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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Thinkaman

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I have my skepticism about a LGL being effective (much less "necessary") in any game/matchup, but that's neither here nor there.

The real point is that Melee and other fighting games have been perfectly healthy competitive games in spite of far worse stalling and far worse balance. Worrying about little miss can't-even-make-top-8 seems sardonic more than anything else.
 

NairWizard

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Bayonetta can't make top 8 because everyone learned counterplay for her and she's fallen out of favor in the very uniquely situated "top player meta." But there's a chain effect here. As she continues to fail to make top 8s, top players will prepare less for her, while Bayos will develop new techniques and strategies, thereby leaving the top players open to being upset by her again, which in turn will allow her into top 8s again; then, her appearance in top 8s will ooo and awe us once more, and we'll pronounce her broken, after which the top players will hit the lab again, and the cycle will repeat.


Elementary, really. Happens to every character. It's wonderful. I love smash 4.
 

Das Koopa

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Weekend tournies

1st: ZeRo :4diddy:, :4lucina:
2nd: Ally :4mario:
3rd: Larry Lurr :4fox:
4th: Tweek :4cloud2:
5th: ESAM :4pikachu:
5th: Mr. R :4sheik:
7th: Mr. E :4marth:
7th: MVD :4diddy:
9th: Tyroy :4bayonetta:, :4corrinf:
9th: Blacktwins :4cloud2:
9th: Shoyo James :4diddy:, :4luigi:
9th: DarkShad :4ryu:
13th: JJROCKETS :4diddy:
13th: Sheen :4lucina:, :4sheik:
13th: Dan :4mario:, :rosalina:
13th: Jimmy :4cloud2:

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2:
2nd: Abadango :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight:
3rd: VoiD :4sheik:
4th: Mew2King :4cloud2:
5th: ANTi :4mario:, :4zss:
5th: Exodia :4zss:
7th: KOSSismoss :4gaw:
7th: Big D :4mario:, :4falcon:
9th: Konga :4dk:
9th: Captain L :4pikachu:
9th: Falln :rosalina:
9th: Locus :4ryu:
13th: Shoghi :4feroy:, :4marth:
13th: Nurse :4dk:, :4luigi:
13th: Ashley :4ness:
13th: Len :4pit:

1st: Dabuz :rosalina:
2nd: Nietono :4sheik:
3rd: Kameme :4megaman:, :4sheik::4cloud2:
4th: cyve :4diddy:
5th: Purple~H :4cloud2:
5th: quiK :4zss:
7th: Glutonny :4wario2:
7th: Griffith :4bayonetta:, :4zss::4mario::4fox::4sheik:
9th: Elexiao :4greninja:
9th: Jbandrew :4metaknight:
9th: Homika :rosalina:
9th: Klemenz :4yoshi:
13th: Leon :4zss:
13th: VyQ :4mario:
13th: Vinnie :4sheik:
13th: Deimos :4diddy:

1st: Lima :4bayonetta:, :4peach:
2nd: Javi :4cloud2:, :4sheik:
3rd: Ac :4metaknight:, :4falco:
4th: Shadow_PR :4bayonetta:
5th: Twi :4peach:
5th: Dath :4robinf:
7th: Grimturtle :4fox:
7th: DJ Fliphop :4diddy:

1st: Shuton :4olimar:
2nd: Ranai :4villager:, :4lucina:
3rd: 9B :4bayonetta:
4th: Chanshu :4ryu:
5th: Songn :4gaw:
5th: Lagnel :4bayonetta:, :4zss:
7th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
7th: HIDE :4sonic:, :4diddy:

1st: SS :4cloud2:,:4villager::4ness:
2nd: Stroder :4greninja:,:4luigi::4sheik::4fox:
3rd: Luhtie :4zss:
4th: Spearwing :4robinf:, :4corrinf:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: dyr :4diddy:
3rd: RoguePenguin :4mario:
4th: ewok :4cloud2:

1st: Salem :4bayonetta:
2nd: Ryo :4myfriends:
3rd: RoguePenguin :4mario:, :4palutena:
4th: Chez :4sonic:


Character scores, June 5th:

Bayonetta: 161.5
Cloud: 145.5
Diddy Kong: 139
Sheik: 112.5
Mario: 108.5
Fox: 93.5
Sonic: 80.5
Zero Suit Samus: 77
Mewtwo: 68
Rosalina & Luma: 67
Ryu: 60
Captain Falcon: 53.5
Donkey Kong: 47.5
Meta Knight: 45
Greninja: 43.5
Mega Man: 38.5
Luigi: 35
Villager: 35
Lucina: 34
Ness: 33
Corrin: 29
Marth: 29
Lucas: 28.5
R.O.B.: 27
Pikachu: 27
Peach: 24
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Olimar: 22
Mr. Game & Watch: 19
Yoshi: 17.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Robin: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 10
Duck Hunt: 9
Palutena: 8.5
Pit: 8
Ike: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
Wario: 6
King Dedede: 5
Shulk: 3
Falco: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
 
