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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Routa

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The thing with Robin is that he cannot approach and he cannot force approach (charging a projectile ain't forcing anyone to approach). For example all Sheik needs to do is to get a early lead and then just crouch camp and throw out needles every now and then. I chatted about the MU with my local Robin and Sheik players and the conclusion was that Sheik will loose if he doesn't know how to crouch and approaches after having a solid lead. There isn't much what Robin can do if the Sheik player knows what he is doing.
Also this reminds me of the most important rule against Robin: Don't shield his projectiles. What you need to do is either crouch under them or jump over them. What you should do is bait out the projectile and then punish the lag. Remember that the poor man cannot land or recover well so remember to go for dem gimps and pressure him from below. I still think that Robin is a bit overrated in Singles, but oh well.
 

Goombo

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What does Robin's MU spread with top tiers look like?
Not too good overall.

Diddy, ZSS and Bayo are just painful, Cloud similarly bad in my experience although multiple Robin mains claim it to be around 45-55 and Scorpio even having some good wins in the matchup (Javi AND Ned? hard to find data on this).
Rosa, Sheik and Fox are around 40-60, Marth and Mario probably a bit better. Neutral and advantage are suprisingly good in both matchups, disadvantage, of course, total blowouts.
Mewtwo is a solid disadvantage, although the matchup is super volatile.
Sonic seems about even in both theory and results.

Most of these characters need to know the matchup though, elwise they'll get slapped pretty hard.
 
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JayZee1700

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Then why do people say this in regards to DK's Giant Punch or Sheik's needles?
It's not really forcing someone to approach, it's more of a baiting tactic. Opponent sees DK/Sheik charging Giant Punch/Needles and thinks "I can punish that" or "Oh crap, I don't want them to get it fully charged" so they approach. It's a mind game, really, and it only works on those who think those thoughts
 

|RK|

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DID CAPTAINZACK JUST LOSE TO A LITTLE MAC?!

LazyBoredom 3 - 2 CaptainZack
 

The-Technique

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It's not really forcing someone to approach, it's more of a baiting tactic. Opponent sees DK/Sheik charging Giant Punch/Needles and thinks "I can punish that" or "Oh crap, I don't want them to get it fully charged" so they approach. It's a mind game, really, and it only works on those who think those thoughts
Robin's thunder does force approaches in the very same fashion, though its harder against Sheik since she can interrupt it easily with needles. But in most matchups no one plays her and thinks to themselves "yes I am perfectly okay with Robin getting Arcthunder and Thoron, this is fine"

Not too good overall.

Diddy, ZSS and Bayo are just painful, Cloud similarly bad in my experience although multiple Robin mains claim it to be around 45-55 and Scorpio even having some good wins in the matchup (Javi AND Ned? hard to find data on this).
Rosa, Sheik and Fox are around 40-60, Marth and Mario probably a bit better. Neutral and advantage are suprisingly good in both matchups, disadvantage, of course, total blowouts.
Mewtwo is a solid disadvantage, although the matchup is super volatile.
Sonic seems about even in both theory and results.

Most of these characters need to know the matchup though, elwise they'll get slapped pretty hard.
I'm a little more optimistic, I don't think ZSS is as hard as she was since the nerfs, though its still an uncomfortable matchup. I would say Cloud is almost even, and Robin definitely has the results to prove such, plus I think it says a lot when Komo would rather use Sonic over his Cloud when he played against Dath.

And for Mario and Marth, yeah that sounds about right.
 
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TDK

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Calyptus Cup Essen Frame (100 Entrants) (Germany)

1st: Wusi :4fox:
2nd: Light :4sheik: :4mario:
3rd: Purple~H :4cloud2: :4lucina:
4th: LoNg0uw :4rob: :4cloud2:
5th: Frieddo :4fox:
5th: Zyclone :4sheik: :4samus: :4zss:
7th: Prodigy :4sheik:
7th: Jaller :4diddy:
 

blackghost

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DID CAPTAINZACK JUST LOSE TO A LITTLE MAC?!

LazyBoredom 3 - 2 CaptainZack
Zacks playstyle this very believable.
Zack thrives when his opponent is of bayo when they aren't he struggles.
 
