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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Yonder

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iBYPOWER Masters Showdown (131 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: MKLeo :4cloud2: :4metaknight:
2nd: Larry Lurr :4fox: :4dk: :4bowser:
3rd: KEN :4sonic:
4th: Komorikiri :4cloud2: :4sonic:
5th: Mr. E :4lucina:
5th: VoiD :4sheik:
7th: Mr. R :4sheik:
7th: Mr. Con Con :4luigi:
My gosh, Larry is king of the pocket...monsters. Cause they are kind of monsters...and he pulls then out from time to time. You could say Larry has some Pokemon! Just goes to show DK and Bowser play very similar, but makes me wonder when one over the other is preferred in an mu.

Ok ok, also props to Concon for placing, it's been a long time since he's been in top 8.
 

The-Technique

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My gosh, Larry is king of the pocket...monsters. Cause they are kind of monsters...and he pulls then out from time to time. You could say Larry has some Pokemon! Just goes to show DK and Bowser play very similar, but makes me wonder when one over the other is preferred in an mu.

Ok ok, also props to Concon for placing, it's been a long time since he's been in top 8.
I noticed his mashing game was really off yesterday he played, was it the cold weather?
 

The-Technique

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How the hell does sonic beat cloud The-Technique The-Technique
i was a bit vague, my bad. what i meant was that Cloud is beatable for Sonic, not necessarily a winning match up but not atrocious for Sonic as it was once made out to be. its especially evident given the amount of respect the top Clouds show toward KEN that they wont even use Cloud against him anymore
 
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Ziodyne 21

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i was a bit vague, my bad. what i meant was that Cloud is beatable for Sonic, not necessarily a winning match up but not atrocious for Sonic as it was once made out to be. its especially evident given the amount of respect the top Clouds show toward KEN that they wont even use Cloud against him anymore
Ok yea that I see. Even KEN put the Cloud MU as just slightly losing for Sonic.

Bayo still seems to legit give Sonic a hard time .But I do not think its as bad as -2 which was how KEN put it. Still its the only MU KEN has stated he hates going against...lol

Also yea I would say KEN is a top 10 player this year/season.

Makes we think since who people think are the definitive top 10 players off the year


Shoe-ins for it in no paticular order since these 8 have been the most consistiently strong this season

ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
MKLeo
Salem
Tweek
KEN
Larry Lurr

I am not sure who to put for the last two though. maybe Mr.R/Void, Komo or possibly even WaDi if he particiated in more majors..
 
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D

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What is Sonic's matchup against Mario or Marth? Positive for Mario, Even for Marth?
EDIT: ( Should be Negative for Mario, I think Mario loses the Sonic matchup.
 
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ThePokéYoshi

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The Smash 4 Boot Camp voting phase has begun. Here are the 16 candidates:

Peabnut :4megaman:
Dekillsage :4fox:
Cosmos :4corrinf:
Mr. R :4sheik:
WaDi :4mewtwo::4rob:
ESAM :4pikachu:
K9sbruce :4diddy::4sheik:
Samsora :4peach:
Nicko :4shulk:
Abadango :4mewtwo::4bayonetta:
Xzax :4fox:
Ally :4mario:
Captain L :4pikachu:
Fatality :4falcon:
MVD :4diddy:
Light :4fox:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I heard :4mario:looses the match up against :4palutena:.
( EDIT: It is actually Mario! I am really sorry! )

So the match up for :foxmelee:against :marthmelee:is considered even in Melee. Is :4marth:against:4fox:still considered even?

What is:4sonic:'s match up against :4sheik:? Does :4sonic:or:4sheik:win?

Does :4cloud:lose the match up against :4bayonetta:? So many questions.
 
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Peabnut Bubber

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Nu~ Nu~ sorry for the late response. Megaman is good enough to be solo viable imo. He struggles most with his disadvantage state and getting combo'd which is a big problem in this meta but he has enough tools to mitigate or avoid most of it with enough creativity. Megaman seems to be a character who is best suited for winning neutral and pushing advantage, or just keep playing neutral/play safely for a while.

Also WOOOOO I'm in phase 2 of voting for the Boot Camp!
 

