Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ARISTOS]

Finally got a chance to watch ZeRo vs Fatality.
His very first death(dair>footstool) shook him for the rest of the set.
G2 starts with Fatality dash attacking a Sheik's shield fullstage(which usually means Falcon should take about 54-65% minimum) and ZeRo's response is to....jump and try running away with bair. After that first death he essentially spent the rest of the set running away. That was honestly the most pathetic showing I've ever seen from him.
Dunno what's been going on with the guy lately.

edit: or it was the loss to nairo, idk.

When ZeRo's on point he's the best player in the world, but if his mentality gets shaken he doesn't seem to maintain a strong foundation, he falls apart and starts taking scared options

 

[Lord Dio]

Finally got a chance to watch ZeRo vs Fatality.
His very first death(dair>footstool) shook him for the rest of the set.
G2 starts with Fatality dash attacking a Sheik's shield fullstage(which usually means Falcon should take about 54-65% minimum) and ZeRo's response is to....jump and try running away with bair. After that first death he essentially spent the rest of the set running away. That was honestly the most pathetic showing I've ever seen from him.
Dunno what's been going on with the guy lately.

edit: or it was the loss to nairo, idk.

Imo, G1 as a whole shook ZeRo for the rest for the rest of the set. Fatality took it in 46 seconds. I don't think ZeRo's ever been two stocked that fast.


It was said I think either on facebook or in th YT comments, but going for the ditto was the best option ZeRo had. Fatality said he struggles with the ditto, and has lost the ditto to ZeRo, so it was ZeRo's best chance at slowing him down. But this was Fatality with momentum, that made it past T and Nairo at Civil War, and made it past Larry and Salem earlier in the day. Fatality with momentum is like three copies of "Game 5 ZeRo".

 

[Laken64]

Imo, G1 as a whole shook ZeRo for the rest for the rest of the set. Fatality took it in 46 seconds. I don't think ZeRo's ever been two stocked that fast.


It was said I think either on facebook or in th YT comments, but going for the ditto was the best option ZeRo had. Fatality said he struggles with the ditto, and has lost the ditto to ZeRo, so it was ZeRo's best chance at slowing him down. But this was Fatality with momentum, that made it past T and Nairo at Civil War, and made it past Larry and Salem earlier in the day. Fatality with momentum is like three copies of "Game 5 ZeRo".

Fatality criticized him on doing that because the falcon ditto is basically who gets the momentum/first stock and also said that zero should have stayed Diddy, and I felt that zero would have fared better if he stayed Diddy because when you switch off your main just because you lost game one badly and reach into your pockets instead of staying your main, gathering your composer and adjusting your game plan, it says a lot about your intentions, mostly it being the let me take the so called easy route and expect it to pay off when it obviously shouldn't. Zero could have done the above and adjust and do what he does best, neutral and ledgeguarding which would have been hell for falcon and potentially brought it back but the moment he brought out the secondaries he was finished.

 

[Rizen]

This brings up, how well does Lucina do vs CF? I'd have thought he would switch to her. PS I haven't seen the set yet.

 

[Das Koopa]

Like I said, there are many things I'd change but it's a good jumping off point. My personal recovery rankings are (unordered in tiers):

SS
S

A
(Limit)
B
(Overall assuming good use of both Shield and Jump arts)
C

D
E
F(No Limit)
G
H

Based on if the character is launched offstage, as opposed to upward, their overall ability to recover. This includes distance, how well they can defend themselves, versatility/mixup potential and how dangerous it is to intercept them. Bowser and DK are on the same tier because Bowser has the longer recovery but DK has frame 3 intangibility and disjoint for example.

Edit, gave Bayo her own tier.

agree with this

Lucario at S tier on the original bugged me. It's a deceptively vulnerable recovery between the startup, stage lag, and the fact that disjoints can hurt it. It's far from bad and definitely among one of the better recoveries but it didn't belong with ZSS. It's reliable for recovery in most situations, but absolutely vulnerable.

 

[Lord Dio]

Fatality criticized him on doing that because the falcon ditto is basically who gets the momentum/first stock and also said that zero should have stayed Diddy, and I felt that zero would have fared better if he stayed Diddy because when you switch off your main just because you lost game one badly and reach into your pockets instead of staying your main, gathering your composer and adjusting your game plan, it says a lot about your intentions, mostly it being the let me take the so called easy route and expect it to pay off when it obviously shouldn't. Zero could have done the above and adjust and do what he does best, neutral and ledgeguarding which would have been hell for falcon and potentially brought it back but the moment he brought out the secondaries he was finished.

