Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

What region would KY be considered?

Safe bet for KY is to go Midwest, especially if you live in Northern Kentucky like I do (like super close to Cincinnati, 15-20 minutes away tops). I put Midwest, but specifically KY.

Mr R. beat Dabuz with his secondary Cloud. He had a really interesting point (he might of actually said it in this thread) about how he had practiced the Cloud vs Rosa matchup extensively with Kirihara in Japan, but since it wasn't streamed everyone assumed it was just a pocket, when in fact he had put the time and the work in to do well with it.

Something worth noting: Dabuz swapped for Oli for at least game 5, don't remember if it was there for game 4 or not.
He also went Bayo vs Dabuz Game 2, and he was clearly confident if he was willing to go bayo vs dabuz.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Safe bet for KY is to go Midwest, especially if you live in Northern Kentucky like I do (like super close to Cincinnati, 15-20 minutes away tops). I put Midwest, but specifically KY

Not to be weird or anything, but I live in Cincinnati, and I can literally walk to Newport. You live in Louisville or something?

You guys also brought up Mario not being able to lean off just good fundamentals anymore. What does this mean for mario's future and his meta?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of what characters do and do not work as secondaries/pockets I know there is a popular consensus that were saying Bayo does not work in that role. But Tweek's Bayo is actullay looking pretty solid. I mean he beat KEN using her after all


In that set I did hear the commenators say that Tweek was actually was taking advice from Salem, especially for the Sonic MU.

I think we can say that Tweeks secondary Bayo is looking legitamite

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Link is an interesting character versus cloud honestly, as he contests him very well offstage, but im not so sure how he does in other areas (can a link main inform me on this?). If anything, the mid tier swordsman that seems to do does decent versus cloud is shulk. Top clouds being 1-4 versus shulk and Kome's success versus many of the top Japanese clouds support this imo.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't think there's much point in running secondaries honestly. Especially at high levels of play.

Even if your secondary is easy to play, switching play styles, especially midset, it is usually not worth the trouble.

I ended up choosing to learn how to navigate Greninja's hard match ups instead of using a secondary Mewtwo, and I feel I have better understanding of Greninja and have generally played better after deciding to solo main. Something to think about.

 

[Minordeth]

Tweek’s Bayo is a legit secondary. Watch his stream, he practices with her quite a bit.

As for legit secondaries... I question the value of secondaries for MUs specifically since most players don’t know enough about this game to make a significant difference, realistically. Also, there is no MU at the top that has a hard counter.

If you want a secondary, what I would do, and what seems to work, is pick up a secondary that you actually do well with, that you can switch gears with, that you can win with, when your main isn’t cutting it for whatever reason. At this point in the meta, that’s more valuable than trying to legitimately cover your mains weaknesses in a specific MU.

Like, DK isn’t realistically covering the MUs that Cloud is possibly not good at. But Tweek pulls him out to counter say, Leo as a player. Likewise, Peach and Wii Fit aren’t going to do better in a given MU than Bayo, but Zack still pulls them out.

Nairo pulls out anything because he can.

 

[Vyrnx]

I consider KY South for almost any sort of grouping, but as far as Smash goes, KY is interacting more with areas like Ohio and Illinois than areas in the South, so it may as well be considered Midwest for Smash regions. Especially since our biggest scene for Smash is Louisville, which, like Cincy metro, is somewhat of a cultural outlier within KY anyway. Placing Lexington's smash scene would be the real challenge, but other than that, not a lot of Smash activity in the state anyway.

 

[Lord Dio]

Not to be weird or anything, but I live in Cincinnati, and I can literally walk to Newport. You live in Louisville or something?

Nah, it takes 15-20 m,inutes to drive with traffic from where I am. NKU area.
Actually thinking about it 20 minutes seems to much, 15 at the most in the afternoon/evening.

At this point in the meta, that’s more valuable than trying to legitimately cover your mains weaknesses in a specific MU.

