning to use bair
• Pit's can turn around in the air, thanks to multiple double jumps allowing this
  • I can't emphasize this topic enough. Aerial facing is the single thing that experienced players take for granted and overlook, that new players just don't see. Simply knowing that fair and bair are different aren't enough, they have to fully internalize it and become used to making decisions about future aerial moves at the time of jump.

Ultimately, I think Doc's pills, bair pressure, and having enough air-speed to cross up shields is a neutral game that applies to the rest of the roster far more directly than Pit's. I'm not dismissing any of Pit's strengths, but Doc is right on the money in terms of key lessons emphasized for the new player.

 

[MistressRemilia]

This discussion reminded me: I might have mentioned this previously, but I'm convinced that Doc is definitively the best introductory training character in the game.

Most characters encourage the player to spend a disproportionate amount of time mastering either highly specific combos or highly specialized neutral tools. New players find themselves rewarded for focusing on developing these character-specific traits rather than fundamentals, but this slows long-term growth and has very low payoff when they realize who they actually want to main and jump ship.

Doc doesn't have Bananas or Limit, his universe doesn't revolve around specific ladder combos, he doesn't have a tether grab or Street Fighter controls, and he (ironically) doesn't require a PhD in Monodo Engineering or Fruit Sciences. Doc has no special sauce; even his d-throw combos are (in my experience) far more generic and less rout than plumber Mario's.


Additionally, due to the nature of the neutral, I think it's harder for a newer player to transition from:

• Long-range to low-range
• High-mobility to low-mobility

Contrast with attack (startup) speed and attack strength, which I feel players can quickly adapt to negative changes in when moving between characters.

The difference is that range and mobility dictate what situations you try to put yourself in, while startup speed and damage merely determine what you do (and your reward) once you get there. It's harder to learn the former, and the crutch of having a broad advantage in range or mobility allows some glossing over of that.

Doc is a very polarized character; he put all his stat points in attack startup and damage. His range and mobility are generally poor, while his moveset-wide damage-per-startup-frame and knockback-per-startup-frame is the best in the entire cast.


But wait, there's more! Here is a list of 12 specific skills newer players ought to be devoting specific attention to, all of which Doc emphasizes to a significant degree:

• Grabbing, especially out of Shield
  • Doc has a decent, non-tether grab with consistently great reward opportunities at all %s, yet grabs aren't free nor does his game revolve exclusively around them.
• Being hyper-conscious of aerial facing direction (inc. the difference between fair/bair)
  • Doc fair and bair could not be more different, and bair is the one you want to spam.
• Reversal Aerial Rush (reversing facing direction before jumping, usually so as to approach with bairs)
  • Throwing out safe SH bairs is one of Doc's bread-n-butters.
• Shorthopping
  • In addition to the frequent SH bairs, SH cape is a uniquely valuable tool.
• U-smash out of shield or dash/run
  • If Doc could be accused of having too much emphasis on one broken move, it'd be U-smash; but this is for the best! New players need to understand that U-smash is not just another move in Smash ASAP.
• U-special out of shield or dash/run
  • Just like U-smash, his overemphasis on the move means that learning Doc forces an understanding of when U-special is a legal and viable option.
• Deliberate use of low-startup moves as combo-breakers
  • Nair and up-b are both f3, so this is about as encouraged as it gets.
• Using projectiles to space and/or approach
  • Pills are the perfect training projectile; done in the air, used for both spacing and approach, can be reversed, punishable if overused.
• Air Dodge Punishing
  • Doc's fair and U-smash are unusually devastating payoffs for reading an air dodge.
• The value of recovering low
  • You need to learn to recover low before high, and Doc has a heavy bias in favor of this.
• Ledge Options, especially stand or jump
  • Doc has minimal gimmicks at the ledge, and has to learn the generic options well--but his use of those options isn't bad.
• Punishing Ledge Options, especially roll or attack
  • Doc is also "honest" when defending the stage, with U-smash as a trump card that devastates rolls.

(There are some additional skills that are just as important, but imo vary too much across the cast for any one character to claim to develop in such a universal fashion. This includes recovering high, saving KO moves, throw selection, and using tilts.)


What about standard Mario? Mario has a top 10 air-speed, more specific (and long) d-throw chains to memorize, does unusual counter-spacing with FLUDD, and uses dair in a unique way thanks to the landing hitbox; all of this make Mario more distinctly "Mario" and less of a universal character than Doc, who could be uncharitably described as generic Mario who hits harder.