Yup. On his twitter Fatality he said he said something to ZeRo along the lines of "You can get janked out in the ditto, it's like a coin flip. Go for anyone else".
I do think ZeRo should have stayed Diddy and done what you said, but G1 shook him so much he probably though Sheik would be better. To be fair, I don't think anyone could be in his position after G1 and not be incredibly shaken. It's possible to compose yourself quickly, but ZeRo was thinking and acting scared afterwards.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Okay, why is Mario so low on that recovery list?

 

[The-Technique]

this is probably less relevant to bring up, but Rango's performance this year was lacking compared to his top 8 placing at last year's Momocon, where he went solo Ike. it was unfortunate for him to encounter zero so early in the tournament, but im wondering if their set was one-sided due to the gap in skill level or the characters that Rango used against him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

mario without his jump should be dead, sure, but so is 70% of the cast.
i'd personally put him around B. A wouldn't surprise me all that much, either.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dFXRNiyz7h4
Fun fact: Capt. Levi was the only one to take a game off Leo this Smash Pendiente.

 

[The-Technique]

This brings up, how well does Lucina do vs CF? I'd have thought he would switch to her. PS I haven't seen the set yet.

IMO I see the matchup as even. If Lucina is pressing too many buttons in neutral then Falcon can easily whiff punish with dash attack and dash grab, but at the same time Lucina can wall out Falcon's approaches very hard with her fast disjointed moves. The matchup basically comes down to which player is more patient and quicker to react, since disadvantage and advantage are equally devastating for both characters.

 

[Krysco]

Looking at that recovery list, I can see most characters in C tier and higher doing just fine without their double jump and some below too depending on the circumstance. Most characters don't have a chance if they're in the lower most corner or near the bottom blastzone without their jump but then there's very few ways to get someone there. Though when I think about a lot of these characters coming back, I'm mostly thinking about their physical possibility of actually making it to the stage/ledge and not so much about their opponent intercepting them again since that varies from mu to mu.

 

[Rizen]

Okay, why is Mario so low on that recovery list?

Mario was a character I considered in either tier. Looking at it now, he deserves to be up. It's hard to order every character at once.

 

[Kofu]

Imo, G1 as a whole shook ZeRo for the rest for the rest of the set. Fatality took it in 46 seconds. I don't think ZeRo's ever been two stocked that fast.


It was said I think either on facebook or in th YT comments, but going for the ditto was the best option ZeRo had. Fatality said he struggles with the ditto, and has lost the ditto to ZeRo, so it was ZeRo's best chance at slowing him down. But this was Fatality with momentum, that made it past T and Nairo at Civil War, and made it past Larry and Salem earlier in the day. Fatality with momentum is like three copies of "Game 5 ZeRo".

So Fatality is basically the player version of Falcon?

 

[Bowserboy3]

And on the topic of ZeRo v Fatality, didn't ZeRo sort of just give up in his game as Sheik too? Like he was launched off stage but sort of just waved and didn't bother trying to recover?

That's the first time I've seen ZeRo do something like this. I've always seen him as one who never quits. Sure, it was just one game and he was behind, but we've seen him come from behind before. It just kinda shocked me.

Kinda shows you how shook he was, or how much pressure he was under. I can't help feeling that he probably felt lots of indirect pressure because of his history of calling other Falcon players out/saying he's the best Falcon. To get kicked about by one of (of course Fatality is the best Falcon) the best Faclons in the world must've put a lot of weight on his shoulders, even if his callouts could have been empty jokes.

 

[Nu~]

Well now Zero is on twitter contemplating picking up bayo. Says he's wanted to drop diddy for a long time now.

Perhaps losing G1 to Fatality that badly was the final nail in the coffin of his confidence in diddy kong?

 

[The-Technique]

Well now Zero is on twitter contemplating picking up bayo. Says he's wanted to drop diddy for a long time now.

Perhaps losing G1 to Fatality that badly was the final nail in the coffin of his confidence in diddy kong?

that's.....a bizarre choice to make, to say the least. drop the character that's won you over hundreds upon hundreds of tournaments with almost unwavering consistency?

i wonder what hurt zero harder, losing to nairo or losing to fatality?

