Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[my_T]

I'm kind of unsure why you mentioned Earth...If Earth decided to main Corrin it likely wouldn't sway people's opinions because he's a mid tier hero.

He's been getting better results since he started using Corrin though hasn't he?

 

[chaos11011]

I'm surprised Raito isn't on that Suar list. For only two US tournaments this season, wins on Larry and Anti are impressive, but I guess it doesn't quite cut it anymore. His Genesis run was stopped by Raffi-X and You3 while his CEO Dreamland run (where he beat the aforementioned) was stoppes by VoiD and Dabuz.

 

[Floor]

I think Corrin is a prime example. Most top level players see the potential in Corrin, as do most notable Corrin players. She was voted into high tier (top of high tier) in this tier list. Many objected, some even argued that she's a mid tier because of "lack of results".

This.

This is what happens time and time over: the blind will lead the knowledgeable and beat them with "results". Non Corrin mains will tell you that top players are wrong and Corrin is mid tier. Non Corrin mains will tell actual dedicated Corrin mains that "your theory is invalid because she doesn't have results". Lucina and Bayonetta are also hit by this. We should value top player opinions over anyone here's opinion, and take a Corrin main's word about their character over our own limited knowledge.

 

[|RK|]

Mind you, the mock PGR wasn't made by the PGR team.

 

[PK Bash]

Thing is though is that top players say a lot of **** and you need to take everything they say with a pinch of salt. Skill does not necessarily equate to knowledge. Applies to absolutely anything.

Corrin's basic theory is sound and the character is clearly better than anyone in the current C tier. However it is also prone to exaggeration with not a whole lot of evidence nor sound logical reasoning to back it up. This is what bothers me the most. If the character is so good and potentially top tier, as everyone constantly likes to tell me without actually explaining why this so, why does nobody fear her. Could that be because it's not a terribly important matchup for most good characters to learn maybe?
The character is also more shallow than the hype would lead you to believe. Maybe we'll see more development on this front when people learn the counterplay to Pin, I'm sure there must be room to grow. I'd hope so anyway given how much this character is hyped up.

Character is clearly good but surrounded by a lot of hyperbole. This is why I am sceptical of Corrin. She's going to need a hell of a lot of solid placements in the future to cash the cheques some people are writing. I don't think my scepticism is unreasonable.

???

How does dtilt not work on FFs? It's a 25% trip chance regardless. And if any character generally fast fallers have a harder time getting out of PK Fire then anyone. PK Fire isn't the best way of getting your confirm but it does exist. Ness would rather get his kill grab in via his threatening aerials forcing you to either commit to shield or die to Up air at 120 which then conditions shield making grab easier or the use of ledge traps (either dtilt at ledge or short hop Nair which will kill at ledge around 100) to get a ledge option you want and then backthrow. Off stage if you get hit by PK Thunder on your side that is facing the stage while your below it depending on your percentage Ness has a myriad of confirm options. Either you'll hit the stage and forced to tech, you will fall onto the stage in hitstun and can be jab locked for free or you'll get popped just above it forcing a 50/50. You air dodge you'll land on stage in lag and die to a smash attack, you jump and get up air'd. In addition around 40 percent for most characters if Ness hits you with Nair you'll be forced to tech very quickly otherwise Ness can follow up with a triple jab lock FSmash and if your anywhere near the ledge your likely dead when this happens, FOW does this often.

Also a bit unorthodox but still a very legitimate threat is getting frame trapped by PKT1 into PKT2, The Great Gonzales does this often.

I'll agree he doesn't have a lot of confirms but he can get you to do what he wants to get his kill with or without back throw.

Correct me if this was debunked but Dtilt trip chance is closer to 33% I believe - if you use three in quick succession one of them is guaranteed to trip. The difficulty of course comes from not knowing which one it will be.
Also Ness' ability to frametrap rolls with SH nair on reaction is important to some setups; aside from setting up easier jablocks because people are already holding down their Tech button to roll, it usually will give you the weak hit which can set up 50/50s and other things. Nobody really uses it much though because most of us usually punish rolls with a grab. I feel Ness' frametraps are underexplored and underutilised by most of us (myself included) and we need to look into these more, but here isn't really the place for that.

 

[Nu~]

We should value top player opinions over anyone here's opinion, and take a Corrin main's word about their character over our own limited knowledge.

Alright, I have a big problem with this.

First, where are these "most" notable Corrin players? I don't remember Yoc or Earth ever giving their opinion on Corrin's viability, only cosmos and ryuga. From what I've seen from notable Corrin mains, their opinions are split. You have ryuga who swears up and down that Side B is overrated and cloud destroys her, while the way cosmos talks about her makes it seem like the character is top 10.


Also, no, I don't think we should just blindly value top player opinions over anyone else's. Top players dissagree with each other as well, and if ZeRo is anything to go by, they aren't all exactly the best analysts out there when it comes to determining how powerful a char is.

Hell, just look at how much ally and Anti devalue Mario and then look at how well he performs consistently. Even looking at his tools in theory, "Mario sucks" is quite honestly a baseless opinion.


As for the rest of your comment...

This.

This is what happens time and time over: the blind will lead the knowledgeable and beat them with "results". Non Corrin mains will tell you that top players are wrong and Corrin is mid tier. Non Corrin mains will tell actual dedicated Corrin mains that "your theory is invalid because she doesn't have results". Lucina and Bayonetta are also hit by this.

I swear you're strawmanning here. Who, outside of a small minority you see on smashboards every now and then, is smashing the proverbial "Ship of truth" into the craggy shores of ignorance?
Can you even hear how arrogant you sound?

You can play a character at a high level without having the best knowledge on where a char lies in the meta. If your theory was true, then we should just stop theorizing altogether and allow our philosopher king ESAM to guide us toward the "truth" that Pikachu is top 3.


