Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

I'm wondering, would Rosa fit ZeRo's ideal playstyle well? She has the ability to dominate neutral like he wants, while also possessing the X factor he feels Diddy lacks.

Of course, he might not want to manage Luma, so there's that.

 

[Illuminose]

I'm wondering, would Rosa fit ZeRo's ideal playstyle well? She has the ability to dominate neutral like he wants, while also possessing the X factor he feels Diddy lacks.

Of course, he might not want to manage Luma, so there's that.

no

zero wants a character he can switch between aggressive and defensive with on a whim, effectively, knowing his playstyle, and rosalina is not that

 

[NairWizard]

ZeRolina would be the most terrifying thing this game has ever beheld, however.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ZeRo should either play Sheik/Diddy or Marth/Diddy but he's too hardheaded to listen when people repeat these things to him.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

<_<; >_>; Didn't somebody say something taking hostages if the Marth vs. Lucina discussion was brought up again?

oh dear.....

 

[Yonder]

<_<; >_>; Didn't somebody say something taking hostages if the Marth vs. Lucina discussion was brought up again?

oh dear.....

I think this was announced before Lucina had a humongous increase in usage though, so it wouldn't be a bad topic to discuss now (since the gap is much smaller).

 

[Krysco]

It sounds to me like Zero just wants a 'broken' character. Someone that has everything. He no longer has hoo hah Diddy or prepatch Sheik and he has a reason to dislike every top tier, be it their lack of an x factor or inconsistency or lacking neutral.

I would say he should just pick whichever character he finds most enjoyable and/or least stressful to use but then he also needs to play well since it's how he makes a living. He just needs a nice medium between being viable and not being stressful. Has he given any thought towards Ryu or Fox?

 

[Y2Kay]

Zero is grown ass man, and is pretty good at this game. He can find a main on his own. That aint our job.

So, can we talk about something else?

 

[FamilyTeam]

I was just about to say that. Why are talking about this? We're literally acting like we know what is going on inside ZeRo's head better than he knows.

 

[Yuki-Trey]

Hey, anyone has smash for 3ds, if so, I would gladly appreciate a few matches. Just got a new main and want to test it out. My friend code is 2294-9064-0138. Post yours so we can become friends and fight

 

[ARGHETH]

Hey, anyone has smash for 3ds, if so, I would gladly appreciate a few matches. Just got a new main and want to test it out. My friend code is 2294-9064-0138. Post yours so we can become friends and fight

This isn't the thread for that, you want this one.

 

[TDK]

Hey, anyone has smash for 3ds, if so, I would gladly appreciate a few matches. Just got a new main and want to test it out. My friend code is 2294-9064-0138. Post yours so we can become friends and fight

This isn't the thread for that, you want this one.

Forget that, why Puff?

 

[Nobie]

I think ZeRo's experiencing a "grass is greener" thing. Smash 4 is generally set up such that, if you have a dominant neutral, you lose out in some other category.

This has been brought up before, but it's interesting to go back to why ZeRo dropped Sheik from main status in the first place.

The big issue was that, when Sheik's fair had better range, it could stuff most attacks without consequence. Ever since it got nerfed, it meant a greater chance of trading with opponents. ZeRo basically wanted a character who, if used correctly, can really make the opponent feel like they're making no progress in neutral. This is what Diddy's been good at in the past.

I think the turning point might be that players are starting to exploit Diddy's tiny vulnerabilities. The key examples are Ally's ability to call out ZeRo's short hop fairs (which would be safe normally, except Mario up smash says otherwise) and players challenging Monkey Flip. It sometimes seems like ZeRo relies on having a panic button that can just get him out of dodge. Bayo might be good for this, but Cloud strangely enough isn't. Cloud's good in a lot of ways and he has a lot of dangerous swordy buttons, but he doesn't have a "get me out of here" aside from maybe Limit Climhazzard.

Re: Lucina being underestimated early on

I think part of the stigma Lucina had since the start of the game actually came from Roy's legacy. In Melee, Roy is clearly inferior to Marth, and part of the general logic of that was basically, both want to space with the tip of their blades as much as possible, except Marth is rewarded for it while Roy is punished. I think there was a general assumption that this rule would apply to Lucina as well, but in hindsight there's a huge difference between having noodle tippers and having the tip of your blade still hit pretty hard (just not as hard).