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo has been complaining about Diddy for a good amount of time now. From the lack of X-Factor thing and beyond. He *really* doesn't think Diddy is as good as people say.

Playing Diddy at the top level must be stressful.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Well now Zero is on twitter contemplating picking up bayo. Says he's wanted to drop diddy for a long time now.

I wonder if people will still consider Diddy the best character in the game if ZeRo drops him (those that still consider Diddy #1, that is).

It'd be more fun if he decided to main Lucina full-time though. Or someone less common and more fun to watch than Bayonetta, at least.

 

[The-Technique]

ZeRo has been complaining about Diddy for a good amount of time now. From the lack of X-Factor thing and beyond. He *really* doesn't think Diddy is as good as people say.

Playing Diddy at the top level must be stressful.

Can't be nearly as stressful as being the opponent playing against his Diddy, though. I mean I can understand picking up secondaries for certain matchups but dropping Diddy outright? Players have suffered with far less viable characters by comparison, like...Captain Falcon?

 

[Das Koopa]

https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Tourney thread updated! Will manage the PR database over the next day.

 

[FamilyTeam]

This brings up, how well does Lucina do vs CF? I'd have thought he would switch to her. PS I haven't seen the set yet.

Pretty good.

Combos destroy him
Can have difficulty escaping combos in any way other than mashing airdodge, potentially landing on the ground and getting destroyed for that
He can have problems with disjoints
He can have problems with getting juggled
He can have problems with getting off the ledge
His exploitable recovery really gets exposed when he's fighting the swordspeople
Doesn't necessarily need to be edgeguarded to die early anyway

And that's basically it. However Falcon can also combo Marcina pretty well and kill off of his combos so it's not hopeless in the slightest. There's also the fact that Marcina just doesn't do well if they're getting rushed in the face constantly, so if you enter disadvantage against a good Falcon as Marcina it can be hell getting out before you get a lot of damage racked up on you or you just straight up die.
Marcina definitely wins but it's definitely doable for Falcon.
I have discussed ZeRo's odd decision to not go Lucina (atleast for the last game in that set) before, Someone briefly told me that ZeRo's playstyle with Lucina simply wouldn't work against Captain Falcon. Hm... I'd need to discuss it further, because I can see the point.


Now for the real reason I am here:

Oh, and Lucina () has better results than Marth in May (by 0.5 points). That's interesting.

Ain't that a beautiful birthday present for me. First we get 4 Lucinas in the Top 16 of a big tournament, now this.
I'm really happy Lucina's come such a long way. She's probably the character that rose the most out of all of them. Not just in tier list placement, I mean, but in stuff like public opinion. Being a Lucina main now is much different than being one back when I started almost 2 years ago.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Rizen Ok why is Palu THAT low on that list? I mean her warp doesn't have a hitbox yes but it a far safer Recovery than for example Olimar and it has a good distance. I mean do you actually put Zelda on A just because of the hitbox? Her warp has the exactly same problems that Palu has If you hit her the hitbox doesn't mean anything.

On a sidenote: I think Zero will fail pretty hard if he seriously tries Bayo. He would practically sacrifice everything that he's really good at in exchange for "lol i'll try to kill you off the top or carry you to the side blastzone" (expect for camping)

 

[Yonder]

Well now Zero is on twitter contemplating picking up bayo. Says he's wanted to drop diddy for a long time now.

Perhaps losing G1 to Fatality that badly was the final nail in the coffin of his confidence in diddy kong?

"I'll never play Bayonetta" Zero, 2016

I think he's just severely rattled emotionally rn and his basal ganglia is shooting off faster than he can process it.

Maybe he will change characters. But I don't think it would be Bayo.

I personally think Fox would fit his playstyle more.

 

[Laken64]

"I'll never play Bayonetta" Zero, 2016

I think he's just severely rattled emotionally rn and his basal ganglia is shooting off faster than he can process it.

Maybe he will change characters. But I don't think it would be Bayo.

I personally think Fox would fit his playstyle more.

That would be funny considering that Zero did play Fox in the early days

 

[blackghost]

Zero playing bayo would be awful for him. Zero wants to control neutral. bayo doesn't fit his playstyle at all. Someone like mars or even nairo would make more sense
Zero should consider Lucina or maybe actually take shulk seriously as he's wanted to for the entire game.

