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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,963
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
edit, ^that MU looks painful for CF.

This is a good time to bring up the recovery ranking thread. It doesn't include the latest DLC but is still accurate enough.

SS
:4pikachu::4sheik::4metaknight::4villager::4greninja:
S
:4zss::4lucario::4gaw::4pacman::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
A
:4wario::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4shulk: (Jump):4dedede:
B
:4kirby::4mewtwo::4peach::4sonic::4fox::4miibrawl:(*112):rosalina::4yoshi::4luigi::4lucas::4wiifit::4ryu:
C
:4megaman::4myfriends::4rob::4miibrawl:(**22):4falco::4bowserjr::4samus::4tlink::4link::4ness::4diddy:
D
:4palutena::4charizard::4bowser::4dk::4lucina::4marth::4miigun::4shulk::4mario::4feroy::4miisword:(**3*)
E
:4robinm::4falcon::4miibrawl:(*11*):4miisword:(*11*/*22*):4duckhunt:
F
:4miibrawl:(**3*):4drmario::4ganondorf:
FF
:4littlemac:

CF's right next to Robin. IMO only F and FF tier truly have bad recoveries. No edge hogging helps poor recoveries a lot.
 
Last edited:

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
edit, ^that MU looks painful for CF.

It's probably just a +1. Pikachu dies pretty early/easily to Falcon's d-throw->b-air and gets outranged and outboxed. It isn't all roses and neutral is far from easy. Falcon's speed makes punishing Quick Attack trivial, too.

The reason that it's in Pikachu's favor is that Falcon actually gives Pikachu a relevant advantage state, something that Pikachu struggles to find against other good characters. Turns out that Pikachu is pretty good when his opponent lets him land KOs at reasonable percents!

one of the few matchups in which I would still use Pikachu over just about anyone else

But it's far from a slaughter if the Falcon plays patiently enough.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800

APRIL DATA:





Changes from March:

Other +0.9%
Diddy Kong +0.4%
Fox +0.3%
Mario +0.3%
Corrin +0.2%
Sheik +0.2%
Mega Man +0.2%
Toon Link +0.2%
Pikachu +0.1%
Donkey Kong +0.1%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%
R.O.B. +0.1%

Bowser = 1%
Shulk = 1%

Bayonetta -0.1%
Peach -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Mewtwo -0.1%
Captain Falcon -0.1%
Olimar -0.2%
Villager -0.2%
Ness -0.2%
Pit -0.2%
Cloud -0.2%
Marth -0.3%
Lucario -0.3%
Ryu -0.3%
Luigi -0.3%
Meta Knight -0.4%
Sonic -0.4%
Rosalina & Luma -0.4%



Cloud: 532.5
Diddy Kong: 519.5
Bayonetta: 509.5
Sheik: 440
Fox: 338.5
Mario: 287.5
Sonic: 286
Zero Suit Samus: 235.5
Rosalina & Luma: 230.5
Mewtwo: 199.5
Marth: 180
Ryu: 169
Meta Knight: 146.5
Captain Falcon: 141.5
Corrin: 117
Luigi: 113.5
Villager: 112.5
Peach: 109.5
Ness: 109.5
Mega Man: 109
Donkey Kong: 106.5
Olimar: 102.5
Greninja: 96.5
Toon Link: 96.5
Pikachu: 92
Lucario: 91.5
Lucina: 82
R.O.B.: 79
Bowser: 64
Shulk: 62.5
Duck Hunt: 59.5
Pit: 59
Robin: 54.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 49
Lucas: 44
Link: 39
Samus: 37.5
Wario: 32
Roy: 30.5
Yoshi: 29
Charizard: 28
Ike: 26.5
Little Mac: 18.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Falco: 15
Pac-Man: 14.5
Palutena: 14.5
Dark Pit: 12
Mii Brawler: 9
Dr. Mario: 7
King Dedede: 3.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Ganondorf: 1

MAY DATA:




Lucas +1.1%
Captain Falcon +1%
Donkey Kong +1%
Greninja +0.9%
Mario +0.9%
Samus +0.8%
Mewtwo +0.7%
Ryu +0.6%
R.O.B. +0.5%
Sonic +0.4%
Bowser +0.4%
Lucina +0.3%
Mega Man +0.3%
Ness +0.2%
Luigi +0.2%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%

Other = 10.5%
Fox -0.1%
Villager -0.1%
Corrin -0.1%
Pikachu -0.1%
Meta Knight -0.1%
Rosalina & Luma -0.2%
Peach -0.5%
Toon Link -0.6%
Olimar -0.6%
Lucario -0.7%
Diddy Kong -1.1%
Marth -1.2%
Sheik -1.6%
Cloud -1.8%

Bayonetta: 133.5
Diddy Kong: 114.5
Cloud: 107.5
Mario: 87
Sheik: 85.5
Fox: 83.5
Sonic: 78.5
Zero Suit Samus: 61.5
Mewtwo: 61
Rosalina & Luma: 54.5
Ryu: 53
Captain Falcon: 52
Donkey Kong: 44.5
Greninja: 38.5
Meta Knight: 35.5
Mega Man: 32.5
Luigi: 32
Ness: 30
Lucas: 28.5
Villager: 28
Corrin: 27
R.O.B.: 27
Lucina: 26.5
Marth: 25.5
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Pikachu: 21
Peach: 19
Olimar: 16
Yoshi: 15.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 14
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 9
Duck Hunt: 9
Robin: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Pit: 6
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
King Dedede: 5
Ike: 4
Wario: 3
Shulk: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
Falco: 1

There's a lot to unpack here. Will post some stuff later, people will analyze it by themselves here, etc.

Bayonetta: 646
Cloud: 640
Diddy Kong: 634
Sheik: 525.5
Fox: 422
Mario: 374.5
Sonic: 364.5
Zero Suit Samus: 297
Rosalina & Luma: 285
Mewtwo: 260.5
Ryu: 222
Marth: 205.5
Captain Falcon: 193.5
Meta Knight: 182
Donkey Kong: 151
Luigi: 145.5
Corrin: 144
Mega Man: 141.5
Villager: 140.5
Ness: 139.5
Greninja: 135
Peach: 128.5
Olimar: 118.5
Pikachu: 113
Toon Link: 111.5
Lucina: 108.5
R.O.B.: 106
Lucario: 102.5
Bowser: 87
Lucas: 72.5
Duck Hunt: 68.5
Shulk: 65.5
Pit: 65
Mr. Game & Watch: 63
Robin: 62.5
Samus: 59.5
Link: 50
Yoshi: 44.5
Roy: 39.5
Charizard: 38.5
Wario: 35
Wii Fit Trainer: 32.5
Ike: 30.5
Pac-Man: 25
Little Mac: 24.5
Palutena: 22
Falco: 16
Dark Pit: 14.5
Mii Brawler: 10
King Dedede: 8.5
Dr. Mario: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Mii Gunner: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Jigglypuff: 0

Combined Results, Phases 1-4 + May:

Diddy Kong: 1854.5
Cloud: 1732.5
Sheik: 1622.5
Bayonetta: 1590.5
Fox: 1292.5
Sonic: 1211
Mario: 1135
Zero Suit Samus: 905
Rosalina & Luma: 865
Mewtwo: 736.5
Ryu: 607
Marth: 583
Meta Knight: 575.5
Captain Falcon: 561
Ness: 491.5
Mega Man: 463
Corrin: 454.4
R.O.B.: 452.5
Greninja: 422
Donkey Kong: 411
Peach: 409.5
Toon Link: 403
Luigi: 381.5
Villager: 367.5
Pikachu: 356
Olimar: 325
Bowser: 313
Lucario: 304
Yoshi: 280
Robin: 227.5
Lucas: 219.5
Pit: 194
Wario: 183
Ike: 170
Mr. Game & Watch: 165
Lucina: 158
Little Mac: 157
Duck Hunt: 148.5
Samus: 142.5
Link: 141.5
Shulk: 130.5
Palutena: 127
Wii Fit Trainer: 107
Pac-Man: 106.5
Charizard: 103.5
Roy: 101
King Dedede: 63
Falco: 50
Kirby: 47.5
Bowser Jr.: 41.5
Mii Brawler: 28
Zelda: 20
Dark Pit: 20
Dr. Mario: 19
Jigglypuff: 19
Ganondorf: 18.5
Mii Gunner: 7
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.445990/page-52#post-21722759

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

May tournaments:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4metaknight:
2nd: KEN :4sonic:
3rd: Choco :4zss:
4th: 9B :4bayonetta:
5th: Nietono :4sheik:
5th: Kirihara :rosalina:
7th: Kameme :4sheik::4megaman:, :4yoshi:
7th: takera :4ryu:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:,:4sonic:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Pichi :4falcon:
9th: Edge :4diddy:,:4sheik:
13th: Rizeasu :4marth:,:4bowser:
13th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: T :4link:
13th: Chanshu :4ryu:
17th: FILIP :4mario:
17th: Gungnir :4ganondorf:
17th: Kisha :4bowser:
17th: Paru :4bowser:
17th: Raito :4duckhunt:
17th: Jan :rosalina:
17th: Repo :4megaman:
17th: Eim :4sheik:
25th: Masha :4metaknight:
25th: Sukekokko :4greninja:
25th: HIKARU :4dk:
25th: Jill :4fox:
25th: Tosshi :4charizard:
25th: KaPMK :4metaknight:
25th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
25th: Lea :4greninja:

1st: WaDi :4mewtwo:
2nd: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:, :4wiifit:
3rd: DarkShad :4ryu:
4th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:
5th: 6WX :4sonic:
5th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
7th: ZD :4fox:
7th: Ling Ling :4peach:
9th: Remzi :4zss:
9th: Craftis :4sonic:
9th: Pugwest :4marth:
9th: JeBB :4lucas:
13th: Promaelia :4corrinf:
13th: UtopianRay :rosalina:
13th: Tension :4fox:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4marth::4sonic:
4th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Ginko :4pacman:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: ikep :4bayonetta:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Koolaid :4sheik:
4th: Tony Pajamas :4ness:
5th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Kogarasuma :4lucina:
7th: Tsage :4link:
7th: Kuma :4sonic:

1st: Regi Shikimi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Simi :4ness:
7th: Ez :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo::4samus:
2nd: Dath :4robinf:
3rd: Myran :4olimar:
4th: Wormynugget :4diddy:, :4fox:
5th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
5th: MuteAce :4peach:
7th: Blank :4sheik:
7th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: iStudying :4greninja:
2nd: Antireflex :4rob:, :4diddy:
3rd: Badr :4bayonetta:
4th: Space :4corrinf:
5th: S1 :4ness:
5th: Tatuman :rosalina:
7th: Gregs :4sheik:
7th: Patrick :4ryu:

1st: Fatality :4falcon:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Scot! :4luigi:
4th: Omega Tyrant :4rob:, :4charizard:

1st: Day :4lucario:
2nd: LOE1 :4luigi:
3rd: Nom :4sheik:
4th: Ozone :4duckhunt:

1st: Mungmi :4dedede:
2nd: LegoKirby :4lucas:
3rd: Flygoon :4yoshi:
4th: LIL DJ 25 :4greninja:

1st: GrimTurtle :4bayonetta:
2nd: Papa Wall :4yoshi:
3rd: ThisGuy :4fox:
4th: Red9 :4cloud2:

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
2nd: Mr. R :4sheik:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk::4bayonetta:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:, :4fox:
5th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
5th: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
7th: WaDi :4mewtwo:
7th: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
9th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:, :4lucina:
9th: IcyMist :4samus:
9th: Frozen :4corrinf:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
13th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
13th: Sandstorm :4ryu:
13th: ANTi :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Zoan :4mewtwo:

1st: Extra :4gaw:
2nd: Ghost :4bayonetta:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:, :4ness:
4th: Aha :4tlink:
5th: Waveguider :4greninja:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Swithi :4cloud2:
7th: Jezmo :4diddy:
9th: Con :4fox:
9th: Poppt1 :4ness:
9th: Ignis :4robinf:
9th: Jdizzle :4tlink:
13th: Eternal :4sheik:, :4fox:
13th: MM :4miibrawl:, :4palutena:
13th: haiku :4bayonetta:
13th: Dr. Ainuss :4fox:

1st: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
2nd: DarkShad :4ryu:
3rd: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
4th: Benson Obama :4mario:
5th: Celja :4mario:
5th: Sells :4bayonetta:
7th: Hive :4palutena:
7th: Butter :4luigi:

1st: Mistake :4bayonetta:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2::4diddy:
3rd: LetsTickle :4corrinf:
4th: Chrim Foish :4diddy:
5th: FALGOD :4ryu:
5th: Yoh :4sheik:, :4diddy:
7th: iModerz :4fox:
7th: nanaba :4diddy:

1st: Locke :4megaman:
2nd: Braixen :4diddy:, :4fox:
3rd: SilentRain :4mario:
4th: Justice :4myfriends:
5th: Viviff T. Great, MBA :4bowser:, :4mario:
5th: TrueMain :4sonic:
7th: Ruff :4mario:, :4samus:
7th: Mace :4fox:

1st: LinkEa :4link:
2nd: Keen :4fox:, :4dk:
3rd: Rollo :4mario:, :4tlink:
4th: Spyro :4yoshi:

1st: Xeon :4yoshi:
2nd: Headshot :4samus:
3rd: EKING :4mario:
4th: DaPiG :4corrinf:

1st: Dyr :4diddy:
2nd: DOOM! :rosalina:
3rd: Ross :4tlink:
4th: Tachyon :4pikachu:

1st: Mew^2 :4mewtwo:
2nd: Chuck Nasty :4charizard:
3rd: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
4th: Hyrule Hero :4link:

1st: Manny :4sonic:
2nd: Cashmere :4falcon:
3rd: Rival :4ryu:
4th: Schmooey :4bayonetta:

1st: Konga :4dk:
2nd: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
3rd: Captain L :4pikachu:
4th: Locus :4ryu:

1st: Fire :4charizard:
2nd: Griffith :4bayonetta:
3rd: Nin’ :4diddy:
4th: Pur Gars :4lucario:

1st: Nameless :4diddy:
2nd: Sinnyboo242 :4sheik:
3rd: Shinjoebi :4greninja:
4th: Skorpio :4robinf:

1st: Ally :4mario:
2nd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4lucina::4sonic:
4th: ANTi :4mario:,:4zss:
5th: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk:
5th: falln :rosalina:
7th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Mr. R :4sheik:
9th: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
9th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4dk::4lucina:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Edge :4diddy:
13th: Tyrant :4metaknight:
13th: Elegant :4luigi:
17th: Phoenix :4sonic:
17th: Some :4greninja:
17th: Oisiitofu :4greninja:
17th: Ac :4metaknight:, :4marth:
17th: Nairo :4zss:
17th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
17th: Ranai :4villager:
17th: TLTC :4palutena:
25th: Eon :4fox:
25th: VoiD :4sheik:
25th: Samsora :4peach:
25th: ImHip :4olimar:
25th: Soulimar :4olimar:
25th: Elexiao :4greninja:
25th: Mekos:4lucas:
25th: Donquavious :4greninja:

1st: ScAtt :4megaman:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: HyperKirby :4feroy:
4th: Salt One :4falcon:
5th: KDK :4dk:
5th: Tortas FC :4mewtwo:
7th: Player-1 :4diddy:
7th: Harlock :4sheik:

1st: Ryuga :4corrinf:, :4bowser:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: LingLing :4peach:
4th: Mystearica :4bayonetta:
5th: DeuS :4dk:
5th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
7th: Krow :4olimar:, :4dk:
7th: Percy :4mario:, :4cloud2:

1st: Cashmere :4falcon:
2nd: 8BitMan :4rob:,:4diddy:
3rd: saj :4bayonetta:
4th: Manny :4sonic:
5th: Day :4lucario:
5th: Ryo :4corrinf:, :4feroy::4myfriends:
7th: 3Fresh Lade :4cloud2:
7th: Dyr :4diddy:

1st: John Numbers :4wiifit:
2nd: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
3rd: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
4th: dekillsage :4fox:

1st: Crisis :4luigi:
2nd: GOHAN :4cloud2:, :4mario::4samus:
3rd: Rude :4bayonetta:
4th: Vermillion :4dk:, :4cloud2::4bowser:

1st: Wonf :4bayonetta:, :4sonic:
2nd: Rox :4metaknight:, :4sheik:
3rd: Terry :4pacman:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Ang :4tlink:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: Taisa :4sheik:
3rd: Ashley :4ness:
4th: James :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:
2nd: MVD :4diddy:
3rd: LoNg0uw :4rob:
4th: S1 :4ness:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:

[
1st: Child :4bayonetta:
2nd: MuteAce :4peach:
3rd: DJ Jack :4ryu:
4th: Kai :4sheik:, :4sonic::4fox:

1st: J.Miller :4luigi:
2nd: Willz :4falcon:
3rd: Magi :4mario:
4th: SBF :4mario:, :4diddy:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: quiK :4zss:
2nd: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
3rd: Wusi :4fox:
4th: Deus :4falco:

1st: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic::4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight::4bayonetta::rosalina:
3rd: Elegant :4luigi:
4th: Nicko :4shulk:
5th: Ranai :4villager:, :4lucina:
5th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Aarvark :4villager:
7th: Edge :4diddy:

1st: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4falcon:
4th: Larry Lurr :4fox:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Kameme :4megaman:, :4sheik:
7th: Ally :4mario:
7th: Salem :4bayonetta:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
9th: Wrath :4sonic:
9th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: Myran :4olimar:
13th: Lazyboredom :4littlemac:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:
13th: RFang :4mario:
17th: Day :4lucario:
17th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4ness:
17th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
17th: Mr. Speedman :4sonic:
17th: RoguePenguin :4mario:
17th: HyperKirby :4feroy:
17th: Sinji :4pacman:
17th: saj :4bayonetta:
25th: DRAKEML :4pacman:
25th: ScAtt :4megaman:
25th: LordMix :4bowser:
25th: KidG :4mario:
25th: KDK :4dk:
25th: Salt One :4cloud2:, :4falcon:
25th: TheReflexWonder :4wario:
25th: Rango :4cloud2:

1st: falln :rosalina:
2nd: Konga :4dk:
3rd: Locus :4ryu:
4th: Elegant :4luigi:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
5th: Pyreeze :4samus:
7th: Captain L :4pikachu:
7th: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
9th: Locke :4megaman:
9th: Braixen :4diddy:
9th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
9th: Fuzzio :4yoshi:
13th: FedVsRafa :4luigi:
13th: 9Tails :rosalina:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Girthquake :4dedede:

1st: ESAM :4samus:
2nd: John Numbers :4wiifit:
3rd: Ned :4cloud2:
4th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
5th: MVD :4diddy:
5th: 8BitMan :4rob:
7th: dekillsage :4fox:
7th: Dill :4diddy:
9th: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
9th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Walrus :4bayonetta:
13th: xane :4sheik:
13th: StarbasedFruit :4luigi:
13th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
13th: Kenta :4fox:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Lingling :4peach:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Pelca :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
5th: Koolaid :4sheik:
7th: Scot! :4diddy:
7th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
2nd: Nero :4pikachu:
3rd: Ozone :4duckhunt:
4th: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
5th: Miloni :4cloud2:
5th: LOE1 :4luigi:, :4diddy:
7th: Astraea :4samus:
7th: Midnight :rosalina:, :4greninja:

*1st/2nd tied after Ray reset bracket. Treated as winner.

1st: Zenyou :4mario:
2nd: Lima :4bayonetta:
3rd: JaySon :4fox:
4th: Karna :4sheik:, :4bayonetta:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: VaLoR :4sonic:
3rd: Lada :4rob:
4th: BANG! :4diddy:

1st: Jtails :4diddy:
2nd: Ant :4villager:
3rd: Coasty :4diddy:
4th: Erk :4lucas:

1st: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2:
3rd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
4th: Fwed :4fox:

1st: Ito :4metaknight:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Ac :4metaknight:
4th: IC :4diddy:

1st: Nao :4mario:, :4ganondorf:
2nd: Marcos :4bayonetta:, :4falcon:
3rd: Obarin :4palutena:
4th: Hakadama :4lucas:, :4samus:
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
edit, ^that MU looks painful for CF.

This is a good time to bring up the recovery ranking thread. It doesn't include the latest DLC but is still accurate enough.

SS
:4pikachu::4sheik::4metaknight::4villager::4greninja:
S
:4zss::4lucario::4gaw::4pacman::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
A
:4wario::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4shulk: (Jump):4dedede:
B
:4kirby::4mewtwo::4peach::4sonic::4fox::4miibrawl:(*112):rosalina::4yoshi::4luigi::4lucas::4wiifit::4ryu:
C
:4megaman::4myfriends::4rob::4miibrawl:(**22):4falco::4bowserjr::4samus::4tlink::4link::4ness::4diddy:
D
:4palutena::4charizard::4bowser::4dk::4lucina::4marth::4miigun::4shulk::4mario::4feroy::4miisword:(**3*)
E
:4robinm::4falcon::4miibrawl:(*11*):4miisword:(*11*/*22*):4duckhunt:
F
:4miibrawl:(**3*):4drmario::4ganondorf:
FF
:4littlemac:

CF's right next to Robin. IMO only F and FF tier truly have bad recoveries. No edge hogging helps poor recoveries a lot.
What are these rankings based on? Mewtwo and Mario seem too low at a glance. Fox is too high.
 