Envoy of Chaos

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You guys should definitely vote for Peabnut for Bootcamp, just saying.

Also so this isn't totally off topic Ness is still good.

Okay go vote for Peab now :)
 

Heracr055

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I think I was wrong for the past few months that Sonic isn't in the top 10. With Ken, Manny and Komo's recent placings, they're really are turning up and racking up results. It's actually the reason I'm dusting off my Sonic from 2015.
 

Ilikebugs

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You guys should definitely vote for Peabnut for Bootcamp, just saying.

Also so this connects to the conversation Ness has good players, a solid matchup against Bayo and Diddy and results still, despite the lack of travelling by mains to big tournaments. I think that Ness is still top 20 at the top level for this reason.

Okay go vote for Peab now
 

Megamang

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Correct me if any of this is off base Peabnut Bubber Peabnut Bubber


I strongly agree with what you said about him having to avoid disadvantage to do well. When I played Tyroy, my main issue was returning to the stage and Witch Time. A big plus for MM is his weight, which gives him great survivability when you consider that he is small and pretty nimble. I've won a lot of games at my locals with the casters and my enemy thinking I was dead, but I survive and come back and boom. This is however partially offset by his weight at low percents, something like a cloud or fox vortex is gonna take MM on a bit of a longer ride than most characters suffer. This is why fox is miserable, you don't get out until you are close to dead. You can actually keep fox out alright, if he got like Diddy reward for getting in it might be close but instead he just ravages you and most of your moveset just doesn't even have stopping power vs his frame data.


But anyways, something I see about megaman that isn't true is that he barely gets reward. He gets bad reward for pellets, sure, but they aren't for damage so much as control/MU specifics / edgeguarding (pellet means you cant ledgegrab for a second, which sucks vs dair or bair). Otherwise, he gets pretty solid reward. He doesn't do Diddy damage, but for a non combo grab MM does a lot. 12% backwards. I also like the 6% (iirc) for upwards; them being directly above you is great.

Brings me to my next point. Uair. This some great stuff. We all know about the early kills, blah blah w/e. But, it gives him a nice shield pressure tool that is safe depending on their height and OoS. The mixup between tomahawk and uair on shield can make them try and OoS panic to avoid a grab, then uair hits

When uair hits, you have tons of options. If they are slower than you in the air, then you can really lay into them with uair. Uair is also absurdly good at triplats, using it rapidly (just before you land from shorthops) and well spaced means they have to go around. Clever usage and they are really suspect to either bair air to air, or a thrown metal blade on landing.

Uair is also decent at the ledge. You can cover a lot of options (heavily dependent on their hitbox size), you can cover ledgejump with less committal than most characters can, and if they get launched you have some really good chances to juggle, regrab, bair in the air, etc etc etc.

Oh quick note on shield pressure, zdrop metal blade is pretty nice for covering you against shorter characters, you can drop it such that it will smack them if they try an OoS. This should combo into bair or dashgrab, or just pellets if you don't feel like going in. Against big characters a well dropped metal blade (close to them so its falling slow) will RAVAGE their shield. Bair, being a multi hit, can add pressure and even shield poke on the later hits, though this is mostly vs heavies.


Something mega has in disadvantage that he shares with Diddy is OoS items. They are great. Something like corrin bair is usually safe, but chucking a metal blade out at them will punish at a very long range. This is very much my gameplan against ANYONE with a mediocre grab punish, I'm dash shielding everywhere and if they call me out it is alright, though someone like Cloud can turn a throw in 50 uairs and that can hurt. You have zdrop options as well, meaning you have a chance to do the infamous footstool kill if they run in and whiff something.



I find that crash bomber is heavily heavily underrated. Sure, in a neutral situation it is pretty easy to dodge or negate. So is paralyzer and DFS. Why do they shoot it then? The reward is great, and the risk is low if you space correctly. If you stick someone and they don't immediately run at me, fsmash suddenly becomes a really solid option. If they shield the CB an instant too soon so the shield starts decaying, they can be effectively trapped. Roll gets hit with fsmash because they get crash bombered into stun, if they sit in shield the decay + CB + Fsmash will cause a shield break.