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Rizen

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:4bayonetta2: couldn't make top 8 at Smash and Splash 3 but did get 9th (Tyroy) with only top players above her and scored best overall for results this week. I'm not saying ledge grab limit is a good idea or that anything needs to be done about her. All I am saying is she gets results and downplaying her feel like grasping at straws. I can't see her lower than top 4 in the tier list.
 

bc1910

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Character scores, June 5th:

Bayonetta: 161.5
Cloud: 145.5
Diddy Kong: 139
Sheik: 112.5
Mario: 108.5
Fox: 93.5
Sonic: 80.5
Zero Suit Samus: 77
Mewtwo: 68
Rosalina & Luma: 67
Ryu: 60
Captain Falcon: 53.5
Donkey Kong: 47.5
Meta Knight: 45
Greninja: 43.5
Mega Man: 38.5
Luigi: 35
Villager: 35
Lucina: 34
Ness: 33
Corrin: 29
Marth: 29
Lucas: 28.5
R.O.B.: 27
Pikachu: 27
Peach: 24
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Olimar: 22
Mr. Game & Watch: 19
Yoshi: 17.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Robin: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 10
Duck Hunt: 9
Palutena: 8.5
Pit: 8
Ike: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
Wario: 6
King Dedede: 5
Shulk: 3
Falco: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
Greninja 15th? DK and Falcon very high as well. Some interesting scores here that buck some of the thought trends we've been seeing lately. Falcon is showing results characteristic of one of the best high tiers and Greninja is well ahead of the mid-tiers.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Greninja 15th? DK and Falcon very high as well. Some interesting scores here that buck some of the thought trends we've been seeing lately. Falcon is showing results characteristic of one of the best high tiers and Greninja is well ahead of the mid-tiers.
Speaking of which, what seems to be people's opinion on DK right now?

Several I've seen on r/smashbros seem to see him as an indisputable Top 20 character (something I find quite dubious). I personally don't care too much because of how much the meta can change.
 

JayZee1700

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User was warned for this post - Double Posting
Samus might have a tether grab but it's also the longest tether grab
I hate to burst your bubble, but Samus' tether is not the longest; ZSS's tether beats that by a long shot. I guess all of that heavy armor would do that to her...

Speaking of which, what seems to be people's opinion on DK right now?

Several I've seen on r/smashbros seem to see him as an indisputable Top 20 character (something I find quite dubious). I personally don't care too much because of how much the meta can change.
Placement on tiers does not only have to do with weaknesses and strengths and which is more prominent, but also how the character's tools work with their kit, and how it stacks up against the cast.

Now, let's talk about DK. DK's strengths include a decent neutral, an amazing aerial game, great offensive and defensive tools from intangibility in his tilts, and of course, his combo game from grab. His weaknesses are susceptibility to being combo-ed because of his large hurt box, he has few landing options, and his recovery is mediocre at best.

Outside of Ding Dong, his combo strings normally deal at least 50% per conversion (depending on the character, of course). At that rate, after 2-3 conversions, DK can finish with a B-air or F-smash or something else. So, wouldn't that be enough to make DK top 20?

No, because before DK can get the grab to kill Fox at 65%, he has to play around for that grab, and during that time, Fox can get some U-tilts and U-airs. Then, DK would have to pick the correct landing option (which isn't easy), and odds are by the time he gets back to solid ground, he's taken too much damage and rage, and Fox doesn't die from Ding Dong anymore.

But that's not always the case. Recent results coming from players such as Larry Lurr, HIKARU, Konga and M2K showcase DK's amazing strengths, while covering his weaknesses at the same time.

I think he could be top 20. Easily possible. It's up to the players to show how even with DK's deplorable disadvantage state, you can abuse his amazing advantage state. What do you guys think?

Placement on tiers does not only have to do with weaknesses and strengths and which is more prominent, but also how the character's tools work with their kit, and how it stacks up against the cast.

Now, let's talk about DK. DK's strengths include a decent neutral, an amazing aerial game, great offensive and defensive tools from intangibility in his tilts, and of course, his combo game from grab. His weaknesses are his terrible disadvantage state, in the form of juggling and other combos only possible from being so large, and his recovery is mediocre at best.

Outside of Ding Dong, his combo strings normally deal at least 50% per conversion (depending on the character, of course). At that rate, after 2-3 conversions, DK can finish with a B-air or F-smash or something else. So, wouldn't that be enough to make DK at LEAST top 20?