Speaking of Roy, I've been watching Roy videos lately to try and get a better understanding of how the character ticks. All you Roy experts can correct me, but here's what I've noticed:

Roy seems to rely on having a really solid dash game. By that, I mean that his options out of a dash are pretty good. For one thing, it's fast enough to get in range to punish a lot of different things. Watching Hyper vs. Komorikiri's Corrin (though Komo isn't a Corrin main), it's notable that he could fairly reliably punish Corrin's Dragon Lunge. No matter which way Corrin tried to escape, Roy was right on top ready to do soemthing.

In terms of what Roy gets out of dash, Double-Edge Dance throws out large transcendent hitboxes that can challenge most things, grab is self-explanatory, and Blazer feels like it takes advantage of how much people like to short hop/fight Roy because his aerials aren't great.

There's also something about Roy that makes it seem like he has to change his game plan significantly depending on who he's facing. Against characters with shorter range, he relies on the reach of his sword much more. Against fellow swordsmen, he seems to need his speed and ability to quickly close a gap. It's quite different from most swordsmen, but I can't necessarily explain why.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Forget that, why Puff?

Why not Puff.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Why not Puff.

I mean, let's be real, Puff's garbage, but whoever someone wants to play is who they should play.

Re: Advanced Techniques
ATs don't mean **** when you don't have the fundamentals to back them up with. Example: Perfect Pivoting. Doesn't matter if you can perfect pivot whenever you want if you don't know how to apply it. And just because you can do something doesn't inherently make you a better player than someone who can't. I still see plenty of people just perfect pivoting just because they have the dexterity to do it, but not actually knowing why they're doing it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wonder of we will see a Bayo called "Persistient Witch" appear in places like smaller locals or Anthers Ladder anytime soon

Lol I kid, I kid, but seeing ZeRo suddenly try picking up Bayo seems almost surreal considering all the drama he "had" with her..as like many said before she does not really fit his playstyle philosophy

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, let me chime in.

That training wheels comment - was a while back.
But it still applies completely and utterly.
The antagonistic assumption being made here (although SolidSense clarified with 'ones not necessarily better than the other') is that because Lucina is a fantastic training character for Marth, that surmises her entire worth. Why fam, why?

As you learn to tighten your spacing with EITHER more and more, ones ability with Marth increases; as consistency in this gives more benefit to Marth than Lucina (-ish and its not a huge gain for Marth most of the time; and there's more to it than just that, and that's where the two characters truly differentiate). If you're able to react (or dynamically visualize) your own spacing as it happens (a skill that takes a lot of effort and isn't as paramount for most characters or at most levels of play) then you'll be able to apply this dynamic to an on-going muscle memory exercise (that takes a long time to master).

Lucina's worthwhile niches are a mix of both known and unknown factors that are continuing to develop. Marth's nuance of 'you nearly always have a move that can tipper your enemy no matter the position, right now, you just need to know which one is best and pick it' takes significant dedication and isn't something worthwhile for someone picking up a pocket or secondary for a small few match ups.
Furthermore Lucina's reward for the 'always good choices' can be more rewarding than the one or two actions Marth can take that will tipper. As in, Marth may be able to tipper up tilt (or up air) you in this juggle situation right now near a ledge nearly guaranteed but it wont be enough to KO off the top, while Lucina fsmash/bair could (although uair/bair kinda overlap a bit in tipper use cases) this is a scenario that tends to favour Lucina every time.

Before you get those nuances, there's still like a 90% overlapping threshold that one doesn't need to play Marth for.
But you'll still be benefiting your Marth while doing it, if that's your intention.
Moves like down tilt and neutral air (2 of 3 of their moves which travel horizontally for their majority [the other, shieldbreaker]) used in neutral appropriately are either whiffing or tippering; but they aren't going to be giving you much more gains on Lucina than the typical sweeping/arcing choices (at least, imo, pls don't bring up nair1), while their tipper poke potential and the fear they can generate is the entire reason one uses them on Marth.