Bottom line is, if you ask me, no one teaches better habits than Doc.

I'd agree with most of what you're saying, and i would like to add on that if, even if you end up dropping Doc in the hands, the skills you develop in order to get a legitimately good Doc are also extremely valuable for the rest of the cast: Doc's mixups & less efficient/consistent tools break the flow of Doc's fairly straight-forward kit, but can surely bring rewarding & satisfying results to the table if used at the right time, and with that, you gain awareness of the kind of situations when it may be wise to mix it up, to possibly greater success. This would be Doc's Tornado in a nutshell: At fairly early %, if you can sneak in this commital option as a landing mixup, after a rightful airdodge, or anywhere with in mind the fact that you believe it will hit, it will result more often than enough in your opponent getting close to the ledge, a situation Doc can punish fairly well. However, choose to use tornado at the wrong time, and your opponent could punish you quite roughly for doing so.
Another good & necessary mixup to the slow moving doctor: Short Hop Airdodges. They're unsafe on shield, yes. But against the sword characters who will be focusing on keepaway, while it may not work all the time because of they're long lasting disjoints ( not all the time ) , the reward coming from sneaking in a SH AD Nair or Reverse UpB ( especially good on triplats ) will be seen at all%, as UpB's knockback & Nair's combo potential will be there to satisfy you.

Overall, the feeling of satisfaction from a curious Doc player who's been trying to discover more options to throw off the opponent will push his will to make something out of most if not all moves in a character's kit, and to an extent, push his understanding of the game & in-game awareness. Once again, very healthy habit ( Not to overdo though, i must say )

P.S: On a fundamental level, Doc's combo game is indeed fairly straight forward, and you did mention the airdodges punishes, which is a huge part of the more specific part of Doc's combo game, centered around abusing your framedata as a means to frametrap the opponent. Some of Doc's better combos are actually somewhat frame-tight as well

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Basically what you're describing here is "respecting" something, and that really leans more towards not playing with your emotions/being calm rather than playing with a mix of emotional/not emotional. Not thinking is not thinking and happens regardless of one's emotional state. Getting emotional tends to cause bad plays or sour discussions. Being calm never really does.

I was a bit vague and I did think I was describing "respect" when I posted but I still do think your emotions can play a positive part as well as a negative part for a player. Bringing positive feelings into a set will affect the way you preform. Feeling good about yourself might give you the bravado to go for a read that might had made the difference in you winning that set that you normally never bother with while on the opposite end feeling bad about yourself going into a set can lead to irrational and bad decisions like you said. Not saying you but people often forget the human element when it comes competitive video games or only focus on the negative part of it. If you don't bring the right attitude into a set it can cost you.

I'm just rambling here but basically don't neglect the power of a positive mentality is what I'm getting at.

I would love to discuss Falco, and any possibility of him moving up in the meta.

I am currently looking towards local tournaments to get my feet wet. Has there been any Falco play in majors? Don't really keep a watch on those type of things as I am rather busy in my day to day.

Sadly Smash 4 was never kind to the bird and aside from a few placings by AC. Falco hasn't done anything on a national level that would advance his meta. Don't let that discourage you can do fine with almost anyone at a local level (well depending on which local scene your at, it would be quite difficult to achieve success with Puff in SoCal for example) but Falco just isn't what he used to be which is a shame because I used him often in previous Smash games and I still attempt to from time to time now.

 

[Galgatha]

Sadly Smash 4 was never kind to the bird and aside from a few placings by AC. Falco hasn't done anything on a national level that would advance his meta. Don't let that discourage you can do fine with almost anyone at a local level (well depending on which local scene your at, it would be quite difficult to achieve success with Puff in SoCal for example) but Falco just isn't what he used to be which is a shame because I used him often in previous Smash games and I still attempt to from time to time now.

Falco is not that bad. Yeah, he is no longer the god he was back in Brawl with the insta dair and chain grab but, IMO he has a better fair and still a decent amount of tool if you utilize them correctly.

With the ability to still do stuff out of phantom, falco has the ability to be rediculous with edge guarding and ganking.

Phantom off stage towards enemy, attack, jump, phantom back towards stage, and firebird to finish getting back. I haven't seen this used in tourneys due to laser being much safer with edgeguarding, but it is a possibility and one that not alot of people would be prepared for.