 

[Lord Dio]

And on the topic of ZeRo v Fatality, didn't ZeRo sort of just give up in his game as Sheik too? Like he was launched off stage but sort of just waved and didn't bother trying to recover?

Yup. Fatality had 119 or so on him with two stocks remaining. A cmeback from something like that, I could see ZeRo doing, but not when he's scared.

Maybe ZeRo just needs to take a break for a week or two? Calm down , get composed, evaluate things?

 

[Routa]

There are very few characters that are all about neutral and have great mobility. Only characters that come to my mind are Sheik, Diddy and Pit. All of these characters lack the "X factor" which Zero wants. Then there is Faptain, but I don't think that is what Zero wants. He will most likely stay as Diddy tbh, but only time will tell.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It'd be more fun if he decided to main Lucina full-time though. Or someone less common and more fun to watch than Bayonetta, at least.

Now I know this is your opinion, but I do think that's a little harsh. I think Bayonetta is fun to watch; but then again, I use Bayonetta, and it's also my opinion against yours.

But what I can kind of say is it would be more fun that seeing multiple Bayonetta players. I like Smash 4 because of it's variety, as do many others, so it would be sad to see another character bite the dust.

---
Anyways, I can only echo what other users here have already said; blackghost , Y Yonder etc.

Bayonetta plays nothing like Diddy. She doesn't control the neutral like he does. It would be like me who in general likes defensive zoners such as Rosalina and Marth, playing quick paced rushdown/combo character like Falcon - it just doesn't sit well with me personally (and part of the reason why I dislike playing as Falcon).

I'm willing to bet this is another "I might drop Smash 4 for Melee" downer situation; remember when he lost a tournament a while back (can't remember which one specifically, may have been Civil War) and said he might play Melee?

He just needs to go away and re-coup a bit. We all have downers and that's acceptable. His Diddy has won him MANY tournaments over the years and it would be silly to see him drop him after all of that.

 

[Zelder]

*3-0's Larry Lurr, Salem, and does a 6-0 monster stomp on Leo at Dreamhack*

"Will no one rid me of this troublesome monkey?!"

 

[Rizen]

Well now Zero is on twitter contemplating picking up bayo. Says he's wanted to drop diddy for a long time now.

Perhaps losing G1 to Fatality that badly was the final nail in the coffin of his confidence in diddy kong?

We'll need an old priest and a young- wait this joke doesn't work.

Rizen Ok why is Palu THAT low on that list? I mean her warp doesn't have a hitbox yes but it a far safer Recovery than for example Olimar and it has a good distance. I mean do you actually put Zelda on A just because of the hitbox? Her warp has the exactly same problems that Palu has If you hit her the hitbox doesn't mean anything.

On a sidenote: I think Zero will fail pretty hard if he seriously tries Bayo. He would practically sacrifice everything that he's really good at in exchange for "lol i'll try to kill you off the top or carry you to the side blastzone" (expect for camping)

TBH I wasn't sure where to put her and she didn't seem as dangerous to intercept as Marcina with their upBs. I can change it.
Zelda has much better recovery, can reflect in the air without much risk, a longer upB that kills at early %s, and is floaty. Try to shoot Zelda with a projectile and you can die at 120%.

 

[|RK|]

I think the main way ZeRo is going to be happy with Diddy would be to make the character broken beyond belief. That is - find guaranteed early spike setups or something. Because it does seem like he really wants that clutch factor, instead of bringing back a game piece by piece.

But this is actually a fun topic, tbh. 6WX was suggesting some characters that would fit ZeRo's playstyle - being able to impose his will on an opponent. I threw out Mewtwo, but 6WX believes that Mewtwo is relatively slow/weak on defense and predictable on offense.

How many characters really have the ability to impose their will on opponents in neutral?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[TDK]

ZeRo already has a Falcon and a Lucina if he really wants to change it up, and both of those characters fit his style well.