I'll still maintain that for those who want to main Marth that playing Lucina is a very intelligent way to do so at an early point of development.
In contrast I'd hypothesize practicing Marth will benefit a Lucina main at a middle point of development (ideally helping you diversify your move set choices).

 

[FeelMeUp]

The main reason I fear so much more than is his ridiculously rewarding ground game coupled with the death conversion rate on ledgetraps.

Rage Lucina isn't scary in neutral, but if rage Marth jabs me near the ledge at 80 I might be dead. He can control the groundspace in front of him so much better with his jab and tipper ftilt/DB while reaping far higher rewards to boot.
Playing neutral against Lucina around 110 is still safe as long as I stay inside of the center stage "rectangle," but Marth could flat out kill me at a much earlier % with jab>imagination, tipper DB, or tipper nair.

To add insult to injury, there's also the fear that comes from his landing and ledge traps due to fullhop tipper uair against my Bouncing Fish at 80, pivot ftilt or jab vs my getups near 90, tipper nair on my standard getup or ledge jumps, and tipper utilt on my landings.

Getting hit by some of these things(tipper ftilt when you're cornered is goofy as hell) makes me audibly say "What the ****."
I don't think has ridiculously dangerous tools that demand this level of respect.
Yeah, yeah, nair>fsmash, bair offstage, shieldstun throughout the blade, blablabla. But honestly? A lot of that stuff feels sorta gimmicky when you're fighting the good SAFE top tiers.

Who knows. Maybe I'm the one that's missing something. But watching all these people(ZeRo, Mr. E, etc) say things like "oh Lucina better more consistent" while the Lucinas aren't actually doing all that well wins wise...confuses me. They look crazy.
Marth's nuts, but Lucina isn't. Guess it'll take people a little while to kill off these weird kneejerk responses to Marth's results dipping.
This is the last thing I ever want to say about this topic.

 

[TDK]

Smash Pendiente 85 (79 Entrants) (Mexico)

1st: Hyuga
2nd: D~4NG
3rd: BryanZ
4th: Salva

Note: Chag placed 5th.

 

[NairWizard]

To be fair, as someone who has always maintained that Marth is flat out better than Lucina, I'm beginning to understand that there are legitimate reasons to play Lucina such as her edgeguarding and ability to bait people into f-smash. She's a good character with merits of her own, and actually relevant results now, and I won't say that Marth is "way better" until we see counterplay develop for both.

I'm more than willing to admit that I was wrong when I'm wrong, unlike a lot of "hard-line" posters. I've been wrong before, and I was wrong about Lucina being totally inferior/eclipsed in every way. We've seen that demonstrated pretty clearly.

I will say, however, that Lucina's results need a little bit of an asterisk. We see her being used as a secondary more than as a main at the highest level, and some of the matchups that she should be winning (like vs. Mario), she isn't, so the future could still see a decline in Lucina results and/or an uptick in Marth usage. It seems very likely. But for now it's hard to make the argument that Marth is totally better in all ways.

I would definitely agree with FMU on this point though: I'd rather face a Lucina in tournament than a Marth. Seems like I'm just much less likely to lose the game to a Lucina.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

hrrm, from what seeing there's two discussions going on
discussion one: Wondering if Zero should make a substitute (hopefully dead as one person already pointed out the ridiculousness of thinking we know what's going through someone else's head. We aren't mewtwo as much as some of us want to be.)
discussion two: another Marth vs. Lucina discussion which while civil and more relevant tends to crop up every ten pages. I'm all for discussing them but it happens a little too often.

 

[Krysco]

hrrm, from what seeing there's two discussions going on
discussion one: Wondering if Zero should make a substitute (hopefully dead as one person already pointed out the ridiculousness of thinking we know what's going through someone else's head. We aren't mewtwo as much as some of us want to be.)
discussion two: another Marth vs. Lucina discussion which while civil and more relevant tends to crop up every ten pages. I'm all for discussing them but it happens a little too often.

Discussion 2 happened because of discussion 1. Zero already uses Lucina and based on what it sounds like he wants from a character, some people think Marth fits the bill.