I like to try and stick them when they are returning to stage, someone like corrin is easy to stick when she bairs to go further or just generally because you aren't always doing that, you are going in and bairing/dairing/nairing, so they have to react to tons of stuff. Again a fsmash on the ledge suddenly becomes a solid option, they jump wrong and the explosion gets them hit with both, they roll and fsmash gets a charged hit, they wait on the ledge too long they get stage spiked. They jump, you can bair (this only applies if you opt not to charge the fsmash after the sticky) in a timing where they are truly frame trapped, ie bair before the explosion. If they airdodge, they get hit with CB and you can return to juggling, otherwise they get hit. Only a few characters can outmaneuver megaman in the air.



Today ,I hit a CB on an offstage corrin. I tried to trump (trump can work, but sometimes you get stuck...) but she buffered a roll, which happened to be what I chose. We both flew up offstage, and because she had more damage than me it was childsplay to hit a buffered bair. She was in more stun than me. 4 frames more hitstun and they are combo'd. Any less and you can simply assume they mash airdodge and hit a rising bair or even uair at high damage.


Final note. Full hop fair into landing uair is frame tight, if you buffer it. You get a nice landing uair, and a mediocre spacing fair. This is a good way to learn how to safely uair pressure, sliding away while you land means you are pretty safe.


Also leaf shield is actually alright. When you have a shield up, you still have access to metal blade throws/zdrop/grab/roll/jump. Also, you can act pretty fast out of it. I sometimes just walk up and try and combo a leaf hit into usmash, it can get you surprise kills. You can jump out and try and leafstool, then bair them ASAP for trying to dodge the shield. way too slow for neutral though.

Sorry for typos, this is my low-mid level analysis. Questions, comments, let me have it. I think MM has a niche at the top level for Cloud (still losing though, but not bad at all) Corrin (actually bad for her). Against absorbers, leaf shield + metal blade pressure is all non absorbable =D

MM also does damn well vs Sonic, Villager, Heavies, anyone gimpable... IMO Mario is close to even, you have tons of options. Most MM will disagree and that is fine.
 
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my_T

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You guys should definitely vote for Peabnut for Bootcamp, just saying.

Also so this connects to the conversation Ness has good players, a solid matchup against Bayo and Diddy and results still, despite the lack of travelling by mains to big tournaments. I think that Ness is still top 20 at the top level for this reason.

Okay go vote for Peab now
Ness has a solid match-up against Diddy? Show me the carfax
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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Captain falcon is even [against puff] because crouch beats all of his options out of a dash.
Falcon is more than just "Dash Options: The Character" though. There's plenty of options to mix up or beat a crouching Puff. Dash attack still works when spaced properly, bair still works that low, and using movement options like dashes and empty hops are certainly ways of provoking an option out of Puff that can be responded to with an attack or a defensive option if the puff tends to attack. But I want to throw this out there for you: Why should Falcon approach? What's stopping Falcon from playing the war of attrition and exploiting all of Puff's weaknesses?
 

MercuryPenny

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So the match up for :foxmelee:against :marthmelee:is considered even in Melee. Is :4marth:against:4fox:still considered even?
i don't play either (aside from fooling about with marth sometimes and having a friend who plays fox) but i'm willing to bet it's advantage fox. marth doesn't have an easy time landing and fox has one of the best advantage states. marth does have large disjoints, but is pretty reliant on precise spacing because of his much weaker sourspots, and fox's speed can potentially disrupt said spacing. they both obliterate each other offstage, marth may have a slight advantage in neutral but fox can make it plenty tricky.

to my knowledge, any fast characters who can catch landings (or keep him in the air) easily give marth a pretty hard time
 

Bowserboy3

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:4marth:v:4fox: is one of, if not my current most played MU's, as I play this with my friend (f*ck you spaceman, smh). Please allow me to give some insight...

If I am brutally honest, the Fox's playstyle changes this MU a BIG deal. If Fox is one that likes to try and get in and pressure with buttons, this makes it difficult for Marth to get things going, but it's easier to deal with; may even be even. If Fox decides he wants to simply run away and camp, he wins. No way around it. It's a MU that IMO, can go from even to losing, simply with how the Fox decides to play.

