Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[my_T]

You cant just say this without giving a reason. DK has top tier frame data, a neutral that rivals Marcina's, an earlier kill confirm, a frame 3 combo breaker, and super armor on demand, he has plenty of top tier traits. The only thing that makes Bowser relevant is his kill confirm. Why do people insist hes better?

First off, his frame data IS NOT top tier. DK's aerial, grounded, and special frame data is noticeably worse than all of the top tiers. Not even going to entertain this with details when kuroganehammer is at your disposal.

His neutral does not rival Marcina's as he does not have the frame data or disjoint on all of his moves to do so. His kill confirm is percentage and rage based and if he misses it he can struggle to kill at times.

Yes he has up B as a combo breaker but he can get punished hard if you bait it. If the opponent is at early percents they can still punish you for it even if you hit them with it. Not to mention you often have to retreat to platforms to cancel some of the end lag or retreat to the ledge if there are no platforms. There's too much risk with this move which is why you don't see DK players just throwing this move out every time they get touched.

His armor moves are up B and neutral B. Up B is not only slow but also has a lot of end lag; not something you just want to throw out as it is hard punishable. On top of that the damn super armor doesn't come out until frame 8 and it expires 2 frames before the first hitbox even comes out, after that all he has is arm intangibility which is why you will still see this move get beat out by other moves some times. Up B is kinda ****ty IMO considering how punishable it is. Neutral B is good but you have to get it first. The charge can not be immediately shield canceled like other charge moves. Takes longer to charge than any other charge move in the game I think. Once you use it you have to find the time and space to charge it up again. It's basically his ace in the whole but should be used conservatively. Good move overall.

The only top tier thing about him is his advantage state in terms of damage racking and killing.

The only thing that makes DK relevant is his kill confirm just like Bowser. You may not know this but DK's cargo throw combos are the only significant changes he's received. Before that he was ****. He couldn't kill early enough to make the few neutral wins that he could get count. All while having a ****ty disadvantage state as well.

Bowser has strengths that DK does not. Better OoS options. He's floaty and doesn't get true combo'd as hard. Better ledge options than DK. Better recovery as he has noticeably more vertical range. A significantly stronger advantage state doing more damage and knockback per hit on most of his moves, and has much more reliable kill options than DK. Faster dash speed. Better dash to shield frames. Better frame data on his skid animation. More range on all iterations of his grabs.

Bowser has slower frame data across the board which creates certain problems in areas of disadvantage state where DK doesn't struggle as much

When weighing both of their pros and cons they're about the same level.

 

[HoSmash4]

Mr.R's advantage state outside of true combos is actually better than Voids. Because Mr.R is a pretty aggro player but he manages to do so without being too commital, it allows him to dictate the pace of the game, make him less predictable with lots of crossups and just hard to catch.

I dont know Void personally but he has been talking often about mental and personal issues so I'm confident he can bounce back.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

First off, his frame data IS NOT top tier. DK's aerial, grounded, and special frame data is noticeably worse than all of the top tiers. Not even going to entertain this with details when kuroganehammer is at your disposal.

Kuroganehammer says DK's frame data is overall better than Clouds, and everything but fair is on par with or better than Mewtwo, Marth, Diddy, Sonic, and even Bayonetta and Mario on a few moves
But ok

His neutral does not rival Marcina's as he does not have the frame data or disjoint on all of his moves to do so. His kill confirm is percentage and rage based and if he misses it he can struggle to kill at times.

As I stated before, he does have to frame data to keep up. Everything but his forward aerial is on par with or better than Marths and intangibility on his tilts easily makes up for the lack of disjoint. His overall mobility is better than Marth's and his grab reward is much higher

Yes he has up B as a combo breaker he can get punished hard if you bait it. If the opponent is at early percents they can still punish you for it even if you hit them with it. Not to mention you often have to retreat to platforms to cancel some of the end lag or retreat to the ledge if there are no platforms. There's too much risk with this move which is why you don't see DK players just throwing this move out every time they get touched.

Use it mid combo as a mix up instead of an instant gtfo option like Zelda's neutral B
Its still enough to make him harder to combo than Bowser anyways

His armor moves are up B and neutral B. Up B is not only slow but also has a lot of end lag; not something you just want to throw out as it is hard punishable. On top of that the damn super armor doesn't come out until frame 8 and it expires 2 frames before the first hitbox even comes out, after that all he has is intangibility which is why you will this move get beat out by others some times. Up B is kinda ****ty IMO considering how punishable it is. Neutral B is good but you have to get it first. The charge can not be immediately shield canceled like other charge moves. Takes longer to charge than any other charge move in the game I think. Once you use it you have to find the time and space to charge it up again. It's basically his ace in the whole but should be used conservatively. Good move overall.

Grounded up B isn't a way to poke at shields or force reactions, its the exact opposite. Use it to challenge low risk high reward tools options like Sheik's nair. The end lag doesn't matter when she either SDIs and ends up on the other side of the stage or doesn't SDI and ends up off stage.

Bowser has strengths that DK does not. Better OoS options. He's floaty and doesn't get true combo'd as hard. Better ledge options than DK. Better recovery as he has noticeably more vertical range. A significantly stronger advantage state doing more damage and knockback per hit on most of his moves, and has much more reliable kill options than DK. Faster dash speed. Better dash to shield frames. Better frame data on his skid animation. More range on all iterations of his grabs..