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The-Technique

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Pretty sure time out Sonic is like 8:2 against Mario, lmao.

EDIT: Woops, Ally pulled through game 5, without a character switch this time. Still that matchup looks absolutely draining to play.
 
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NINTENDO Galaxy

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Mekos :4lucas:got 13th at Mom Con. Lost to Zero 3-0 in Winmers and 2-1 to Abadango in Losers.

Kodystri:4lucas: got into top 48 losing to DRAKEML.

HighDumpster:4lucas: did not make it out of pools but made it to Losers Round 3.

LUCAS NATION REPRESENT!!!!

SHI Gaming is live!

Tourney is Hokkaido Smash 16

Hakadama and Tenuhue, both Lucas mains are there.

https://twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Bracket: http://challonge.com/HST16T Translated Bracket
 
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TDK

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Port Priority (Washington) (132 Entrants)

1st: Falln :rosalina:
2nd: Konga :4dk:
3rd: Locus :4ryu:
4th: Elegant :4luigi:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
5th: Pyreeze :4samus:
7th: Captain L :4pikachu:
7th: Big D :4mario: :4falcon:
9th: Braixen :4diddy:
9th: Locke :4megaman:
9th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
9th: Fuzzio :4yoshi:
13th: FedVsRafa :4luigi:
13th: 9Tails :rosalina:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Girthquake :4dedede:

Capital City Smash 2 (Ontario) (57 Entrants)

1st: Deathorse :4mewtwo:
2nd: Blacktwins :4mario: :4cloud2:
3rd: SuperGirlKels :4sonic:
4th: Fwed :4fox:
 
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Das Koopa

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I've been slow on updates but I decided yesterday I'd wait out the weekend to post results so I can get all of May out of the way at once.

-I'll have the month-to-month % change I didn't post for March-April with the chart. EDIT: FINISHED
-I'll have first update of Phase 5. EDIT: FINISHED
-I'll sort out of the tournament results thread. EDIT: FINISHED
-I'll post all of the tournaments from May I didn't post + the couple from AZ I missed in April EDIT: FINISHED
-I'll update the PR thread. EDIT: FINISHED

This'll all come over Sunday-Tuesday, though I'm watching The Bigger Balc tomorrow. I have 2 articles lined up on Region Strength and game-by-game character diversity that I intend to spread out across a couple of weeks. After this I'll attempt to work out a reasonable schedule for all of this so I don't go behind again. I'm trying to sort out a region map, but I'll be consulting the backroom for help.

Momocon is also classified as Category 4, so welcome RFang, Lazyboredom, HyperKirby, LordMix, ReflexWonder, and several other Atlantic Southeast players into the fold! Numerous new OR qualified players.
 
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So New England had a regional happen yesterday. Not as many entrants as expected (given the weekend has been chock full of events), but a good bit of NE's finest talent came through.
https://smash.gg/tournament/shift/events/wii-u-singles/stats
Shift (101 Entrants) (Massachusetts)
1st Marss :4zss:
2nd Light :4fox:
3rd Lingling :4peach:
4th Raffi-X :4rob:
5th Pelca :4diddy::4cloud2:
5th Koolaid :4sheik:
7th Scot! :4diddy:
7th Craftis :4sonic:
9th Kogarasuma :4lucina:
9th Tsage :4link:
9th Tony Pajamas :4ness:
17th Game7a1 :4gaw::4jigglypuff:
17th LeeT :4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miisword: (Miis are 1111)
17th Juice :4lucas:
17th WriteGrammer :4bowserjr:
 
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Yonder

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So New England had a regional happen yesterday. Not as many entrants as expected (given the weekend has been chock full of events), but a good bit of NE's finest talent came through.
https://smash.gg/tournament/shift/events/wii-u-singles/stats
Shift (101 Entrants) (Massachusetts)
1st Marss :4zss:
2nd Light :4fox:
3rd Lingling :4peach:
4th Raffi-X :4rob:
5th Pelca :4diddy::4cloud2:
5th Koolaid :4sheik:
7th Scot! :4diddy:
7th Craftis :4sonic:
9th Kogarasuma :4lucina:
9th Tsage :4link:
9th Tony Pajamas :4ness:
17th Game7a1 :4gaw::4jigglypuff:
17th LeeT :4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miisword: (Miis are 1111)
17th Juice :4lucas:
17th WriteGrammer :4bowserjr:
I think we all know who the real winner is today. Peeps who place with this combination of characters deserve their buy in back. (Joking)
 

|RK|

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Yeah so... Falcon is never leaving high tier. May even rise, tbh. Fatality has defeated pretty much all of his "bad" MUs at one point or another. Who's left?
 