 

[Rizen]

Falco is not that bad. Yeah, he is no longer the god he was back in Brawl with the insta dair and chain grab but, IMO he has a better fair and still a decent amount of tool if you utilize them correctly.

With the ability to still do stuff out of phantom, falco has the ability to be rediculous with edge guarding and ganking.

Phantom off stage towards enemy, attack, jump, phantom back towards stage, and firebird to finish getting back. I haven't seen this used in tourneys due to laser being much safer with edgeguarding, but it is a possibility and one that not alot of people would be prepared for.

"Ganking", what is this Dark Souls? I agree Falco's edge guarding is good.

 

[Trunks159]

Phantom off stage towards enemy, attack, jump, phantom back towards stage, and firebird to finish getting back. I haven't seen this used in tourneys due to laser being much safer with edgeguarding, but it is a possibility and one that not alot of people would be prepared for.

Come on, you can't possibly believe this is going to work.

 

[Rizen]

Come on, you can't possibly believe this is going to work.

IDK about Falco but as Ganon I'll wizkick offstage>Uair to intercept so it's believable.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Falco lacks overall mobility and safety, can't truly approach and most of his combos aren't very consistent.
Sure, he has some good tools and is probably not a horrible character, but then again, about 80% of the cast is usable at high level (number is about 85% if Miis are allowed to have their whole movesets).
We've used this phrase so much but it has never been not true: Falco is low tier not because he is useless, but because someone has to be, and his flaws are (slightly) more hindering than others'.

 

[Rizen]

Falco lacks overall mobility and safety, can't truly approach and most of his combos aren't very consistent.
Sure, he has some good tools and is probably not a horrible character, but then again, about 80% of the cast is usable at high level (number is about 85% if Miis are allowed to have their whole movesets).
We've used this phrase so much but it has never been not true: Falco is low tier not because he is useless, but because someone has to be, and his flaws are (slightly) more hindering than others'.

Falco's a low tier no doubt. I'm only saying he has good edge guarding. Fair semi-spikes and his high jump and fast fall speed creates a wall between you and the stage. Kirby has similar physics to his edge guarding walls.
/clarifying my view

 

[Trifroze]

Bair, Nair, neutral B, DA and Dair function the same with the same purposes.
Edit, can CF combo out of DA or am I thinking of Samus? Ganon can jump>Dair auto cancel in neutral, IDK if CF can.

Yeah he can, both late and early except against floaties.

Also u wot m8 at nair having the same purpose between Falcon and Ganon? Ganondorf's is essentially a lingering wall that kills, Falcon's is a horizontal comboer with hit 1 being safe on landing and comboing into stuff.

 

[TDK]

HIDE 2-0 Earth
Lagnel 2-0 9B

God I love Japan

 

[Das Koopa]

stuff I'm using this weekend (add on if you're aware of notables)

Smash & Splash 3
Battle of BC 2
SALT: Salty Arena Legendary Tournament
Hirosuma 6
Congrats Again: Another Florida Regional
Battlegrounds 4
Gambit: June

none will be listed as majors due to similar skill pool circumstances as Royal Flush/Dreamhack Austin/KTAR XX where a significant skill dropoff occurs after top 8/12

 

[Nobie]

The other day, Earth mentioned on Twitter that he's never ever been able to beat Songn, not in friendlies and not in tournament.

Food for thought?

 

[ARGHETH]

The other day, Earth mentioned on Twitter that he's never ever been able to beat Songn, not in friendlies and not in tournament.

Food for thought?

Songn might just generally do well against swordies, considering his recent-ish wins over Rain and Leo.
He has lost to Kuro, which makes this especially odd. That was a while ago, though (Umebura 25), so maybe something's changed.

 

[TDK]

Hirosuma 6 (132 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Shuton
2nd: Ranai
3rd: 9B
4th: Chanshu
5th: Songn
5th: Lagnel
7th: Earth
7th: HIDE

 

[The-Technique]

Void 2-0'd by Linden, a Samus. Hot damn.

Samus in general has been looking real strong this year thanks to players like ESAM and Icymist, a far cry from when she was widely considered a low tier.

 

[Yikarur]

She's really doing good in Europe as well, with Afrosmash, zyclone and Zwirrklop doing really well.

 

[NairWizard]

Samus has a frame-4 jumpsquat, one of the hallmarks of a top tier in this game.