DK's air speed is high asf and his air acceleration is fairly average, unless you can take his double jump he can recover without his up b most of the time. Bowser on the other hand is easily forced to up b and gets edgeguarded super hard regardless of how much better his actual recovery move is.
DK's incredibly high walk speed with instant shielding and tilts > Bowsers slightly faster dash speed. Despite his dash length being 2 frames shorter, frame 14 is still ass
Bowser's advantage is only better than DK's in short bursts. Overall DK has better edgeguarding, juggling, extended combos, and ledge trapping.

 

[PK Bash]

I don't think 2017 VoiD is a top 15 player. If you push it a bit, he could possibly be pulled out of top 20.
If you're reading this and happen to follow Melee, I'd say his situation and playstyle are very similar to what's going on with Westballz.

edit: It's late and I'm bored, so let me let me elaborate.
When you look at Mr. R's gameplay you'll notice that every player besides Anti and Dabuz cracks crack due to his pressure. He doesn't always choose the safest options(bad rolls, bad bouncing fish placement, bad nairs, etc) but almost every single one he selects exerts another layer of pressure on opponents and somehow goes unpunished.

Here's a classic situation i can give as an example:
https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=49s
Rising Fair>BF on bigger bodied characters and fastfallers abuses their often poor escape options and need to keep a jump to survive pressure offstage. It's technically not true at most percents and can be airdodged through(which causes the Sheik to lose stage control). On paper, you should rarely go for it and should instead elect to retreat to stage after the Fair or just choose another more damaging option. However, Mr. R constantly chooses options like this to force you into high pressure potential frame trap scenarios where you feel forced to get out and press something immediately. This, coupled with the fact that he's probably top 3 at reading players' habits in disadvantage, allows him to extend his hits further than almost any player despite not having a very strong true combo game. I've personally started abusing this against members of the cast like because of how worth the risk it is.

I'll add a few more examples so you can better understand what this means:
https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=1m13s
He throws hikaru offstage and forces him to start choosing options immediately by throwing in a trump. in the entire sequence he ends up getting a sizeable 48% of damage, but he attempts to continue his pressure with a Bair>BF and nearly dies for it. That willingness to make near spot on aggro reads and take "not really but kinda" risks to potentially extend advantage is both the reason he's probably top 5 in the world and the reason he tends to struggle making comebacks.

https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=2m20s
He hits hikaru with a Fair and overextends for a seemingly random BF that would normally only work as an airdodge read. Though it was way off mark, that single option puts fear into the opponent and tells them "this guy's nuts, i can't choose X option in Y situation anymore." The moment they start thinking that way, your pressure has succeeded and they are playing the game at your pace.

VoiD does not have this. He saw higher success in our more defensive meta because he could passively whiff punish everyone without ever hard committing to an approach. The guy rarely uses shield to keep full access to walking options and tries to stay as close as possible while still being out of range for hit after you swing. His brutal punish game made up for his lackluster neutral and tendency to take a lot of damage with such a squishy character, but now that people are actively dictating what options he cannot choose it has become much more difficult for him to get in and score those crucial hits.
Fact is that you can't react to everything. Not every move can be punished. If you're always playing at another person's pace, you will constantly be forced into unreactable 50/50s and situations where you flat out get outrewarded and lose. The best way to stop that is by taking away their options.

VoiD also tends to drop to random-ish characters more often because he's not smothering the opponents with that dominant "I am better, my character is better, play on my terms" playstyle that Mr. R does. So they can run free and essentially do whatever they want. A lot easier to poke holes in a squishy character's moderately rewarding defense than it is to get away from a safe, aggressive character's offense. Some top tier characters can get away with having their strengths abused to snuff out the strengths of other characters without knowing the matchup as well(Rosa jab vs DK is a good example). Mr. R doesn't need to know matchups nearly as often because his playstyle makes up for some lacking knowledge.
VoiD's results should go back up when he stops playing like a mid tier and starts using her like a broken character.

Edit 2:
I noticed this back when he played ZeRo at G4, I believe, but his set vs Mr. R at Royal Flush made me sure of it. This set is nowhere to be seen on Youtube because Smash Studios hasn't posted the VODs, but here it is:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/142858680
It was enjoyable to watch, but wasn't really close. Picture perfect showing of the difference between waiting for opportunities vs making them.

This is an insightful post.
I would like you to clarify something though: are you implying that risking overextensions with Sheik in advantage is usually more optimal than applying safe pressure?

I personally don't think Corrin, as a character, will develop all that much. She's not Bayonetta or Mewtwo with lots of hidden techs. Corrin rewards players who are good at the game, not necessarily good at the character.

I don't want to drag this out but I should have been more specific. I don't really care for impractical tech which takes hours to perfect and which you'll never use in a tournament. What I was trying to get at was that Corrin's neutral is linear
and relatively weak for her archetype. Her punish game doesn't really offer much variation either, but neutral is my main concern. Obviously neutral is likely to develop, but looking at the rate of that development whilst also considering the gaps in said neutral, I'm sceptical.
Not really looking for a response unless you're adamant I'm wrong, I just wanted to clarify that bit.

That's not how probability works.

Ness dtilt is also unsafe on hit if the opponent presses a fast enough button.

