Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[C0rvus]

I don't really think that's true. Maybe it wasn't to the same extent as in this game, but there have been plenty of cases of lower tiered characters having decent-to-even matchups against good characters. Think of how hard Mewtwo or Roy or Ness could combo spacies in Melee, or how well Link fairs against Marth for a lower-mid tier. Even Bowser has some MU specific things that Fox players need to be wary of (up throw up air not working, ledge attack clipping his recovery, etc.) Brawl I'm less aware of, but there were some weird characters who seemed to have a decent time against the Ice Climbers (Yoshi comes to mind).

Anyhow, forgive me if this has been discussed at length, but what is the consensus on our froggy friend post-Greninja saga? Basically every high-level Greninja on the planet showed up, and his results were all over the map. Is he a character with room to grow, or a washed out mid tier not worth dwelling on?

 

[TDK]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

100 entrant MSM ft. Locus, Waveguider, Abadango, Komorikiri, Edge, Larry Lurr, and Ranai.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I don't really think that's true. Maybe it wasn't to the same extent as in this game, but there have been plenty of cases of lower tiered characters having decent-to-even matchups against good characters. Think of how hard Mewtwo or Roy or Ness could combo spacies in Melee, or how well Link fairs against Marth for a lower-mid tier. Even Bowser has some MU specific things that Fox players need to be wary of (up throw up air not working, ledge attack clipping his recovery, etc.) Brawl I'm less aware of, but there were some weird characters who seemed to have a decent time against the Ice Climbers (Yoshi comes to mind).

Anyhow, forgive me if this has been discussed at length, but what is the consensus on our froggy friend post-Greninja saga? Basically every high-level Greninja on the planet showed up, and his results were all over the map. Is he a character with room to grow, or a washed out mid tier not worth dwelling on?

Peach VS Ice Climbers in Brawl is another example, it's just the amount of top tier characters with MU's like these is more noticeable in Smash 4. Regarding , I like to think he still has plenty to show off, and his player base is nothing to laugh at.

 

[ぱみゅ]

In Brawl most times characters had losing but manageable matchups: Diddy had difficulties against Jigglypuff, and Sheik was another of those characters decent at handling and abusing MK's physics. Ike was said to have an even matchup against Snake, as well as DK vs Marth. Then Peach arguably beat Olimar and was very difficult to grab for ICs.
Those are the ones I remember from skimming through the tier list.

But another factor that imo contributes a lot into matchups not feeling as hopeless as they used to is the two-stock meta giving single-use tools and tricks a lot more impact in the results.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I have been thinking, Smash 4 seems to be the only Smash game where a decent amount of top tier characters have a weird MU lurking in the lower tiers, i.e. VS , VS , VS and until a certain amount time, VS .

vs is another matchup I thought I'd point out where all Mewtwos seem to agree either joking or otherwise that the blue bird beats the legendary solidly. I'd be interested to see examples of this matchup at any level of play from the SSBWorld site.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

vs is another matchup I thought I'd point out where all Mewtwos seem to agree either joking or otherwise that the blue bird beats the legendary solidly. I'd be interested to see examples of this matchup at any level of play from the SSBWorld site.

Didn't AC have a close set with Abadango before?

 

[Nobie]

Re: the discussion of Marios successfully up-smashing Clouds

The first thing I think of only technically includes Mario, which is that Mario + Dedede team from Umebura Japan Major.

There's a clip of Mario flooding a forward smashing Dedede and killing a short hopping Cloud. While the Cloud wasn't a super top player, I found it notable because the Cloud was caught completely off guard in a way somewhat similar to when you see Ally run up and up smash someone who decided to hop.

Possibly due to Cloud's range and overall speed, players short hop with him frequently thinking that it's safe. And because of those properties, he is pretty safe most of the time. But the lack of a reliable front-facing poke and perhaps just complacency means good ol' Mario noggin can still get through.

Moving onto another point, watching doubles at Greninja Saga made me wonder just how much rage impacts the doubles meta. Namely, I'm thinking of how rage interacts with the notion of a stock tank. In previous games, living to absurdly high percents on your first stock meant giving more longevity on your tema. In Smash 4, it means you can get earlier kills. I didn't keep track or anything, but I get the feeling Ranai took more than his fair share of stocks just by being at 150%+ and dropping some heavy objects.