She would be my choice for "hidden top 10-15 character" left in the cast.

 

[Illusion.]

Battlegrounds 4 (119 entrants, Houston, TX)

1st. SWG | Lima
2nd. HY 6S | Javi
3rd. AC
4th. Shadow_PR
5th. Dath
5th. Twi
7th. GrimTurtle
7th. DJ Fliphop

 

[|RK|]

Samus has a frame-4 jumpsquat, one of the hallmarks of a top tier in this game.

She would be my choice for "hidden top 10-15 character" left in the cast.

Mario, Rosa, Marcina, and Mewtwo have frame 5 jumpsquats

That said, I'm not sure I see Samus any higher than... well, high tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Shortly after I make the post about VoiD getting bodied because he plays too passively he ends up losing to 3 characters that do significantly worse against aggro Sheik(). Unfortunate.

Battlegrounds 4 (119 entrants, Houston, TX)

1st. SWG | Lima
2nd. HY 6S | Javi
3rd. AC
4th. Shadow_PR
5th. Dath
5th. Twi
7th. GrimTurtle
7th. DJ Fliphop

I wanted to attend so badly but had a graduation event less than 10 minutes away : (((

 

[Deleted member]

Samus has a pretty solid toolkit overall. I can see her being lower part of mid tier or at worst one of the best low tiers. The biggest holes in her design are her awful grab and roll, along with not having a functioning jab combo. Missiles are pretty sucky as well but zair and Charge Shot are both potent conditioning/zoning tools in of themselves. If those areas about her along with were improved she would be worlds better.

 

[NairWizard]

Mario, Rosa, Marcina, and Mewtwo have frame 5 jumpsquats

That said, I'm not sure I see Samus any higher than... well, high tier.

yeah, you're right on those characters. I always think that Mario has a f4 jumpsquat for some reason.

Samus is extremely good, either way. Mid tier or low tier just doesn't seem suitable, but she doesn't have the results quite yet to justify that kind of claim. I predict it, though, especially if Salem uses her more. He seems to be the best Samus right now, but doesn't use her that often.

 

[Rizen]

I wouldn't go as far as high tier but Samus is better than Link after her much needed buffs. She's lower mid-mid mid tier imo.


(Why is my signature broken?)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

(Why is my signature broken?)

Same thing happens to my sig too, at first I thought it might have to do with signature size but with a sig as short as mine that might not be the case.

Does anyone have a list of everyone's jump squats in order from fastest to slowest?

 

[Rizen]

Same thing happens to my sig too, at first I thought it might have to do with signature size but with a sig as short as mine that might not be the case.

Does anyone have a list of everyone's jump squats in order from fastest to slowest?

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Jumpsquat

 

[NairWizard]

Samus doesn't really categorically lose matchups so I don't think that her design is flawed. If she loses matchups it's to individual characters with multiple strengths that work well against her. For instance. Fox has a myriad of close-range tools and an up-air that eats through her disadvantage state along with a reflector, while Rosalina stuffs Samus' neutral while also having incredible up-air juggling and Gravitational Pull. Samus loses to these characters, but it's the combination of the tools that results in the loss.

Charge Shot and z-air are some of the best long range options in the entire game, which means that grappler matchups like DK are favorable or at least even for Samus. Samus might have a tether grab but it's also the longest tether grab so she backs up these long range tools that typically lose to shield with another long-range tool that conversely beats shield, and the combination works so well for her that unlike other projectile zoners (Olimar and Villager come to mind) who can struggle with sword users like Marth and Cloud, Samus has a much easier time. Sure, she might end up losing to someone like Cloud because of the up-air juggling but it's a far cry from the devastating loss in neutral that Villager or another projectile zoner might suffer. Speaking of projectile zoners, she has the tools to beat them too because of her superior midrange game, even if she loses to them at playing long-range, so they don't systematically beat her either.

Rushdown/pressure who can stay in Samus' face have historically been the tricky category for her. To some degree, the same principles above apply against them too, however; as we've already seen she sports a pretty good Mario matchup, and Mario is a character with both strong CQC and a reflector. Samus survives in that MU and others like it because her superior range and disjoints allow her to play a good midrange game that rushdown characters typically don't like. She has one of those dash attacks that's so good that it can be used in neutral outside of whiff punishes. Yeah, you might get powershielded for your trouble sometimes, but she combines it with a combo tree that's more than rewarding enough, so that the risk:reward ratio is manageable.