You're right but I'm not seeing how this tells me what I want to know? To be fair I phrased it badly. If I worded it like this:
-Ness Dtilt has a 30% chance to trip on each individual hit
-If Ness uses three Dtilts in a row one immediately after the other, it is guaranteed that one, and only one, will cause a trip
Have I said anything incorrect about the programming of Ness' dtilt?
It's not that important since the only real point of it is to pressure a shield and it's situational even at that. All I'm concerned about is that my knowledge on the character isn't outdated.

EDIT Locke 06 with all respect, you are missing my point. Which is basically that Ness' dtilt does not always obey the laws of probability and in this case of the three dtilts will guarantee a trip on one of them and only one of them. However if you use the dtilt only once and don't immediately follow it up with two more dtilts, this rule is not applied and standard probability applies.
I'm not making a new post to explain this, this discussion is clearly not going to get me an answer. I'll ask the question elsewhere.

Usually I'll assume trip and use FSmash

"*Ness' Guts increased by 3!"

 

[FeelMeUp]

This is an insightful post.
I would like you to clarify something though: are you implying that risking overextensions with Sheik in advantage is usually more optimal than applying safe pressure?

Not exactly. Moreso saying that it's optimal to continue pressuring the opponent rather than resetting to neutral or giving them an opportunity to play the game. Sometimes safe pressure isn't what you need.

You gotta go out there, jump the fence, and choose a dumb or suboptimal option on occasion. Even if it gets you punished. They need to know that option's on the table at ALL times. Let the opponent know you're crazy and you'll be surprised at how much you can get away with.

Once they're given breathing room and you no longer have a mental advantage over them, it becomes a lot easier for them to connect hits that convert into setups that convert into death. You want them to be afraid of what you can do and force them to make mistakes. This is why Mr. R often goes a full minute without ever taking substantial damage while VoiD trades a lot and sometimes fails to keep opponents out of his zone.

A character that relies on the opponent's slip ups, aka or the way VoiD plays , is not an amazing character. The one that forces errors without offering significant counterplay is.

 

[Locke 06]

You're right but I'm not seeing how this tells me what I want to know? To be fair I phrased it badly. If I worded it like this:
-Ness Dtilt has a 30% chance to trip on each individual hit
-If Ness uses three Dtilts in a row one immediately after the other, it is guaranteed that one, and only one, will cause a trip
Have I said anything incorrect about the programming of Ness' dtilt?

There's a 50% chance of getting heads when flipping a coin. If you flip a coin twice, you will get heads exactly once, the difficulty is figuring out which flip will get you heads.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Gotta review probability, boys. That ain't how it works.
You can flip a coin 200 times and never get heads.
Similarly, you can dtilt someone with Ness 8 times and have none of them trip. It's just unlikely.

 

[The-Technique]

Not exactly. Moreso saying that it's optimal to continue pressuring the opponent rather than resetting to neutral or giving them an opportunity to play the game. Sometimes safe pressure isn't what you need.

You gotta go out there, jump the fence, and choose a dumb or suboptimal option on occasion. Even if it gets you punished. They need to know that option's on the table at ALL times. Let the opponent know you're crazy and you'll be surprised at how much you can get away with.

Haha, now that's a style of play that I can get behind.

 

[TriTails]

Yeah. Probability doesn't work like that.

I've seen three misfires in a row and Judge 9 like six times in a row, so I should know.

30% chance to trip isn't very big, but you could get it if you're persistent enough. After all D-tilt is one of the quickest move in the game AFAIK.

[Cries in a corner because I trip and get F-smashed every damn time]

 

[ARGHETH]

30% chance to trip isn't very big, but you could get it if you're persistent enough. After all D-tilt is one of the quickest move in the game AFAIK.

Dtilt has a FAF of 6 if the next move's another Dtilt lol.

 

[Rizen]

I think people are too quick to dismiss 's frame data advantage. In the past I've said that could easily be high tier with a little lag reduction.
To start 's frame 6 jumpsquat for a super heavy with ladder style grab combos is huge. 2 less frames (vs 's 8 frame js) doesn't seem like much but it effectively makes all DK's aerials 2 frames faster and he already has an impressive (frame) 6 Uair with head intangibility on 1 and 7 Bair. Uair from the ground in 12 frames, Bair at 13. Bowser's fastest aerial from the ground is Nair at 16.
Dk's jab is 5, bowser's 7. This is extremely important. Jabs are usually the go to quick ground move. If DK's jab combos into his Utilt that's a frame 5 kill confirm. Grabs are 6 at best. Utilt at 5 alone is great too.
Dtilt 7 with arm intangibility 1-9, FAF 23. Another amazing move, especially for a heavy. All DK's tilts have intangibility, Ftilt at 1 and Utilt at 5. Bowser's arm intangibility doesn't start until the hitbubbles are out. This is the difference between disjoint or not when spacing. If Link jabs DK's Dtilt, DK will trade at worst. If Link jabs Bowser's Ftilt, Link's frame 7 jab hits before Bowser's frame 10 intangibility and hitbubbles come out. Now consider this principle when fighting speedy characters like Mario.
For mobility, Bowser's run got a nice buff and is a slightly faster than DK's but DK is significantly faster walking and in the air, both are above average for the cast. You can do a lot more from walking like jab. Now apply this to how DK and Bowser have to chase the opponents down.