Now, it's not totally easy to simply "run away". If Fox wants to run away to a platform or to the edge, that's not ideal, because Marth has a big sword and can juggle/pressure/trap Fox in these situations. Fox should be trying to force Marth to approach with the occasional laser, then crossing him up as he approaches, with something like an aerial, or even a Dash Attack, pivot Ftilt, etc, and then rinse and repeat. It's tedious and it's why you don't see many top level Foxes doing this, but it's absolutely WAY more tedious for Marth.

Marth however still has all the buttons and options to pressure Fox, regardless of the playstyle. Jab and Utilt are the buttons Marth wants to prioritise vs a more campy Fox, as these arc in areas which cover infront and around him, which in turn, still make Fox think what he wants to do when trying to escape Marth, as both of these connected on him lead to nice damage.

Some finer points on the MU:

What :4marth:can do
  • The obvious stuff - Fox is a sucker to Dancing Blade. It's arguably this reason alone that Marth is just a flat out better option in this MU over Lucina when comparing the two, there's no way around it. It's a bit silly.
  • Dthrow to tipper Uair is relatively easy on Fox - can KO as early as 80% on T&C.
  • Jab cancels on Fox, again, are silly. Catch his jump and tipper him at 45% and watch him fly!
    • He's also one of the few characters that Jab to tipper Dsmash works reliably on.
  • Fox must actually think and try to mix up his timing with his Up Tilts at 0-30%. If he predicts correctly and shields at the right time, he may be able to continue. Otherwise, Dolphin Slash just gets Marth out every time. Even Uair works, and this puts Fox into a terrible position - from Utilting Marth at 0%, Marth can reverse the pressure with Uair (should Fox not shield) into a small combo that can deal upwards of 40% if done correctly.
  • Marth edgeguards Fox in general better than the inverse. Jab and Dtilt stuff out Fox Illusion flat out, and Fox simply waiting a full second before moving with Fire Fox isn't ideal in most situations; it isn't helped when your opponent has a sword. I have dealt 80% before simply by dropping from ledge and using Dolphin Slash on Fox as he recovers upwards (and then techs).
    • My favourite thing when a stock ahead is, when Fox is forced to recover upwards, catch his first Fire Fox with a falling hit 1 of aerial Dancing Blade, then use your double jump and as he charges his 2nd one, Dair spike him. Oof, makes me creamy!
  • Marth is also one of the few characters that can still perform well v Fox on Battlefield. Normally, you'd want to ban Battlefield/Dreamland vs him, but seeing as Marth gets little off of T&C anyway, he should use his ban on that, because Marth can still hurt Fox as badly as he can hurt him on tri-plats, and still work fine on all the other stages.
  • Sour Jab 1 at the ledge combos into Dolphin Slash - kills at the ledge around 80%.
What :4fox:can do
  • His general speed makes Marth putting up a general wall tough - once he has it, it works decently well, but actually setting it up can be tricky.
  • Fox's Dthrow -> Fair -> Uair is an easy 0-31%, and works strangely well on Marth compared to other characters, if due to a combination of his weight and physics.
  • Fair footstool is of course still a thing.
  • If Fox knows that Marth is forced to use his Dolphin Slash at a certain point, he can simply run off stage with Fair (no fast fall), in an attempt to trade hits with Marth. Should the trade be successful, Marth will drop downwards slightly and is then forced to use Dolphin Slash again, but because of the 50-frames or so of no ledge regrab after being hit, Marth won't be able to grab the ledge for instant safety. As such, Fox can attempt to simply continue to drop down again with a lingering hitbox like Nair to attempt to gimp Marth - without his jump, this can potentially end his stock if he's on enough percent where Nair sends him too far out.
  • Marth's average size and average fall speed means there's little he can do to avoid Dair to Usmash.
  • Fsmash can hit Marth below the ledge by surprise.
  • Fox with rage operates better in this MU than the inverse (aside from tippers in general being better). If Marth fails to land the crucial KO or fails to edgeguard and lets Fox back with high rage, he can easily reverse the disadvantage (I LOVE IT WHEN A MOVE LIKE UAIR THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO SPACE CAN KILL ME AT SUB-70%, IT'S MY FAVOURITE THING EVER... said the guy who also uses Rosalina kek).