No, because before DK can get the grab to kill Fox at 65%, he has to play around for that grab, and during that time, Fox can get some U-tilts and U-airs. Then, DK would have to pick the correct landing option (which isn't easy), and odds are by the time he gets back to solid ground, he's taken too much damage and rage, and Fox doesn't die from Ding Dong anymore.

But that's not always the case. Recent results coming from players such as Larry Lurr, HIKARU, Konga and M2K showcase DK's amazing strengths, while covering his weaknesses at the same time.

I think he could be top 20. Easily possible. It's up to the players to show how even with DK's deplorable disadvantage state, you can abuse his amazing advantage state. What do you guys think?
Also DK has been blowing up A LOT lately, so it's not like he's always getting juggled like a circus act.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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I don't think the idea of :4dk: being top 25 atleast isnt a crazy claim anymore and if someone placed him in high tier I honestly wouldn't be too surprised by it at this point. We've seen sustained success and wins with him for a good bit of time now, even though we all know how hard he gets bodied when he's hit it hasn't fully slowed him down at all because of that absurd kill power of his. I really could see DK sneaking into the bottom of high tier next tier list if he keeps it up, he's definitely a relevant meta threat that will end your bracket run if you aren't prepared to play against him.

Also side note but my boy :4ness: has been on a quiet yet decent streak. I thinks he's been steadily in top 25 in results this entire year so far of the top of my head. So far he's 20th. Just saying...
 
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teddystalin

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Character scores, June 5th:

Bayonetta: 161.5
Cloud: 145.5
Diddy Kong: 139
Sheik: 112.5
Mario: 108.5
Fox: 93.5
Sonic: 80.5
Zero Suit Samus: 77
Mewtwo: 68
Rosalina & Luma: 67
Ryu: 60
Captain Falcon: 53.5
Donkey Kong: 47.5
Meta Knight: 45
Greninja: 43.5
Mega Man: 38.5
Luigi: 35
Villager: 35
Lucina: 34
Ness: 33
Corrin: 29
Marth: 29
Lucas: 28.5
R.O.B.: 27
Pikachu: 27
Peach: 24
Bowser: 23
Samus: 22
Olimar: 22
Mr. Game & Watch: 19
Yoshi: 17.5
Toon Link: 15
Wii Fit Trainer: 14.5
Lucario: 11
Link: 11
Robin: 11
Charizard: 10.5
Pac-Man: 10
Roy: 10
Duck Hunt: 9
Palutena: 8.5
Pit: 8
Ike: 7
Ganondorf: 6
Little Mac: 6
Wario: 6
King Dedede: 5
Shulk: 3
Falco: 3
Mii Brawler: 1
These are just for Q2 this year, correct?


I hate to burst your bubble, but Samus' tether is not the longest; ZSS's tether beats that by a long shot. I guess all of that heavy armor would do that to her...
Hate to burst your bubble, but grapple beam > plasma whip.
 

Nah

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Here's two newish videos that got uploaded recently that I felt like sharing and seeing what you guys and gals had to say.

So random thought I had, jumping off of this (in regards to the first video). Maybe it's not as nearly as interesting of a discussion point as I might think it could be, but oh well

What do you all think skill is, really?
 

Seagull Joe

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:4dk: has some really polarizing matchups. I watched yesterday as Kossismoss destroyed Konga 3-0. It was :4gaw: vs :4dk:. :4dk: randomly does good vs some characters, but also really bad vs like :4duckhunt:,:4sonic:, :4zss:, :rosalina:, :4gaw:, :4tlink:. His spread is random. His bracket is all luck based.

I think he's high tier, but not top tier. He's better than :4bowser: for sure. That much isn't debatable at this time. :4dk: has safe approaches and a grab game. He also has reliable options to get people off him and land. :4bowser: has an arguably worse recovery and less reliable approaches.

:018:
 
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Luigi player

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These are just for Q2 this year, correct?




Hate to burst your bubble, but grapple beam > plasma whip.
I'm not sure how accurate this list is, but it surely has a few flaws.

I think it's just mesuring the length by looking at the size of the grab-hitbox, and not the "from character to where?" size, which is what pretty much all the time matters more (the few occasions where someone would try running past you and you don't grab them, because they're already past your grab-bubble don't make up much).

To prove this look at this:

The list has:
Sonic: 75, tier E
Mario: 79, tier D

Sonic definitely has more range than Mario in front of him, and not just a tiny bit more. Sonic has one of the best grabranges in the game. I'm always amazed when playing him and how much of a difference it makes since you're able to grab people from so far away.

I also just tested it again to be sure 1000 % (Sonic and Mario stand in front of each other, Sonic will grab Mario earlier than otherwise, also looked at idle animation stuff so that doesn't interfere).