Look man, I agree with you that "results" isn't an argument. What you miss is that "results" and gameplay are proof that those theoretical claims you love to cling onto so tightly, aren't BS.
You can only say something like "Mario sucks" for so long before ALL the real world data dissagrees with you.

 

[Nah]

This.

This is what happens time and time over: the blind will lead the knowledgeable and beat them with "results". Non Corrin mains will tell you that top players are wrong and Corrin is mid tier. Non Corrin mains will tell actual dedicated Corrin mains that "your theory is invalid because she doesn't have results". Lucina and Bayonetta are also hit by this. We should value top player opinions over anyone here's opinion, and take a Corrin main's word about their character over our own limited knowledge.

I mean....

I'm a Corrin main. And have been saying for months now that I don't think she's quite as good as people often make her out to be. And I haven't ever really used results as my primary point.

While we should place some value on the opinions of mains and/or top players, they're all prone to being wrong and having bizarre thoughts just like the rest of us (and yes, I'm aware this applies to me too). It's the argument itself that matters, not who it's coming from.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If the character is so good and potentially top tier, as everyone constantly likes to tell me without actually explaining why this so, why does nobody fear her.

People do fear Corrin, though, although I don't believe she's potentially top tier. Luckily for us, it's not "She's either top tier or mid tier", high tier is a perfectly reasonable option, and it's likely where she is. Where is she in high tier? I don't know. She could be #14, she could be #17, she could even be #20 or #22. I'm currently optimistic and think she'll fall somewhere in 14-17, but we'll see.

She's going to need a hell of a lot of solid placements in the future to cash the cheques some people are writing

Frozen beat both ANTi and MARSS with Corrin. That's impressive, especially considering those two are top 20 players and he isn't considered a top 20 player (and probably isn't a top 20 player). That's one of her current issues: She doesn't have a top 20 player representing her. Perhaps that will change in the future (Cosmos is fairly young, if he starts to travel more he could really grow as a player, for instance).

First, where are these "most" notable Corrin players? I don't remember Yoc or Earth ever giving their opinion on Corrin's viability, only cosmos and ryuga. From what I've seen from notable Corrin mains, their opinions are split. You have ryuga who swears up and down that Side B is overrated and cloud destroys her, while the way cosmos talks about her makes it seem like the character is top 10.

Frozen seems to think that she's high tier, at least (once said 12-14, but more recently said that she might not even be top 15, but that's still high tier). Corrin is almost certainly not top tier, and almost certainly worse than characters such as Marth, Lucina, Mewtwo, and Mario. Probably Ryu as well. That puts har at #14 at best. At worst? Hmm... I guess #25, though I highly doubt that.

Also, no, I don't think we should just blindly value top player opinions over anyone else's.

Of course not.

Even looking at his tools in theory, "Mario sucks" is quite honestly a baseless opinion.

It's more like a meme, they don't actually think that Mario sucks.

Look man, I agree with you that "results" isn't an argument. What you miss is that "results" and gameplay are proof that those theoretical claims you love to cling onto so tightly, aren't BS.
You can only say something like "Mario sucks" for so long before ALL the real world data dissagrees with you.[/QUOTE]

I'm a Corrin main. And have been saying for months now that I don't think she's quite as good as people often make her out to be.

A lot of people here seem to think she's mid tier. It's mostly top level non-Corrin players who overrate her (like Larry Lurr, ANTi, and ESAM).

 

[TDK]

This is what happens time and time over: the blind will lead the knowledgeable and beat them with "results".

You're really being ridiculous here. I have a lot of problems with this one sentence, but basically you're saying people who look at results are blind and only use results because they know nothing about a character. You're missing basic understanding of how results work. Results are not a be-all end-all argument in the same way that theory is not a be-all-end-all argument. You may argue that people who ignore theory in favour of results - physical proof of how good a character can perform, are dumb because they are trusting the only metric we have to measure character viability that delivers actual valid proof, but what other way do we have to measure a character viability? Twitter/Vine combos? ESAM constantly calling Pikachu top 3? One of the basic fundamental principles of analysis, after all, is backing up your theories with physical proof, and if the physical proof and theory align, you're on the right track.

You're saying we should ignore results in favour of top player/character main opinion, because they're good/know the character? Well, most top players post stuff about characters that are more baseless than the stuff in here. Leo thinks Zard is top 15, but he doesn't bother backing it up, and yet you'd trust it more than a well thought-out post backed up with our proof in here? Or what about ESAM, who screams to the high heavens that Pikachu is broken and yet he's the only Pika who regularly does well? Top players often have more ridiculous opinions bred by the conditions they play in (IE ESAM, iirc, thinks Mario is the best in the game, which stems from his own issue fighting Marios, and Leo has Serge, a candidate for best Zard, as a cousin) as opposed to any factual proof.

Frankly, I don't think this is the right thread for you. People here don't just go "RESULTS!!!!!!!" no more than anyone (except ironically, you) goes "THEORY!!!!!!!!". Analysis is all about the mix of facts (Results) and your own theory to create a cohesive argument. Ignore one of the two, and it falls apart. You don't understand that.

 

[Floor]

Alright, I have a big problem with this.

First, where are these "most" notable Corrin players? I don't remember Yoc or Earth ever giving their opinion on Corrin's viability, only cosmos and ryuga. From what I've seen from notable Corrin mains, their opinions are split. You have ryuga who swears up and down that Side B is overrated and cloud destroys her, while the way cosmos talks about her makes it seem like the character is top 10.


Also, no, I don't think we should just blindly value top player opinions over anyone else's. Top players dissagree with each other as well, and if ZeRo is anything to go by, they aren't all exactly the best analysts out there when it comes to determining how powerful a char is.