Still, before her buffs, she had some trouble against that last category; the combination of a bad jab combo and a bad roll meant that she couldn't really get someone out once that character got in. But now, with an f4 jumpsquat and two aerials that can kill, she can just use short-hop air dodge and react to the opponent being in her face, and the typical responses to a SHAD such as a delayed aerial can be punished by the Charge Shot mixup, so at high percents opponents will die for trying to CQC Samus. The SHAD option was just the little extra oomph that she needed in addition to pp or pivot f-tilts and d-tilt to scare opponents from oppressing her in her face, which shifts the risk-reward ratio from "manageable" to "pretty good."

If she can handle grapplers, sword zoners, projectile zoners, and rushdown/pressure characters, she's in a good spot and should be a contender for top 20. Top 15 and top 10 really depends on how skilled the Samus is at exploiting her combo tree; there's a lot of work that needs to be done there and Salem would be the man to show us that work, but my prediction is that Samus is quite close to top tier and will demonstrate it with the right representatives. She has the tools to beat anyone. Sounds a lot like Mario to me.

 

[Rizen]

If she can handle grapplers, sword zoners, projectile zoners, and rushdown/pressure characters, she's in a good spot and should be a contender for top 20. .

Playing devil's advocate here: So can characters like Link, Ike and maybe Robin (IDK his MU spread). If by "handle" you mean mostly even MUs. You need more than that to be high tier.

This brings up: what is more crippling to a character, to not have advantaged high/top tier MUs but be able to deal with any type of character or to have huge strong points, a clutch factor, but also lose horribly to a few characters like DK does vs ZSS and Rosa?

I already said Samus is better than Link but how much really? How good are Samus' top tier MUs?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Jumpsquat

Thanks and yikes, zard has among the worst jumpsquats in the game. Only Bowser's is worse.

 

[Kofu]

The other day, Earth mentioned on Twitter that he's never ever been able to beat Songn, not in friendlies and not in tournament.

Food for thought?

That's honestly interesting to me, since he plays two characters that I feel beat Game & Watch. They're both doable, with Pit being more manageable than Corrin (Corrin's burst range and KO power skew the MU significantly), but uphill fights. Might be my playstyle, though.

I'm glad that Songn is doing more again, I hadn't heard anything about him for a while. IIRC he has the best DThrow to UAir confirms of Game & Watch players which would drastically help things. I'd love to watch more of his recent play.

Samus doesn't really categorically lose matchups so I don't think that her design is flawed. If she loses matchups it's to individual characters with multiple strengths that work well against her. For instance. Fox has a myriad of close-range tools and an up-air that eats through her disadvantage state along with a reflector, while Rosalina stuffs Samus' neutral while also having incredible up-air juggling and Gravitational Pull. Samus loses to these characters, but it's the combination of the tools that results in the loss.

Charge Shot and z-air are some of the best long range options in the entire game, which means that grappler matchups like DK are favorable or at least even for Samus. Samus might have a tether grab but it's also the longest tether grab so she backs up these long range tools that typically lose to shield with another long-range tool that conversely beats shield, and the combination works so well for her that unlike other projectile zoners (Olimar and Villager come to mind) who can struggle with sword users like Marth and Cloud, Samus has a much easier time. Sure, she might end up losing to someone like Cloud because of the up-air juggling but it's a far cry from the devastating loss in neutral that Villager or another projectile zoner might suffer. Speaking of projectile zoners, she has the tools to beat them too because of her superior midrange game, even if she loses to them at playing long-range, so they don't systematically beat her either.

Rushdown/pressure who can stay in Samus' face have historically been the tricky category for her. To some degree, the same principles above apply against them too, however; as we've already seen she sports a pretty good Mario matchup, and Mario is a character with both strong CQC and a reflector. Samus survives in that MU and others like it because her superior range and disjoints allow her to play a good midrange game that rushdown characters typically don't like. She has one of those dash attacks that's so good that it can be used in neutral outside of whiff punishes. Yeah, you might get powershielded for your trouble sometimes, but she combines it with a combo tree that's more than rewarding enough, so that the risk:reward ratio is manageable.