We can't read Zero's mind but we can read what he posts and listen to what he says. And given that this is the best player in the world, if he doesn't pull a Dabuz or...I wanna say Ally or Anti claimed they'd drop Mario but didn't...basically, if Zero does actually pick up another character and either drop Diddy entirely or just keep him as a secondary, that's potentially a huge increase in results for whichever character he picks. It's partially thanks to him that Lucina has results.

'Sides, Esam hasn't made any ridiculous Pika claims recently that I know of nor has there been a recent breakout like Frostbite Lucario, Civil War Link/Falcon or EVO Mega Man/Mewtwo so we can't just delve back into the comfort of Pika bashing or claiming character x is top whatever number.

 

[ARGHETH]

'Sides, Esam hasn't made any ridiculous Pika claims recently that I know of nor has there been a recent breakout like Frostbite Lucario, Civil War Link/Falcon or EVO Mega Man/Mewtwo so we can't just delve back into the comfort of Pika bashing or claiming character x is top whatever number.

I mean, Pika discussion hasn't really happened here since some time last thread because it's pretty much an unofficial red topic at this point.

 

[L9999]

I mean, Pika discussion hasn't really happened here since some time last thread because it's pretty much an unofficial red topic at this point.

It has more to do that Pikachu hasn't appeared in the radar because nobody plays him, so there is nothing to talk about him. It's like talking on how I crossed from one side of the street to the other side.

 

[Floor]

I'm scared of both Marth and Lucina in bracket. Both kill really early and if I'm at 80%, Lucina can kill me basically without rage at any moment with an fsmash read.

I was playing a top 3 Texas player in friendlies the other day and he gives Lucina mad props; the fact that Lucina slides while jabbing or uptilting makes it incredibly hard to perfect sheild. He was practicing his Cloud and would charge limit until I approached and Powersheild my option eveytime... except for when I approached with sliding uptilt. I must have played 50 games that night and half of my wins in neutral were thanks to sliding uptilt. Sliding uptilt/jab is very underrated and can net stocks at 100% with followups (Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash). Her sliding mechanic is simply so hard to Powershield against which is scary in its own.

Yeah, Marth can kill me at 80% with jab>ftilt maybe (haven't played him in a while, forgot how early that kills) but Lucina can read anything I do and punish with fsmash and kill me just as early, or do the same jab into Dancing Blade and kill me two hits later. If Marth kills you at 80%, he killed you about as early as he can safely. If he misses the KO confirm when you're at 80 and brings you to 90 then 100, Lucina can kill too no matter the spacing.

I think both are threatening.
And just let ZeRo play who he wants to play.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I would be interested in seeing ZeRo pick up Corrin (of course, main-bias from my part). He claims that Corrin is top tier, so it would be interesting to see if he could prove it. Personally, I think Corrin is just high tier, but high tier characters can still get good results, and, assuming Corrin fits ZeRo's playstyle, I believe ZeRo could do really well with Corrin.

As for Lucina, I'd imagine there's a reason many prefer Lucina as a secondary over Marth. I also believe there's a reason Mr. E has started to play more Lucina than Marth. I do believe that MkLeo is generally better off playing Marth than Lucina, however, mostly because he's so good at spacing. Most people aren't as good as MkLeo, so perhaps Lucina would fit the majority of players better? Of course, since the tier list is concerned with top level of play, Marth should be ranked higher than Lucina. For mid level and maybe even high level Lucina might very well be better.

Either way they are pretty similar and should be right next to each other in most tier lists.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Speaking of the whole "Ganon not being training wheels for Falcon" fiasco, how would you react to someone who wanted to get good with Mario/Doc and used the respective clone as training wheels?

 

[Goombo]

I will say, however, that Lucina's results need a little bit of an asterisk. We see her being used as a secondary more than as a main at the highest level, and some of the matchups that she should be winning (like vs. Mario), she isn't, so the future could still see a decline in Lucina results and/or an uptick in Marth usage..