Hell, just look at how much ally and Anti devalue Mario and then look at how well he performs consistently. Even looking at his tools in theory, "Mario sucks" is quite honestly a baseless opinion.


As for the rest of your comment...


I swear you're strawwmanning here. Who, outside of a small minority you see on smashboards every now and then, is smashing the proverbial "Ship of truth" into the craggy shores of ignorance?
Can you even hear how arrogant you sound?

You can play a character at a high level without having the best knowledge on where a char lies in the meta. If your theory was true, then we should just stop theorizing altogether and allow our philosopher king ESAM to guide us toward the "truth" that Pikachu is top 3.


Look man, I agree with you that "results" isn't an argument. What you miss is that "results" and gameplay are proof that those theoretical claims you love to cling onto so tightly, aren't BS.
You can only say something like "Mario sucks" for so long before ALL the real world data dissagrees with you.

Well now we shouldn't blindly accept anything, not even top players. But there's something to consider with top players. You should absolutely weight them more, but what you accept is up to your own critical reasoning. You make it sound like I believe top players should be dictators; I don't, but their views are worth more. ESAM is alone thinking Pika is top 3 and no one agrees because it is far fetched. But ANTi and Ally? I actually agree; I think Mario is around 9th due to how I view his MU spread and tools. I accept Ally and ANTis views because I reviewed them critically and gave them the all-clear.

While we should place some value on the opinions of mains and/or top players, they're all prone to being wrong and having bizarre thoughts just like the rest of us (and yes, I'm aware this applies to me too). It's the argument itself that matters

Yes, the arguement itself matters, but some context helps. Ally hates swordies because they beat his character. He is pretty adamant about how good a sword is. I would consider this if he made a tier list and put Marth Lucina and Cloud at #1-3; he would likely think this way because he struggles with them the most. I explained above about weighing the arguement itself, but I think some context and knowing who it's coming from helps too.

If I knew nothing about the game and Mr. E said "Lucina beats Mario" meanwhile someone on Smashboards a few months ago (who mains idk Kirby) would "lol no Mario destroys Lucina" I would take Mr. E's word for it because he has more experience and knowledge and I can accept his opinion because he makes a valid case for it that I can understand.

You're really being ridiculous here. I have a lot of problems with this one sentence, but basically you're saying people who look at results are blind and only use results because they know nothing about a character. You're missing basic understanding of how results work. Results are not a be-all end-all argument in the same way that theory is not a be-all-end-all argument. You may argue that people who ignore theory in favour of results - physical proof of how good a character can perform, are dumb because they are trusting the only metric we have to measure character viability that delivers actual valid proof, but what other way do we have to measure a character viability? Twitter/Vine combos? ESAM constantly calling Pikachu top 3? One of the basic fundamental principles of analysis, after all, is backing up your theories with physical proof, and if the physical proof and theory align, you're on the right track.

You're saying we should ignore results in favour of top player/character main opinion, because they're good/know the character? Well, most top players post stuff about characters that are more baseless than the stuff in here. Leo thinks Zard is top 15, but he doesn't bother backing it up, and yet you'd trust it more than a well thought-out post backed up with our proof in here? Or what about ESAM, who screams to the high heavens that Pikachu is broken and yet he's the only Pika who regularly does well? Top players often have more ridiculous opinions bred by the conditions they play in (IE ESAM, iirc, thinks Mario is the best in the game, which stems from his own issue fighting Marios, and Leo has Serge, a candidate for best Zard, as a cousin) as opposed to any factual proof.

Frankly, I don't think this is the right thread for you. People here don't just go "RESULTS!!!!!!!" no more than anyone (except ironically, you) goes "THEORY!!!!!!!!". Analysis is all about the mix of facts (Results) and your own theory to create a cohesive argument. Ignore one of the two, and it falls apart. You don't understand that.

This thread wasn't for me months ago because of precisely what I said about the blind leading the knowledgeable. I am making my periodic return here only because the general attitude this thread has towards my main is finally acceptable. I know exactly where I belong (you don't if you're going off of like one post) and it isn't Smashboards.

Yes, people do go RESULTS!!! here. Not all the time, but it happens. And no, I don't go THEORY!!! I'm advocating critical reasoning. Critically consider top player opinions and critically consider results and theory; draw your own connections but if you're going RESULTS!!! then you're going to run into some speedbumps (Bayo, Lucina).

Yes, I am saying we should largely ignore results. Largely. But results sure as hell aren't physical proof as to how well a character can preform. At most, they act as a spotlight or a checking tool. I explained why previously. No, this isn't the thread/website for me, but you're stuck with me anyway. And I don't stay around long here; I prefer other places.

 

[Laken64]

Thing is though is that top players say a lot of **** and you need to take everything they say with a pinch of salt. Skill does not necessarily equate to knowledge. Applies to absolutely anything.

Corrin's basic theory is sound and the character is clearly better than anyone in the current C tier. However it is also prone to exaggeration with not a whole lot of evidence nor sound logical reasoning to back it up. This is what bothers me the most. If the character is so good and potentially top tier, as everyone constantly likes to tell me without actually explaining why this so, why does nobody fear her. Could that be because it's not a terribly important matchup for most good characters to learn maybe?
The character is also more shallow than the hype would lead you to believe. Maybe we'll see more development on this front when people learn the counterplay to Pin, I'm sure there must be room to grow. I'd hope so anyway given how much this character is hyped up.

Character is clearly good but surrounded by a lot of hyperbole. This is why I am sceptical of Corrin. She's going to need a hell of a lot of solid placements in the future to cash the cheques some people are writing. I don't think my scepticism is unreasonable.

I don't think anyone here in this thread has overhyped Corrin tbh. Also Corrin has been earning placements within top 24 consistently this season whenever ryuga travels and Frozen putting in work with 9th at royal flush, but I do understand your scepticism because there's yet to be counterplay to pin (honestly I hope it happens quick so Corrin mains can note that pin is a punish tool not a neutral one).