On the flipside, Bowser's floatiness lets him escape weight dependent throws like Samus. His OoS is better and faster. Better disadvantage, although people are underestimating how DK's superior air speed helps. Better recovery and weight. Fire breath to edge guard space animals.
Like I said, it's not an outrageous claim that Bowser's the better of the two. I personally think DK is.

In terms of results, DK outperforms Bowser. As always thanks to @Das Koopa for the great archive.
1EE: CURRENT SCORES (UPDATED MARCH 21st)


Cloud: 362.5
Diddy Kong: 349
Bayonetta: 335.5
Sheik: 266.5
Sonic: 192.5
Fox: 183.5
Mario: 179
Rosalina & Luma: 151
Marth: 139.5
Zero Suit Samus: 137
Mewtwo: 131.5
Ryu: 116.5
Meta Knight: 111
Captain Falcon: 92.5
Peach: 82.5
Luigi: 77
Corrin: 75
Villager: 73.5
Greninja: 71
Ness: 63
Lucario: 63
Toon Link: 61.5
Olimar: 60.5
Mega Man: 58
Donkey Kong: 57.5
Pikachu: 54.5
Duck Hunt: 50
R.O.B.: 46
Bowser: 40
Pit: 38
Shulk: 36
Lucina: 34.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 33
Robin: 30
Lucas: 23
Samus: 23
Link: 21
Ike: 20.5
Yoshi: 20.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 14
Roy: 14
Little Mac: 12.5
Charizard: 12
Falco: 11.5
Pac-Man: 11
Palutena: 7.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
King Dedede: 1
Ganondorf: 1

 

[Vyrnx]

Bowser's floatiness lets him escape weight dependent throws like Samus.

Samus's dthrow isn't weight dependent. It does mean he isn't one of the ~8 characters that uthrow combos work on, and I guess on some lighter characters f/bthrow to zair can cover jump options, but not on Bowser.

The one thing I want to say is that Bowser's jab is so much better than DK's.

edit: my bad, misread

 

[DunnoBro]

Samus's dthrow isn't weight dependent. It does mean he isn't one of the ~8 characters that uthrow combos work on, and I guess on some lighter characters f/bthrow to zair can cover jump options, but not on Bowser.

The one thing I want to say is that Bowser's jab is so much better than DK's.

I think he meant like how samus escapes them, not her throw combos themselves.

Ex. Mario's uthrow stuff works on neither bowser or samus, they can jump due to the lag mario has.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The only real standout exceptions are Taiheta, who plays his Brawl main, 9B, who went idk --> Ryu --> Bayonetta,

I remember 9b being a Shulk main before his switch to Ryu.

 

[ARISTOS]

M2, or Ryu, the later two of which took a very long time to start showing up at higher levels of play after they came out

Nah Ryu did pretty well starting from release, and Mewtwo's big showing at Pound came about 3 months after his big buff in 1.13.

Not equivalent

 

[TDK]

The fact that Link's throw combos don't work on bowser is the biggest reason why the Bowser matchup isn't particularly good for Link. I think T has it as one of our worst matchups, actually.

At least from a Link perspective, I'd rather face DK than Bowser. They're both going to take a while to kill, but Bowser being even heavier and being immune to throw combos makes grabs essentially useless vs him. he can also cancel out Link's projectiles with Fire, making him even more frustrating to fight.

but I just go Rosa anyways so whatever

 

[Floor]

This is an insightful post.
I would like you to clarify something though: are you implying that risking overextensions with Sheik in advantage is usually more optimal than applying safe pressure?

I don't want to drag this out but I should have been more specific. I don't really care for impractical tech which takes hours to perfect and which you'll never use in a tournament. What I was trying to get at was that Corrin's neutral is linear
and relatively weak for her archetype. Her punish game doesn't really offer much variation either, but neutral is my main concern. Obviously neutral is likely to develop, but looking at the rate of that development whilst also considering the gaps in said neutral, I'm sceptical.
Not really looking for a response unless you're adamant I'm wrong, I just wanted to clarify that bit.

You're right but I'm not seeing how this tells me what I want to know? To be fair I phrased it badly. If I worded it like this:
-Ness Dtilt has a 30% chance to trip on each individual hit
-If Ness uses three Dtilts in a row one immediately after the other, it is guaranteed that one, and only one, will cause a trip
Have I said anything incorrect about the programming of Ness' dtilt?
It's not that important since the only real point of it is to pressure a shield and it's situational even at that. All I'm concerned about is that my knowledge on the character isn't outdated.

EDIT Locke 06 with all respect, you are missing my point. Which is basically that Ness' dtilt does not always obey the laws of probability and in this case of the three dtilts will guarantee a trip on one of them and only one of them. However if you use the dtilt only once and don't immediately follow it up with two more dtilts, this rule is not applied and standard probability applies.
I'm not making a new post to explain this, this discussion is clearly not going to get me an answer. I'll ask the question elsewhere.

"*Ness' Guts increased by 3!"