Sometimes I dream about this MU. It's a little bit sad to be honest...
 
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FamilyTeam

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What is Sonic's matchup against Mario or Marth? Positive for Mario, Even for Marth?
EDIT: ( Should be Negative for Mario, I think Mario loses the Sonic matchup.
Answering this kind of late, but anyway
Sonic wins vs. Marcina
Marcina has a bunch of iffy matchups that vary from even to loss depending on your playstyle with the character, like some people think they lose against Rosa while some think it's perfectly fine. However, the only thing that remains very consistent is that most Marcinas don't like the Sonic MU. It's really hard to keep stage control against him, it's easy to get overwhelmed and it's hard to get even short combos on him and any solid hits. It is pretty easy to juggle him, though, and some Sonics might be easier to edgeguard than others.

Also TLDR version of what BB3 qt said about the Marcina vs. Fox MU: Hard for Marcina, you need to play your cards right and while both these characters notoriously make each other miserable it can be hard for Marth to get things started if the Fox is good enough to outsmart him in neutral and make him whiff or mispace moves to get punishes.
The only things I'll kind of "state" on the matter is that Lucina's DB also regularly KOs Fox under 90%, and if you guys want more info on Marth's Down Throw>Back Jump-Double Jump>Tipper Up Air as a kill confirm, how it works and when, you can check out our testing of it from the Marcina Lab:
Things to keep in mind:
  • Rage nullifies it;
  • Way harder to hit than it looks (you might need a good hour or two of practice to get it down);
  • You basically can't KO anybody with DThrow>Up Air if you don't do this (if you do you were either on a platform or they just didn't airdodge or jumped when they could);
  • Works best on Little Mac and Limit Cloud.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
:4marth:v:4fox: is one of, if not my current most played MU's, as I play this with my friend (f*ck you spaceman, smh). Please allow me to give some insight...

If I am brutally honest, the Fox's playstyle changes this MU a BIG deal. If Fox is one that likes to try and get in and pressure with buttons, this makes it difficult for Marth to get things going, but it's easier to deal with; may even be even. If Fox decides he wants to simply run away and camp, he wins. No way around it. It's a MU that IMO, can go from even to losing, simply with how the Fox decides to play.

Now, it's not totally easy to simply "run away". If Fox wants to run away to a platform or to the edge, that's not ideal, because Marth has a big sword and can juggle/pressure/trap Fox in these situations. Fox should be trying to force Marth to approach with the occasional laser, then crossing him up as he approaches, with something like an aerial, or even a Dash Attack, pivot Ftilt, etc, and then rinse and repeat. It's tedious and it's why you don't see many top level Foxes doing this, but it's absolutely WAY more tedious for Marth.

Marth however still has all the buttons and options to pressure Fox, regardless of the playstyle. Jab and Utilt are the buttons Marth wants to prioritise vs a more campy Fox, as these arc in areas which cover infront and around him, which in turn, still make Fox think what he wants to do when trying to escape Marth, as both of these connected on him lead to nice damage.

Some finer points on the MU:

What :4marth:can do
  • The obvious stuff - Fox is a sucker to Dancing Blade. It's arguably this reason alone that Marth is just a flat out better option in this MU over Lucina when comparing the two, there's no way around it. It's a bit silly.
  • Dthrow to tipper Uair is relatively easy on Fox - can KO as early as 80% on T&C.
  • Jab cancels on Fox, again, are silly. Catch his jump and tipper him at 45% and watch him fly!
    • He's also one of the few characters that Jab to tipper Dsmash works reliably on.
  • Fox must actually think and try to mix up his timing with his Up Tilts at 0-30%. If he predicts correctly and shields at the right time, he may be able to continue. Otherwise, Dolphin Slash just gets Marth out every time. Even Uair works, and this puts Fox into a terrible position - from Utilting Marth at 0%, Marth can reverse the pressure with Uair (should Fox not shield) into a small combo that can deal upwards of 40% if done correctly.
  • Marth edgeguards Fox in general better than the inverse. Jab and Dtilt stuff out Fox Illusion flat out, and Fox simply waiting a full second before moving with Fire Fox isn't ideal in most situations; it isn't helped when your opponent has a sword. I have dealt 80% before simply by dropping from ledge and using Dolphin Slash on Fox as he recovers upwards (and then techs).
    • My favourite thing when a stock ahead is, when Fox is forced to recover upwards, catch his first Fire Fox with a falling hit 1 of aerial Dancing Blade, then use your double jump and as he charges his 2nd one, Dair spike him. Oof, makes me creamy!
  • Marth is also one of the few characters that can still perform well v Fox on Battlefield. Normally, you'd want to ban Battlefield/Dreamland vs him, but seeing as Marth gets little off of T&C anyway, he should use his ban on that, because Marth can still hurt Fox as badly as he can hurt him on tri-plats, and still work fine on all the other stages.
  • Sour Jab 1 at the ledge combos into Dolphin Slash - kills at the ledge around 80%.
What :4fox:can do
  • His general speed makes Marth putting up a general wall tough - once he has it, it works decently well, but actually setting it up can be tricky.
  • Fox's Dthrow -> Fair -> Uair is an easy 0-31%, and works strangely well on Marth compared to other characters, if due to a combination of his weight and physics.
  • Fair footstool is of course still a thing.
  • If Fox knows that Marth is forced to use his Dolphin Slash at a certain point, he can simply run off stage with Fair (no fast fall), in an attempt to trade hits with Marth. Should the trade be successful, Marth will drop downwards slightly and is then forced to use Dolphin Slash again, but because of the 50-frames or so of no ledge regrab after being hit, Marth won't be able to grab the ledge for instant safety. As such, Fox can attempt to simply continue to drop down again with a lingering hitbox like Nair to attempt to gimp Marth - without his jump, this can potentially end his stock if he's on enough percent where Nair sends him too far out.
  • Marth's average size and average fall speed means there's little he can do to avoid Dair to Usmash.
  • Fsmash can hit Marth below the ledge by surprise.
  • Fox with rage operates better in this MU than the inverse (aside from tippers in general being better). If Marth fails to land the crucial KO or fails to edgeguard and lets Fox back with high rage, he can easily reverse the disadvantage (I LOVE IT WHEN A MOVE LIKE UAIR THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO SPACE CAN KILL ME AT SUB-70%, IT'S MY FAVOURITE THING EVER... said the guy who also uses Rosalina kek).

Sometimes I dream about this MU. It's a little bit sad to be honest...
Answering this kind of late, but anyway
Sonic wins vs. Marcina
Marcina has a bunch of iffy matchups that vary from even to loss depending on your playstyle with the character, like some people think they lose against Rosa while some think it's perfectly fine. However, the only thing that remains very consistent is that most Marcinas don't like the Sonic MU. It's really hard to keep stage control against him, it's easy to get overwhelmed and it's hard to get even short combos on him and any solid hits. It is pretty easy to juggle him, though, and some Sonics might be easier to edgeguard than others.

Also TLDR version of what BB3 qt said about the Marcina vs. Fox MU: Hard for Marcina, you need to play your cards right and while both these characters notoriously make each other miserable it can be hard for Marth to get things started if the Fox is good enough to outsmart him in neutral and make him whiff or mispace moves to get punishes.
The only things I'll kind of "state" on the matter is that Lucina's DB also regularly KOs Fox under 90%, and if you guys want more info on Marth's Down Throw>Back Jump-Double Jump>Tipper Up Air as a kill confirm, how it works and when, you can check out our testing of it from the Marcina Lab:
Things to keep in mind:
  • Rage nullifies it;
  • Way harder to hit than it looks (you might need a good hour or two of practice to get it down);
  • You basically can't KO anybody with DThrow>Up Air if you don't do this (if you do you were either on a platform or they just didn't airdodge or jumped when they could);
  • Works best on Little Mac and Limit Cloud.