Also on a related note Cosmos is attending Nario saga so we'll see how far he gets.

 

[NairWizard]

The only objective truth here is that that purple text is really freaking hard to read.

Like good God, man, please pick something else.

 

[Floor]

The only objective truth here is that that purple text is really freaking hard to read.

Like good God, man, please pick something else.

Better or too bright?

 

[Illuminose]

i've stated this before, but my issue comes from people not understanding how to interpret results rather than considering results when they discuss things. people take raw placings far too seriously when they should instead emphasize the level of opponents they played, matchups they faced, etc. this especially occurs when discussing matchups because people tend to focus on the pocket of results that best reflects whatever idea they are peddling without taking an holistic approach to evaluate results. the other issue is when people have no actual knowledge other than 'these results occurred'. take a random matchup like cloud vs diddy. pretty much until recently, there would be people who would tell you 'diddy beats cloud' and their reasoning would pretty much consist of 'zero destroys every cloud' with maybe the addition of 'cloud gets gimped'. if you do not understand a matchup further than 'these results occurred', then your input is virtually irrelevant, in my opinion. this also happens when discussing character placements. 'corrin can't be top 10', 'bayonetta can't be the best', 'mario is top 5', whatever. if your primary reasoning for something is results and not a solid understanding/basis in the matchups/theory behind the character, which may (or may not) be represented in results, there's not much you provide to a competitive discussion.

 

[PK Bash]

People do fear Corrin, though, although I don't believe she's potentially top tier. Luckily for us, it's not "She's either top tier or mid tier", high tier is a perfectly reasonable option, and it's likely where she is. Where is she in high tier? I don't know. She could be #14, she could be #17, she could even be #20 or #22. I'm currently optimistic and think she'll fall somewhere in 14-17, but we'll see.

Frozen beat both ANTi and MARSS with Corrin. That's impressive, especially considering those two are top 20 players and he isn't considered a top 20 player (and probably isn't a top 20 player). That's one of her current issues: She doesn't have a top 20 player representing her. Perhaps that will change in the future (Cosmos is fairly young, if he starts to travel more he could really grow as a player, for instance).

Frozen seems to think that she's high tier, at least (once said 12-14, but more recently said that she might not even be top 15, but that's still high tier). Corrin is almost certainly not top tier, and almost certainly worse than characters such as Marth, Lucina, Mewtwo, and Mario. Probably Ryu as well. That puts har at #14 at best. At worst? Hmm... I guess #25, though I highly doubt that.

Of course not.

It's more like a meme, they don't actually think that Mario sucks.

Look man, I agree with you that "results" isn't an argument. What you miss is that "results" and gameplay are proof that those theoretical claims you love to cling onto so tightly, aren't BS.
You can only say something like "Mario sucks" for so long before ALL the real world data dissagrees with you.

I don't think anyone here in this thread has overhyped Corrin tbh. Also Corrin has been earning placements within top 24 consistently this season whenever ryuga travels and Frozen putting in work with 9th at royal flush, but I do understand your scepticism because there's yet to be counterplay to pin (honestly I hope it happens quick so Corrin mains can note that pin is a punish tool not a neutral one).

Also on a related note Cosmos is attending Nario saga so we'll see how far he gets.

I appreciate your reasoned responses.
I should also clarify that nobody in this thread has gone up to me and told me "Corrin is clearly top tier and has a lot of potential". That's mostly what I read in Discord servers or Reddit or Twitter and have heard in my locals, places like that. Not exactly bastions of informed discussion I know, but I hear it too often.

I think both of you and myself share an opinion that Corrin is good. I also appreciate that the character has been putting in work, and it would be remiss and hypocritical of me to ignore that when I'm over here adamantly advocating that Lucas is potentially top 20. However, I need to see more to be convinced that the hype around Corrin is legitimate. Not to discredit any of their achievements or anything, but to convince me, I would be expecting that level of merit more frequently over a large period of time, just to be sure we aren't dealing with another Lucario or Mega Man where the character made a few waves that superseded his actual viability in the long run.

Are there any promising avenues for Corrin's meta to develop do you think? I still perceive the character as relatively shallow currently. Admittedly I could be mistaking "shallow" with "underdeveloped".

Part of my scepticism is to do with that Pin is a good but significantly overrated move so I'm glad a Corrin main acknowledged that.

I have been learning about and watching Corrin quite closely since it was established that Ness gets bopped by her (which is true although subject to exaggeration I think). I will definitely be looking forward to Cosmos' showing at Nairo Saga and seeing how the character develops in the future.

I think ultimately, our opinions aren't massively different, just shaped by different influences.

 

[TDK]

This thread wasn't for me months ago because of precisely what I said about the blind leading the knowledgeable.

Give me specific examples of this, and who you're calling blind.

Critically consider top player opinions and critically consider results and theory; draw your own connections but if you're going RESULTS!!! then you're going to run into some speedbumps (Bayo, Lucina).

Again, top players opinions aren't always right, and shouldn't be treated as the bible. Which players take precedence anyways? ESAM thinks Mario is the best, yet ZeRo doesn't. Who's right? Similarly, Wrath and 6WX have massively different views on Sonic MUs, which in turn are different from other top sonics. Which one takes precedence?

You can say you're advocating critical reasoning but you're really just advocating parroting top player/character main thoughts. This "Shut up and accept other people's opinion" attitude is detrimental to discussion.

 

[Floor]

My 2 cents on Corrin since it's topical.

My experience: Lower level player, TO for a 30 man weekly, non- Corrin user.

My verdict: High tier; somewhere in the middle of high tier. Her sword and aerials apply the similar effect Marcina's aerials; they are quite dominate and hard to get past. When you look at the rest of high tier, I can see how she offers more than a character like Greninja.

