Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Envoy of Chaos]

I used to think Zelda had hidden potential and who knows she might she has some placing and has a handful of notable reps but on the other hand

She's terribly slow
She's rather light yet a taller frame so she still eats combos
Her aerial game might as well not exist aside Nair which is a rather solid move.
She has literally no way to approach so she's forced to play defense which she can't really do either. She can't keep away for long nor can she escape so she gets overwhelmed by pressure and crumbles. She has a rather solid combo game and good raw power but actually getting it to hit requires a read or your opponent messing up. If she didn't have her down throw up air or those specific lightning kick confirms she'd be really bad.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

In my opinion, puff goes even with Captain Falcon, gannondorf, and maybe wii fit. Everybody else is a disadvantage.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Furthermore, of [zelda's] matchups, Mario, Ness, Luigi, Falcon, Villager, and ROB probably are even.

can i have your dealer's number

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ehhhh, you're prolly right, Ima PM that to yu.


Why are we even talking about Zelda. We know she bottom tier, and when someone said something different, they have to explain. This guy didn't.

 

[The-Technique]

Falcon? Ness? Luigi? How is Zelda even with any of those characters?

Zelda is a defensive character without the tools or frame data to defend herself. I don't see how she does anything against Luigi, let alone Falcon.

not that i think zelda is good or anything, but i would say zelda does ok vs Falcon. zelda cant approach worth **** but falcon's approach all the time so its less work for her to get combos started, plus zelda herself is a bit harder to combo since shes floaty (but she also has trouble landing if falcon is patient and watches for neutral B). both characters body eachother in advantage

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Tbh I actually don't mind when low tier characters get brought up. Can we talk about Wii fit trainer, or bowser jr? What are the thoughts on them? Any niches they can fill in?

 

[ぱみゅ]

not that i think zelda is good or anything, but i would say zelda does ok vs Falcon. zelda cant approach worth **** but falcon's approach all the time so its less work for her to get combos started, plus zelda herself is a bit harder to combo since shes floaty (but she also has trouble landing if falcon is patient and watches for neutral B). both characters body eachother in advantage

Captain Falcon is fragile by design, almost every low tier has a chance against him due to his somewhat linear (yet quite potent) neutral and abysmal disadvantage state.
He feels like a glass canon who either destroys his opponents and places Second at SSC, or gets destroyed and drowns in pools.

That being said, Falcon has very good tools to bait and punish Zelda's anything, and his Uair overwhelms her when she's being juggled.

 

[Lord Dio]

something I've been wondering, what are sonic's flaws exactly? Amazing groudn game, good aerials, good combos, decent recovery, good options for killing, I'm just not sure what his real flaws are.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He feels like a glass canon who either destroys his opponents and places Second at SSC

You mean Civil War or Momocon, right?

 

[Ilikebugs]

He means Civil War, Momocon is a bad event that noone cares about because Zero didn't get 1st or 49th.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

not that i think zelda is good or anything, but i would say zelda does ok vs Falcon. zelda cant approach worth **** but falcon's approach all the time so its less work for her to get combos started, plus zelda herself is a bit harder to combo since shes floaty (but she also has trouble landing if falcon is patient and watches for neutral B). both characters body eachother in advantage

Yeah, BAD Falcons approach all the time. Falcon has some pretty good defensive options. Also Zelda's combos are not all that hard to avoid. Smartly mix up your DI on down throw and up throw, and just don't run straight into down tilt and up tilt. Also, Zelda's not really hard to juggle. If someone's not at least somewhat aware of Nayru's love when juggling Zelda I dunno what to tell ya, at that point they just need to get good in general, that's not really a Falcon specific thing.

 

[Minordeth]

something I've been wondering, what are sonic's flaws exactly? Amazing groudn game, good aerials, good combos, decent recovery, good options for killing, I'm just not sure what his real flaws are.

Sonic’s flaws are more apparent when you dive into his frame data. Sonic has poor anti-air options; outside of Nair he doesn’t have anything in the air that’s safe on shield; outside of spinning to win, none of his ground options are safe on shield; he has good airspeed but his air acceleration is trash tier (in the same range as DDD and Bowser).

Basically, whenever he leaves the ground, he is committing. He doesn’t have the ability to weave at all, unlike some of the other floatier characters like Peach. He has to be clever with his jukes, combined with his great ground mobility, in order to not have the most predictable approach.

He struggles with big, disjointed hit boxes and he relies on hit and run tactics, which only work when his opponent doesn’t have enough speed or disjoint to corner him.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sonic’s flaws are more apparent when you dive into his frame data. Sonic has poor anti-air options; outside of Nair he doesn’t have anything in the air that’s safe on shield; outside of spinning to win, none of his ground options are safe on shield; he has good airspeed but his air acceleration is trash tier (in the same range as DDD and Bowser).