Edit:
I've looked for that one video which compares grabranges (and that's where the list is from).

I guess the reason for Sonic grabbing first could be because Sonics hurtboxes while standing don't go as much further in front than for other characters (-> thin), so even though his grabrange doesn't look like it would be bigger, it is when you factor in the hurtable parts that extend past their actual hurtbox that they have that are used to make them stop at a wall and such.

Which is something that should be factored in when measuring grabranges because that's what actually matters. -> The "line" from end of hurtable parts to grabrange.
And that's what makes Sonic grab e.g. Mario and not the other way around.

It's just that the collision detection for walls and stuff can be earlier than the hurtboxes / the hurtboxes can go beyond it.

Which means the list is super accurate when just factoring in the range from collision detection (to stop at wall/etc) to grabrange, but not from hurtbox to grabrange (which is what matters in head to head fights).
 
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TDK

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Something I've been wanting to get an opinion on since this weekend: When is a good time to counterpick? Is it better to swap characters or adapt throughout a set with the same characters? Is knowing more than one character a good thing?
 

ARISTOS

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Something I've been wanting to get an opinion on since this weekend: When is a good time to counterpick? Is it better to swap characters or adapt throughout a set with the same characters? Is knowing more than one character a good thing?
I think you should have experience playing with multiple characters, if not for the fact that it'll give you a better understanding of how different characters work.

I think going for a CP depends on the player themself. CP's can be good for a mentality switch or if the MU being played is really bad and you're really bad at it. However, I generally think pocket CPs don't tend to work out, both from experience and from watching sets from top players. Generally, a players worst MU is also the one they have spent a ton of time prepping for, so if you're going to go at it basic **** will probably not fly.

However for me everytime I switch off Peach during a set in bracket I lose and go "Why did I do that"
 

|RK|

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Something I've been wanting to get an opinion on since this weekend: When is a good time to counterpick? Is it better to swap characters or adapt throughout a set with the same characters? Is knowing more than one character a good thing?
Well friend, aren't *you* in luck today!

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Vyrnx

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I hate to burst your bubble, but Samus' tether is not the longest; ZSS's tether beats that by a long shot. I guess all of that heavy armor would do that to her...
Samus's grab is the longest; ZSS' offstage ledge tether is the longest.

Re: Esam's Samus:

The frustration that some Samus players have had with Esam's Samus is how people mistakenly believe for some reason that Esam leads the Samus meta or is the only person doing anything with Samus. From 2014 - March 2017, Esam did nothing notable with Samus except take one game off of Larry Lurr's prepatch Luigi and maybe a couple of other minor things I've forgotten. That shouldn't be surprising since Esam didn't use Samus as a serious secondary; he used her sporadically and for fun more than anything else, treating Yoshi and Mewtwo more as secondaries.

As far as his gameplay with Samus, it just isn't clean. He drops combos all the time or is unaware of certain followups, unaware of tech chase setups, bad CS usage, tries to force landings with dair, uses sh fair in neutral way too much (or at least used to, and sh fair sucks), no use of sh uair, no use of shad, etc. He looked a little better in the Ally set, mostly in that his tilt usage was on point. And I don't know if that set may have inspired him to practice Samus more; his Samus could be better now for all I know, since I haven't watched his Combo Breaker sets yet. Obviously Esam's Samus isn't actually "bad", but there have been better Samus players than him for the past two and a half years that people don't pay attention to.
 
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Hippieslayer

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Samus's grab is the longest; ZSS' offstage ledge tether is the longest.

Re: Esam's Samus:

The frustration that some Samus players have had with Esam's Samus is how people mistakenly believe for some reason that Esam leads the Samus meta or is the only person doing anything with Samus. From 2014 - March 2017, Esam did nothing notable with Samus except take one game off of Larry Lurr's prepatch Luigi and maybe a couple of other minor things I've forgotten. That shouldn't be surprising since Esam didn't use Samus as a serious secondary; he used her sporadically and for fun more than anything else, treating Yoshi and Mewtwo more as secondaries.

As far as his gameplay with Samus, it just isn't clean. He drops combos all the time or is unaware of certain followups, unaware of tech chase setups, bad CS usage, tries to force landings with dair, uses sh fair in neutral way too much (or at least used to, and sh fair sucks), no use of sh uair, no use of shad, etc. He looked a little better in the Ally set, mostly in that his tilt usage was on point. And I don't know if that set may have inspired him to practice Samus more; his Samus could be better now for all I know, since I haven't watched his Combo Breaker sets yet. Obviously Esam's Samus isn't actually "bad", but there have been better Samus players than him for the past two and a half years that people don't pay attention to.
I dunno. Could make a similar case comparing Tweek and Larrys dk with Wills DK. The latter is far more sophisticated, but that doesnt mean better.
 