 

[Locke 06]

Re: the discussion of Marios successfully up-smashing Clouds

The first thing I think of only technically includes Mario, which is that Mario + Dedede team from Umebura Japan Major.

There's a clip of Mario flooding a forward smashing Dedede and killing a short hopping Cloud. While the Cloud wasn't a super top player, I found it notable because the Cloud was caught completely off guard in a way somewhat similar to when you see Ally run up and up smash someone who decided to hop.

The issue is that short hopping/jumping is not "technically commital" as you still have your aerials, airdodge, double jump, etc.

Most players are taught/instinctively think "who goes first, loses" in neutral. You want to use your safe pokes to open up your opponent. Challenging jumps / landings, imo, is one of the more difficult skills to learn, because Cloud could double jump>late DAir confirm into imagination and counter your anti-air, but he won't.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I have been thinking, Smash 4 seems to be the only Smash game where a decent amount of top tier characters have a weird MU lurking in the lower tiers, i.e. VS , VS , VS and until a certain amount time, VS .

vs , vs , vs /. vs , vs , vs , vs , vs , vs

Ike is good guys

 

[Ark of Silence101]

vs , vs , vs /. vs , vs , vs , vs , vs , vs

Ike is good guys

I want to believe this, yet ever since the release of the final 3 DLC characters, he has just been going on the decline and if it weren't for Ryo, San and Nojinko, he would have been probably been even more neutered than he already in terms of representation.

 

[TDK]

Mr. Con Con 2-0 Elegant

I'm not sure what to make of this. Elegant's combo game is better, but Con Con just outplayed him.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Mr. Con Con 2-0 Elegant

I'm not sure what to make of this. Elegant's combo game is better, but Con Con just outplayed him.

Never thought I'd see Elegant get outplayed in the ditto. This is the first time he's lost to Con Con right?

 

[Yonder]

vs , vs , vs /. vs , vs , vs , vs , vs , vs

Ike is good guys

Yeah, in Super Theory Bros For Wii U. When was the last time any of this was even seen? In theory maybe he does well in some of these matchups, but the results don't say otherwise.

Luigi has good theory too against these guys: But has only been seen vs Bayo.

Luigi also may have a hidden solid advantage in complete theory and based on how much I've played the matchup at err...locals...



(I think Luigi beats Pikachu and Fox solidly though. Mario and Diddy will dissolve to even matchups/Mario Diddy favor maybe eventually)


Sorry off track!

Ike is to me, a lower mid tier until someone can garner any sort of results with him again. The power creep with swordies Cloud, patch Marth + Lucina didn't do him any favors.

I think even Roy has better results atm with 1-2 good players using him. All of Ike's main dropped him aside from sometimes Ryo. Sometimes.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Yeah, in Super Theory Bros For Wii U. When was the last time any of this was even seen? In theory maybe he does well in some of these matchups, but the results don't say otherwise.

Luigi has good theory too against these guys: But has only been seen vs Bayo.

Luigi also may have a hidden solid advantage in complete theory and based on how much I've played the matchup at err...locals...



(I think Luigi beats Pikachu and Fox solidly though. Mario and Diddy will dissolve to even matchups/Mario Diddy favor maybe eventually)


Sorry off track!

Ike is to me, a lower mid tier until someone can garner any sort of results with him again. The power creep with swordies Cloud, patch Marth + Lucina didn't do him any favors.

I think even Roy has better results atm with 1-2 good players using him. All of Ike's main dropped him aside from sometimes Ryo. Sometimes.

Ryo, San and Nojinko still haven't given up and are still hanging in there. As for , only Hyper and to a lesser extent CloudY(now know as Captain Levi) are giving him noteworthy results, I'd argue Kakpu is the best at giving him results in Europe, but apparently he isn't considered to be notable enough.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah, in Super Theory Bros For Wii U. When was the last time any of this was even seen? In theory maybe he does well in some of these matchups, but the results don't say otherwise.

Luigi has good theory too against these guys: But has only been seen vs Bayo.

Luigi also may have a hidden solid advantage in complete theory and based on how much I've played the matchup at err...locals...