Would be closer to a 70% chance to trip at least once w/ 3 dtilts. Make a tree diagram. The chance any dtilt won't trip is 66%. The chance that all 3 will fail is 0.66 * 0.66 * 0.66 = 0.29 or 29% that all 3 will fail. Therefore 71% chance that at least one will trip

Now about Bowser and DK; we have people on both sides no nothing is objective here as some would say. I don't care who you think is better, there are two cases going and neither is a wrong belief held only by idiots

 

[my_T]

Samus's dthrow isn't weight dependent. It does mean he isn't one of the ~8 characters that uthrow combos work on, and I guess on some lighter characters f/bthrow to zair can cover jump options, but not on Bowser.

The one thing I want to say is that Bowser's jab is so much better than DK's.

It's about as good as DK's dtilt. It hits higher of the ground which enables him to catch short hops with it. It has intangability frames. More range. LESS END LAG THAN DK'S DTILT while having equal active frames on the hitboxes. Mix ups into dash grab, jab 2, and Bowser bomb. When he hits the opponent with it knocks them up just high enough to where you either have to burn your double jump and jump out or land on the ground and deal with his dash grab. If you want to throw out a hitbox to stop his dash grab (assuming you have one fast enough to do so) don't be surprised if you get Bowser bombed.

This myth that Bowser doesn't have a good safe poke can go ahead and die now.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Would be closer to a 70% chance to trip at least once w/ 3 dtilts. Make a tree diagram. The chance any dtilt won't trip is 66%. The chance that all 3 will fail is 0.66 * 0.66 * 0.66 = 0.29 or 29% that all 3 will fail. Therefore 71% chance that at least one will trip

Now about Bowser and DK; we have people on both sides no nothing is objective here as some would say. I don't care who you think is better, there are two cases going and neither is a wrong belief held only by idiots

Nothing is objective. But when everything clearly indicates something "what if" isnt a valid responsen. What if Yoshi is actually top tier? There is nothing objective saying that isnt the case. In short: convenient scepticism betrays a lack of arguments.

 

[TDK]

https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2017/shop/rewards-shop-31

Japan's top player fund for CEO 2017. If raised, it'd bring Abadango , KEN , Komorikiri , Ranai , and Kameme . If this is met, a secondary goal of Raito will be unlocked.

 

[my_T]

I think people are too quick to dismiss 's frame data advantage. In the past I've said that could easily be high tier with a little lag reduction.
To start 's frame 6 jumpsquat for a super heavy with ladder style grab combos is huge. 2 less frames (vs 's 8 frame js) doesn't seem like much but it effectively makes all DK's aerials 2 frames faster and he already has an impressive (frame) 6 Uair with head intangibility on 1 and 7 Bair. Uair from the ground in 12 frames, Bair at 13. Bowser's fastest aerial from the ground is Nair at 16.
Dk's jab is 5, bowser's 7. This is extremely important. Jabs are usually the go to quick ground move. If DK's jab combos into his Utilt that's a frame 5 kill confirm. Grabs are 6 at best. Utilt at 5 alone is great too.
Dtilt 7 with arm intangibility 1-9, FAF 23. Another amazing move, especially for a heavy. All DK's tilts have intangibility, Ftilt at 1 and Utilt at 5. Bowser's arm intangibility doesn't start until the hitbubbles are out. This is the difference between disjoint or not when spacing. If Link jabs DK's Dtilt, DK will trade at worst. If Link jabs Bowser's Ftilt, Link's frame 7 jab hits before Bowser's frame 10 intangibility and hitbubbles come out. Now consider this principle when fighting speedy characters like Mario.
For mobility, Bowser's run got a nice buff and is a slightly faster than DK's but DK is significantly faster walking and in the air, both are above average for the cast. You can do a lot more from walking like jab. Now apply this to how DK and Bowser have to chase the opponents down.

On the flipside, Bowser's floatiness lets him escape weight dependent throws like Samus. His OoS is better and faster. Better disadvantage, although people are underestimating how DK's superior air speed helps. Better recovery and weight. Fire breath to edge guard space animals.
Like I said, it's not an outrageous claim that Bowser's the better of the two. I personally think DK is.

In terms of results, DK outperforms Bowser. As always thanks to @Das Koopa for the great archive.
1EE: CURRENT SCORES (UPDATED MARCH 21st)


Cloud: 362.5
Diddy Kong: 349
Bayonetta: 335.5
Sheik: 266.5
Sonic: 192.5
Fox: 183.5
Mario: 179
Rosalina & Luma: 151
Marth: 139.5
Zero Suit Samus: 137
Mewtwo: 131.5
Ryu: 116.5
Meta Knight: 111
Captain Falcon: 92.5
Peach: 82.5
Luigi: 77
Corrin: 75
Villager: 73.5
Greninja: 71
Ness: 63
Lucario: 63
Toon Link: 61.5
Olimar: 60.5
Mega Man: 58
Donkey Kong: 57.5
Pikachu: 54.5
Duck Hunt: 50
R.O.B.: 46
Bowser: 40
Pit: 38
Shulk: 36
Lucina: 34.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 33
Robin: 30
Lucas: 23
Samus: 23
Link: 21
Ike: 20.5
Yoshi: 20.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 14
Roy: 14
Little Mac: 12.5
Charizard: 12
Falco: 11.5
Pac-Man: 11
Palutena: 7.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
King Dedede: 1
Ganondorf: 1

"In terms of results, DK outperforms Bowser". This isn't a good argument. Such a statement would also imply that DK and Bowser have equal representation in terms skill and attendance. I'm am confident in saying that they do not. Bowser has had little representation lately. When Nairo was using him and Lord Mix was more active he had good results and also better results than DK. Kisha also performs rather well with Bowser but he doesn't always use Bowser. This is just another example of results being misinterpreted.