About this, I don't think ZeRos questionalbe succes compared to Leo in the Mario matchup (ZeRo is now 2-2 in sets against top level Mario, or something) has anything to do with Marth vs Lucina, and more with the way he plays the matchup.
ZeRo nearly refuses to implement perfect pivots in any way to this day, while they are an integral part of Leos neutral.
Keep in mind, we are talking about one (or two) characters with some of the best options out of pps in the game against one known to have serious trouble dealing with perfect pivot away as an option.

Yeah, Marth can kill me at 80% with jab>ftilt maybe (haven't played him in a while, forgot how early that kills) but Lucina can read anything I do and punish with fsmash and kill me just as early, or do the same jab into Dancing Blade and kill me two hits later.

Hard read moves are in no way equal replacement for kills off of neutral tools, I thought we discussed that months ago.
Lucina rarely can hit somebody with FSmash if he doesn't make mistakes in the first place. Even in disadvantaged 50:50s against Lucina, you usally have at least one option that avoids her FSmash and lets you live a good while longer.

 

[Browny]

I mean, let's be real, Puff's garbage, but whoever someone wants to play is who they should play.

Re: Advanced Techniques
ATs don't mean **** when you don't have the fundamentals to back them up with. Example: Perfect Pivoting. Doesn't matter if you can perfect pivot whenever you want if you don't know how to apply it. And just because you can do something doesn't inherently make you a better player than someone who can't. I still see plenty of people just perfect pivoting just because they have the dexterity to do it, but not actually knowing why they're doing it.

The best is when you get players who only perfect pivot after KO'ing the enemy or when on the other side of the stage, then approach using a dash attack against an enemy in neutral.

I'm glad Lucina is seeing more and more use, the fact people are doing so proves two things I've been saying for ages.

1) The major determining factor of whether a character has a high representation at the highest level is whether or not high level players put their cursor over any given character and press A without pressing B. How she compares to marth is irrelevant, how she ranks on the tier list is irrelevant. The fact is if absolutely no one ever chose her, she would be like the mii's.

2) Lucina is explicitly a better character than marth because she rewards consistency. Whether people like it or not, you can't simply always space tippers with Marth because the enemy is just as carefully avoiding them. Marth rewards tippers, but often that can have more to do with luck than it has to do with the players skill.

Like, Lucina might be able to kill <100 30% of the time and 100-150 the other 70%. Marth might be <70 10% of the time, <100 10% of the time and <150 the other 80%. I completely made those numbers up but what I'm saying is that consistency is more important at higher levels than relying on tippers because you are completely ignoring the other 50% of the equation where the enemy can say 'no' to dying at 60% to a tipper fsmash by simply staying out of that range at those %'s.

 

[JayZee1700]

Speaking of the whole "Ganon not being training wheels for Falcon" fiasco, how would you react to someone who wanted to get good with Mario/Doc and used the respective clone as training wheels?

Doc / Mario is a very similar case to the CF / Ganon case. Whilst CF and Ganon have similar moves, some with similar uses, Doc and Mario have similar moves, but very different uses.

List of Similar moves b/t Doc and Mario:
- Jab
- U-tilt
- F-tilt
- D-tilt
- U-air
- B-air
- F-air
- N-air
- D-smash
- U-smash
- F-smash
- Side-B
- Up-B
List of Different moves b/t Doc and Mario:
- D-air
- Neutral-B
- Down-B


So there's not too much different between the two. Although almost all of Doc's moves that are similar to Mario's deal more damage and knock back, making him more of a "3-hit to edge guard" character, like Ganondorf. Since Mario's moves do less damage and knock back, he's the combo crazy character we all know, like Captain Falcon. So I don't think that you can play Ganon for Falcon as "training wheels," or Doc for Mario because the style of play for Doc and Ganon are different than the playing styles of Mario and CF. It won't help you get better at a combo-heavy / grappler character if you're playing a bait-and-punish character...

Now let's think about this in application to Marcina or Pit / Dark Pit. Do you think it's the same case?

 

[FamilyTeam]

The main reason I fear so much more than is his ridiculously rewarding ground game coupled with the death conversion rate on ledgetraps.