(I think Luigi beats Pikachu and Fox solidly though. Mario and Diddy will dissolve to even matchups/Mario Diddy favor maybe eventually)


Sorry off track!

Ike is to me, a lower mid tier until someone can garner any sort of results with him again. The power creep with swordies Cloud, patch Marth + Lucina didn't do him any favors.

I think even Roy has better results atm with 1-2 good players using him. All of Ike's main dropped him aside from sometimes Ryo. Sometimes.

Ike has had decent placements in major tournaments in 2016 ranging from top 8 to top 32, most of the top 8s are thanks to San while other players like Ryo, SM, Rango, and Waldo contributed as well. Roy had no such representation that year, and this year there's only two relevant Roy's and neither have made any waves on a regional or national level.

None of this is to say that Roy sucks but Ike has the better results and theory, as of right now.

 

[HoSmash4]

Cloud beats Bayonetta

 

[Kofu]

On the topic of , Elegant apparently eliminated Ranai from the tournament (after Komo and Ranai's Marth/Lucina exhibition match).

 

[TDK]

MSM 98 (100 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Komorikiri
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Elegant
4th: Nicko
5th: Ranai
5th: Locus
7th: Aarvark
7th: Edge

Notably outside of top 8:
Waveguider - lost to Larry Lurr and Aarvark
Larry Lurr - lost to Nicko and Elegant

Cloud beats Bayonetta

On the topic of this - Does anyone else feel like Bayonetta's matchups against the top tiers are starting to get worse?

 

[ぱみゅ]

On the topic of this - Does anyone else feel like Bayonetta's matchups against the top tiers are starting to get worse?

Are you implying that top players are developing counterplay and realizing the character is not as broken as the HUGE majority believes?

 

[TDK]

Are you implying that top players are developing counterplay and realizing the character is not as broken as the HUGE majority believes?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. At top level, Bayonetta does not appear to be the best character in the game.

 

[Y2Kay]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. At top level, Bayonetta does not appear to be the best character in the game.

bruh I think that question was rhetorical

 

[bc1910]

Anyhow, forgive me if this has been discussed at length, but what is the consensus on our froggy friend post-Greninja saga? Basically every high-level Greninja on the planet showed up, and his results were all over the map. Is he a character with room to grow, or a washed out mid tier not worth dwelling on?

No Greninja in top 8 is a very disappointing result, and it eclipses the fact that 5 Greninjas made it to top 32.

I still think Greninja lacks the top level representation that almost every other high tier can boast. Lea, Some and others are of course skilled players, but Greninja is not represented by anyone on the level of ZeRo, Dabuz, Ally and the like. This is holding the character back at top and even high level. However, it raises the question of why he has no top level representation. These people play to win, and they're not picking Greninja. It's been going on for long enough for us to consider that top players have settled on him being not worth using.

I don't believe Greninja is a mid tier. In my experience, he has an excellent matchup against almost every character outside the top 20 and a few arguably within that group (Falcon, Luigi, Lucas). He is fast, powerful and offers far better kill confirms than most if not all of the mid tiers. That said, the label of "washed out high tier" could still be applied to him. We've had over a year of disappointing Greninja results which leave him stalled in the 20-25 group. Note that "disappointing" is relative to a character like Greninja of whom people have high expectations; his results are extremely impressive by mid-tier standards.

I believe the character still has room to grow, but his raw frame data may preclude him from ever reaching top 10 or even top 15. In my opinion, Greninja needs top level representation to revolutionise his metagame. For too long his progression has been focused on optimising combos, when in my opinion we need to be working on optimising neutral and advantage (specifically ledge trapping, which Greninja has the tools to be fantastic at) against top tiers. Only then can we truly answer the question of how good he is. I maintain that though he may never reach top tier, he is far better in theory than he seems to be in practice and a top level player could unlock some of this potential.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

until a certain amount time, VS .

Why?

Never thought I'd see Elegant get outplayed in the ditto. This is the first time he's lost to Con Con right?

Not quite.

 

[NotLiquid]

Cloud beats Bayonetta

Even Zack believes this is the only matchup Bayonetta loses.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I thought it was commonly agreed that Bayonetta beat Cloud. What caused a change in perception?