 

[Rizen]

"In terms of results, DK outperforms Bowser". This isn't a good argument. Such a statement would also imply that DK and Bowser have equal representation in terms skill and attendance. I'm am confident in saying that they do not. Bowser has had little representation lately. When Nairo was using him and Lord Mix was more active he had good results and also better results than DK. Kisha also performs rather well with Bowser but he doesn't always use Bowser. This is just another example of results being misinterpreted.

That's long term data including Lord Mix's run with Bowser. The first half of my post is about theory.

The fact that Link's throw combos don't work on bowser is the biggest reason why the Bowser matchup isn't particularly good for Link. I think T has it as one of our worst matchups, actually.

At least from a Link perspective, I'd rather face DK than Bowser. They're both going to take a while to kill, but Bowser being even heavier and being immune to throw combos makes grabs essentially useless vs him. he can also cancel out Link's projectiles with Fire, making him even more frustrating to fight.

but I just go Rosa anyways so whatever

Oddly, T thinks Bowser is bad, Cat thinks it's even and Scizor thinks Link wins +1. I agree with Scizor on this one; losing throw combos sucks but bomb combos work great on his big frame. Link's MUs tend to fluctuate based on different experiences but usually end up about even. *shrugs*

 

[Nu~]

That's long term data including Lord Mix's run with Bowser. The first half of my post is about theory.

Oddly, T thinks Bowser is bad, Cat thinks it's even and Scizor thinks Link wins +1. I agree with Scizor on this one; losing throw combos sucks but bomb combos work great on his big frame. Link's MUs tend to fluctuate based on different experiences but usually end up about even. *shrugs*

T hating the bowser MU makes sense considering he's a much more "grappler based" link

 

[Bigbomb2]

T hating the bowser MU makes sense considering he's a much more "grappler based" link

and then makes sense that Scizor finds it favorable as he's very bomb heavy. I personally find it as even. I mean I play both Link and Bowser so I know they're pretty good at smacking each other around :v

 

[The-Technique]

https://twitter.com/Dath_ly/status/866834908349693952

Dath posted a matchup chart on Robin. Surprisingly optimistic even despite most of Robin's matchup's being listed here as unfavorable, only slight disadvantage against Sheik, Cloud, and Bayonetta.

Personally I don't think Bowser is THAT free, or Little Mac and Lucario beating Robin, also I don't think Robin struggles too hard against Mario (just me tho, also didn't Dath beat ANTi) but besides that I mostly agree with these matchups.

 

[Nobie]

When comparing Bowser and DK frame data, startup time only tells half the story. Yes, DK's moves are faster in execution overall, but here are some places where Bowser has the edge:

DK's tilts are faster than Bowser's, but they have fewer active frames. This means Bowser can cover things like spot dodges and rolls better with his tilts.

Bowser's jab starts up slower but recovers faster, making his jab a more effective poke and also safer to throw out.

Also, while DK has arm intangibility on most of his grounded normals, he doesn't have it on his jab. This is the lynchpin of Bowser's boxing game, and even though DK down tilt is plenty fast and dangerous, it just doesn't fulfill the same role.

I would actually argue, based on the DK matches I've seen, that DK doesn't really "box." He throws out bairs and tries to basically scare you into a grab, but it never looks like his actual ground game is anything to write home about.

The basic distinction is that Bowser is a more grounded heavy, while DK takes to the skies more. This is even reflected in their movement data. Bowser's dash is comparable to Marth's, DK's air speed is actually better than Mario's.

This video is quite old, but it's Hikaru playing Bowser. Notice just how different it is compared to his DK. With DK, he'll throw out a few normals every so often and then take to the sky before fishing around for grabs. With Bowser, he tries to play like a grounded fortress with only occasional jumps.

 

[Nu~]

Last I checked, G&W destroys robin. Forces him to approach because bucket + duck and makes mincemeat of him once he gets hit once (don't get me started on offstage...)

Nuetral is tricky because levin aerials, but nothing too difficult to weave around. Better yet, something I like to do against swordies is abuse dtilt's windbox whenever they commit to a jump + aerial to space me out.
Grounded G&W is OP here because our tilts outrange his and fair walls are erased by dtilt.

 

[The-Technique]

Last I checked, G&W destroys robin. Forces him to approach because bucket + duck and makes mincemeat of him once he gets hit once (don't get me started on offstage...)

Nuetral is tricky because levin aerials, but nothing too difficult to weave around. Better yet, something I like to do against swordies is abuse dtilt's windbox whenever they commit to a jump + aerial to space me out.
Grounded G&W is OP here because our tilts outrange his and fair walls are erased by dtilt.

I don't think G&W is too problematic for Robin. Just because Robin uses projectiles doesn't mean you throw them out judiciously at just anyone. For example, something that Robin can do that Samus and Mewtwo can't is that she can charge neutral B without fully charging it, so you can feint an attack, bait your opponent, or reverse your momentum in mid-air as much as you want.

Do I think it's 6:4 though? Ehh, I don't think there's enough data to really suggest that, since (to my knowledge) there haven't been many top level sets involving Robin vs G&W.