ARISTOS

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I dunno. Could make a similar case comparing Tweek and Larrys dk with Wills DK. The latter is far more sophisticated, but that doesnt mean better.
I mean for most characters outside of the top 11-12 or so any top player could pick up that character and push farther in bracket than most if not all dedicated mains. They're just overall better players and can get by with basic play, while more dedicated mains have to optimize their character's tools in order to keep up.

For me, Will is better at playing DK, but Tweek/Larry are better at playing the game.
 

Lord Dio

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In regards to rage coming back ni the next game, I am all for it, but I can understand why it isn't wanted as well. Take this past weekend for example. M2k nearly took think Game 3 off of ANTi with max rage Cloud. Earlier, Slenderman took a game off of Mr E and nearly took games 2 and 3 as well with rage Link. So I can definitely see why it wouldn't be wanted in the next game.
Something I've been wanting to get an opinion on since this weekend: When is a good time to counterpick? Is it better to swap characters or adapt throughout a set with the same characters? Is knowing more than one character a good thing?
Knowing more than one character is absolutely a good thing. Most of the top 50 PGR have played multiple characters some time or other. I think the only real character loyalist in top 20 or so would be Ally and Fatality, off a guess. Knowing how to play more than one character can help teach you about the mus your main loses, why they lose, and how you could possibly practice that area with your main to do better in that losing mu. It can also help you just in general practice areas of the game . Ex. Picking up cloud for mus where sheik would have trouble killing and possibly get janked out. Playing a character with a poor grab game, constantly lose to bayo, and pick up ness or luigi to work on your grab game, as well as to deal with bayo.

The only real downside is that playing multiple characters requires time that you could be using for your main. But when you look at the above, it's a small price to pay. Would you rather be the best mario player, and still lose mus, or be a better player overall and be capable of winning your bad mus?

As for when you should switch to a secondary, I believe it's player dependent, by that I mean it depends on the person as well as their opponent. Some players might feel like they could adapt to their opponent, so they stick with the character they started with. Some might think "Oh, I could probably do better with my secondary, since my secondary does better against this character's plerbase than my main". That part is incredibly risky though, because you have to remember how skilled the players you've beaten in the past are compared to your opponent. For example, M2k's disastrous set against VoiD last night. M2k did well against Kameme's sheik at umebura with Dk, and cloud had just gotten bodied, so he felt dk might be better. The problem there is that VoiD's sheik outclasses Kameme's by a wide margin. While this was a grave error, there was some logic to it.

All in all, character loyalty will not help you 100% of the time, and deciding if and when to switch to another character is a player based decision.
 

Kofu

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Something that I've been seeing lately is a disparity between great players and people that are great with their characters. It's something that's come up with ESAM's Samus and Larry and Tweek's DKs (possibly others, but that's all that comes to mind right now). While this is hard to quantify, as none of those characters are their players' mains, they've gotten better individual results than most other high-level mains of said characters. I think this comes from their fundamentals and an understanding of what's important in their matches.

When I watched ESAM's match with Ally at Civil War, I wasn't inherently impressed with his Samus as a Samus. His tilt usage was very strong, as Vyrnx noted. What I was impressed by was how he spaced his moves and was very good at keeping Ally out. This had a lot to do with Samus--knowing how she moves, the range of her attacks, what moves stuff those of Mario--but I think it had more to do with ESAM's understanding of the game and applying what he knows Mario's weaknesses are. It's harder for me to comment on DK, as I don't use the character, but Larry and Tweek seem to be most concerned with getting grabs and sealing stocks as efficiently as possible, even if it means taking some damage in the process.

Full-time mains of these characters likely have a deeper understanding of their character's moves and options, but unless they can convert their knowledge into application and stock-taking, they won't be as successful.

In a similar vein, I've heard people say that T isn't a flashy Link player. He's rather straightforward and doesn't use techniques like bombsliding. Yet he's achieved Link's greatest success to date because of his application of basic gameplay concepts like spacing and mobility. Could he be better if he learned bombsliding and other techniques? Sure! Having more options is never a bad thing. But knowing all your characters' tricks and options won't help you if you don't have the fundamentals to apply them.

There's a player I've fought who has looked into a lot of Ryu techniques and options, and as far as I know he's practiced all of them. Yet his Ryu is still extremely lacking and struggles to get in. Why? Because he doesn't understand neutral exchanges enough. Compared to him, my Ryu is very... ah, unpolished. I'm very bad at using UTilt and Focus Attack, and I can't really use TSRK in a real match. But my Ryu seems better because I've tried to learn how he pokes and gets in before learning how to make him a kill confirm machine. (Ignore the icon in my profile; I mainly play Ryu for fun, don't get mad at me for not being good at Ryu's bread and butter kill confirm).