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
With all of this talk about edgeguarding I was wondering, who do you think has the edgeguarding tools to edgeguard other characters for free and which can easily get out of edgeguarding situations?
I know my zard's flamethrower is good as edgeguarding essentially anyone for free safely but there are characters with better tools. Diddy can use his bananas and bair easily. Marth makes getting knocked offstage a dangerous preposition. Who else edgeguards well?
Sorry for putting this back up there but i'm genuinely curious. I hear edgeguarding is underdeveloped and it isn't as relevant in smash4 as it is in certain other entries but still who does it well and when is it bad to do so?
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN

APRIL DATA:





Changes from March:

Other +0.9%
Diddy Kong +0.4%
Fox +0.3%
Mario +0.3%
Corrin +0.2%
Sheik +0.2%
Mega Man +0.2%
Toon Link +0.2%
Pikachu +0.1%
Donkey Kong +0.1%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%
R.O.B. +0.1%

Bowser = 1%
Shulk = 1%

Bayonetta -0.1%
Peach -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Mewtwo -0.1%
Captain Falcon -0.1%
Olimar -0.2%
Villager -0.2%
Ness -0.2%
Pit -0.2%
Cloud -0.2%
Marth -0.3%
Lucario -0.3%
Ryu -0.3%
Luigi -0.3%
Meta Knight -0.4%
Sonic -0.4%
Rosalina & Luma -0.4%



Cloud: 532.5
Diddy Kong: 519.5
Bayonetta: 509.5
Sheik: 440
Fox: 338.5
Mario: 287.5
Sonic: 286
Zero Suit Samus: 235.5
Rosalina & Luma: 230.5
Mewtwo: 199.5
Marth: 180
Ryu: 169
Meta Knight: 146.5
Captain Falcon: 141.5
Corrin: 117
Luigi: 113.5
Villager: 112.5
Peach: 109.5
Ness: 109.5
Mega Man: 109
Donkey Kong: 106.5
Olimar: 102.5
Greninja: 96.5
Toon Link: 96.5
Pikachu: 92
Lucario: 91.5
Lucina: 82
R.O.B.: 79
Bowser: 64
Shulk: 62.5
Duck Hunt: 59.5
Pit: 59
Robin: 54.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 49
Lucas: 44
Link: 39
Samus: 37.5
Wario: 32
Roy: 30.5
Yoshi: 29
Charizard: 28
Ike: 26.5
Little Mac: 18.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Falco: 15
Pac-Man: 14.5
Palutena: 14.5
Dark Pit: 12
Mii Brawler: 9
Dr. Mario: 7
King Dedede: 3.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Ganondorf: 1

MAY DATA:




Lucas +1.1%
Captain Falcon +1%
Donkey Kong +1%
Greninja +0.9%
Mario +0.9%
Samus +0.8%
Mewtwo +0.7%
Ryu +0.6%
R.O.B. +0.5%
Sonic +0.4%
Bowser +0.4%
Lucina +0.3%
Mega Man +0.3%
Ness +0.2%
Luigi +0.2%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%

Other = 10.5%
Fox -0.1%
Villager -0.1%
Corrin -0.1%
Pikachu -0.1%
Meta Knight -0.1%
Rosalina & Luma -0.2%
Peach -0.5%
Toon Link -0.6%
Olimar -0.6%
Lucario -0.7%
Diddy Kong -1.1%
Marth -1.2%
Sheik -1.6%
Cloud -1.8%

Bayonetta: 133.5
Diddy Kong: 114.5
Cloud: 107.5
Mario: 87
Sheik: 85.5
Fox: 83.5
Sonic: 78.5
Zero Suit Samus: 61.5
Mewtwo: 61
Rosalina & Luma: 54.5
Ryu: 53
Captain Falcon: 52
Donkey Kong: 44.5
Greninja: 38.5
Meta Knight: 35.5
Mega Man: 32.5
Luigi: 32
Ness: 30
Lucas: 28.5
Villager: 28
Corrin: 27
R.O.B.: 27
Lucina: 26.5
Marth: 25.5
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Pikachu: 21
Peach: 19
Olimar: 16
Yoshi: 15.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 14
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 9
Duck Hunt: 9
Robin: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Pit: 6
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
King Dedede: 5
Ike: 4
Wario: 3
Shulk: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
Falco: 1

There's a lot to unpack here. Will post some stuff later, people will analyze it by themselves here, etc.

Bayonetta: 646
Cloud: 640
Diddy Kong: 634
Sheik: 525.5
Fox: 422
Mario: 374.5
Sonic: 364.5
Zero Suit Samus: 297
Rosalina & Luma: 285
Mewtwo: 260.5
Ryu: 222
Marth: 205.5
Captain Falcon: 193.5
Meta Knight: 182
Donkey Kong: 151
Luigi: 145.5
Corrin: 144
Mega Man: 141.5
Villager: 140.5
Ness: 139.5
Greninja: 135
Peach: 128.5
Olimar: 118.5
Pikachu: 113
Toon Link: 111.5
Lucina: 108.5
R.O.B.: 106
Lucario: 102.5
Bowser: 87
Lucas: 72.5
Duck Hunt: 68.5
Shulk: 65.5
Pit: 65
Mr. Game & Watch: 63
Robin: 62.5
Samus: 59.5
Link: 50
Yoshi: 44.5
Roy: 39.5
Charizard: 38.5
Wario: 35
Wii Fit Trainer: 32.5
Ike: 30.5
Pac-Man: 25
Little Mac: 24.5
Palutena: 22
Falco: 16
Dark Pit: 14.5
Mii Brawler: 10
King Dedede: 8.5
Dr. Mario: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Mii Gunner: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Jigglypuff: 0

Combined Results, Phases 1-4 + May:

Diddy Kong: 1854.5
Cloud: 1732.5
Sheik: 1622.5
Bayonetta: 1590.5
Fox: 1292.5
Sonic: 1211
Mario: 1135
Zero Suit Samus: 905
Rosalina & Luma: 865
Mewtwo: 736.5
Ryu: 607
Marth: 583
Meta Knight: 575.5
Captain Falcon: 561
Ness: 491.5
Mega Man: 463
Corrin: 454.4
R.O.B.: 452.5
Greninja: 422
Donkey Kong: 411
Peach: 409.5
Toon Link: 403
Luigi: 381.5
Villager: 367.5
Pikachu: 356
Olimar: 325
Bowser: 313
Lucario: 304
Yoshi: 280
Robin: 227.5
Lucas: 219.5
Pit: 194
Wario: 183
Ike: 170
Mr. Game & Watch: 165
Lucina: 158
Little Mac: 157
Duck Hunt: 148.5
Samus: 142.5
Link: 141.5
Shulk: 130.5
Palutena: 127
Wii Fit Trainer: 107
Pac-Man: 106.5
Charizard: 103.5
Roy: 101
King Dedede: 63
Falco: 50
Kirby: 47.5
Bowser Jr.: 41.5
Mii Brawler: 28
Zelda: 20
Dark Pit: 20
Dr. Mario: 19
Jigglypuff: 19
Ganondorf: 18.5
Mii Gunner: 7
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.445990/page-52#post-21722759

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

May tournaments:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4metaknight:
2nd: KEN :4sonic:
3rd: Choco :4zss:
4th: 9B :4bayonetta:
5th: Nietono :4sheik:
5th: Kirihara :rosalina:
7th: Kameme :4sheik::4megaman:, :4yoshi:
7th: takera :4ryu:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:,:4sonic:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Pichi :4falcon:
9th: Edge :4diddy:,:4sheik:
13th: Rizeasu :4marth:,:4bowser:
13th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: T :4link:
13th: Chanshu :4ryu:
17th: FILIP :4mario:
17th: Gungnir :4ganondorf:
17th: Kisha :4bowser:
17th: Paru :4bowser:
17th: Raito :4duckhunt:
17th: Jan :rosalina:
17th: Repo :4megaman:
17th: Eim :4sheik:
25th: Masha :4metaknight:
25th: Sukekokko :4greninja:
25th: HIKARU :4dk:
25th: Jill :4fox:
25th: Tosshi :4charizard:
25th: KaPMK :4metaknight:
25th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
25th: Lea :4greninja:

1st: WaDi :4mewtwo:
2nd: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:, :4wiifit:
3rd: DarkShad :4ryu:
4th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:
5th: 6WX :4sonic:
5th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
7th: ZD :4fox:
7th: Ling Ling :4peach:
9th: Remzi :4zss:
9th: Craftis :4sonic:
9th: Pugwest :4marth:
9th: JeBB :4lucas:
13th: Promaelia :4corrinf:
13th: UtopianRay :rosalina:
13th: Tension :4fox:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4marth::4sonic:
4th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Ginko :4pacman:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: ikep :4bayonetta:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Koolaid :4sheik:
4th: Tony Pajamas :4ness:
5th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Kogarasuma :4lucina:
7th: Tsage :4link:
7th: Kuma :4sonic:

1st: Regi Shikimi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Simi :4ness:
7th: Ez :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo::4samus:
2nd: Dath :4robinf:
3rd: Myran :4olimar:
4th: Wormynugget :4diddy:, :4fox:
5th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
5th: MuteAce :4peach:
7th: Blank :4sheik:
7th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: iStudying :4greninja:
2nd: Antireflex :4rob:, :4diddy:
3rd: Badr :4bayonetta:
4th: Space :4corrinf:
5th: S1 :4ness:
5th: Tatuman :rosalina:
7th: Gregs :4sheik:
7th: Patrick :4ryu:

1st: Fatality :4falcon:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Scot! :4luigi:
4th: Omega Tyrant :4rob:, :4charizard:

1st: Day :4lucario:
2nd: LOE1 :4luigi:
3rd: Nom :4sheik:
4th: Ozone :4duckhunt:

1st: Mungmi :4dedede:
2nd: LegoKirby :4lucas:
3rd: Flygoon :4yoshi:
4th: LIL DJ 25 :4greninja:

1st: GrimTurtle :4bayonetta:
2nd: Papa Wall :4yoshi:
3rd: ThisGuy :4fox:
4th: Red9 :4cloud2:

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
2nd: Mr. R :4sheik:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk::4bayonetta:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:, :4fox:
5th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
5th: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
7th: WaDi :4mewtwo:
7th: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
9th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:, :4lucina:
9th: IcyMist :4samus:
9th: Frozen :4corrinf:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
13th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
13th: Sandstorm :4ryu:
13th: ANTi :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Zoan :4mewtwo:

1st: Extra :4gaw:
2nd: Ghost :4bayonetta:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:, :4ness:
4th: Aha :4tlink:
5th: Waveguider :4greninja:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Swithi :4cloud2:
7th: Jezmo :4diddy:
9th: Con :4fox:
9th: Poppt1 :4ness:
9th: Ignis :4robinf:
9th: Jdizzle :4tlink:
13th: Eternal :4sheik:, :4fox:
13th: MM :4miibrawl:, :4palutena:
13th: haiku :4bayonetta:
13th: Dr. Ainuss :4fox:

1st: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
2nd: DarkShad :4ryu:
3rd: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
4th: Benson Obama :4mario:
5th: Celja :4mario:
5th: Sells :4bayonetta:
7th: Hive :4palutena:
7th: Butter :4luigi:

1st: Mistake :4bayonetta:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2::4diddy:
3rd: LetsTickle :4corrinf:
4th: Chrim Foish :4diddy:
5th: FALGOD :4ryu:
5th: Yoh :4sheik:, :4diddy:
7th: iModerz :4fox:
7th: nanaba :4diddy:

1st: Locke :4megaman:
2nd: Braixen :4diddy:, :4fox:
3rd: SilentRain :4mario:
4th: Justice :4myfriends:
5th: Viviff T. Great, MBA :4bowser:, :4mario:
5th: TrueMain :4sonic:
7th: Ruff :4mario:, :4samus:
7th: Mace :4fox:

1st: LinkEa :4link:
2nd: Keen :4fox:, :4dk:
3rd: Rollo :4mario:, :4tlink:
4th: Spyro :4yoshi:

1st: Xeon :4yoshi:
2nd: Headshot :4samus:
3rd: EKING :4mario:
4th: DaPiG :4corrinf:

1st: Dyr :4diddy:
2nd: DOOM! :rosalina:
3rd: Ross :4tlink:
4th: Tachyon :4pikachu:

1st: Mew^2 :4mewtwo:
2nd: Chuck Nasty :4charizard:
3rd: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
4th: Hyrule Hero :4link:

1st: Manny :4sonic:
2nd: Cashmere :4falcon:
3rd: Rival :4ryu:
4th: Schmooey :4bayonetta:

1st: Konga :4dk:
2nd: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
3rd: Captain L :4pikachu:
4th: Locus :4ryu:

1st: Fire :4charizard:
2nd: Griffith :4bayonetta:
3rd: Nin’ :4diddy:
4th: Pur Gars :4lucario:

1st: Nameless :4diddy:
2nd: Sinnyboo242 :4sheik:
3rd: Shinjoebi :4greninja:
4th: Skorpio :4robinf:

1st: Ally :4mario:
2nd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4lucina::4sonic:
4th: ANTi :4mario:,:4zss:
5th: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk:
5th: falln :rosalina:
7th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Mr. R :4sheik:
9th: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
9th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4dk::4lucina:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Edge :4diddy:
13th: Tyrant :4metaknight:
13th: Elegant :4luigi:
17th: Phoenix :4sonic:
17th: Some :4greninja:
17th: Oisiitofu :4greninja:
17th: Ac :4metaknight:, :4marth:
17th: Nairo :4zss:
17th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
17th: Ranai :4villager:
17th: TLTC :4palutena:
25th: Eon :4fox:
25th: VoiD :4sheik:
25th: Samsora :4peach:
25th: ImHip :4olimar:
25th: Soulimar :4olimar:
25th: Elexiao :4greninja:
25th: Mekos:4lucas:
25th: Donquavious :4greninja:

1st: ScAtt :4megaman:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: HyperKirby :4feroy:
4th: Salt One :4falcon:
5th: KDK :4dk:
5th: Tortas FC :4mewtwo:
7th: Player-1 :4diddy:
7th: Harlock :4sheik:

1st: Ryuga :4corrinf:, :4bowser:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: LingLing :4peach:
4th: Mystearica :4bayonetta:
5th: DeuS :4dk:
5th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
7th: Krow :4olimar:, :4dk:
7th: Percy :4mario:, :4cloud2:

1st: Cashmere :4falcon:
2nd: 8BitMan :4rob:,:4diddy:
3rd: saj :4bayonetta:
4th: Manny :4sonic:
5th: Day :4lucario:
5th: Ryo :4corrinf:, :4feroy::4myfriends:
7th: 3Fresh Lade :4cloud2:
7th: Dyr :4diddy:

1st: John Numbers :4wiifit:
2nd: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
3rd: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
4th: dekillsage :4fox:

1st: Crisis :4luigi:
2nd: GOHAN :4cloud2:, :4mario::4samus:
3rd: Rude :4bayonetta:
4th: Vermillion :4dk:, :4cloud2::4bowser:

1st: Wonf :4bayonetta:, :4sonic:
2nd: Rox :4metaknight:, :4sheik:
3rd: Terry :4pacman:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Ang :4tlink:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: Taisa :4sheik:
3rd: Ashley :4ness:
4th: James :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:
2nd: MVD :4diddy:
3rd: LoNg0uw :4rob:
4th: S1 :4ness:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:

[
1st: Child :4bayonetta:
2nd: MuteAce :4peach:
3rd: DJ Jack :4ryu:
4th: Kai :4sheik:, :4sonic::4fox:

1st: J.Miller :4luigi:
2nd: Willz :4falcon:
3rd: Magi :4mario:
4th: SBF :4mario:, :4diddy:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: quiK :4zss:
2nd: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
3rd: Wusi :4fox:
4th: Deus :4falco:

1st: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic::4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight::4bayonetta::rosalina:
3rd: Elegant :4luigi:
4th: Nicko :4shulk:
5th: Ranai :4villager:, :4lucina:
5th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Aarvark :4villager:
7th: Edge :4diddy:

1st: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4falcon:
4th: Larry Lurr :4fox:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Kameme :4megaman:, :4sheik:
7th: Ally :4mario:
7th: Salem :4bayonetta:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
9th: Wrath :4sonic:
9th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: Myran :4olimar:
13th: Lazyboredom :4littlemac:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:
13th: RFang :4mario:
17th: Day :4lucario:
17th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4ness:
17th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
17th: Mr. Speedman :4sonic:
17th: RoguePenguin :4mario:
17th: HyperKirby :4feroy:
17th: Sinji :4pacman:
17th: saj :4bayonetta:
25th: DRAKEML :4pacman:
25th: ScAtt :4megaman:
25th: LordMix :4bowser:
25th: KidG :4mario:
25th: KDK :4dk:
25th: Salt One :4cloud2:, :4falcon:
25th: TheReflexWonder :4wario:
25th: Rango :4cloud2:

1st: falln :rosalina:
2nd: Konga :4dk:
3rd: Locus :4ryu:
4th: Elegant :4luigi:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
5th: Pyreeze :4samus:
7th: Captain L :4pikachu:
7th: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
9th: Locke :4megaman:
9th: Braixen :4diddy:
9th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
9th: Fuzzio :4yoshi:
13th: FedVsRafa :4luigi:
13th: 9Tails :rosalina:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Girthquake :4dedede:

1st: ESAM :4samus:
2nd: John Numbers :4wiifit:
3rd: Ned :4cloud2:
4th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
5th: MVD :4diddy:
5th: 8BitMan :4rob:
7th: dekillsage :4fox:
7th: Dill :4diddy:
9th: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
9th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Walrus :4bayonetta:
13th: xane :4sheik:
13th: StarbasedFruit :4luigi:
13th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
13th: Kenta :4fox:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Lingling :4peach:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Pelca :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
5th: Koolaid :4sheik:
7th: Scot! :4diddy:
7th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
2nd: Nero :4pikachu:
3rd: Ozone :4duckhunt:
4th: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
5th: Miloni :4cloud2:
5th: LOE1 :4luigi:, :4diddy:
7th: Astraea :4samus:
7th: Midnight :rosalina:, :4greninja:

*1st/2nd tied after Ray reset bracket. Treated as winner.

1st: Zenyou :4mario:
2nd: Lima :4bayonetta:
3rd: JaySon :4fox:
4th: Karna :4sheik:, :4bayonetta:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: VaLoR :4sonic:
3rd: Lada :4rob:
4th: BANG! :4diddy:

1st: Jtails :4diddy:
2nd: Ant :4villager:
3rd: Coasty :4diddy:
4th: Erk :4lucas:

1st: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2:
3rd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
4th: Fwed :4fox:

1st: Ito :4metaknight:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Ac :4metaknight:
4th: IC :4diddy:

1st: Nao :4mario:, :4ganondorf:
2nd: Marcos :4bayonetta:, :4falcon:
3rd: Obarin :4palutena:
4th: Hakadama :4lucas:, :4samus:
Never thought I'd see the day where Sheik dropped out of the top 4 and Falcon's results matched top tier. Interesting.

Mega Smash Mondays 99 (85 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Nicko :4shulk:
2nd: Elegant :4luigi:
3rd: Ghost :4fox:
4th: S2H :4metaknight:
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
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Messages
613
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Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
edit, ^that MU looks painful for CF.

This is a good time to bring up the recovery ranking thread. It doesn't include the latest DLC but is still accurate enough.

SS
:4pikachu::4sheik::4metaknight::4villager::4greninja:
S
:4zss::4lucario::4gaw::4pacman::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
A
:4wario::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4shulk: (Jump):4dedede:
B
:4kirby::4mewtwo::4peach::4sonic::4fox::4miibrawl:(*112):rosalina::4yoshi::4luigi::4lucas::4wiifit::4ryu:
C
:4megaman::4myfriends::4rob::4miibrawl:(**22):4falco::4bowserjr::4samus::4tlink::4link::4ness::4diddy:
D
:4palutena::4charizard::4bowser::4dk::4lucina::4marth::4miigun::4shulk::4mario::4feroy::4miisword:(**3*)
E
:4robinm::4falcon::4miibrawl:(*11*):4miisword:(*11*/*22*):4duckhunt:
F
:4miibrawl:(**3*):4drmario::4ganondorf:
FF
:4littlemac:

CF's right next to Robin. IMO only F and FF tier truly have bad recoveries. No edge hogging helps poor recoveries a lot.
Ike in C tier

Marth/Lucina in D tier

someone please elaborate
 
Last edited:

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
brief note: I know the South Korean tourney only had 12 entrants but as with most of those samples I just try to occasionally use unknown/obscure regions via sampling. With Tanark making 97th at Umebura I thought it was worth doing once, but you won't see any other tournies with that low an entrant count unless it's the whole "Obscure region sampling" thing I occasionally do, and I usually only do it if PRs from that region are attending.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
Ike in C tier

Marth/Lucina in D tier

someone please elaborate
From what I can tell, Marth/Lucina's were initially put around B, but then were progressively moved down due to being "easy to gimp" and having a poor recovery range. Ike, meanwhile, has multiple recovery moves, with Aether being "too good" as a recovery. Note that most of this was because of one guy arguing that Marth/Lucina's is bad and Ike's is good, which is why these kind of things shouldn't be taken at face value; especially ones that are from almost two years ago.
TL;DR this thing is old, things have changed.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
373
Location
Playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild for eternity.
Tbh, I feel as though Falcon's really only horrible match up is Sheik. Pikachu and Bayonetta don't have a neutral like Sheik does that makes up for dying early, plus Vanish is just a better move in disadvantage than Quick Attack or ABK which are much easier to punish.
When Falcon isn't getting trapped at the ledge, Fox is easily manageable. I don't think Mario is difficult at all either.
Fox, Mario, Bayo, and Pikachu all have areas where they can really hurt Falcon but not enough that Falcon doesn't have an answer back or be able to hurt them just as much, but Sheik just limits everything.
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
NNID
EquinoXYZ
It's probably just a +1. Pikachu dies pretty early/easily to Falcon's d-throw->b-air and gets outranged and outboxed. It isn't all roses and neutral is far from easy. Falcon's speed makes punishing Quick Attack trivial, too.