 

[Rizen]

When comparing Bowser and DK frame data, startup time only tells half the story. Yes, DK's moves are faster in execution overall, but here are some places where Bowser has the edge:

DK's tilts are faster than Bowser's, but they have fewer active frames. This means Bowser can cover things like spot dodges and rolls better with his tilts.

Bowser's jab starts up slower but recovers faster, making his jab a more effective poke and also safer to throw out.

Also, while DK has arm intangibility on most of his grounded normals, he doesn't have it on his jab. This is the lynchpin of Bowser's boxing game, and even though DK down tilt is plenty fast and dangerous, it just doesn't fulfill the same role.

I would actually argue, based on the DK matches I've seen, that DK doesn't really "box." He throws out bairs and tries to basically scare you into a grab, but it never looks like his actual ground game is anything to write home about.

The basic distinction is that Bowser is a more grounded heavy, while DK takes to the skies more. This is even reflected in their movement data. Bowser's dash is comparable to Marth's, DK's air speed is actually better than Mario's.

This video is quite old, but it's Hikaru playing Bowser. Notice just how different it is compared to his DK. With DK, he'll throw out a few normals every so often and then take to the sky before fishing around for grabs. With Bowser, he tries to play like a grounded fortress with only occasional jumps.

Overall DK's endlag and startup are significantly better than Bowser's. Bowser has some good stuff but, for standard moves there's no contest. It's not like DK loses in end lag overall.

DK doesn't really need arm intangibility on jab when his Tilts are so good. When little critters are dancing on top of you, you want a frame 5 gtfo jab and Utilt. Bowser's jab is a good poke but what does he have for jab? Link has the same problem, frame 7 jab with good range but when the annoying little guys get inside your bubble speed is what matters.
Bowser's upB, frame 6 does help but also is a big commitment.

Bowser being grounded is in large part because his jump squat is frame 8 and his ground speed is much better than his air speed. DK doesn't have these problems.

(edit, wow- Ness' Bthrow at 6:08)

 

[FeelMeUp]

sheik robin is probably 6:4 and borderline diddy tier
i know i say you can't sleep on most chars with sheik, but that mu feels more free than some of her 7:3 matchups because of how riskless microinteractions tend to be in it

 

[Game7a1]

I don't think G&W is too problematic for Robin. Just because Robin uses projectiles doesn't mean you throw them out judiciously at just anyone. For example, something that Robin can do that Samus and Mewtwo can't is that she can charge neutral B without fully charging it, so you can feint an attack, bait your opponent, or reverse your momentum in mid-air as much as you want.

Do I think it's 6:4 though? Ehh, I don't think there's enough data to really suggest that, since (to my knowledge) there haven't been many top level sets involving Robin vs G&W.

Mewtwo can charge Neutral B in the air just fine, as well as B-reverse and wavebounce it. It's Mii Gunner (Charge Blast) and Samus that can't B-reverse.
To add on for Mewtwo, Mewtwo can punish a bucket absorb with Disable (given his fast speed and how laggy bucket absorb can be) and one of his powerful throws, possibly KO'ing G&W. The only thing to be careful of is that the Oil Panic attack comes out frame 2 (but I've heard frame 1, so I'm not sure which). It wouldn't surprise me if Robin or Lucario (at high aura) have something similar.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hIj8mT9Uw&feature=youtu.be

So, it turns out quite a few characters* (Except Luigi, rip) are capable of getting a high damaging string or kill confirm out of a Z-dropped Metal blade. While some of these look extremely precise, a lot of characters get a pretty easy looking up smash or bair kill off of it. I'm curious to see how this affects Mega Man's gameplay, though at first glance I kinda doubt it will.

*Only top row shown in this video

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Luigi can just use blade to confirm a grab and get a high damage string that way
He doesn't need to combo him harder than he already does

 

[TriTails]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hIj8mT9Uw&feature=youtu.be

So, it turns out quite a few characters* (Except Luigi, rip) are capable of getting a high damaging string or kill confirm out of a Z-dropped Metal blade. While some of these look extremely precise, a lot of characters get a pretty easy looking up smash or bair kill off of it. I'm curious to see how this affects Mega Man's gameplay, though at first glance I kinda doubt it will.

*Only top row shown in this video

I will only be fazed when there comes a day when Luigi mains are capable of plowing through pellets.

Until then the inability to execute Metal Blades combos is kinda irrelevant.

 

[Nobie]

Overall DK's endlag and startup are significantly better than Bowser's. Bowser has some good stuff but, for standard moves there's no contest. It's not like DK loses in end lag overall.

DK doesn't really need arm intangibility on jab when his Tilts are so good. When little critters are dancing on top of you, you want a frame 5 gtfo jab and Utilt. Bowser's jab is a good poke but what does he have for jab? Link has the same problem, frame 7 jab with good range but when the annoying little guys get inside your bubble speed is what matters.
Bowser's upB, frame 6 does help but also is a big commitment.

Bowser being grounded is in large part because his jump squat is frame 8 and his ground speed is much better than his air speed. DK doesn't have these problems.

(edit, wow- Ness' Bthrow at 6:08)

A frame 5 jab is better than a frame 7 jab if they're right on top of you, but in terms of just startup frames neither is particularly great. Frame 5 on DK is just "less bad."