Basically, whenever he leaves the ground, he is committing. He doesn’t have the ability to weave at all, unlike some of the other floatier characters like Peach. He has to be clever with his jukes, combined with his great ground mobility, in order to not have the most predictable approach.

He struggles with big, disjointed hit boxes and he relies on hit and run tactics, which only work when his opponent doesn’t have enough speed or disjoint to corner him.

So what would make that Sonics certian bad MU's. Cloud is still likely losing for Sonic despite how amazing KEN is in that MU. Bayo is also looking like a poor MU for Sonic too. Who else would have high speed and disjoint. Marcina maybe? possibly MK?

 

[The-Technique]

So what would make that Sonics certian bad MU's. Cloud is still likely losing for Sonic despite how amazing KEN is in that MU. Bayo is also looking like a poor MU for Sonic too. Who else would have high speed and disjoint. Marcina maybe? possibly MK?

KEN released a matchup chart a few days ago, Bayo is Sonic's worst matchup by far as -2, while Cloud is only minor disadvantage at -0.5.

https://twitter.com/KENisbg/status/928094898493865984

 

[ぱみゅ]

KEN is massively overblowing the disadvantage Sonic might have in the Matchup.
After watching his set versus Tweek I didn't really notice anything Bayo-exclusive that would make the MU that much difficult.
Tweek was basically waiting until Ken committed into something, Ken was probably playing too cautious, shielding a bit too much so he got grabbed a lot, and when he got combo'd he tried to mix up his DI, but Tweek followed the same combo pattern and some of them happened to carry Ken to the blastzone.

The machup might be in favor of Bayonetta, but it isn't as big as he states, Sonic has a very good grab game (range, distance he can punish from, combos), and while Spindash is an easy target for Witch Time, Sonic can just jump airdodge immediately and not receive any punishment.

 

[soniczx123]

something I've been wondering, what are sonic's flaws exactly? Amazing groudn game, good aerials, good combos, decent recovery, good options for killing, I'm just not sure what his real flaws are.

Lack of safe approaches (every move which isn't SpinDash is negative on shield, has not the best startup and lots of endlag)

Terrible air mobility (almost Ryu-level. He makes a hard commitment when he leaves the ground.) For that reason his tomahawk game also sucks. That coupled with his floaty nature and lack of big aerial hitboxes makes it really easy to juggle him and keep him in disadvantage. Characters like Cloud, Bayo, ZSS and MK abuse this the hardest (he's surprisingly easy to ladder).

SpinDash being really unsafe when it hits a shield, as his options become extremely limited at that point and has to make a hard read or mix up well and have his opponent guess wrong in order to return to neutral.

The machup might be in favor of Bayonetta, but it isn't as big as he states, Sonic has a very good grab game (range, distance he can punish from, combos), and while Spindash is an easy target for Witch Time, Sonic can just jump airdodge immediately and not receive any punishment.

The MU becomes really hard for Sonic once Bayo bans FD, as every other stage has platform which allows her to platform camp which Sonic has next to no answer to.

Also, if Bayo WTs a Spindash, she can always jab or Utilt Sonic before he manages to jump Spring so that's a non-issue (I've tried it and Jump Spring doesn't work unless the Bayo messses up hard.)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He means Civil War, Momocon is a bad event that noone cares about because Zero didn't get 1st or 49th.

Uh, hello?

Plenty exciting happened at the event, mister.

 

[Rizen]

I think Sonic's mobility is being significantly downplayed. His run speed is in a class of its own at 3.5; CF's, at 2nd place, is 2.32. This allows for crazy pivot grabs and burst options. 14th in traction and 7th in walk speed so it's not like he has a hidden weakness like Luigi or Charizard.
His air mobility isn't bad. 9th best air speed, tied with DK, average frame 5 JS, his acceleration is .05 total on par with Link's (still significantly better than Ryu's at .035) but he has a stalling homing attack, burst side B and long up B that's intangible frames 5-13. That's still pretty respectable.

A lot of Sonic's mentioned weaknesses can be gotten around by his bait and punish mobility. He can safely wait outside the opponent's reach and dash in at the perfect time.

 

[soniczx123]

I think Sonic's mobility is being significantly downplayed. His run speed is in a class of its own at 3.5; CF's, at 2nd place, is 2.32. This allows for crazy pivot grabs and burst options. 14th in traction and 7th in walk speed so it's not like he has a hidden weakness like Luigi or Charizard.
His air mobility isn't bad. 9th best air speed, tied with DK, average frame 5 JS, his acceleration is .05 total on par with Link's (still significantly better than Ryu's at .035) but he has a stalling homing attack, burst side B and long up B that's intangible frames 5-13. That's still pretty respectable.