Rage Lucina isn't scary in neutral, but if rage Marth jabs me near the ledge at 80 I might be dead. He can control the groundspace in front of him so much better with his jab and tipper ftilt/DB while reaping far higher rewards to boot.
Playing neutral against Lucina around 110 is still safe as long as I stay inside of the center stage "rectangle," but Marth could flat out kill me at a much earlier % with jab>imagination, tipper DB, or tipper nair.

To add insult to injury, there's also the fear that comes from his landing and ledge traps due to fullhop tipper uair against my Bouncing Fish at 80, pivot ftilt or jab vs my getups near 90, tipper nair on my standard getup or ledge jumps, and tipper utilt on my landings.

Getting hit by some of these things(tipper ftilt when you're cornered is goofy as hell) makes me audibly say "What the ****."
I don't think has ridiculously dangerous tools that demand this level of respect.
Yeah, yeah, nair>fsmash, bair offstage, shieldstun throughout the blade, blablabla. But honestly? A lot of that stuff feels sorta gimmicky when you're fighting the good SAFE top tiers.

Who knows. Maybe I'm the one that's missing something. But watching all these people(ZeRo, Mr. E, etc) say things like "oh Lucina better more consistent" while the Lucinas aren't actually doing all that well wins wise...confuses me. They look crazy.
Marth's nuts, but Lucina isn't. Guess it'll take people a little while to kill off these weird kneejerk responses to Marth's results dipping.
This is the last thing I ever want to say about this topic.

First of all: What is fear.
If you're afraid of anything while playing this game, you already started wrong.
Scary is leaving my house in the night, playing this game is not scary.
You need to be wary of what is going on in the match and what could happen but not be shaking at your bases like "Brrrr I can get hit now and I could die!"
Second: You get jabbed by Lucina at 80-ish 90-ish percent and you're dead the same way.

This is completely without rage.
Speaking of "without rage", Lucina's Bair, Up Air and Neutral Air still KO Sheik pretty early, and Lucina's ledge trapping is also extremely dangerous (especially when you can FSmash every ground option on reaction and kill at 60% minimum, and all of her Aerials can still kill well if you go for the jump options)
Jab>FTilt as Marth is actually not true until about 120-something percent, is never true with DI away and DI in always guarantees a sourspot, and at those percents, Lucina can Jab>Up Tilt for the kill as well, and that's not one you can so easily escape (and also doesn't require you to be close to the edge to actually kill)
Jab>Dolphin Slash only stops working against Sheik when it's already killing cross stage. Again, without any sort of rage.
I won't stop you from not "fearing" or respecting Lucina's options just because whoever you fight doesn't know how to actually bring her consistent kill power to play. You just can't act like that's always gonna be the norm and Marth is o-so scary and he needs to be completely respected and Jab>FTilt is the best and most dangerous thing ever. It's been a long time since any of the Marths in my scene killed me sub 100% anyway.

The only sort of "knee-jerk" reaction to Marth's results was when he started rising. I predicted he'd get a big drop in results not long after Genesis 4 and now here we are.

 

[ARISTOS]

that consistency is more important at higher levels than relying on tippers because you are completely ignoring the other 50% of the equation where the enemy can say 'no' to dying at 60% to a tipper fsmash by simply staying out of that range at those %'s.

Didn't we spend all week of ZeRo complaining about how far all of Diddy's consistency, the lack of X-Factor made him want to drop the character?

Marth vs Lucina discussion should not be framed around "random tippers". The tipper hitbox is lenient and things like f-smash will only be used in trap-like situations. Good Marth's WILL be hitting tippers; the question is whether Marth's extra potency in corner situations bears more fruit than Lucina's freer spacing ability.

FamilyTeam your clip is neat but IMO Jab -> DB is probably even stronger on Marth given the greater mixup threat of Jab -> DB4/Fair/Ftilt, all of which kill at the percentage of the clip you posted, while I am not sure if Fair/Ftilt kill for Lucina. It might not be true though.

I would also be very careful in using results to signify Lucina's strength. Lucina's rise has largely come through the use of secondaries that have not been set in stone, while Marth's came from mains.