Just an observation. I'm not trying to say that high-level mains of mid-tiers are bad players, just that the level of understanding that top players have of the game lets them potentially get better results with said characters as secondaries. It might also be why they occasionally have drastically different opinions about certain characters than average players do.
 

verbatim

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For me, Will is better at playing DK, but Tweek/Larry are better at playing the game.

For what it's worth I'd bet on DKWill upsetting Mr R. or Void way moreso than Larry or Tweek w/ DK. He plays the matchup against Vinnie on an almost weekly basis. On a similar end I wouldn't be surprised to see Vinnie upset Hikaru at Evo or something similar.

Hitting that shield up close? Eat this screw attack my good man.
Late but IMO this is one of Samus's biggest flaws. It is one of the most punishing OoS options to not connect with and the only real OoS option that she has. She can't grab OoS, her roll is actually the worst in the game, she doesn't have a frame 3 aerial that covers her sides, her jab is well, Samus's jab.

She (also Link) would be infinitely better if they just had regular grabs. I would legitimately consider Link a Top tier threat if he had a normal grab and could z-drop bombs.
 
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Krysco

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Well there's her short hop air dodge as an alternative. Both rolls are intangible frames 4-23 with an faf of 40 and her fastest attack afterwards is her frame 3 jab. Compared to her shorthop airdodge which requires going through her f4 jumpsquat, airdodge is intangible frames 3-27 with an faf of 33 and I know from using her that she can at the very least get out the first hit of nair and get out bair before landing after shad. Uair would come out too. Shad takes longer to become intangible but you get control over your distance and the dodge itself is safer than her rolls in terms of amount of intangibility.
 

TDK

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I would legitimately consider Link a Top tier threat if he had a normal grab and could z-drop bombs.
What do you mean about this part? Link can Z-drop bombs normally, if he drops them close enough to the ground. Then, the Zair doesn't come out.

Also, even just two frames off his grab would be huge.
 
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Hippieslayer

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I mean for most characters outside of the top 11-12 or so any top player could pick up that character and push farther in bracket than most if not all dedicated mains. They're just overall better players and can get by with basic play, while more dedicated mains have to optimize their character's tools in order to keep up.

For me, Will is better at playing DK, but Tweek/Larry are better at playing the game.
I understand the distinction. But it doesnt make sense to me. In effect Tweek and Larry ARE better at playing DK because their DK's constitute bigger threats, they may use less of his tools, but I dont see how that matters when their DKs are just better at getting the job done. Wills DK may be more sophisticated and developed, but it is also worse because its not as big a threat since Will, for all his knowledge and diverse playstyle still isnt as good at winning. I know I'm arguing semantics here, but this discussion kinda calls into question how we define what makes a player good at a character. Will might seem better at DK because he uses more of what DK has to offer, but his way of playing DK is in my eyes inferior to that of Larry and Tweek, sometimes a character is better played just sticking to the basics, utilizing the best options to the max at the right time is more important than being able to use all of what the character has to offer, it might look worse, but still be better in practice.

I guess DK is maybe not as good an example. I mean it was an analogy I made to express my scepticism about ESAMs Samus not being that good, imo ESAMs Samus is rather sophisticated, he knows the character fairly well, he just hasnt optimized it. Its just really easy to point out errors he made while failing to notice everything hes doing better than other Samus players due to tunnelvisioning on specific faults and shortcomings. I mean is Zenyou a better Mario than Ally?
 

Nathan Richardson

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Where in Michigan. I can find you somewhere.
Warren, right on the border of Madison Heights. The U of M campus is too far away for a drive, there's a game place at the Lakeside Mall but those are what I like to call Tiny Tourneys (barely ten participants if that). So yeah not exactly Smash country in my neck of the woods.
 

Vyrnx

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I mean is Zenyou a better Mario than Ally?
Esam barely ever used Samus and did next to nothing with the character for two years, yet was looked to by people who don't know the character as "the" Samus. That's why it was always frustrating to see judgments passed on the character by people who only watched Esam pull out Samus on stream just to lose games most of the time (because of major errors, more than just non-optimized combos). Esam had nowhere near the results to stake any claim at being an actual top Samus until two months ago (and even then, he'd never done anything with solo Samus).

Esam's Samus isn't comparable to Ally's Mario. He uses Samus loosely and rarely whereas Ally has solo mained Mario since release; Ally without question knows Mario better than Esam knows a character he sometimes decides to secondary; Ally is the uncontested best player of Mario, whereas Esam isn't the best Samus player.
 