A lot of Sonic's mentioned weaknesses can be gotten around by his bait and punish mobility. He can safely wait outside the opponent's reach and dash in at the perfect time.

Side B falls straight after release so it doesn't help in air mobility.

Homing Attack has too much startup so it only works as a desperate mixup. Whiffing or not locking on is way worse in comparison to hitting someone or their shield.

UpB is a great recovery move, but outside of that it's not good to help his horizontal aerial mobility.

He doesn't have exactly good burst range as well. He doesn't have the greatest dash speed, his DA isn't the best and Dash Grab is terrible. He's more proficient in the midrange than the burst range (Fox and Falcon are better in the burst range)

 

[TigerBizNiz]

In my opinion, puff goes even with Captain Falcon, gannondorf, and maybe wii fit. Everybody else is a disadvantage.

What about ? I've had a couple of Puff mains claim that the mu is even (or even in Puff's favor).

 

[|RK|]

What about ? I've had a couple of Puff mains claim that the mu is even (or even in Puff's favor).

Wouldn't know, but doesn't Bowser Jr. kind of thrive on his opponents jumping at him? His air to air game is legitimately solid.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Wouldn't know, but doesn't Bowser Jr. kind of thrive on his opponents jumping at him? His air to air game is legitimately solid.

To be honest, I have never once played a good koopa kid. I can see how it might be even, but don’t have the experience to tell you.

Captain falcon is even because crouch beats all of his options out of a dash.

Gabon is a very volatile match up in both directions, but I think it evens out.

Wii fit is also destroyed by crouch, but he has enough options to deal with it, (soccer ball, deep breathing to force an approach, etc.) and his recovery is not nearly as exploitable as falcon and gannondorf. Still might be even, but definitely worse than falcon and dorf.

 

[BTVolta]

Wii fit is also destroyed by crouch, but he has enough options to deal with it, (soccer ball, deep breathing to force an approach, etc.) and his recovery is not nearly as exploitable as falcon and gannondorf. Still might be even, but definitely worse than falcon and dorf.

I find the MU even or slight in either favor. Personally I've never lost to a Puff and I've played quite a few, but I've never felt like I've had a solid advantage against her or felt like it was anything close to an uphill battle. I find her crouch to be pretty useless compared to Kirby since her options out of crouch aren't as scary as other characters(Kirby intangible limbs, Sheik tilts that lead to devastating combos, ETC) which means Wii Fit can just camp like normal and not approach except for an occasional FH Nair and FH bair to catch jump ins. Big difference in Kirby vs Puff also being Kirby can threaten to swallow if he trips you or catches you with an uptilt and at that point the MU is over. Puff has to rely on edgeguarding Wii Fit, which she's perfectly capable doing, to make up for her neutral lacking a bit.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Maybe the wii fits in my region are more grab-happy than you are. So many times they go for a dash grab, miss because I crouched, then get rested.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Maybe the wii fits in my region are more grab-happy than you are. So many times they go for a dash grab, miss because I crouched, then get rested.

sounds like matchup inexperience. interactions like this happening frequently should never be an argument point for matchup ratios.

 

[BTVolta]

Maybe the wii fits in my region are more grab-happy than you are. So many times they go for a dash grab, miss because I crouched, then get rested.

They deserve it for turning off their brains like that. Wii Fit's grab range(outside of pivot) is terrible and grab reward is so minimal the only reason they should be attempting to dash grab Puff is after a sun charge when people just hold shield, but even then Puff can safely pound to beat a sun being thrown out and take a light punish for getting it shield unless Wii Fit is turned around. Puff definitely has the single most devastating crouch punish(rest), but there's no reason to approach her in this position when you can charge sun, get deep breathing(or use it as a bait), or do a header cancel set up.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

There is one really good wii fit in my region, I’ll try asking him for friendlies sometime. I’m a much worse player, so I don’t expect to win, but I guess I could get a feel for each other’s options and interactions. I’ll post back afterwards.

 

[my_T]

Does Sonics aerial side B have invincibility frames like the grounded version?

 

[BSP]

Terrible air mobility (almost Ryu-level. He makes a hard commitment when he leaves the ground.) For that reason his tomahawk game also sucks. That coupled with his floaty nature and lack of big aerial hitboxes makes it really easy to juggle him and keep him in disadvantage. Characters like Cloud, Bayo, ZSS and MK abuse this the hardest (he's surprisingly easy to ladder).

It still baffles me that people who play characters with safe falling aerials don't force Sonic to fight vertically if they get a lead. Not only do you neutralize spin dash game by not being level with Sonic, but you force him to jump in order to contest you.