 

[NotLiquid]

I thought it was commonly agreed that Bayonetta beat Cloud. What caused a change in perception?

Cloud loses off-stage but if I'd have to make an educated guess just about the only thing Bayonetta has to respond to Cloud's superior frame data and well-ranged burst options is Witch Time. He's going to have to play patiently but that's something a lot of the top players are good at and Cloud reaps major rewards off of applying pressure. Personally I'd say it's one of the more volatile matchups she has.

 

[HoSmash4]

1. Every relevant character can gimp Cloud but barely any character can give Bayo's landings hell like Cloud's sword can. Due to Clouds high air sped and the fact he'll be most likely drifting towards the ledge, a vertical frametrap such a witch twist that has no hitbox underneath it, Bayonetta will not be able to cover both no airdodge and air dodge offstage simultaneously to continue the edgeguard phase
2.Cloud has very stong punishes on landing lag from special move accumulation, and Bayonetta has similar frame data to Cloud but without any sort of disjoint of her normals,
3.This makes it an uphill battle in neutral where either character can punish commitment but Bayonetta has to approach in some form due to Limit.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Waldo is a notable Ike too btw. He just doesn't travel out of NY but is on the same level as San for example.

It's nice to see that people slowly figure out that Bayo has losing matchups.

 

[|RK|]

Waldo is a notable Ike too btw. He just doesn't travel out of NY but is on the same level as San for example.

It's nice to see that people slowly figure out that Bayo has losing matchups.

People always overstate the strength of a character at first. Sonic, for example.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So Ally now thinks Mario vs Cloud is now even and Zack thinks Bayo now loses to Cloud.

Never thought the professional opinion on these MU's would change so drastically...but you cant argue with results.

 

[Illuminose]

i think zack is just not that good at certain matchups, and considering that salem doesn't attend many tournaments and 9b is japanese so people don't pay attention that's about all we see. he's not good against diddy, cloud, or ness, for example, matchups commonly seen as ~even for bayo (at least among people who play either character . i think this definitely screws with the perception people have of those mus and how they are supposed to play out. zack tends to hit a lot of buttons and try to put himself in situations where he can get a punish, which is a decent strategy but doesn't cut it in some matchups, especially against diddy and cloud where throwing buttons is going to get you run over. those matchups are tests of patience and tenacity more than anything else, on both ends, and playing them otherwise tends to generate poor results. case in point: while zack has lost to multiple top clouds without really taking sets, salem is virtually dead even with tweek (cba to check set count but they go back and forth, each set is usually very close) and beat komo/leo. while zack gets run over by zero, salem has forced him to very close sets and even taken sets before. 9b doesn't really struggle particularly hard with diddy from what i've seen, though he hasn't played zero or zinoto (has played edge though). i am positive the difference is a playstyle factor.

a general rule of thumb is that just because a top player has an opinion doesn't automatically make that opinion true or even valid. salem, zero, and zack all think bayo beats diddy. could they be right? sure, and i understand the line of thinking fully as someone who has pretty extensive matchup experience. however, i think most people who play the matchup on a frequent basis (i.e. people who know what they are talking about) consider bayo vs diddy ~even. ally may have (at one time, anecdotally) stated that cloud vs mario is even. zack may have stated that cloud beats bayo. as i've already shown in other posts and this one, there is no pattern of results that particularly shows either. one player does not represent professional opinion, in this case whatsoever because almost every single other professional player of their characters does not agree with them.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Lea, Some and others are of course skilled players, but Greninja is not represented by anyone on the level of ZeRo, Dabuz, Ally and the like.

I feel like most of the roster has this issue

 

[NotLiquid]

zack tends to hit a lot of buttons and try to put himself in situations where he can get a punish, which is a decent strategy but doesn't cut it in some matchups, especially against diddy and cloud where throwing buttons is going to get you run over. those matchups are tests of patience and tenacity more than anything else, on both ends, and playing them otherwise tends to generate poor results.

This is absolutely true with Zack's play. It's easy to tell whenever he's tilted because he'll always throw out random hard-read FSmashes or USmashes. Bayonetta requires a lot of mental fortitude to do well with and despite Zack being more explosive out of the gate I think Salem is much better at keeping his cool in clutch situations. I have to imagine age plays a big part in it as well since Zack is incredibly young; the youngest top professional in fact, and might be prone to some impulsive moves as a result, but much like MKLeo I see a lot of growth potential in him for that reason.