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Rizen

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Late but IMO this is one of Samus's biggest flaws. It is one of the most punishing OoS options to not connect with and the only real OoS option that she has. She can't grab OoS, her roll is actually the worst in the game, she doesn't have a frame 3 aerial that covers her sides, her jab is well, Samus's jab.

She (also Link) would be infinitely better if they just had regular grabs. I would legitimately consider Link a Top tier threat if he had a normal grab and could z-drop bombs.
Link's grab being slow sucks but a regular grab wouldn't work for him. He doesn't have the run speed or burst options. With a tether grab he can out reach the few characters with better disjoint like Marcina. Zair and tether are a good in between from sword and projectiles.
 
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JohnnyEGG

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The only real downside is that playing multiple characters requires time that you could be using for your main. But when you look at the above, it's a small price to pay. Would you rather be the best mario player, and still lose mus, or be a better player overall and be capable of winning your bad mus?
People often say that the main downside to developing secondaries is the time invested, but whenever I see counterpicks I end up wondering if the benefits you listed are a double-edged sword in regards to the player's mentality.

Nobody wants to go home thinking "if only I'd made X decision, then I'd have won," but that line of thought can be made worse by having a radical shift in options- a character switch- available. More importantly though, it shifts that doubt to something that's happening in the quick gap between games, as opposed to a post-game analysis. And that doubt could have a destructive impact on the player's mentality that may end up costing them more games in the long run.

If Anti rolls into Mew2king's upsmash and dies, he made a bad decision, and he might regret that he chose to roll there, but if you take in the context of an RPS scramble, it's not something to dwell on.

By contrast, when I've seen Mr. E playing at recent events he seems to switch between Lucina and Marth pretty much out of desperation. (The Marcina comparison is convenient because of similarities between the characters and the implication that if you can play one, you can play the other fairly easy. I'm not going to touch the issue of MU differences, if any.) Against ESAM at smashnsplash, he played Lucina for the first two games, then switched to Marth. I can't say what was going through his head, but it comes across as throwing stuff to the wall to see what sticks. Then in game three he landed a sour f-smash and the commentator pointed out that if he had been playing Lucina, it would have killed. Ignoring that situations can't be exactly paralleled like that, I imagine Mr. E noticed, and I imagine it had to inflict some psychological damage. "If only I hadn't switched, then..."

Someone who chooses to play both Marth and Lucina may have it particularly bad when comparing very specific situations, but it can extend to any matchup where someone is unsure of who to play. Every moment you spend agonizing on the character select screen about who to play is a moment you're not figuring out the opponent, and no matter who you choose, you'll know it could come back to bite you. If you're a solo-main through and through, it's not a problem. Figure it out. Take them down. That's all there is to it.

Of course, this can be a player specific thing as well. Anti seems to have no problems bouncing back and forth to whoever he thinks will get him the win. But ZeRo's recent twitter bit about going back to diddy makes me wonder if he would have been better off sticking with diddy all along, rather than trying some ugly experiments (see his recent match against Fatality)
 

TDK

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Taternator :4bowserjr: 2-1 Abadango :4bayonetta2:

Note: I don't know for sure if Aba went Rosa, Mewtwo, Bayo, or someone else.
 
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Floor

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ZeRo definitely cuts his Diddy short; reminder of Frostbite vs Tsu where he tried Falcon and I think Cloud before returning to Diddy and clutching it out. The problem is that it's hard to decide who to switch to when you're in a best of 5 set. I'm reminded of Midwest Mayhem 8 vs Zinoto. ZeRo lost game one as Lucina because "he forgot how to play for a second" even though things were looking pretty good otherwise. But when you only have 3 games to lose, you can't experiment too much or else you may have to get the reverse 3-0 when you finally find a character that is working. Likewise, it's not wise to experiment too little when you're losing as you could be throwing away games to someone who knows the MU well.

ZeRo shouldn't underestimate his Diddy but he shouldn't pigeonhole himself either. If he grows his Lucina a bit, I think it would be a safer pick then his Diddy against Mario/Ally
 

Lord Dio

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But when you only have 3 games to lose, you can't experiment too much or else you may have to get the reverse 3-0 when you finally find a character that is working. Likewise, it's not wise to experiment too little when you're losing as you could be throwing away games to someone who knows the MU well.
Yup. A good example of this is Dabuz vs Mr R at Big House 6. Mr R experimented sheik, then bayo, and had to reverse 3-0 with Cloud. He was on the very edge of losing, had to bring it back with Cloud knowing that he could lose any of the final three games and lose the set.
People often say that the main downside to developing secondaries is the time invested, but whenever I see counterpicks I end up wondering if the benefits you listed are a double-edged sword in regards to the player's mentality.