 

[Rizen]

If ZeRo developed a good Ryu it would be scary. Not as good as his Diddy but scary nonetheless.
OT, does anyone else find it weird that 'nonetheless' is one word?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I still think Nairo could do utterly amazing things with Bayo since his playstyle is about getting the most of of punishes and conversions which is what Bayo just does. Nario's ability to fish for punish opportunities and take entire stocks of just one opening is likely the best out of any top player right now. Just look at this matches at Momocon to see that.
However, it seems like Nario has no interest in using Bayo in the slightest. I do not think I have even seen him try using her at all , not even just for fun in a non-competitive setting

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Zelda has much better recovery, can reflect in the air without much risk, a longer upB that kills at early %s, and is floaty. Try to shoot Zelda with a projectile and you can die at 120%.

Didn't know you count neutralb has a support for recovering? Well Palu has reflec?
The distance of the warps aren't much different tbh Zelda has a better airspeed tough. The upb from zelda can kill yeah but who the **** is so dumb to get hit with it while YOU try to recover?(i mean me of course but i have a zelda problem) The Hitbox doesn't really mean anything if you don't do a meaty upb it has the same issues that make it unsafe like palus warp and Palus warp is at least faster. Tbh the only really good warp recovery is Sheik.

I don't actually argue that Palus recovery is better but they are ****ing several tiers apart and basically both recoveries do the same things while Zelda has a better airspeed and a hitbox and Palu's is just faster.

 

[Trunks159]

Let's just thank the balance team that there isn't any easy answer for Zero to swap to like Brawl MK, or prepatch Shiek. No matter who he picks, it won't be so simple for him to win.

 

[L9999]

Let's just thank the balance team that there isn't any easy answer for Zero to swap to like Brawl MK, or prepatch Shiek. No matter who he picks, it won't be so simple for him to win.

We should be thankful that he broke the game so hard the devs had to react when they said "this will be the last patch"

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty good.

Combos destroy him
Can have difficulty escaping combos in any way other than mashing airdodge, potentially landing on the ground and getting destroyed for that
He can have problems with disjoints
He can have problems with getting juggled
He can have problems with getting off the ledge
His exploitable recovery really gets exposed when he's fighting the swordspeople
Doesn't necessarily need to be edgeguarded to die early anyway

And that's basically it. However Falcon can also combo Marcina pretty well and kill off of his combos so it's not hopeless in the slightest. There's also the fact that Marcina just doesn't do well if they're getting rushed in the face constantly, so if you enter disadvantage against a good Falcon as Marcina it can be hell getting out before you get a lot of damage racked up on you or you just straight up die.
Marcina definitely wins but it's definitely doable for Falcon.
I have discussed ZeRo's odd decision to not go Lucina (atleast for the last game in that set) before, Someone briefly told me that ZeRo's playstyle with Lucina simply wouldn't work against Captain Falcon. Hm... I'd need to discuss it further, because I can see the point.


Now for the real reason I am here:

Ain't that a beautiful birthday present for me. First we get 4 Lucinas in the Top 16 of a big tournament, now this.
I'm really happy Lucina's come such a long way. She's probably the character that rose the most out of all of them. Not just in tier list placement, I mean, but in stuff like public opinion. Being a Lucina main now is much different than being one back when I started almost 2 years ago.

You mean back 2 years ago when your silly brethren were spouting off nonsense in the Lucina forums about how she is a rushdown character?

Said it before and I will say it again.

The thing that hurt Lucina the most was the fact that her own player base did not understand her and just blatantly ignored EVERYTHING in her toolkit that tells you how she is meant to be used.

 

[FamilyTeam]

You mean back 2 years ago when your silly brethren were spouting off nonsense in the Lucina forums about how she is a rushdown character?

Said it before and I will say it again.

The thing that hurt Lucina the most was the fact that her own player base did not understand her and just blatantly ignored EVERYTHING in her toolkit that tells you how she is meant to be used.

*shrug*
Times change, I guess. That kind of mentality is basically why Marth got a boost way earlier than her, and it basically meant that we have always had to play catchup.
In fact one of the problems I'd end up getting into a lot in the early days (not necessarily here because I wasn't really here much two years ago) basically was in discussions in how she was meant to be played.
To me she was always basically Marth that you could potentially play slightly more agressive (like something you see Nairo and ZeRo doing) and get more lenient and consistent kills.
The kind of people that said she was a rushdown back in those days would play her like a rushdown, get destroyed for attempting such a thing and then blame it on the character, which is also why any realistic character optimism towards her was so rare. Trust me, I know these people.