Great answers from both of you users! Thanks for sharing your opinions on some of these match ups!
 

ARGHETH

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Mr. R and Light made it into the Boot Camp, while Ally, Fatality, WaDi, and Samsora were eliminated.
 
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Emblem Lord

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:4marth:v:4fox: is one of, if not my current most played MU's, as I play this with my friend (f*ck you spaceman, smh). Please allow me to give some insight...

If I am brutally honest, the Fox's playstyle changes this MU a BIG deal. If Fox is one that likes to try and get in and pressure with buttons, this makes it difficult for Marth to get things going, but it's easier to deal with; may even be even. If Fox decides he wants to simply run away and camp, he wins. No way around it. It's a MU that IMO, can go from even to losing, simply with how the Fox decides to play.

Now, it's not totally easy to simply "run away". If Fox wants to run away to a platform or to the edge, that's not ideal, because Marth has a big sword and can juggle/pressure/trap Fox in these situations. Fox should be trying to force Marth to approach with the occasional laser, then crossing him up as he approaches, with something like an aerial, or even a Dash Attack, pivot Ftilt, etc, and then rinse and repeat. It's tedious and it's why you don't see many top level Foxes doing this, but it's absolutely WAY more tedious for Marth.

Marth however still has all the buttons and options to pressure Fox, regardless of the playstyle. Jab and Utilt are the buttons Marth wants to prioritise vs a more campy Fox, as these arc in areas which cover infront and around him, which in turn, still make Fox think what he wants to do when trying to escape Marth, as both of these connected on him lead to nice damage.

Some finer points on the MU:

What :4marth:can do
  • The obvious stuff - Fox is a sucker to Dancing Blade. It's arguably this reason alone that Marth is just a flat out better option in this MU over Lucina when comparing the two, there's no way around it. It's a bit silly.
  • Dthrow to tipper Uair is relatively easy on Fox - can KO as early as 80% on T&C.
  • Jab cancels on Fox, again, are silly. Catch his jump and tipper him at 45% and watch him fly!
    • He's also one of the few characters that Jab to tipper Dsmash works reliably on.
  • Fox must actually think and try to mix up his timing with his Up Tilts at 0-30%. If he predicts correctly and shields at the right time, he may be able to continue. Otherwise, Dolphin Slash just gets Marth out every time. Even Uair works, and this puts Fox into a terrible position - from Utilting Marth at 0%, Marth can reverse the pressure with Uair (should Fox not shield) into a small combo that can deal upwards of 40% if done correctly.
  • Marth edgeguards Fox in general better than the inverse. Jab and Dtilt stuff out Fox Illusion flat out, and Fox simply waiting a full second before moving with Fire Fox isn't ideal in most situations; it isn't helped when your opponent has a sword. I have dealt 80% before simply by dropping from ledge and using Dolphin Slash on Fox as he recovers upwards (and then techs).
    • My favourite thing when a stock ahead is, when Fox is forced to recover upwards, catch his first Fire Fox with a falling hit 1 of aerial Dancing Blade, then use your double jump and as he charges his 2nd one, Dair spike him. Oof, makes me creamy!
  • Marth is also one of the few characters that can still perform well v Fox on Battlefield. Normally, you'd want to ban Battlefield/Dreamland vs him, but seeing as Marth gets little off of T&C anyway, he should use his ban on that, because Marth can still hurt Fox as badly as he can hurt him on tri-plats, and still work fine on all the other stages.
  • Sour Jab 1 at the ledge combos into Dolphin Slash - kills at the ledge around 80%.
What :4fox:can do
  • His general speed makes Marth putting up a general wall tough - once he has it, it works decently well, but actually setting it up can be tricky.
  • Fox's Dthrow -> Fair -> Uair is an easy 0-31%, and works strangely well on Marth compared to other characters, if due to a combination of his weight and physics.
  • Fair footstool is of course still a thing.
  • If Fox knows that Marth is forced to use his Dolphin Slash at a certain point, he can simply run off stage with Fair (no fast fall), in an attempt to trade hits with Marth. Should the trade be successful, Marth will drop downwards slightly and is then forced to use Dolphin Slash again, but because of the 50-frames or so of no ledge regrab after being hit, Marth won't be able to grab the ledge for instant safety. As such, Fox can attempt to simply continue to drop down again with a lingering hitbox like Nair to attempt to gimp Marth - without his jump, this can potentially end his stock if he's on enough percent where Nair sends him too far out.
  • Marth's average size and average fall speed means there's little he can do to avoid Dair to Usmash.
  • Fsmash can hit Marth below the ledge by surprise.
  • Fox with rage operates better in this MU than the inverse (aside from tippers in general being better). If Marth fails to land the crucial KO or fails to edgeguard and lets Fox back with high rage, he can easily reverse the disadvantage (I LOVE IT WHEN A MOVE LIKE UAIR THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO SPACE CAN KILL ME AT SUB-70%, IT'S MY FAVOURITE THING EVER... said the guy who also uses Rosalina kek).