 

[PK Bash]

On the contrary, "fear" is very important to this game. Be it fear of losing, fear of lack of acceptance, whatever. It is evident even outside of playing, like top-tier shaming, and it is a consistent factor in every match I've ever played or watched. You ever done something you didn't mean to do then done a panic spotdodge or something to avoid a potential punish? You can surely notice the difference when watching a match when somebody is scared. Cut on any top-level match right now - doesn't matter which one - and count how many spaced attacks, rolls, airdodges and even moments of hesitation those guys start doing when they don't want to die.
That is a form of fear.
Winning and losing tournament or other high-stakes matches is built on it. Abusing the "fight-or-flight" response instigated by fear is so important to winning, whether you do it conciously or not.

I get that Smash doesn't elicit quite the same effect than if somebody had a gun to your head but "fear" is not binary, there is more to it than being "on" or "off". Nothing is ever binary where humans are involved and this is something pretty important that it's all too easy to forget when we put our scientist hats on and analyse this game.
Just remember that any time you feel very strongly about your own "infallible" logic regarding one thing or another about this game and can't fathom somebody else's logic on the matter. You may think you're correct, and confirmation bias etc is a thing of course, but you just have to know that this game will never conform to a series of logical principles as long as humans are playing it. Logic alone is far from the only force dictating this game.

It sounds obvious, yet still people always forget the human factor. It is important to analyses such as these however, so please do keep it in the back of your mind, regardless of what is the topical debate. Maybe a fresh look with that in mind will give this discussion a bit more purpose as currently I am seeing rather a lot of personal ego driving both sides of this debate (which is probably why it's always like pulling teeth), and it ain't doing anybody any favours.

 

[FamilyTeam]

FamilyTeam your clip is neat but IMO Jab -> DB is probably even stronger on Marth given the greater mixup threat of Jab -> DB4/Fair/Ftilt, all of which kill at the percentage of the clip you posted, while I am not sure if Fair/Ftilt kill for Lucina. It might not be true though.

At this percent range with Lucina, she has access to both Jab>DB and Jab>Dolphin Slash as true kill confirms. Marth gets FTilt and DB. Marth in general tends to be a bit more versatile with his Jab stuff (Lucina's exclusive or improved sliding Jab related stuff nonwithstanding) and people who've played these characters for ages know that, pretty much.

When it comes to "fear", I think Leo and Void are the best examples of people who are as controlled in their emotions as possible. Of course they still get tilted, but they don't play like they're afraid of the consequences of the match all the time. This sort of "cold" view of how the match is going can really help.

 

[Lord Dio]

I assume Smash'N'Splash 3 is on the Summer of Smash page, or at least will be covered there?

 

[Game7a1]

I assume Smash'N'Splash 3 is on the Summer of Smash page, or at least will be covered there?

https://smashboards.com/threads/sum...mashnsplash-3-battle-of-bc-2-and-salt.448101/
As well as Battle of BC 2 and SALT.

 

[|RK|]

Just wanna chime in and say pp ftilt on Marcina is super obnoxious. That's the type of stuff that truly makes it hard for grapplers to get in. Retreating fair, dtilt, etc. all feel way more manageable.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

However you don't want to be so "unafraid" that you do something stupid and get beat for it. Keeping control of your emotions is important in a match or anything really but ignoring them isn't always beneficial. When you play against a DK and your in Ding Dong percentages you better damn well be afraid when your in range of his grab don't let the fear of getting grabbed cause you to do something dumb making you get grabbed but rather let the fear guide you into rational and safe options to avoid being grabbed. Playing with emotion is not always a bad thing

 

[Nah]

However you don't want to be so "unafraid" that you do something stupid and get beat for it. Keeping control of your emotions is important in a match or anything really but ignoring them isn't always beneficial. When you play against a DK and your in Ding Dong percentages you better damn well be afraid when your in range of his grab don't let the fear of getting grabbed cause you to do something dumb making you get grabbed but rather let the fear guide you into rational and safe options to avoid being grabbed. Playing with emotion is not always a bad thing

Basically what you're describing here is "respecting" something, and that really leans more towards not playing with your emotions/being calm rather than playing with a mix of emotional/not emotional. Not thinking is not thinking and happens regardless of one's emotional state. Getting emotional tends to cause bad plays or sour discussions. Being calm never really does.