Like what WaDi. Does. Don't cover your weaknesses, abuse character strengths.
Or in this case, your strengths as a player, instead of covering your weaknesses of against the person you're fighting.

 

[The-Technique]

Mk Leo fought T at today's MSM, but he went Marth. So much for data collection :/

 

[Rizen]

^I'd rather fight Cloud than Marth as Link.


vs :

Link doesn't "counter" anyone but has the tools to combat everyone. I've seen a tourney Link player Unknown argue Link wins and another tourney player LAWZ argue Cloud wins. IMO Cloud wins +1.

It's really a matter of outclassing Link. Limit kills earlier and better than Link's setups, better mobility, sometimes better reach, and better frame data. Seriously Cloud has a frame 4 jumpsquat, same as Sheik WTF? Cloud has the reach on air moves like D/Bair to beat Link. Utilt combos at low %s. Uair is very hard to contest from above, Dair must be precisely positioned on Cloud's hand, so Cloud has an annoying vortex to juggle Link. Cloud's dash attack is a little mentioned but really good move; it's fast and kills at 130%ish for a good burst kill. DTilt also is a good anti-zoning burst move with intangible feet. Blade Beam is tall enough to make SH spamming difficult but Link does outcamp. Offstage Cloud has the reach to gimp Link but he can't go deep at least. Cloud's Nair is crazy. Cloud has an easier time picking stages because his mobility and limit charging make TnC a bad choice for Link while Link doesn't have any great CPs vs Cloud, BF's my choice but Cloud's vortex is good there.

has some strong points and can win if he successfully plays to his strengths. As much as I complain about jab being slow, frame 7, it's not without merits. Link's jab uses his sword and has a longer reach (one of the longest in the game) than faster swordsmen 'step forward jabs'. Cloud's only (non-limit) ground attack that outranges Link's jab is his Fsmash which is too slow to throw out. At high %s Link's jab combos into ground spin attack. Link generally has safer pokes and a better ground game. Grab and Zair both zone Cloud with long reach and Link has Dthrow combos on Cloud from 20% on.
Because Link can spam 3 projectiles and kill from bombs he forces Limit Cloud to approach for the kill. Link also can use these to platform camp but it's risky because Cloud's stupid js and Uair are so good. Link can limit Cloud's movement options offstage and has long lasting aerials that beat dodges, notably Nair. Ftilt hits below the stage and can stop ledgesnaps with good timing.

In the end Cloud has an easier time doing what he does. :/


PS
I filled out that Bayo survey.

 

[The-Technique]

^I'd rather fight Cloud than Marth as Link.


vs :

Link doesn't "counter" anyone but has the tools to combat everyone. I've seen a tourney Link player Unknown argue Link wins and another tourney player LAWZ argue Cloud wins. IMO Cloud wins +1.

It's really a matter of outclassing Link. Limit kills earlier and better than Link's setups, better mobility, sometimes better reach, and better frame data. Seriously Cloud has a frame 4 jumpsquat, same as Sheik WTF? Cloud has the reach on air moves like D/Bair to beat Link. Utilt combos at low %s. Uair is very hard to contest from above, Dair must be precisely positioned on Cloud's hand, so Cloud has an annoying vortex to juggle Link. Cloud's dash attack is a little mentioned but really good move; it's fast and kills at 130%ish for a good burst kill. DTilt also is a good anti-zoning burst move with intangible feet. Blade Beam is tall enough to make SH spamming difficult but Link does outcamp. Offstage Cloud has the reach to gimp Link but he can't go deep at least. Cloud's Nair is crazy. Cloud has an easier time picking stages because his mobility and limit charging make TnC a bad choice for Link while Link doesn't have any great CPs vs Cloud, BF's my choice but Cloud's vortex is good there.