The reason that it's in Pikachu's favor is that Falcon actually gives Pikachu a relevant advantage state, something that Pikachu struggles to find against other good characters. Turns out that Pikachu is pretty good when his opponent lets him land KOs at reasonable percents!

one of the few matchups in which I would still use Pikachu over just about anyone else

But it's far from a slaughter if the Falcon plays patiently enough.
Doesn't pikachu's "pancaking" also play a role in the MU? Makes it hard for falcon to punish OoS doesn't it?
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Greninja's recovery is unlikely to be SS due to the lack of hitboxes on Hydro Pump. He does have some interesting options though; Substitute can be a fantastic recovery asset, especially against projectiles.

Someone mentioned Falcon's bad recovery being a meme; to be fair they clarified that it beats non-sword hitboxes very well. I don't know how well it beats non-sword hitboxes as a main a swordie, but I would argue that it's still bad. Even if it's only bad against swordies, that's 3 highly-viable characters that will give Falcon the hardest time recovering against (Marcina & Cloud). And it would lose to projectile, windboxes (Mario fireball and fludd), and is extra susceptible to two frames as it has no hitboxes attached (Mario dash attack would be a good one).

Not to mention one of its biggest flaw, the chance that it will stage spike if you try to edge guard off stage; that's a free tech into punish. I've seen it way too many times where Falcon connects his recovery offstage, and opponent techs, and follows up with death.

Now ZSS... I never thought she left top 5 before Bayo and Cloud. Bayo and Cloud made me question if she left, but if so, not by much. Zss being 11th was another reason I had a good laugh when V3 came out; it felt completly inaccurate and unbased. Do people really think she's behind Mewtwo? I never saw it that way
Falcon's recovery is pretty bad, probably bottom 15. Not to say it's terrible, distance-wise he can still survive almost anything, but Smash 4 recoveries are so good in general that Falcon's is comfortably one of the worse ones. It's more awkward to challenge for non-sword hitboxes because you have to survive a grab break in midair, but Falcon will still take the full knockback of your attack. Raptor Boost is quite slow and only useful near the ledge. He can still mix high and low quite effectively, but he almost always loses to direct challenges and does not have an option-rich recovery.

It's getting a little annoying how people try to use the "meme" label to discredit opinions that they don't agree with. Besides, even if something has become a meme, enough people must believe it to be repeating it.
 
Last edited:

MistressRemilia

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
425
Location
France
Recovery being a fatal flaw is a pretty massive & outdated mistake that's still done in our current days because of the past Smash games and the old ledge mechanics. The bad recoveries in Melee were not just bad for their distance & inability to recover in every situation, but mostly because, with things such as ledge hogging, recovering legitimately becomes a commitment that most players should be able to punish by getting the player right back where he's at after ledgehogging them, because most UpB have extremely poor landing lag. This is further examplified by Melee's Wavedash that allowed for the most efficient way of doing so.

Whether it's Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf or Doctor Mario, the ability to get to the ledge at all times is an extremely valuable feat that prevents them from being truly awful when it comes to recovering. Along with their small, but existing ability to mixup recoveries through some moves or sheer movements, and the fact that edgeguarding someone going for the ledge isn't an easy task for most of the cast because of the airdodges mechanics & the non-sluggishness of most characters' UpB, giving you a bit less time to try & position yourself for an edgeguard.

With that in mind, i'd say that the characters that can cover most efficiently the area in the ledge with moves that will send the opponent offstage rather than leading into a stage teching situation are among the better edgeguarders. Moves like Bayo's UpB/Nair, Characters with good air speed & disjoints like Cloud and G&W, and a few other cases like Luigi's Cyclone, Doc's Tornado & Sheik's Bouncing Fish.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
2,252
Location
Sweden
Recovery being a fatal flaw is a pretty massive & outdated mistake that's still done in our current days because of the past Smash games and the old ledge mechanics.
This. Also, let's not forget that some of the best characters in Melee have pretty poor recovery (such as Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon). In Smash 4, people like to talk about Cloud's poor recovery, but how often is it really abused, even at the highest level of play? Having a poor recovery in Smash 4 is a flaw, but it's not nearly as bad as in previous games, and even then some top tiers had poor recoveries.

On another, topic, Fox (:4fox:). I've long thought that Fox has been underrated by many on Smashboards, and according to the latest results he's #5. I personally don't go strictly by results, but I still think he could be #5-7.

Also, Corrin (:4corrinf:) got #15 in April, #21 in May, #17 combined, and #17 "all the numbers". So much for "not having any results".

Oh, and Lucina (:4lucina:) has better results than Marth in May (by 0.5 points). That's interesting.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Greninja's recovery is unlikely to be SS due to the lack of hitboxes on Hydro Pump. He does have some interesting options though; Substitute can be a fantastic recovery asset, especially against projectiles.



Falcon's recovery is pretty bad, probably bottom 15. Not to say it's terrible, distance-wise he can still survive almost anything, but Smash 4 recoveries are so good in general that Falcon's is comfortably one of the worse ones. It's more awkward to challenge for non-sword hitboxes because you have to survive a grab break in midair, but Falcon will still take the full knockback of your attack. Raptor Boost is quite slow and only useful near the ledge. He can still mix high and low quite effectively, but he almost always loses to direct challenges and does not have an option-rich recovery.

It's getting a little annoying how people try to use the "meme" label to discredit opinions that they don't agree with. Besides, even if something has become a meme, enough people must believe it to be repeating it.
If only Pika4life vs iStudying was recorded @ Avalon September 2016 was recorded, he managed to shut down every up-b mixup consistently
 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
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Messages
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Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
Somebody please tell me I am not going mad here.


That clip; did Marth's uncharged Shield Breaker just lock Mewtwo?

If so... how did I not know this until now?...
 

JayZee1700

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
75
Location
Philadelphia, PA
NNID
JZ1700
3DS FC
4442-2981-4202
A
edit, ^that MU looks painful for CF.

This is a good time to bring up the recovery ranking thread. It doesn't include the latest DLC but is still accurate enough.

SS
:4pikachu::4sheik::4metaknight::4villager::4greninja:
S
:4zss::4lucario::4gaw::4pacman::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
A
:4wario::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4shulk: (Jump):4dedede:
B
:4kirby::4mewtwo::4peach::4sonic::4fox::4miibrawl:(*112):rosalina::4yoshi::4luigi::4lucas::4wiifit::4ryu:
C
:4megaman::4myfriends::4rob::4miibrawl:(**22):4falco::4bowserjr::4samus::4tlink::4link::4ness::4diddy:
D
:4palutena::4charizard::4bowser::4dk::4lucina::4marth::4miigun::4shulk::4mario::4feroy::4miisword:(**3*)
E
:4robinm::4falcon::4miibrawl:(*11*):4miisword:(*11*/*22*):4duckhunt:
F
:4miibrawl:(**3*):4drmario::4ganondorf:
FF
:4littlemac:

CF's right next to Robin. IMO only F and FF tier truly have bad recoveries. No edge hogging helps poor recoveries a lot.
It's important to note that certain characters have "selective" recoveries. For example, DK has a very good horizontal recovery, but his vertical recovery is not that good. Jigglypuff's horizontal recovery is also good, but is susceptible to getting footstooled, and therefore dying from low vertical mobility. Another character like this is Yoshi, where his air speed makes his recovery pretty good, but without a jump, he's virtually hopeless unless he's close to the edge for an Egg Throw, or air dodges onto stage, where he'll likely get punished for it. Robin is the case where his vertical recovery is decent, but he doesn't get that much horizontal momentum from Elwind. Marcina doesn't have a BAD recovery. Just "selective." (I guess some characters also have some intangibility, so that also factors into it.)

Some recoveries LOOK bad at an extent, but it depends on the edge guarding situation.
 

Krysco

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In regards to the discussion of edgeguarding and recoveries, I've seen people say that edgeguarding is underdeveloped in this game and sure, that's probably true but I'd wager that it's because edgeguarding for the most part, simply isn't worth it. With the combinations of slow fall speeds, fast air speeds, generous air dodges, usually very generous recovery moves either with speed, hitbox coverage, distance, intangibility or a combination, the ledge always being an option due to no more edgehogging and many fairs and most dairs being laggy, I find that it's usually better to just stay on stage and cover their ledge option.

If you mess up an edgeguard, you're the one recovering now while your opponent is likely already back on stage. It's a big risk/big reward scenario compared to ledge guarding's low risk/varying reward. You only have so many options on the ledge with normal get up still having you right next to the blastzone, get up attack being similar and laggier, get up jump leaving you in a landing situation and the roll just being laggy. If you try a drop off -> double jump option, you're sacrificing your double jump and if you don't land on stage or get hit, you're also sacrificing your ledge invincibility.

With air dodges and recovery though, you have a lot more freedom to choose your timings. You choose when you want to be invulnerable, you choose when you want to go for the ledge and your opponent has to guess that. With the ledge, it's all set in stone, your invulnerable on the 3rd frame of grabbing the ledge till whenever (depends on percent and I believe air time too?). Can't even fully rely on trumping since buffering a roll, jump or attack makes you immune to a trump.

Maybe I just feel that way due to 2 of my 3 characters. With Robin, I could go for my f9 :foxmelee: shine (nair) or go for the even harder read with the f13 dair but if I mess up either of those, I'm leaving myself in a recovery situation with a move that doesn't cover me and can run out of uses. Meanwhile if I stay on stage, I can go for an easy sh ac fair or bair or even just a jab and I've got Arcfire to limit options. Similar deal with Cloud where I could go off and nair or go for a dair/fair spike but if I mess up, I'm either leaving myself wide open without Limit or possibly wasting the Limit I have in vain when I could just stay on stage and go for a sh nair or bair or even a LCS. Mewtwo is the only real exception for me since his double jump is huge, fair is relatively fast, nair can drag the opponent down, I still have the hard read dair and Teleport is a generous recovery in terms of distance, speed and intangibility without making me sacrifice something.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Yeah I think most players can still get better with thier edge guard game despite the better recovery options in this game. It's not easy to consistently pick the best edge guard option but you'll really wear down your opponents fortitude the more successful you are at doing it even if you don't get the kill that moment your setting up for a potential easier edge guard once you've really gotten into your opponents head and they get anxious and predictable. I know with Ness the constant barrage of PKT when edge guarding will make my opponents want to rush to the ledge making a drop off Nair/Fair or get up option read back throw a lot easier to land because they've been hit by PKT off stage for the fourth time and just want to get away from it.


Also my boy is 15th in results this year? We 2015 again.
 