 

[Thinkaman]

This discussion reminded me: I might have mentioned this previously, but I'm convinced that Doc is definitively the best introductory training character in the game.

Most characters encourage the player to spend a disproportionate amount of time mastering either highly specific combos or highly specialized neutral tools. New players find themselves rewarded for focusing on developing these character-specific traits rather than fundamentals, but this slows long-term growth and has very low payoff when they realize who they actually want to main and jump ship.

Doc doesn't have Bananas or Limit, his universe doesn't revolve around specific ladder combos, he doesn't have a tether grab or Street Fighter controls, and he (ironically) doesn't require a PhD in Monodo Engineering or Fruit Sciences. Doc has no special sauce; even his d-throw combos are (in my experience) far more generic and less rout than plumber Mario's.


Additionally, due to the nature of the neutral, I think it's harder for a newer player to transition from:

• Long-range to low-range
• High-mobility to low-mobility

Contrast with attack (startup) speed and attack strength, which I feel players can quickly adapt to negative changes in when moving between characters.

The difference is that range and mobility dictate what situations you try to put yourself in, while startup speed and damage merely determine what you do (and your reward) once you get there. It's harder to learn the former, and the crutch of having a broad advantage in range or mobility allows some glossing over of that.

Doc is a very polarized character; he put all his stat points in attack startup and damage. His range and mobility are generally poor, while his moveset-wide damage-per-startup-frame and knockback-per-startup-frame is the best in the entire cast.


But wait, there's more! Here is a list of 12 specific skills newer players ought to be devoting specific attention to, all of which Doc emphasizes to a significant degree:

• Grabbing, especially out of Shield
  • Doc has a decent, non-tether grab with consistently great reward opportunities at all %s, yet grabs aren't free nor does his game revolve exclusively around them.
• Being hyper-conscious of aerial facing direction (inc. the difference between fair/bair)
  • Doc fair and bair could not be more different, and bair is the one you want to spam.
• Reversal Aerial Rush (reversing facing direction before jumping, usually so as to approach with bairs)
  • Throwing out safe SH bairs is one of Doc's bread-n-butters.
• Shorthopping
  • In addition to the frequent SH bairs, SH cape is a uniquely valuable tool.
• U-smash out of shield or dash/run
  • If Doc could be accused of having too much emphasis on one broken move, it'd be U-smash; but this is for the best! New players need to understand that U-smash is not just another move in Smash ASAP.
• U-special out of shield or dash/run
  • Just like U-smash, his overemphasis on the move means that learning Doc forces an understanding of when U-special is a legal and viable option.
• Deliberate use of low-startup moves as combo-breakers
  • Nair and up-b are both f3, so this is about as encouraged as it gets.
• Using projectiles to space and/or approach
  • Pills are the perfect training projectile; done in the air, used for both spacing and approach, can be reversed, punishable if overused.
• Air Dodge Punishing
  • Doc's fair and U-smash are unusually devastating payoffs for reading an air dodge.
• The value of recovering low
  • You need to learn to recover low before high, and Doc has a heavy bias in favor of this.
• Ledge Options, especially stand or jump
  • Doc has minimal gimmicks at the ledge, and has to learn the generic options well--but his use of those options isn't bad.
• Punishing Ledge Options, especially roll or attack
  • Doc is also "honest" when defending the stage, with U-smash as a trump card that devastates rolls.

(There are some additional skills that are just as important, but imo vary too much across the cast for any one character to claim to develop in such a universal fashion. This includes recovering high, saving KO moves, throw selection, and using tilts.)


What about standard Mario? Mario has a top 10 air-speed, more specific (and long) d-throw chains to memorize, does unusual counter-spacing with FLUDD, and uses dair in a unique way thanks to the landing hitbox; all of this make Mario more distinctly "Mario" and less of a universal character than Doc, who could be uncharitably described as generic Mario who hits harder.

Bottom line is, if you ask me, no one teaches better habits than Doc.