Give me specific examples of this, and who you're calling blind. Again, top players opinions aren't always right, and shouldn't be treated as the bible. Which players take precedence anyways? ESAM thinks Mario is the best, yet ZeRo doesn't. Who's right? Similarly, Wrath and 6WX have massively different views on Sonic MUs, which in turn are different from other top sonics. Which one takes precedence? You can say you're advocating critical reasoning but you're really just advocating parroting top player/character main thoughts. This "Shut up and accept other people's opinion" attitude is detrimental to discussion.

I never told any one to shut up and accept opinions. I'm parroting top player thoughts? I wouldn't call it that; but I would have never imagined anyone would disagree with the implication that perhaps ZeRo knows more about the game than any of us do and that perhaps people would take weigh his view heavier than John Smith's.

Which to player takes precedence? Who is right? That's up to you, the individual, to think critically about and decide who may be more accurate. If no top player of your main is claiming your character is top tier, then you should strongly consider if you're satisfied your theory is holding up. If ALL the top players are saying Bayonetta is the best on the game, perhaps they might be on top something; afterall, they put 1,000s of more hours into this game then any of us have.

Give me specific examples of this, and who you're calling blind Gosh, is the V2 of this thread still around? I was never very active back then, but pardon the lack of a SPECIFIC example and I hope instead this will suffice: Every Lucina discussion of V2; probability would suggest less than 10% of people mained Lucina or use her extensively, yet they pointed to results to shut me and my Lucina buddies from saying "I think she's close to Marth" or "I think she's high tier". Non Marcina mains explaining to Marcina mains how different the characters are... that's how it was back then.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm does that mean discussion shouldn't be held if someone is theorycrafting but doesn't have the results to back it up? I mean I play zard and only zard so I obviously don't know how other characters stack against him or each other since I don't play them but does that make any discussion I start up any less valid than anyone else's?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Corrin offers more than greninja? Can you explain that to me? I don't really know alot about greninja but i always viewed him as a solid character which lacks(like many characters) a Top30 rep to really shine.

Floor

 

[Floor]

Corrin offers more than greninja? Can you explain that to me? I don't really know alot about greninja but i always viewed him as a solid character which lacks(like many characters) a Top30 rep to really shine.

Floor

I don't know much about either character either, which is why I labeled my verdict for what it was; low level and lacking Corrin (and Greninja) info.

I would say both are certainly high tier; I can see how Corrin's disjoints could give her an edge in some matchups the same why how disjoints benefit Marcina.

Mix that with some instapin, don't-touch-me-moves like nair and bair, and I could see how her neutral could be intimidating to most characters in mid tier while perhaps greninja might lose to some in midteir as he's not as well rounded.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Frihetsanka]

I should also clarify that nobody in this thread has gone up to me and told me "Corrin is clearly top tier and has a lot of potential".

Yes, a lot of people here seem to underrate Corrin (though I haven't heard "Corrin is a mid tier" that much recently, so perhaps fewer people believe that now). I also haven't seen that many say that she's top tier, and I think it's clear that she's not. She does have potential, but so does characters like Luigi, Olimar, and Captain Falcon. She's high tier.

Not to discredit any of their achievements or anything, but to convince me, I would be expecting that level of merit more frequently over a large period of time, just to be sure we aren't dealing with another Lucario or Mega Man where the character made a few waves that superseded his actual viability in the long run.

Cosmos, Ryuga, and Frozen frequently perform well when they do play. They fairly often beat notable players (or come close to beating notable players) in tournaments. Unfortunately, neither Ryuga nor Frozen are quite top 30 players (maybe not even top 50 players, hard to tell, though they're obviously both really good). Cosmos might be, but he rarely travels due to personal issues (restrictive parents).

Are there any promising avenues for Corrin's meta to develop do you think? I still perceive the character as relatively shallow currently.

I personally don't think Corrin, as a character, will develop all that much. She's not Bayonetta or Mewtwo with lots of hidden techs. Corrin rewards players who are good at the game, not necessarily good at the character. She'd make a great secondary, actually. Part of the issue is that Cloud and Lucina are kind of similar-ish and are better in general than Corrin is. Imagine if Cloud weren't in the game, then I think we'd see a lot more Corrin players (especially if Marth/Lucina were never buffed).

Part of my scepticism is to do with that Pin is a good but significantly overrated move so I'm glad a Corrin main acknowledged that.

It's still an S-tier move and quite possibly the second best side-B in the game (after Bayonetta's). It has counter-play, and it's not a broken move.

I have been learning about and watching Corrin quite closely since it was established that Ness gets bopped by her (which is true although subject to exaggeration I think).

I think it's a 40-60 MU for Ness, super annoying but still not quite 35-65 level. Ness still has a solid chance of winning, though it's rough.

I will definitely be looking forward to Cosmos' showing at Nairo Saga and seeing how the character develops in the future.

I hope he does well, but, y'know, sometimes even ZeRo drowns at 49th place.

 

[Nu~]

Until side B counterplay is developed and people start forcing Corrin to approach (You may have scary aerials like Marth, but how are you getting to me?) I wouldn't set it in stone that Corrin is a high tier.

Char has good buttons in the air and a devastations punish game. Unfortunately, a lack of ground tools, awful mobility, and an early plateauing of growth will hinder them imo

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Thing is though is that top players say a lot of **** and you need to take everything they say with a pinch of salt. Skill does not necessarily equate to knowledge. Applies to absolutely anything.