Nobody wants to go home thinking "if only I'd made X decision, then I'd have won," but that line of thought can be made worse by having a radical shift in options- a character switch- available. More importantly though, it shifts that doubt to something that's happening in the quick gap between games, as opposed to a post-game analysis. And that doubt could have a destructive impact on the player's mentality that may end up costing them more games in the long run.

If Anti rolls into Mew2king's upsmash and dies, he made a bad decision, and he might regret that he chose to roll there, but if you take in the context of an RPS scramble, it's not something to dwell on.

By contrast, when I've seen Mr. E playing at recent events he seems to switch between Lucina and Marth pretty much out of desperation. (The Marcina comparison is convenient because of similarities between the characters and the implication that if you can play one, you can play the other fairly easy. I'm not going to touch the issue of MU differences, if any.) Against ESAM at smashnsplash, he played Lucina for the first two games, then switched to Marth. I can't say what was going through his head, but it comes across as throwing stuff to the wall to see what sticks. Then in game three he landed a sour f-smash and the commentator pointed out that if he had been playing Lucina, it would have killed. Ignoring that situations can't be exactly paralleled like that, I imagine Mr. E noticed, and I imagine it had to inflict some psychological damage. "If only I hadn't switched, then..."

Someone who chooses to play both Marth and Lucina may have it particularly bad when comparing very specific situations, but it can extend to any matchup where someone is unsure of who to play. Every moment you spend agonizing on the character select screen about who to play is a moment you're not figuring out the opponent, and no matter who you choose, you'll know it could come back to bite you. If you're a solo-main through and through, it's not a problem. Figure it out. Take them down. That's all there is to it.

Of course, this can be a player specific thing as well. Anti seems to have no problems bouncing back and forth to whoever he thinks will get him the win. But ZeRo's recent twitter bit about going back to diddy makes me wonder if he would have been better off sticking with diddy all along, rather than trying some ugly experiments (see his recent match against Fatality)
Your point is that switching could cause a player to feel regret during moments where they might have taken the win with their previous character, correct?
The problem with that is that players, as I believe, shouldn't feel regret over this. They made the choice, for whatever reason, logical or not. It's the same for if you solo main a character and lose. You just have to keep going, keep playing. Sure, your other character would have taken that stock then, but would you have even gotten that far with your previous character? That's somethign that won't ever be known.
Regardless of whether you win or lose, you should be thinking about the things you did wrong that you know you can improve. Instead of thinking about if lucina's fsmash would have killed instead of marth's, think about how you can improve your gameplay overall with both.
In short, choosing to switch to a secondary is a big if, but it shouldn't be something that's overanalyzed and causes regret.
 

Radical Larry

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I have my skepticism about a LGL being effective (much less "necessary") in any game/matchup, but that's neither here nor there.

The real point is that Melee and other fighting games have been perfectly healthy competitive games in spite of far worse stalling and far worse balance. Worrying about little miss can't-even-make-top-8 seems sardonic more than anything else.
The fact that larger tournaments would never run this due to there being no way to possibly record this should be a big indicator of why there's no way this will happen. You can't record it in-game, and trying to record it in tournaments, especially larger ones, would be a waste of time, effort and money.

I could bring up how much more fundamentally flawed it is, but I don't want this to turn into a big post here.
 

mimgrim

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The fact that larger tournaments would never run this due to there being no way to possibly record this should be a big indicator of why there's no way this will happen. You can't record it in-game, and trying to record it in tournaments, especially larger ones, would be a waste of time, effort and money.

I could bring up how much more fundamentally flawed it is, but I don't want this to turn into a big post here.
I mean, I have absolutely no opinion on whether lgl should be implemented or not but like there are ways to record it at large tournaments. If they were able to do it with Brawl they can do it with this game, its not that hard.
 

Rizen

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I wouldn't think switching between Lucina and Marth (or Pit and Dark Pit) would be that hard. They both have the same physics and moves. On the other end I fight Marcina the same way, Marth is more punishing. Now MKLeo is going Corrin? What is it with top players have existential crises with their mains?
It was a good placing, coming out above Void. Kudos to Elegant for taking MSM 24 with solo Luigi.
 

Radical Larry

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I mean, I have absolutely no opinion on whether lgl should be implemented or not but like there are ways to record it at large tournaments. If they were able to do it with Brawl they can do it with this game, its not that hard.
Okay, but do you know how much it would cost or how much time it would end up consuming if we made sure to record it at tournaments? Or do you know how redundant a rule like that would be since planking isn't as widespread as it was in Brawl due to the changes in the ledge mechanics?

Anyway, listen, it's just a redundant rule with how things are in Smash 4 so far. It's most likely never going to be implemented, and if it ever does get used (the LGL), then there'll be a lot more questions and concerns.
 
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