 

[Krysco]

It still baffles me that people who play characters with safe falling aerials don't force Sonic to fight vertically if they get a lead. Not only do you neutralize spin dash game by not being level with Sonic, but you force him to jump in order to contest you.

Out of curiosity, would you happen to have a list, even just one off the top of your head of characters that have such aerials? Might shed some light for some character's mus vs the blue blur. Also quite interesting that if platform camping is so good vs Sonic that the mu for some turns into lame him out or be lamed out. Unless you're KEN and you go for yolo fsmashes and pivot bthrows a lot.

 

[FeelMeUp]

platform camping is crazy effective against most of the cast, honestly.
some characters have 0 answers against it and others have shield pressure which can be completely mitigated with shield dropping.

 

[BSP]

Out of curiosity, would you happen to have a list, even just one off the top of your head of characters that have such aerials? Might shed some light for some character's mus vs the blue blur. Also quite interesting that if platform camping is so good vs Sonic that the mu for some turns into lame him out or be lamed out. Unless you're KEN and you go for yolo fsmashes and pivot bthrows a lot.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1478544066

Any character with an aerial or two that's + on drop.

It's even better if you have a good OOS game that can punish Sonic for touching your shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvb83IPO20

M2K is the only player I've seen go for this strat. He ultimately wins the set (yes, I watched the whole thing at one point), and you can see the risks Sonic has to take to contest you up there.

 

[my_T]

It still baffles me that people who play characters with safe falling aerials don't force Sonic to fight vertically if they get a lead. Not only do you neutralize spin dash game by not being level with Sonic, but you force him to jump in order to contest you.

KEN has shown time and time again why this isn't a viable strategy. Doesn't matter how safe your aerial is if said aerial can't cover pivot grab (look at KEN vs Nairos ZSS). Side B is still a viable option against aerials as well thanks to the invincibility. The Sonic player just has to be more precise with their spacing and timing.

Then theirs his dash speed. These safe aerials that some characters have are only safe with proper spacing and Sonics obnoxious dash speed and 12 frame dash to speed will do good in causing the opponent to miss-space and land on his shield. Forcing Sonic to fight air to air isn't a bad idea what with his stubby hitboxes on everything except bair. However, his dash speed makes this difficult as well

I think Cloud and Bayo are the only characters that can get some mileage out of this strategy because their nairs cover cross-ups really well and their air mobility specs lets them throw these moves out without much risk. GG's to the rest of the roster

 

[HoSmash4]

platform camping is crazy effective against most of the cast, honestly.
some characters have 0 answers against it and others have shield pressure which can be completely mitigated with shield dropping.

Sheik sttruggles vs it :/

 

[Rizen]

From a player's perspective, I definitely have noticed the MU is much more manageable on platform stages (not TnC which is huge). On FD/TnC Sonic has a solid advantage; he can freaking pivot grab you from across FD. Sonic's Bthrow flips backward to move closer to the ledge when he does this. Then on SV Sonic still wins but is easier. On BF Link beats Sonic +1 (IMO). Tri-plats are banned together so Sonic has a better time picking stages. I often end up on Lylat as a 'discount BF', in weeklies.

About safe on shield aerials: Link has some good ones in N/F/B/Zair all being + on drop. I've adopted T's strategy of SH FF Nair in neutral and it actually is pretty effective, especially vs SH happy characters. With that said, you can't rely on this as a safe strategy but rather one of many tools in footsies. Why? Because OoS options still beat it without perfect spacing. Players catch on to repeated actions and respond with bait and punish burst options and shield dash>OoS.

Similarly platform camping can be poked from underneath or simply hit with an aerial that punishes landings. It is a good strategy and Link's one of the best at it with things like Nair (+5 on shield drop, 10 frames landing lag) and bombs which true combo into Fair for a wide % range from above.

My point is that players develop counterplay if you overuse a strategy. Platforming camping really helps but isn't the answer to Sonic; rather another tool to use against him.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1478544066

Any character with an aerial or two that's + on drop.

It's even better if you have a good OOS game that can punish Sonic for touching your shield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYvb83IPO20

M2K is the only player I've seen go for this strat. He ultimately wins the set (yes, I watched the whole thing at one point), and you can see the risks Sonic has to take to contest you up there.

Any for other characters?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So peeps are finally accepting that about half the cast is fodder?

Bout time.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So peeps are finally accepting that about half the cast is fodder?

Bout time.

Fodder for what?

 

[Deleted member]

Reading the Sonic match - up discussion in the chat... very interesting...

 

[Guido65]

Sheik sttruggles vs it :/

What makes sheik struggle with platform camping exactly?