Corrin's basic theory is sound and the character is clearly better than anyone in the current C tier. However it is also prone to exaggeration with not a whole lot of evidence nor sound logical reasoning to back it up. This is what bothers me the most. If the character is so good and potentially top tier, as everyone constantly likes to tell me without actually explaining why this so, why does nobody fear her. Could that be because it's not a terribly important matchup for most good characters to learn maybe?
The character is also more shallow than the hype would lead you to believe. Maybe we'll see more development on this front when people learn the counterplay to Pin, I'm sure there must be room to grow. I'd hope so anyway given how much this character is hyped up.

Character is clearly good but surrounded by a lot of hyperbole. This is why I am sceptical of Corrin. She's going to need a hell of a lot of solid placements in the future to cash the cheques some people are writing. I don't think my scepticism is unreasonable.

Correct me if this was debunked but Dtilt trip chance is closer to 33% I believe - if you use three in quick succession one of them is guaranteed to trip. The difficulty of course comes from not knowing which one it will be.
Also Ness' ability to frametrap rolls with SH nair on reaction is important to some setups; aside from setting up easier jablocks because people are already holding down their Tech button to roll, it usually will give you the weak hit which can set up 50/50s and other things. Nobody really uses it much though because most of us usually punish rolls with a grab. I feel Ness' frametraps are underexplored and underutilised by most of us (myself included) and we need to look into these more, but here isn't really the place for that.

It could be 33% that actually sounds more accurate now that I think about it. Usually I'll use two quick ones then assume trip and use FSmash at worse I get punished with a quick move, at best I get major damage or a kill. I also agree Ness' frame traps are very under explored, given how much knockback alot of his moves have I know there is potential there.

Not to distract from the conversation at hand I've already expressed how I feel so I won't repost anything.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He gets some good top level wins mostly thanks to Elegant but his results are a bit underwhelming at large stacked tournaments.

This sounds kinda contradictory.

 

[Locke 06]

Correct me if this was debunked but Dtilt trip chance is closer to 33% I believe - if you use three in quick succession one of them is guaranteed to trip. The difficulty of course comes from not knowing which one it will be.

That's not how probability works.

Ness dtilt is also unsafe on hit if the opponent presses a fast enough button.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Corrin ground game is worse then Cloud. He/She has no safe ground buttons on block.

How are you guys sweating this character so hard?

 

[verbatim]

Most of the people that played Brawl and Melee for a living before Smash 4 came out settled on a main long before any DLC characters, and are heavily incentivised not to drop the (presumably) top tier they're doing well with, leading to a lot less representation for DLC characters relative to how good they are.


Bayonetta and Cloud bucked the trend by virtue of being so incredibly good (even moreso before the nerfs), but even then, if you look at the top players who use DLC characters there's a clear pattern.

• Tweek, Rich Brown, and Trela (Mii Swordfighter lol) played not top tiers before switching to Cloud
• M2K, Leo, and Abadango dropped their mains after significant nerfs
• Captain Zack, Komorikiri, Ned, Ryuga, Cosmos, JK, Tyroy, Wadi, etc were not top TOP Brawl players or did not play the game competitively.

The only real standout exceptions are Taiheta, who plays his Brawl main, 9B, who went idk --> Ryu --> Bayonetta, and Salem, who went ZSS/Villager --> Bayonetta.


Most of them weren't top Brawl players, and those who were had weird circumstances that led them to change mains to a new top tier in general. In fact, I'd argue that it is because most of the top players from Brawl locked into characters in the base game that many of the players that have breakout preformances w/ DLC characters make up most of their results, and that things might look a lot different if the game came with everyone unlocked.


I said that the "if a top player played my character he'd be high tier" argument is bad, and it is, but I think it's still worth pointing out. 1.1.6 Bayonetta and 1.1.6 Cloud have done infinitely better on the national and supernational scale than they did in 1.1.4, when they were objectively better/best characters in the game and had much more of an element of suprise behind them.


Corrin's not Cloud, or Bayo, or M2, or Ryu, the later two of which took a very long time to start showing up at higher levels of play after they came out, but I would still wager that their presence will be "better" in the long term than it is now.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Theory AND results strongly suggest DK being better than Bowser and clearly so. That's about as objective as it gets. What fascinates me is how anyone can even think Bowser compares to DK. Just look at top level play of both characters its right there in front of your eyes. Please tell, which Bowser has ever come close to being as threatening as Hikaru's DK?

Also Corrin is not good at all. She's another case where people are just clueless for some reason. And time wont do her any good, she lacks depth.

 

[Floor]

Theory AND results strongly suggest DK being better than Bowser and clearly so. That's about as objective as it gets. What fascinates me is how anyone can even think Bowser compares to DK. Just look at top level play of both characters its right there in front of your eyes. Please tell, which Bowser has ever come close to being as threatening as Hikaru's DK?

Also Corrin is not good at all. She's another case where people are just clueless for some reason. And time wont do her any good, she lacks depth.

Both are heavy. Both are slow. Both are grapplers with hoo-hahs and 30% grab combos. Both play grounded. Both recoveries act similarly while Bowsers gives more height. Both have intangiblity on certain body parts during certain moves. Seems pretty comparable to me.

I'll give Corrin time; the same things were said about Lucina and Corrin has some promising players looking at her

 

[Rizen]

's frame data takes a Din's Fire on 's.
/
Jumpsquat 6/8
Jab1 5/7
DA 9/11
FTilt 9/10
Utilt 5/11
Dtilt 7/10
Fsmash 22/22
Usmash 14/16
Dsmash 11/10
Grab 8/9
Nair 10/8
Fair 18/11
Bair 7/9
Uair 6/9
Dair 14/17
And DK has significantly less lag too.

 

[ARISTOS]

Results should always be taken with a grain of salt and with consideration to the myriad of factors that exist within a placing, such as:

• Who did X beat along the way?
• What MUs were in play?
• How has the player been today (sloppy, excellent, etc.)
• How does this compare to previous placings?