Still, before her buffs, she had some trouble against that last category; the combination of a bad jab combo and a bad roll meant that she couldn't really get someone out once that character got in. But now, with an f4 jumpsquat and two aerials that can kill, she can just use short-hop air dodge and react to the opponent being in her face, and the typical responses to a SHAD such as a delayed aerial can be punished by the Charge Shot mixup, so at high percents opponents will die for trying to CQC Samus. The SHAD option was just the little extra oomph that she needed in addition to pp or pivot f-tilts and d-tilt to scare opponents from oppressing her in her face, which shifts the risk-reward ratio from "mangeable" to "pretty good."

If she can handle grapplers, sword zoners, projectile zoners, and rushdown/pressure characters, she's in a good spot and should be a contender for top 20. Top 15 and top 10 really depends on how skilled the Samus is at exploiting her combo tree; there's a lot of work that needs to be done there and Salem would be the man to show us that work, but my prediction is that Samus is quite close to top tier and will demonstrate it with the right representatives. She has the tools to beat anyone. Sounds a lot like Mario to me.

Samus has a lot going for her and I could definitely see her moving up. I've been playing a good amount of her the last few months and quite enjoy it. She can switch between a keep-away game to rushing her opponent down fairly easily which is a good asset to have. Her range (projectiles and standard attacks) is backed up with power and she has good mixup options to deal with pressure if need be. You can't wantonly go after her shield because of Screw Attack (a real sleeper option for best rage abuser in the game, IMO), the third fastest OoS option of the tether grabbing characters at frame 5 after Pac-Man's Pac Jump and ZSS's Boost Kick (both frame 4, the trampoline spawning frame 1), but with intangibility starting frame 3. That's a great asset to have, even if it is risky.

 

[Goombo]

Mr R was using regular dash dance (not extendend dash dance) a lot and with quite some success yesterday, especially in his set vs JJROCKETS.

(at 2:30 for example)
The main use was to delay dash ins and to bait out options after jab 2.
Any thoughts on how useful this can be for Sheik/other characters in the long run?




random observation: I don't particulary like Max Ketchums style of commentating too much, but man, this guy just knows so much more about the game compared to at least 95% of all commentators and notices details going on on screen nearly no other commentator would either recognize or care to talk about.

 

[Nah]

Playing devil's advocate here: So can characters like ... and maybe Robin (IDK his MU spread).

Eh, I wouldn't really say that. Robin struggles in general against characters that can adequately pressure her, and most projectile zoners are not great to fight either

 

[Deleted member]

Playing devil's advocate here: So can characters like Link, Ike and maybe Robin (IDK his MU spread). If by "handle" you mean mostly even MUs. You need more than that to be high tier.

This brings up: what is more crippling to a character, to not have advantaged high/top tier MUs but be able to deal with any type of character or to have huge strong points, a clutch factor, but also lose horribly to a few characters like DK does vs ZSS and Rosa?

I already said Samus is better than Link but how much really? How good are Samus' top tier MUs?

is gaaaaarbage and her worst MU.by far. I've had a Samus the past couple of months and that is just a case where I'd rather drink bleach than play.

These characters aren't particularly top tier but are pretty bad as well. Aggro also stuffs Samus.

 

[|RK|]

Mr R was using regular dash dance (not extendend dash dance) a lot and with quite some success yesterday, especially in his set vs JJROCKETS.

(at 2:30 for example)
The main use was to delay dash ins and to bait out options after jab 2.
Any thoughts on how useful this can be for Sheik/other characters in the long run?




random observation: I don't particulary like Max Ketchums style of commentating too much, but man, this guy just knows so much more about the game compared to at least 95% of all commentators and notices details going on on screen nearly no other commentator would either recognize or care to talk about.

Yeah, I've never seen regular dash dance used so well. Didn't know it was that useful.

It's usually the commentators that are pretty good players too that notice this stuff. So Dire and SilentDoom also have that ability.

 

[williamsga555]

These characters aren't particularly top tier but are pretty bad as well. Aggro also stuffs Samus.

Was about to say, Meta Knight seems almost tailor-made for giving Samus a real bad time. Short character with a ground-based neutral that leads into a punish game that's particularly devastating against floaties. Also has a dangerous off-stage pressure game to boot.

Granted, I'm not particularly well-versed in either character, but on paper it seems like Meta Knight should have the advantage here.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik's dashdance is a good tool to bait spotdodge and whiffed aerials without being in whiff punish range due to how fast her burst options. However, DD becomes less useful once people see the way overshot aerials interact with it in this game. Overshoot a Diddy fair when someone dashdances in front of you and you'll see what I mean.