my_T

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Yeah so... Falcon is never leaving high tier. May even rise, tbh. Fatality has defeated pretty much all of his "bad" MUs at one point or another. Who's left?
Fox, Sheik, Mario?

does he have some consistent or back and forth wins in his bad MU's?
 

|RK|

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Fox, Sheik, Mario?

does he have some consistent or back and forth wins in his bad MU's?
Oh yeah, Fox.

I know for sure that Fatality has beaten good Sheiks before - Mario IDK.

But that's not me saying Falcon wins every MU. I'm saying his "bad" ones are pretty doable.
 

Emblem Lord

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I don't think Bayo is doable if they Bayo is willing to do anything and everything to win.

Which they do not.

Because "hype"

****ing smash community.
 

NairWizard

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Fatality is hands down my favorite player. Man. I love that guy so much.

His set vs. Larry is the perfect example of how a 4:6 matchup is still winnable if you just play a tiny bit better than your opponent in key neutral moments. Also how mixups in disadvantage are critical.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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I don't think Bayo is doable if they Bayo is willing to do anything and everything to win.

Which they do not.

Because "hype"

****ing smash community.
???

How aren't the Bayos doing everything they can to win? If your referring to planking they do plank when appropriate. The only Bayonetta that I can say fits your definition of playing for "hype" is Zack and he pays the price for not taking some Mac player he's never heard of seriously like he should have that's more on his mindset and mentality as a player and that isn't something easily changed like options picked in a match.

Point of the matter if Bayonetta was truly as dominating as many people make her out to be she'd preform better than she has. I believe she's top three but not the best character in the game, she has flaws that clearly hold her from number one more than the other Big Three. It's not like she lacks player base or talented players at that. Even though ZeRo is likely going to win the tournaments that he enters Bayonetta should still be doing better than what she has to be having claim as the best in the game.
 

The-Technique

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Did Fatality. Just 2 stock Zero. In under a minute?

WTF HE BEAT ZERO. IT WASNT EVEN CLOSE
 
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Emblem Lord

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???

How aren't the Bayos doing everything they can to win? If your referring to planking they do plank when appropriate. The only Bayonetta that I can say fits your definition of playing for "hype" is Zack and he pays the price for not taking some Mac player he's never heard of seriously like he should have that's more on his mindset and mentality as a player and that isn't something easily changed like options picked in a match.

Point of the matter if Bayonetta was truly as dominating as many people make her out to be she'd preform better than she has. I believe she's top three but not the best character in the game, she has flaws that clearly hold her from number one more than the other Big Three. It's not like she lacks player base or talented players at that. Even though ZeRo is likely going to win the tournaments that he enters Bayonetta should still be doing better than what she has to be having claim as the best in the game.
I'm talking about one match.

Why are you talking about tiers?
 

|RK|

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I don't think Bayo is doable if they Bayo is willing to do anything and everything to win.

Which they do not.

Because "hype"

****ing smash community.
Salem is basically the poster boy for doing what he needs to in order to win.
 

The-Technique

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The curse is real here.

First we start talking about how Rosa isn't top 10, then she wins 2 majors back to back. Now we start talking about how ZSS is a worse Bayo and she wins a super stacked major. Also an unexpected 2nd place finish for Capn Falcon, again.
 

|RK|

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The curse is real here.

First we start talking about how Rosa isn't top 10, then she wins 2 majors back to back. Now we start talking about how ZSS is a worse Bayo and she wins a super stacked major. Also an unexpected 2nd place finish for Capn Falcon, again.
I still think it's 100% Nairo being a god, just like I think Ally winning Greninja Saga is because he's just that good. I'll give ZSS some credit - Nairo's punishes were on point.
 