And for specific characters:

• How big is the playerbase?
• Where are the best players doing the best?
• and so on

It's important to note all of this because it's instrumental in being able to clear out some of the fog that can distort character strength. Does it matter that a Yoshi is getting first if that tournament is from Chile? Maybe, if we've seen that some of the best Chileans can compete with the best in Mexico, a region known to be strong. On the other hand, a Yoshi ending up on 5th on the Tristate PR is huge and would tell a lot about the strength of the character, because Tristate is known for its players.

My issue with Smash theory is twofold:

• General playerbase's theory is often quite poor and full of generalities
• Tends to hold onto set ideas for too long

For the first, you can look at any reddit thread, but the second is my bigger issue. Once people have set in their minds something one way or the other (this tends to be that a character is good rather than bad) people refuse to change it even when the evidence is staring them in the face (in this case, a long history of X doing well or poorly). Theory is always meant to model the (Smash) world, and models that can't predict the world accurately should be changed up.

But theory can be great for extrapolating into the future when done well, and is generally important to have. Just don't be a stickler for your ideas. Be willing to change it if the evidence doesn't match.

Which gets to this:

Every Lucina discussion of V2; probability would suggest less than 10% of people mained Lucina or use her extensively, yet they pointed to results to shut me and my Lucina buddies from saying "I think she's close to Marth" or "I think she's high tier".

People who used pure placings to say Lucina was bad are not smart and doing bad analyses.

However, there were many people here who went into far more detail about why they thought Lucina was not equal, and it had nothing to do with results.

In fact, you are using results now to justify that she is equal, even though this could easily be a phase for the character, much akin to a .

Remember, think long and wide for results, meaning:

• Long: Over a long period of time
• Wide: Over a wide pool of high level players (not necessarily top level!)

TL'DR: blah blah blah have a coke & some watermelon it's summer in NA.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Both are heavy. Both are slow. Both are grapplers with hoo-hahs and 30% grab combos. Both play grounded. Both recoveries act similarly while Bowsers gives more height. Both have intangiblity on certain body parts during certain moves. Seems pretty comparable to me.

I'll give Corrin time; the same things were said about Lucina and Corrin has some promising players looking at her

Nice rhetorics but there's no substance because you lack insight.

You said you were about critical thinking, but you seem to be more about sophistry.

What I did was say they werent comparable characters in terms of the level of threat they constitute when played at the highest level, I didn't say they weren't comparable characters. There is a big difference. Two characters can be very similar, and yet one can be top and the other bottom. Do you actually think the similarities you listed imply DK and Bowser are similar in terms of viability? They don't. Oh and unlike Bowser DK actually has an aerial game btw.

Its cool that you are giving Corrin time, but she isn't Lucina. Yeah Lucina got underrestimated. But that was because of Marth and because of how bad she was at release. Now where is Corrins Marth? And where are the buffs?

 

[my_T]

DK is not better than Bowser. They're strengths and weaknesses differ in certain areas. DK having an aerial game doesn't solve all of his problems

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DK is not better than Bowser. They're strengths and weaknesses differ in certain areas. DK having an aerial game doesn't solve all of his problems

You cant just say this without giving a reason. DK has top tier frame data, a neutral that rivals Marcina's, an earlier kill confirm, a frame 3 combo breaker, and super armor on demand, he has plenty of top tier traits. The only thing that makes Bowser relevant is his kill confirm. Why do people insist hes better?

 

[my_T]

Its cool that you are giving Corrin time, but she isn't Lucina. Yeah Lucina got underrestimated. But that was because of Marth and because of how bad she was at release. Now where is Corrins Marth? And where are the buffs?

Lol this is not why Lucina was underestimated.

The community dumped on Lucina because she didn't have tipper properties like Marth which wasn't a good argument because landing tippers isn't always guarenteed and Marths sourspots are noticeably worse in terms of shield safety and knockback. Lucina doesn't suffer from the sourspot properties like Marth does because she doesn't have them, she has consistency with every hit. Marths tipper properties and Lucinas lack of tipper properties both have their pros and cons, neither is better to have than the other I would say.

People also claimed that she had less range which proven false.

A lot of people also used her lack of results as an argument which was stupid because she didn't have any good rep to get results until recently.

Marth being in the game was also a terrible excuse for the previously low opinion of Lucina. Marth's presence does not somehow make Lucina mid or low tier.

She also received similar or the same buffs as Marth.

All of this was just a combination of people being result junkies, and/or bad at analyzing characters, and/or ignorance of her character.

As for Corrin, she doesn't need buffs because she's already good as opposed to Marcina who were not that good before their buffs.

 

[Kofu]

You cant just say this without giving a reason. DK has top tier frame data, a neutral that rivals Marcina's, an earlier kill confirm, a frame 3 combo breaker, and super armor on demand, he has plenty of top tier traits. The only thing that makes Bowser relevant is his kill confirm. Why do people insist hes better?

Bowser isn't complete garbage while landing and getting back to the stage.

He's still really bad with those things but he's better than DK.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't think 2017 VoiD is a top 15 player. Gameplay wise he doesn't even feel top 20 anymore.
If you're reading this and happen to follow Melee, I'd say his situation and playstyle are very similar to what's going on with Westballz.

edit: It's late and I'm bored, so let me let me elaborate.
When you look at Mr. R's gameplay you'll notice that every player besides Anti and Dabuz cracks crack due to his pressure. He doesn't always choose the safest options(bad rolls, bad bouncing fish placement, bad nairs, etc) but almost every single one he selects exerts another layer of pressure on opponents and somehow goes unpunished.