The-Technique

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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Maryland
NNID
luckysharm
In Smash 4, people like to talk about Cloud's poor recovery, but how often is it really abused, even at the highest level of play?
Very often actually. Sheik, Cloud, ZSS, Fox, Lucina, Shulk, Bayonetta, Luigi, Pikachu, Mega Man and a bunch of other characters all edgeguard bad recoveries in a variety of ways in top play

https://twitter.com/TweekSsb/status/869363016013361152

And more recently Tweek posted a matchup chart for Cloud. Surprisingly Shulk, Mario, Robin, One, and Captain Falcon as solid advantage.
 
Last edited:

BTVolta

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 24, 2014
Messages
84
Location
Orange Park, Florida
This. Also, let's not forget that some of the best characters in Melee have pretty poor recovery (such as Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon).
Fox definitely doesn't have a bad recovery, and Falco's isn't that bad due the the sheer speed of Phantasm. With something like 352 angles on firefox and 3 different illusion shortens lengths calling it a poor recovery is a bit silly.
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
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Mar 18, 2016
Messages
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FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
It doesn't include the latest DLC but is still accurate enough.
I'm going to have to disagree about that due to it being old and not updated, as well as some of those placements.


APRIL DATA:





Changes from March:

Other +0.9%
Diddy Kong +0.4%
Fox +0.3%
Mario +0.3%
Corrin +0.2%
Sheik +0.2%
Mega Man +0.2%
Toon Link +0.2%
Pikachu +0.1%
Donkey Kong +0.1%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%
R.O.B. +0.1%

Bowser = 1%
Shulk = 1%

Bayonetta -0.1%
Peach -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Mewtwo -0.1%
Captain Falcon -0.1%
Olimar -0.2%
Villager -0.2%
Ness -0.2%
Pit -0.2%
Cloud -0.2%
Marth -0.3%
Lucario -0.3%
Ryu -0.3%
Luigi -0.3%
Meta Knight -0.4%
Sonic -0.4%
Rosalina & Luma -0.4%



Cloud: 532.5
Diddy Kong: 519.5
Bayonetta: 509.5
Sheik: 440
Fox: 338.5
Mario: 287.5
Sonic: 286
Zero Suit Samus: 235.5
Rosalina & Luma: 230.5
Mewtwo: 199.5
Marth: 180
Ryu: 169
Meta Knight: 146.5
Captain Falcon: 141.5
Corrin: 117
Luigi: 113.5
Villager: 112.5
Peach: 109.5
Ness: 109.5
Mega Man: 109
Donkey Kong: 106.5
Olimar: 102.5
Greninja: 96.5
Toon Link: 96.5
Pikachu: 92
Lucario: 91.5
Lucina: 82
R.O.B.: 79
Bowser: 64
Shulk: 62.5
Duck Hunt: 59.5
Pit: 59
Robin: 54.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 49
Lucas: 44
Link: 39
Samus: 37.5
Wario: 32
Roy: 30.5
Yoshi: 29
Charizard: 28
Ike: 26.5
Little Mac: 18.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Falco: 15
Pac-Man: 14.5
Palutena: 14.5
Dark Pit: 12
Mii Brawler: 9
Dr. Mario: 7
King Dedede: 3.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Ganondorf: 1

MAY DATA:




Lucas +1.1%
Captain Falcon +1%
Donkey Kong +1%
Greninja +0.9%
Mario +0.9%
Samus +0.8%
Mewtwo +0.7%
Ryu +0.6%
R.O.B. +0.5%
Sonic +0.4%
Bowser +0.4%
Lucina +0.3%
Mega Man +0.3%
Ness +0.2%
Luigi +0.2%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%

Other = 10.5%
Fox -0.1%
Villager -0.1%
Corrin -0.1%
Pikachu -0.1%
Meta Knight -0.1%
Rosalina & Luma -0.2%
Peach -0.5%
Toon Link -0.6%
Olimar -0.6%
Lucario -0.7%
Diddy Kong -1.1%
Marth -1.2%
Sheik -1.6%
Cloud -1.8%

Bayonetta: 133.5
Diddy Kong: 114.5
Cloud: 107.5
Mario: 87
Sheik: 85.5
Fox: 83.5
Sonic: 78.5
Zero Suit Samus: 61.5
Mewtwo: 61
Rosalina & Luma: 54.5
Ryu: 53
Captain Falcon: 52
Donkey Kong: 44.5
Greninja: 38.5
Meta Knight: 35.5
Mega Man: 32.5
Luigi: 32
Ness: 30
Lucas: 28.5
Villager: 28
Corrin: 27
R.O.B.: 27
Lucina: 26.5
Marth: 25.5
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Pikachu: 21
Peach: 19
Olimar: 16
Yoshi: 15.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 14
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 9
Duck Hunt: 9
Robin: 8
Palutena: 7.5
Pit: 6
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
King Dedede: 5
Ike: 4
Wario: 3
Shulk: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
Falco: 1

There's a lot to unpack here. Will post some stuff later, people will analyze it by themselves here, etc.

Bayonetta: 646
Cloud: 640
Diddy Kong: 634
Sheik: 525.5
Fox: 422
Mario: 374.5
Sonic: 364.5
Zero Suit Samus: 297
Rosalina & Luma: 285
Mewtwo: 260.5
Ryu: 222
Marth: 205.5
Captain Falcon: 193.5
Meta Knight: 182
Donkey Kong: 151
Luigi: 145.5
Corrin: 144
Mega Man: 141.5
Villager: 140.5
Ness: 139.5
Greninja: 135
Peach: 128.5
Olimar: 118.5
Pikachu: 113
Toon Link: 111.5
Lucina: 108.5
R.O.B.: 106
Lucario: 102.5
Bowser: 87
Lucas: 72.5
Duck Hunt: 68.5
Shulk: 65.5
Pit: 65
Mr. Game & Watch: 63
Robin: 62.5
Samus: 59.5
Link: 50
Yoshi: 44.5
Roy: 39.5
Charizard: 38.5
Wario: 35
Wii Fit Trainer: 32.5
Ike: 30.5
Pac-Man: 25
Little Mac: 24.5
Palutena: 22
Falco: 16
Dark Pit: 14.5
Mii Brawler: 10
King Dedede: 8.5
Dr. Mario: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
Bowser Jr.: 1
Mii Gunner: 0
Mii Swordfighter: 0
Jigglypuff: 0

Combined Results, Phases 1-4 + May:

Diddy Kong: 1854.5
Cloud: 1732.5
Sheik: 1622.5
Bayonetta: 1590.5
Fox: 1292.5
Sonic: 1211
Mario: 1135
Zero Suit Samus: 905
Rosalina & Luma: 865
Mewtwo: 736.5
Ryu: 607
Marth: 583
Meta Knight: 575.5
Captain Falcon: 561
Ness: 491.5
Mega Man: 463
Corrin: 454.4
R.O.B.: 452.5
Greninja: 422
Donkey Kong: 411
Peach: 409.5
Toon Link: 403
Luigi: 381.5
Villager: 367.5
Pikachu: 356
Olimar: 325
Bowser: 313
Lucario: 304
Yoshi: 280
Robin: 227.5
Lucas: 219.5
Pit: 194
Wario: 183
Ike: 170
Mr. Game & Watch: 165
Lucina: 158
Little Mac: 157
Duck Hunt: 148.5
Samus: 142.5
Link: 141.5
Shulk: 130.5
Palutena: 127
Wii Fit Trainer: 107
Pac-Man: 106.5
Charizard: 103.5
Roy: 101
King Dedede: 63
Falco: 50
Kirby: 47.5
Bowser Jr.: 41.5
Mii Brawler: 28
Zelda: 20
Dark Pit: 20
Dr. Mario: 19
Jigglypuff: 19
Ganondorf: 18.5
Mii Gunner: 7
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.445990/page-52#post-21722759

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

May tournaments:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4metaknight:
2nd: KEN :4sonic:
3rd: Choco :4zss:
4th: 9B :4bayonetta:
5th: Nietono :4sheik:
5th: Kirihara :rosalina:
7th: Kameme :4sheik::4megaman:, :4yoshi:
7th: takera :4ryu:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:,:4sonic:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Pichi :4falcon:
9th: Edge :4diddy:,:4sheik:
13th: Rizeasu :4marth:,:4bowser:
13th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: T :4link:
13th: Chanshu :4ryu:
17th: FILIP :4mario:
17th: Gungnir :4ganondorf:
17th: Kisha :4bowser:
17th: Paru :4bowser:
17th: Raito :4duckhunt:
17th: Jan :rosalina:
17th: Repo :4megaman:
17th: Eim :4sheik:
25th: Masha :4metaknight:
25th: Sukekokko :4greninja:
25th: HIKARU :4dk:
25th: Jill :4fox:
25th: Tosshi :4charizard:
25th: KaPMK :4metaknight:
25th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
25th: Lea :4greninja:

1st: WaDi :4mewtwo:
2nd: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:, :4wiifit:
3rd: DarkShad :4ryu:
4th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:
5th: 6WX :4sonic:
5th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
7th: ZD :4fox:
7th: Ling Ling :4peach:
9th: Remzi :4zss:
9th: Craftis :4sonic:
9th: Pugwest :4marth:
9th: JeBB :4lucas:
13th: Promaelia :4corrinf:
13th: UtopianRay :rosalina:
13th: Tension :4fox:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:, :4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4marth::4sonic:
4th: Earth :4corrinf:, :4pit:
5th: Edge :4diddy:
5th: Sigma :4tlink:
7th: Ranai :4villager:
7th: Masashi :4cloud2:
9th: Kuro :4pit:
9th: 9B :4bayonetta:
9th: KEN :4sonic:
9th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: Yamanyon :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Ginko :4pacman:
13th: Atelier :rosalina:
13th: ikep :4bayonetta:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Koolaid :4sheik:
4th: Tony Pajamas :4ness:
5th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Kogarasuma :4lucina:
7th: Tsage :4link:
7th: Kuma :4sonic:

1st: Regi Shikimi :4gaw:
2nd: Verguis :4dk:
3rd: Chag :4bayonetta:
4th: Laloba :4bayonetta:
5th: Salva :rosalina:
5th: SBGera :4cloud2:
7th: Simi :4ness:
7th: Ez :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo::4samus:
2nd: Dath :4robinf:
3rd: Myran :4olimar:
4th: Wormynugget :4diddy:, :4fox:
5th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
5th: MuteAce :4peach:
7th: Blank :4sheik:
7th: Duffo :4littlemac:

1st: iStudying :4greninja:
2nd: Antireflex :4rob:, :4diddy:
3rd: Badr :4bayonetta:
4th: Space :4corrinf:
5th: S1 :4ness:
5th: Tatuman :rosalina:
7th: Gregs :4sheik:
7th: Patrick :4ryu:

1st: Fatality :4falcon:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Scot! :4luigi:
4th: Omega Tyrant :4rob:, :4charizard:

1st: Day :4lucario:
2nd: LOE1 :4luigi:
3rd: Nom :4sheik:
4th: Ozone :4duckhunt:

1st: Mungmi :4dedede:
2nd: LegoKirby :4lucas:
3rd: Flygoon :4yoshi:
4th: LIL DJ 25 :4greninja:

1st: GrimTurtle :4bayonetta:
2nd: Papa Wall :4yoshi:
3rd: ThisGuy :4fox:
4th: Red9 :4cloud2:

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
2nd: Mr. R :4sheik:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk::4bayonetta:
4th: VoiD :4sheik:, :4fox:
5th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
5th: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
7th: WaDi :4mewtwo:
7th: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
9th: Pink Fresh :4bayonetta:, :4lucina:
9th: IcyMist :4samus:
9th: Frozen :4corrinf:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
13th: Mr. E :4lucina:, :4marth:
13th: Sandstorm :4ryu:
13th: ANTi :4cloud2:, :4zss:
13th: Zoan :4mewtwo:

1st: Extra :4gaw:
2nd: Ghost :4bayonetta:
3rd: Luco :4lucas:, :4ness:
4th: Aha :4tlink:
5th: Waveguider :4greninja:
5th: Boozer :4bowser:
7th: Swithi :4cloud2:
7th: Jezmo :4diddy:
9th: Con :4fox:
9th: Poppt1 :4ness:
9th: Ignis :4robinf:
9th: Jdizzle :4tlink:
13th: Eternal :4sheik:, :4fox:
13th: MM :4miibrawl:, :4palutena:
13th: haiku :4bayonetta:
13th: Dr. Ainuss :4fox:

1st: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
2nd: DarkShad :4ryu:
3rd: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
4th: Benson Obama :4mario:
5th: Celja :4mario:
5th: Sells :4bayonetta:
7th: Hive :4palutena:
7th: Butter :4luigi:

1st: Mistake :4bayonetta:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2::4diddy:
3rd: LetsTickle :4corrinf:
4th: Chrim Foish :4diddy:
5th: FALGOD :4ryu:
5th: Yoh :4sheik:, :4diddy:
7th: iModerz :4fox:
7th: nanaba :4diddy:

1st: Locke :4megaman:
2nd: Braixen :4diddy:, :4fox:
3rd: SilentRain :4mario:
4th: Justice :4myfriends:
5th: Viviff T. Great, MBA :4bowser:, :4mario:
5th: TrueMain :4sonic:
7th: Ruff :4mario:, :4samus:
7th: Mace :4fox:

1st: LinkEa :4link:
2nd: Keen :4fox:, :4dk:
3rd: Rollo :4mario:, :4tlink:
4th: Spyro :4yoshi:

1st: Xeon :4yoshi:
2nd: Headshot :4samus:
3rd: EKING :4mario:
4th: DaPiG :4corrinf:

1st: Dyr :4diddy:
2nd: DOOM! :rosalina:
3rd: Ross :4tlink:
4th: Tachyon :4pikachu:

1st: Mew^2 :4mewtwo:
2nd: Chuck Nasty :4charizard:
3rd: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
4th: Hyrule Hero :4link:

1st: Manny :4sonic:
2nd: Cashmere :4falcon:
3rd: Rival :4ryu:
4th: Schmooey :4bayonetta:

1st: Konga :4dk:
2nd: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
3rd: Captain L :4pikachu:
4th: Locus :4ryu:

1st: Fire :4charizard:
2nd: Griffith :4bayonetta:
3rd: Nin’ :4diddy:
4th: Pur Gars :4lucario:

1st: Nameless :4diddy:
2nd: Sinnyboo242 :4sheik:
3rd: Shinjoebi :4greninja:
4th: Skorpio :4robinf:

1st: Ally :4mario:
2nd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
3rd: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4lucina::4sonic:
4th: ANTi :4mario:,:4zss:
5th: Tweek :4cloud2:, :4dk:
5th: falln :rosalina:
7th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Mr. R :4sheik:
9th: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
9th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4dk::4lucina:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:,:4bayonetta:
9th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
13th: Lea :4greninja:
13th: Edge :4diddy:
13th: Tyrant :4metaknight:
13th: Elegant :4luigi:
17th: Phoenix :4sonic:
17th: Some :4greninja:
17th: Oisiitofu :4greninja:
17th: Ac :4metaknight:, :4marth:
17th: Nairo :4zss:
17th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
17th: Ranai :4villager:
17th: TLTC :4palutena:
25th: Eon :4fox:
25th: VoiD :4sheik:
25th: Samsora :4peach:
25th: ImHip :4olimar:
25th: Soulimar :4olimar:
25th: Elexiao :4greninja:
25th: Mekos:4lucas:
25th: Donquavious :4greninja:

1st: ScAtt :4megaman:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: HyperKirby :4feroy:
4th: Salt One :4falcon:
5th: KDK :4dk:
5th: Tortas FC :4mewtwo:
7th: Player-1 :4diddy:
7th: Harlock :4sheik:

1st: Ryuga :4corrinf:, :4bowser:
2nd: 6WX :4sonic:
3rd: LingLing :4peach:
4th: Mystearica :4bayonetta:
5th: DeuS :4dk:
5th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
7th: Krow :4olimar:, :4dk:
7th: Percy :4mario:, :4cloud2:

1st: Cashmere :4falcon:
2nd: 8BitMan :4rob:,:4diddy:
3rd: saj :4bayonetta:
4th: Manny :4sonic:
5th: Day :4lucario:
5th: Ryo :4corrinf:, :4feroy::4myfriends:
7th: 3Fresh Lade :4cloud2:
7th: Dyr :4diddy:

1st: John Numbers :4wiifit:
2nd: Angel Cortes :4diddy:
3rd: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
4th: dekillsage :4fox:

1st: Crisis :4luigi:
2nd: GOHAN :4cloud2:, :4mario::4samus:
3rd: Rude :4bayonetta:
4th: Vermillion :4dk:, :4cloud2::4bowser:

1st: Wonf :4bayonetta:, :4sonic:
2nd: Rox :4metaknight:, :4sheik:
3rd: Terry :4pacman:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Ang :4tlink:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: Taisa :4sheik:
3rd: Ashley :4ness:
4th: James :4rob:

1st: ESAM :4pikachu:
2nd: MVD :4diddy:
3rd: LoNg0uw :4rob:
4th: S1 :4ness:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:

[
1st: Child :4bayonetta:
2nd: MuteAce :4peach:
3rd: DJ Jack :4ryu:
4th: Kai :4sheik:, :4sonic::4fox:

1st: J.Miller :4luigi:
2nd: Willz :4falcon:
3rd: Magi :4mario:
4th: SBF :4mario:, :4diddy:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Pugwest :4marth:
4th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: quiK :4zss:
2nd: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
3rd: Wusi :4fox:
4th: Deus :4falco:

1st: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic::4marth:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight::4bayonetta::rosalina:
3rd: Elegant :4luigi:
4th: Nicko :4shulk:
5th: Ranai :4villager:, :4lucina:
5th: Locus :4ryu:
7th: Aarvark :4villager:
7th: Edge :4diddy:

1st: Nairo :4zss:, :4lucina:
2nd: Fatality :4falcon:
3rd: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4falcon:
4th: Larry Lurr :4fox:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
5th: Kameme :4megaman:, :4sheik:
7th: Ally :4mario:
7th: Salem :4bayonetta:
9th: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4bayonetta:
9th: komorikiri :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
9th: Wrath :4sonic:
9th: Ranai :4villager:
13th: Myran :4olimar:
13th: Lazyboredom :4littlemac:
13th: Mekos :4lucas:
13th: RFang :4mario:
17th: Day :4lucario:
17th: NAKAT :4fox:, :4ness:
17th: Captain Zack :4bayonetta:
17th: Mr. Speedman :4sonic:
17th: RoguePenguin :4mario:
17th: HyperKirby :4feroy:
17th: Sinji :4pacman:
17th: saj :4bayonetta:
25th: DRAKEML :4pacman:
25th: ScAtt :4megaman:
25th: LordMix :4bowser:
25th: KidG :4mario:
25th: KDK :4dk:
25th: Salt One :4cloud2:, :4falcon:
25th: TheReflexWonder :4wario:
25th: Rango :4cloud2:

1st: falln :rosalina:
2nd: Konga :4dk:
3rd: Locus :4ryu:
4th: Elegant :4luigi:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
5th: Pyreeze :4samus:
7th: Captain L :4pikachu:
7th: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
9th: Locke :4megaman:
9th: Braixen :4diddy:
9th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
9th: Fuzzio :4yoshi:
13th: FedVsRafa :4luigi:
13th: 9Tails :rosalina:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Girthquake :4dedede:

1st: ESAM :4samus:
2nd: John Numbers :4wiifit:
3rd: Ned :4cloud2:
4th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:
5th: MVD :4diddy:
5th: 8BitMan :4rob:
7th: dekillsage :4fox:
7th: Dill :4diddy:
9th: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
9th: DJ Jack :4ryu:
9th: Walrus :4bayonetta:
13th: xane :4sheik:
13th: StarbasedFruit :4luigi:
13th: Cheezeballer :4dk:, :4lucas:
13th: Kenta :4fox:

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Lingling :4peach:
4th: Raffi-X :4rob:
5th: Pelca :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
5th: Koolaid :4sheik:
7th: Scot! :4diddy:
7th: Craftis :4sonic:

1st: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
2nd: Nero :4pikachu:
3rd: Ozone :4duckhunt:
4th: Crazycolorz5 :rosalina:
5th: Miloni :4cloud2:
5th: LOE1 :4luigi:, :4diddy:
7th: Astraea :4samus:
7th: Midnight :rosalina:, :4greninja:

*1st/2nd tied after Ray reset bracket. Treated as winner.

1st: Zenyou :4mario:
2nd: Lima :4bayonetta:
3rd: JaySon :4fox:
4th: Karna :4sheik:, :4bayonetta:

1st: BestNess :4ness:
2nd: VaLoR :4sonic:
3rd: Lada :4rob:
4th: BANG! :4diddy:

1st: Jtails :4diddy:
2nd: Ant :4villager:
3rd: Coasty :4diddy:
4th: Erk :4lucas:

1st: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario:, :4cloud2:
3rd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
4th: Fwed :4fox:

1st: Ito :4metaknight:
2nd: K9sbruce :4sheik:
3rd: Ac :4metaknight:
4th: IC :4diddy:

1st: Nao :4mario:, :4ganondorf:
2nd: Marcos :4bayonetta:, :4falcon:
3rd: Obarin :4palutena:
4th: Hakadama :4lucas:, :4samus:
I'm genuinely shocked to see one win at Hokkaido and 17th at Umebura move Ganon up that much.
people like to talk about Cloud's poor recovery, but how often is it really abused, even at the highest level of play?
At high level play? A lot. Look at the Game 5s between Mr R and ZeRo in tourneys for the past two-three months. Look at Fatality edgeguarding Komo at Civil War. I believe it was said here when Ned beat ZeRo that he only got that far because of recovery mixups, which is even more exceptional considering he was fighting ZeRo. Top players know how to exploit Cloud's recovery, and often do.