 

[verbatim]

I still think Greninja lacks the top level representation that almost every other high tier can boast. Lea, Some and others are of course skilled players, but Greninja is not represented by anyone on the level of ZeRo, Dabuz, Ally...

Top, full-time professional players like that will tend to pick top tiers, not high tiers. It's why players who have breakout performances (Abadango @Evo 2015, Kameme @Evo 2016, Leo in general, etc) with lower tiered characters and start being regarded as top players will usually transition to maining or comaining a top tier as other top players start to figure out the match-up VS them.

As an aside, I'd like to point out how much I prefer zero's tierlist layout of Top > High > Upper. It's become pretty clear at this point that Cloud/Bayo/Diddy/Sheik are significantly better than Mario/Sonic/Fox/Rosa/etc, who are significantly better than MK/Ryu/etc who are definitely not mid tier.

 

[Dream Cancel]

He is fast, powerful and offers far better kill confirms than most if not all of the mid tiers.

The Greninja optimism is nice, but I doubt he has better kill confirms than a simple grab or Hoo-hah. .

 

[|RK|]

Do we still consider Bowser/DK to be mid tier?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do we still consider Bowser/DK to be mid tier?

At times, I'm like "Wow, Donkey Kong is really good, he might even be high tier!". Then he gets comboed super hard and can't land or recover from the ledge. Most Donkey Kong MU charts indicate that he has a bunch of bad MUs as well, which indicates that he's a mid tier (at the top of mid tier, perhaps) character, rather than a high tier character.

 

[Kofu]

i think zack is just not that good at certain matchups, and considering that salem doesn't attend many tournaments and 9b is japanese so people don't pay attention that's about all we see. he's not good against diddy, cloud, or ness, for example, matchups commonly seen as ~even for bayo (at least among people who play either character . i think this definitely screws with the perception people have of those mus and how they are supposed to play out. zack tends to hit a lot of buttons and try to put himself in situations where he can get a punish, which is a decent strategy but doesn't cut it in some matchups, especially against diddy and cloud where throwing buttons is going to get you run over. those matchups are tests of patience and tenacity more than anything else, on both ends, and playing them otherwise tends to generate poor results. case in point: while zack has lost to multiple top clouds without really taking sets, salem is virtually dead even with tweek (cba to check set count but they go back and forth, each set is usually very close) and beat komo/leo. while zack gets run over by zero, salem has forced him to very close sets and even taken sets before. 9b doesn't really struggle particularly hard with diddy from what i've seen, though he hasn't played zero or zinoto (has played edge though). i am positive the difference is a playstyle factor.

This is an area where Zack's age and relative inexperience with Smash as a series stands out. One of my friends played Zack in a major a few months back (don't remember which one, unfortunately) and while he lost 2-0 as Fox, the matches were close and he came back stating that he didn't feel like Zack was that good of a player. Then, last week, some people at my local mentioned that Zack's fundamentals aren't especially strong, which is probably what my friend was trying to hint at.

Zack's conversions are fantastic and I feel like he is overall the best with Bayo's ladder combos. However, he lacks the experience with previous Smash titles that Salem, 9B, and other have, which leads to their neutral games and general play being more effective. It reasonable to say that, from results alone, Zack is probably the best Bayonetta, but Salem and 9B are better players. Being able to successfully convert hits the way Zack does is just that much more important when Bayo lacks the oppressive neutral and kill setups other top tiers have.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Do we still consider Bowser/DK to be mid tier?

I want to say they are those confirms are just so good but simplistically speaking they get ate alive so hard when things aren't going thier way I have trouble actually calling them anything but mid tier. If Larry and Tweek can switch off actual top tiers and win counteepicking DK so much I have trouble calling them mid tier as well though. Maybe they along with a few other characters could be in a awkward high tier mid tier middle ground.

 

[The-Technique]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6cv6x9/how_does_ryu_fit_in_the_meta_now/dhxxutf/

Locus considers Ryu to be top 3. He might be overestimating him but given his recent results I think he could make a case for bottom of top tier.