NairWizard

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It's more like we're steadily realizing that advantage state matters more than neutral game, and the characters with explosive advantage states (Rosalina, Falcon, ZSS) are performing well now in keeping with that observation.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I'm talking about one match.

Why are you talking about tiers?
I got the impression you were implying the Bayonetta's as a whole and connecting it to the whole Bayonetta is number one but doesn't have number one results argument I see here and elsewhere often. If that's not what you were going for then I apologize for mis understanding your post but that's what I got from it.
 

|RK|

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It's more like we're steadily realizing that advantage state matters more than neutral game, and the characters with explosive advantage states (Rosalina, Falcon, ZSS) are performing well now in keeping with that observation.
Rosalina also has a really good neutral, and Falcon's neutral isn't bad either. ZSS also has an above average neutral, but I think it's not just advantage > neutral.

I think neutral needs to lead into a solid advantage state. Vortexes like Diddy, Sheik, etc. are proving to leave too many holes open. It's like... different types of advantage. Sheik and Diddy have safe kill confirms, good pressure, etc. But their immediate reward off of a punish is lacking compared to Mario, Bayo, ZSS, Falcon, Ryu, etc. etc.
 

Vyrnx

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Trifroze

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Falcon's neutral is one of the best in the game and it always was. Forget the combos he gets out of dash grab and dash attack, his speed allows him to completely control the pace of neutral in most matchups.

The terrible recovery meme needs to stop as well, people who say that don't understand how well up b's grabbox beats non-sword hitboxes and how big of a thing weaving is against 2 frames or other on-stage edgeguard attempts. There were sets of Cashmere against Ranai and Esam and I think he got edgeguarded twice total in those sets. The ratio is similar with Fatality, getting edgeguarded once or twice per set (depending on how long it is). Get out with the cognitive dissonance ****.

The likes of Corrin, MK, Lucario, Peach and TL being above him is starting to look deeply questionable now. Pikachu, Mega Man and Villager I can buy because they're in a similar state of only one player doing well with them, yet Esam, Kameme and Ranai all rely on secondaries a lot while Fatality is a solo Falcon main. Pichi also won Umebura 24 and Cashmere has got a couple good placings at the only two big events he's gone to (had to check that up, thanks google).

"b-but the other characters have potential"

Who doesn't? The ones you don't care about?

Also regarding ZSS pls don't forget the last ~5 tournaments before this one. She's a risky character. Getting a win doesn't necessarily mean she's S tier, it means things worked out for her that time.
 
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The-Technique

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Also regarding ZSS pls don't forget the last ~5 tournaments before this one. She's a risky character. Getting a win doesn't necessarily mean she's S tier, it means things worked out for her that time.
Which 5 tournaments are you referring to? The previous tournaments this year that Nairo attended he placed top 3 and top 8 at all of them. If nothing else that's a pretty good show of consistency on the part of the character, or should we start putting down Sheik because she still hasn't won anything this year? (besides BEAST 7 for Mr. R but that tournament didn't have many big names attending)

EDIT: Also can I just say this is a freaking nutty ass day for Smash, freaking John Numbers taking game 5 against Ned in Loser's Finals.
 
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OverTime

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It's more like we're steadily realizing that advantage state matters more than neutral game, and the characters with explosive advantage states (Rosalina, Falcon, ZSS) are performing well now in keeping with that observation.
I think it's less that Advantage matters more and more that having a worse advantage state means more than having a worse neutral.

On that same token having a better neutral means more chances to abuse whatever advantage state you do have so it's still more important in my opinion
 

|RK|

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As a separate note, ESAM won Combo Breaker with Samus alone. So there's that.
 

my_T

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It's more like we're steadily realizing that advantage state matters more than neutral game, and the characters with explosive advantage states (Rosalina, Falcon, ZSS) are performing well now in keeping with that observation.
Lol I await the day for Ness, DK, Luigi, or Bowser to start winning or placing top 4 at super majors.
 

NairWizard

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"advantage state matters more than neutral game"
doesn't translate to
"neutral game doesn't matter"
 
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