My two cents on edgeguarding is basically what Krysco said. It's not just ofstage play, it's ledge traps, two frames, and the like as well, and you have to be more carefu;l with offstage edgeguarding.
 

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,249
Fox definitely doesn't have a bad recovery, and Falco's isn't that bad due the the sheer speed of Phantasm. With something like 352 angles on firefox and 3 different illusion shortens lengths calling it a poor recovery is a bit silly.
The question isn't good or bad but whether a recovery is exploitable. Fox is. He has two options and contrary to most players beliefs it really isn't a 50 50 guess if you understand the angles required for fox to recover you will kmow.which option he will use and recover accordingly.
Characters with the best recovery in smash 4 are the ones with safe recoveries and long distance ones. Characters like shiek, zss, and bayo are well beyond most of the rest of the cast. Edgegaurding them is way more difficult but often players will choose to let those opponents back on stage or at least to the ledge.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,963
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
I'm going to have to disagree about that due to it being old and not updated, as well as some of those placements.
Like I said, there are many things I'd change but it's a good jumping off point. My personal recovery rankings are (unordered in tiers):

SS:4bayonetta2:
S
:4metaknight::4villager::4sheik::4zss:
A
:4pikachu::4greninja::4zelda::4gaw::4mewtwo::4wiifit::4samus::4cloud:(Limit)
B
:4wario2::4sonic::4lucario::4jigglypuff::4shulk:(Overall assuming good use of both Shield and Jump arts):4luigi::4pit::4darkpit::4lucas::rosalina::4yoshi::4peach::4olimar:
C
:4megaman::4ryu::4rob::4kirby::4pacman::4dedede:
D:4fox::4link::4tlink::4myfriends::4diddy::4bowserjr::4charizard::4lucina::4marth::4mario:
E:4dk::4bowser::4palutena::4robinm::4corrin::4falco::4ness:
F:4feroy::4cloud:(No Limit):4falcon::4duckhunt::4drmario:
G:4ganondorf:
H:4littlemac:

Based on if the character is launched offstage, as opposed to upward, their overall ability to recover. This includes distance, how well they can defend themselves, versatility/mixup potential and how dangerous it is to intercept them. Bowser and DK are on the same tier because Bowser has the longer recovery but DK has frame 3 intangibility and disjoint for example.

Edit, gave Bayo her own tier.
edit 2 Mario up.
 
Last edited:

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
^ surprisingly I agree with zards placement on this list. His fly has intangibility, isn't susceptible to footstools, and has excellent power if you get caught in it, however the range is awful, both vertically and horizontally. If you're too far away from the ledge you have to risk using flare blitz to grab the edge and if you miss THAT it's an effortless punish. Tbh I actually think the placement is a bit on the high side (and this is coming from a zard main!)
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I'd be tempted to give Bayonetta her own tier. Not only can she recover a long distance, but she can also convert interception attempts into death.
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
NNID
EquinoXYZ
Not sure why Falco is below fox.
Not only does he have a much better jump, longer side B, and lower fall speed, but he also has more mixups offstage.

Up B carries momentum so you can drift it under the stage for protection and still make back to the ledge. You also have down B as a last resort to challenge chars who can comfortably sit outside of Fox's range and wait for an airdodge.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Not sure why Falco is below fox.
Not only does he have a much better jump, longer side B, and lower fall speed, but he also has more mixups offstage.

Up B carries momentum so you can drift it under the stage for protection and still make back to the ledge. You also have down B as a last resort to challenge chars who can comfortably sit outside of Fox's range and wait for an airdodge.
His jump is all he's got. I don't know if his side b goes farther than Foxes but rather you just can't challenge it head on off stage due to its spike hitbox. It's just as interceptable as Foxes and then forces him to recovery with Up B which doesn't go anywhere near as far as Fox's nor is anywhere as near as strong as Fox's meaning you can risk trading with it and be safer than trading with Fox's. If Falco is without his jump and knocked out of his Up b he's dead way more than Fox would be.

Also how is Shine a last resort? It has too much end lag and Falco falls to fast to do that.
 

|RK|

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Falco's side b is EASIER to intercept, thanks to the hitbox running out partway through the move. Also, his down b doesn't stall.
 

Trifroze

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It's more awkward to challenge for non-sword hitboxes because you have to survive a grab break in midair, but Falcon will still take the full knockback of your attack.
It doesn't trade with non-sword hitboxes, it beats them. It trades with certain sword hitboxes like Dolphin Slash and gets beaten out by most.

It's getting a little annoying how people try to use the "meme" label to discredit opinions that they don't agree with. Besides, even if something has become a meme, enough people must believe it to be repeating it.
That's what a meme is, a repeating idea people believe in. Opinions are fine as long as they have some reasoning behind them. As far as I know, I'm the one who brought up the whole "Falcon's recovery being bad is a meme" thing.

In the case of Falcon there was a repeating idea that his recovery is so bad that when he gets hit or thrown offstage he will die before coming back more commonly than not. Something as complex as recovering against another person with mix ups, reads and reactions on both sides is much better shown in practice than in theory and there hasn't been any basis for the claim in practice, but it was in most people's heads anyway, therefore being a meme. It survives because it's repeated, not because there's an underlying reason behind it.

In this game your ability to get off the ledge and avoid ledgetraps is arguably more important than your recovery because recoveries actually give you more options and control in most instances. Getting off the ledge is the actual bottleneck between disadvantage and neutral for most characters. Falcon has a good ledgeroll, jab and a good ground game in general to not have to resort to jumping off the ledge very often (thus not having to go through landing traps in addition to ledge traps).

Someone like ZSS on the other hand doesn't care about having to resort to jump because she has so many landing mixups due to flip jump.
 

Nu~

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His jump is all he's got. I don't know if his side b goes farther than Foxes but rather you just can't challenge it head on off stage due to its spike hitbox. It's just as interceptable as Foxes and then forces him to recovery with Up B which doesn't go anywhere near as far as Fox's nor is anywhere as near as strong as Fox's meaning you can risk trading with it and be safer than trading with Fox's. If Falco is without his jump and knocked out of his Up b he's dead way more than Fox would be.

Also how is Shine a last resort? It has too much end lag and Falco falls to fast to do that.
Well, yeah, it does go farther than fox's and if you keep getting your side B intercepted, then you don't know how to mix up your recovery. Saying "if he loses his jump..." isn't an argument because 90% of the cast is dead once they lose their jump. If fox loses his jump then he's left with that slow ass up B that anyone can spike or smack. Both are screwed.

Trading with Fox's Up B isn't scary and dyers no one from gimping him. It doesn't kill AND it has a worse hitbox than Falco's. And yet another thing Falco can do that fox can't, is recover below the stage. Because of his long side B + high jump + drifting Up B, Falco can recover from one end of the stage to the other to without even having to go to the ledge first.
This way, he can get out of a potential gimp situation and get straight to the ledge (and his ledge game is eons better than fox's).
 
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Rizen

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I just tested it, Fox and Falco's side Bs go the same distance stopping on the center of FD from rolling against the ledge. Despite Falco being a bird (:facepalm:) Fox has a superior recovery.
I'd be tempted to give Bayonetta her own tier. Not only can she recover a long distance, but she can also convert interception attempts into death.
That's a good idea, edited.
 
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Vyrnx

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Fox possibly has the best ledge options of any character other than Bayo. Almost no character can cover standard getup options and side b to the middle of the stage at the same time; the Fox player can pick one or the other on reaction and reset neutral easily. Characters like Sheik or ZSS have strong ledge getup options against most of the cast but struggle hard against Cloud on the ledge. Fox has an easy way to bypass ledge traps against even the best ledge trappers and in actual matches Larry rarely struggles at the ledge.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Lingering fadeback Shop Nair with characters that have half decent airspeed and lingering nairs(Mario, Ryu, Sheik, Cloud, etc) can cover most options and the Illusion on reaction. Fox's ledge options aren't that good simply because of how often he straight up dies for trying some of them.
 

DunnoBro

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Mario's nair doesn't cover it on reaction consistently except at the verrry end, his lingering hitbox on nair is garbage. Utilt is much more consistent on-reaction (And covers 2-frame and a high recovery from the same positioning)
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Well, yeah, it does go farther than fox's and if you keep getting your side B intercepted, then you don't know how to mix up your recovery. Saying "if he loses his jump..." isn't an argument because 90% of the cast is dead once they lose their jump. If fox loses his jump then he's left with that slow *** up B that anyone can spike or smack. Both are screwed.

Trading with Fox's Up B isn't scary and dyers no one from gimping him. It doesn't kill AND it has a worse hitbox than Falco's. And yet another thing Falco can do that fox can't, is recover below the stage. Because of his long side B + high jump + drifting Up B, Falco can recover from one end of the stage to the other to without even having to go to the ledge first.
This way, he can get out of a potential gimp situation and get straight to the ledge (and his ledge game is eons better than fox's).
but your missing the important part Fox cover much more distance than Falco when forced to use Up B. That alone give Fox a better chance at survival than Falco would ever, both Up Bs start at the same time, but Fox's deals much more damage and knockback (this can cause you to get stage spiked if you are t careful it doesn't happen often but it can happen if your spacing is bad) Falco's has pitiful knockback so that hardly ever is a worry. Both of thier side Bs are intercepted just as easy as intercepting thier Up Bs, Falco's only advantage over Fox when it comes to recovery is his side b starts sooner when airborne. Falco may be able to go under the stage but unless the opponent is Ganondorf they can make it to the other side while Falco is using a move with a FAF of 67 then a move with 20 frames of start up to get to the other side not counting travel time of his Up b once he starts traveling up.
 

Bigbomb2

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I just spam Ftilt at the edge and hope for the best :>. Ledge Trapping is probably something everyone can constantly improve on. I have to know that diving off stage for edge guarding is worth it before I even think of jumping.
 

FeelMeUp

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Finally got a chance to watch ZeRo vs Fatality.
His very first death(dair>footstool) shook him for the rest of the set.
G2 starts with Fatality dash attacking a Sheik's shield fullstage(which usually means Falcon should take about 54-65% minimum) and ZeRo's response is to....jump and try running away with bair. After that first death he essentially spent the rest of the set running away. That was honestly the most pathetic showing I've ever seen from him.
Dunno what's been going on with the guy lately.

edit: or it was the loss to nairo, idk.
 
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The-Technique

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Finally got a chance to watch ZeRo vs Fatality.
His very first death(dair>footstool) shook him for the rest of the set.
G2 starts with Fatality dash attacking a Sheik's shield fullstage(which usually means Falcon should take about 54-65% minimum) and ZeRo's response is to....jump and try running away with bair. After that first death he essentially spent the rest of the set running away. That was honestly the most pathetic showing I've ever seen from him.
Dunno what's been going on with the guy lately.

edit: or it was the loss to nairo, idk.
yeah, his set with nairo was way better by comparison, like even though he was behind it still felt like he could bring it back at any moment. versus fatality he just looked completely lost, i honestly think he would have fared better going Lucina rather than any of his rusty secondaries.
 
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