Frame 5 is the standard startup for a swordsman jab, the big difference being, well, the sword. DK's arms, while big, aren't fully extended when jabbing, making the usefulness of the move fairly limited.

I still don't see how DK's grounded normals are overall superior to Bowser's when Bowser players seem to use them so much more effectively in neutral. Yes, Bowser's slow jump squat is a factor, and it means he has less luxury in taking to the air, but here's something that sticks out to me: Why is it that DKs seem to almost always pick bair over every other option?

Yes, DK bair is amazing, and Bowser doesn't really have anything comparable, but when I watch DK matches and Bowser matches, DK's normals never seem like they're being used to really play neutral, more to fish for setups. To me, it looks like Bowser's normals, just due to the way they work (longer active frames, huge range on all of them), actively accomplish things that DK's can't.

 

[Nah]

Dath's MU chart isn't too unagreeable, though idk if she really beats anyone hard enough to warrant a 3rd level for favorable matchups. I don't really see why Robin would have favorable MUs vs Duck Hunt or ROB or Shulk, and I'm certain that the Link MU is no better than even. Sheik is also worse than that.

Nevermind the handful of MUs I'm personally unsure of (or why people bother placing Mac on MU charts).

 

[The-Technique]

Dath's MU chart isn't too unagreeable, though idk if she really beats anyone hard enough to warrant a 3rd level for favorable matchups. I don't really see why Robin would have favorable MUs vs Duck Hunt or ROB or Shulk, and I'm certain that the Link MU is no better than even. Sheik is also worse than that.

Nevermind the handful of MUs I'm personally unsure of (or why people bother placing Mac on MU charts).

For R.O.B it might be because Dath gets to play against 8bitman a lot, but from the sets I've watched they tend to go back and forth rather than favored towards Robin. For Shulk, Link, and Duck Hunt I agree though.

Now that I really think about it, I would muuuuuuch rather fight Mario than Sheik, those two should switch places.

 

[|RK|]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Baby_Sneak]

A frame 5 jab is better than a frame 7 jab if they're right on top of you, but in terms of just startup frames neither is particularly great. Frame 5 on DK is just "less bad."

Frame 5 is the standard startup for a swordsman jab, the big difference being, well, the sword. DK's arms, while big, aren't fully extended when jabbing, making the usefulness of the move fairly limited.

I still don't see how DK's grounded normals are overall superior to Bowser's when Bowser players seem to use them so much more effectively in neutral. Yes, Bowser's slow jump squat is a factor, and it means he has less luxury in taking to the air, but here's something that sticks out to me: Why is it that DKs seem to almost always pick bair over every other option?

Yes, DK bair is amazing, and Bowser doesn't really have anything comparable, but when I watch DK matches and Bowser matches, DK's normals never seem like they're being used to really play neutral, more to fish for setups. To me, it looks like Bowser's normals, just due to the way they work (longer active frames, huge range on all of them), actively accomplish things that DK's can't.

Its not the normals by themselves, its bowser's specs attached to it as well. If DK had bowser or Zard's Skid animation, you'd see a dramatic difference in how DK would be played.

 

[Rizen]

A frame 5 jab is better than a frame 7 jab if they're right on top of you, but in terms of just startup frames neither is particularly great. Frame 5 on DK is just "less bad."

Frame 5 is the standard startup for a swordsman jab, the big difference being, well, the sword. DK's arms, while big, aren't fully extended when jabbing, making the usefulness of the move fairly limited.

I still don't see how DK's grounded normals are overall superior to Bowser's when Bowser players seem to use them so much more effectively in neutral. Yes, Bowser's slow jump squat is a factor, and it means he has less luxury in taking to the air, but here's something that sticks out to me: Why is it that DKs seem to almost always pick bair over every other option?

Yes, DK bair is amazing, and Bowser doesn't really have anything comparable, but when I watch DK matches and Bowser matches, DK's normals never seem like they're being used to really play neutral, more to fish for setups. To me, it looks like Bowser's normals, just due to the way they work (longer active frames, huge range on all of them), actively accomplish things that DK's can't.

Many swordsman jabs that are frame 5 or lower also lack the sword, Shulk, Cloud and Ike, come to mind but that's beside the point.
I could be wrong but DK's Dtilt has better range than bowser's jab. It also deal 2% more damage, which is good for shield safety and trips some of the time. Again DK's jab doesn't need to have poke properties when he has DTilt. And don't forget about frame 5 Utilt. You also have to factor in DK's walk is faster.

I disagree about DK's neutral being worse than bowser's. Bowser is limited to jabs and pivots where DK can RAR Bair and tilt from a walk. If the opponent gets in DK has jab to fall back on. The issue is Bowser's jab is comparable to DK's tilts but he doesn't have anything to fill in for jab. DK controls various spacing situations better.
I will say Bowser's jab is very good and often with a good move you don't need anything else. His D and FTilts are icing on the cake. That cake is more restrected to the spacing and function of tilts though.

Isn't neutral fishing for setups? RAR is a good option; it exploits a blind spot above a lot of character's jab/F/Dtilts. DK's ground game having less FAF lets him throw out moves with less commitment. Arm intangibility is a big thing too. Like I said in a previous post it's why DK can play footsies with swordies and Bowser can't as well.


I'm defending DK but do think Bowser and he are about even. Saying Bowser might be better is a valid assessment even if I personally disagree.