Here's a classic situation i can give as an example:
https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=49s
Rising Fair>BF on bigger bodied characters and fastfallers abuses their often poor escape options and need to keep a jump to survive pressure offstage. It's technically not true at most percents and can be airdodged through(which causes the Sheik to lose stage control). On paper, you should rarely go for it and should instead elect to retreat to stage after the Fair or just choose another more damaging option. However, Mr. R constantly chooses options like this to force you into high pressure potential frame trap scenarios where you feel forced to get out and press something immediately. This, coupled with the fact that he's probably top 3 at reading players' habits in disadvantage, allows him to extend his hits further than almost any player despite not having a very strong true combo game. I've personally started abusing this against members of the cast like because of how worth the risk it is.

I'll add a few more examples so you can better understand what this means:
https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=1m13s
He throws hikaru offstage and forces him to start choosing options immediately by throwing in a trump. in the entire sequence he ends up getting a sizeable 48% of damage, but he attempts to continue his pressure with a Bair>BF and nearly dies for it. That willingness to make near spot on aggro reads and take "not really but kinda" risks to potentially extend advantage is both the reason he's probably top 5 in the world and the reason he tends to struggle making comebacks.

https://youtu.be/ltaS3QTuNt8?t=2m20s
He hits hikaru with a Fair and overextends for a seemingly random BF that would normally only work as an airdodge read. Though it was way off mark, that single option puts fear into the opponent and tells them "this guy's nuts, i can't choose X option in Y situation anymore." The moment they start thinking that way, your pressure has succeeded and they are playing the game at your pace.

VoiD does not have this. He saw higher success in our more defensive meta because he could passively whiff punish everyone without ever hard committing to an approach. The guy rarely uses shield to keep full access to walking options and tries to stay as close as possible while still being out of range for hit after you swing. His brutal punish game made up for his lackluster neutral and tendency to take a lot of damage with such a squishy character, but now that people are actively dictating what options he cannot choose it has become much more difficult for him to get in and score those crucial hits.
Fact is that you can't react to everything. Not every move can be punished. If you're always playing at another person's pace, you will constantly be forced into unreactable 50/50s and situations where you flat out get outrewarded and lose. The best way to stop that is by taking away their options.

VoiD also tends to drop to random-ish characters more often because he's not smothering the opponents with that dominant "I am better, my character is better, play on my terms" playstyle that Mr. R does. So they can run free and essentially do whatever they want. A lot easier to poke holes in a squishy character's moderately rewarding defense than it is to get away from a safe, aggressive character's offense. Some top tier characters can get away with having their strengths abused to snuff out the strengths of other characters without knowing the matchup as well(Rosa jab vs DK is a good example). Mr. R doesn't need to know matchups nearly as often because his playstyle makes up for some lacking knowledge.
VoiD's results should go back up when he stops playing like a mid tier and starts using her like a broken character.

Edit 2:
I noticed this back when he played ZeRo at G4, I believe, but his set vs Mr. R at Royal Flush made me sure of it. This set is nowhere to be seen on Youtube because Smash Studios hasn't posted the VODs, but here it is:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/142858680
It was enjoyable to watch, but wasn't really close. Picture perfect showing of the difference between waiting for opportunities vs making them.

 

[Nu~]

Lol this is not why Lucina was underestimated.

The community dumped on Lucina because she didn't have tipper properties like Marth which wasn't a good argument because landing tippers isn't always guarenteed and Marths sourspots are noticeably worse in terms of shield safety and knockback. Lucina doesn't suffer from the sourspot properties like Marth does because she doesn't have them, she has consistency with every hit. Marths tipper properties and Lucinas lack of tipper properties both have their pros and cons, neither is better to have than the other I would say.

People also claimed that she had less range which proven false.

A lot of people also used her lack of results as an argument which was stupid because she didn't have any good rep to get results until recently.

Marth being in the game was also a terrible excuse for the previously low opinion of Lucina. Marth's presence does not somehow make Lucina mid or low tier.

She also received similar or the same buffs as Marth.

All of this was just a combination of people being result junkies, and/or bad at analyzing characters, and/or ignorance of her character.

As for Corrin, she doesn't need buffs because she's already good as opposed to Marcina who were not that good before their buffs.

You do realize he isn't refuting any of these things, right?

Yes, Lucina was underestimated because of Marth. Pretty sure he isn't saying it was a good reason to underestimate her lol.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Theory AND results strongly suggest DK being better than Bowser and clearly so. That's about as objective as it gets. What fascinates me is how anyone can even think Bowser compares to DK. Just look at top level play of both characters its right there in front of your eyes. Please tell, which Bowser has ever come close to being as threatening as Hikaru's DK?

Also Corrin is not good at all. She's another case where people are just clueless for some reason. And time wont do her any good, she lacks depth.

It's funny how much people said the same thing about Bowser when Nairo was busting him out and there was a drought in DK results until Tweek picked him up and Hikaru came to Civil War. Recency bias is a powerful drug, ain't it?

Personally, ever since he got buffed I've always thought Bowser was better, for the reasons I listed earlier.

As for DK's aerial game, it's pretty much just bair. It's a good bair, mind you, but really that's all of his safe aerial options. Nair comes close but doesn't quite cut it, it's a bit too stubby. But not every character needs a crazy air game to be effective, take Ryu for example. Why worry about a weaker air game when you win conditions are on the ground and you have means of dealing with other character's air games while remaining grounded?

Also, Bowser has a notably better disadvantage state than DK. Better landing options (options at all really), and better tools for getting off the ledge. I'd take a slightly weaker neutral over actually being able to land any day. It means that even if my neutral is weaker, I have more chances to be in neutral.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And it goes on and on and on and onnnn

Strangers waiting
looking down the boulevard
and shadows searching
in the niiiiight!

Seriously I'm all for discussion but in some cases it seems like the schoolyard argument that 'x character is just better because (reasons).'
While the argument is far better than this, has far better reasoning, and provides far better examples when you break it down that's mostly what it boils down to.
On a side note i'm off my ADHD medication but that isn't a big deal because I don't drink coffee.