Sometimes I dream about this MU. It's a little bit sad to be honest...
Foxes lose matches because they NEVER want to run.
 

JB333

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 7, 2015
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Mr. R and Light made it into the Boot Camp, while Ally, Fatality, WaDi, and Samsora were eliminated.
I am genuinely shocked that 4 top 40 PGR players got eliminated in the first round. I'm not trying to undermine the success of some of the players that are still in it, but I feel like all four of these players would've done better at the camp than everyone except Abadango, Esam, and Mr. R.

Really happy that Mr. R made it in though because he definitely deserved it!

R.I.P Fatality:crying:
 

Wintermelon43

Smash Champion
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Feb 13, 2015
Messages
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I'm actually shocked that Abadango made it but not WaDi. WaDi's been rising whereas Abadango has been falling, WaDi has been doing better than Abadango has been lately, and Abadango uses Bayonetta just as much as Mewtwo. With how much this community hates Bayo, it surprises me, espicially when it's combined with the other 2 things. Also surprised about Ally being eliminated too.
 

origamiscienceguy

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Falcon is more than just "Dash Options: The Character" though. There's plenty of options to mix up or beat a crouching Puff. Dash attack still works when spaced properly, bair still works that low, and using movement options like dashes and empty hops are certainly ways of provoking an option out of Puff that can be responded to with an attack or a defensive option if the puff tends to attack. But I want to throw this out there for you: Why should Falcon approach? What's stopping Falcon from playing the war of attrition and exploiting all of Puff's weaknesses?
I understand. Puff is more than "lol aerials" the character too. Falcon's dash options are very good and used frequently in a match, however. I am not saying that a puff should simply crouch all the time during a match it just so happens that puff has a way to beat falcon's dash options, and if done properly, a quick crouch is impossible to react to. Also, if falcon wiffs a grab or a dash attack because of a crouch, the jiggs gets a free rest. Her crouch is a powerful mixup which a Falcon has to watch out for.

As for why falcon needs to approach, Jigglypuff can also play the war of attrition. Short-hop fast-fall fair autocancels, and she can drift a large amount during it. Her dash attack is also powerful when it comes to catching landings. Captain Falcon doesn't have projectiles, or a rediculous disjoint, which is the best way to shut down a camping jigglypuff. He makes up for this with his burst options... which is risky because crouch.

Like most of her matchups, she can do well when she has the lead, but suffers otherwise.

Also, edgeguarding Falcon is much easier than it is for the rest of the cast. For all these reasons, I feel that the matchup is EVEN.
 

FamilyTeam

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The document gave examples of the various di, but is there a gif or footage or someone doing the kill confirm as well as the bair (should the opponent di out)? Just so I know when I'm practicing if I'm doing it right.
I could try and find, however I think I have only seen it used to actually kill once or twice in tournament. MKLeo actually does this a lot to extend the window DThrow>Up Air works as just combo with rage, and really this is the best and most common application of this. I'll ask the lab if they have any video of this and post it here later.
 

Wintermelon43

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Feb 13, 2015
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What criteria was required?
You just needed to get points. The four with the least amount were eliminated.

As others said, it mostly has to do with not campaigning or getting a lot of players to vote for you at one time why they were eliminated.
 
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