has some strong points and can win if he successfully plays to his strengths. As much as I complain about jab being slow, frame 7, it's not without merits. Link's jab uses his sword and has a longer reach (one of the longest in the game) than faster swordsmen 'step forward jabs'. Cloud's only (non-limit) ground attack that outranges Link's jab is his Fsmash which is too slow to throw out. At high %s Link's jab combos into ground spin attack. Link generally has safer pokes and a better ground game. Grab and Zair both zone Cloud with long reach and Link has Dthrow combos on Cloud from 20% on.
Because Link can spam 3 projectiles and kill from bombs he forces Limit Cloud to approach for the kill. Link also can use these to platform camp but it's risky because Cloud's stupid js and Uair are so good. Link can limit Cloud's movement options offstage and has long lasting aerials that beat dodges, notably Nair. Ftilt hits below the stage and can stop ledgesnaps with good timing.

In the end Cloud has an easier time doing what he does. :/


PS
I filled out that Bayo survey.

Makes sense, there's no denying Cloud wins it but Link definitely has the tools to put up a fight.

Good news is...T beat Manny and KEN in the same tournament tonight. His performance against Sonic has definitely improved!

 

[TDK]

My opinion on Link-Cloud is very biased because I'm just awful at fighting Cloud regardless of character (I know this isn't the thread for that, but if there's any tips you guys have I'd love to hear them). Besides, even if Link was magically one of the best in the game vs Cloud, he's one of the hardest characters in the game to play well, and DK/Bowser do pretty well while also being some of the easiest characters in the game. So there's not much point unless you're actually a Link main.

Also, T 2-1 KEN at this week's MSM, right after beating Static Manny 2-1. No footage, sadly, I'd like to see what he did differently.

EDIT: 'd

 

[RonNewcomb]

^I'd rather fight Cloud than Marth as Link.


vs :

Link doesn't "counter" anyone but has the tools to combat everyone. I've seen a tourney Link player Unknown argue Link wins and another tourney player LAWZ argue Cloud wins. IMO Cloud wins +1.

It's really a matter of outclassing Link. Limit kills earlier and better than Link's setups, better mobility, sometimes better reach, and better frame data. Seriously Cloud has a frame 4 jumpsquat, same as Sheik WTF? Cloud has the reach on air moves like D/Bair to beat Link. Utilt combos at low %s. Uair is very hard to contest from above, Dair must be precisely positioned on Cloud's hand, so Cloud has an annoying vortex to juggle Link. Cloud's dash attack is a little mentioned but really good move; it's fast and kills at 130%ish for a good burst kill. DTilt also is a good anti-zoning burst move with intangible feet. Blade Beam is tall enough to make SH spamming difficult but Link does outcamp. Offstage Cloud has the reach to gimp Link but he can't go deep at least. Cloud's Nair is crazy. Cloud has an easier time picking stages because his mobility and limit charging make TnC a bad choice for Link while Link doesn't have any great CPs vs Cloud, BF's my choice but Cloud's vortex is good there.

has some strong points and can win if he successfully plays to his strengths. As much as I complain about jab being slow, frame 7, it's not without merits. Link's jab uses his sword and has a longer reach (one of the longest in the game) than faster swordsmen 'step forward jabs'. Cloud's only (non-limit) ground attack that outranges Link's jab is his Fsmash which is too slow to throw out. At high %s Link's jab combos into ground spin attack. Link generally has safer pokes and a better ground game. Grab and Zair both zone Cloud with long reach and Link has Dthrow combos on Cloud from 20% on.
Because Link can spam 3 projectiles and kill from bombs he forces Limit Cloud to approach for the kill. Link also can use these to platform camp but it's risky because Cloud's stupid js and Uair are so good. Link can limit Cloud's movement options offstage and has long lasting aerials that beat dodges, notably Nair. Ftilt hits below the stage and can stop ledgesnaps with good timing.

In the end Cloud has an easier time doing what he does. :/


PS
I filled out that Bayo survey.

Apparently so does mkleo.

Cloud doesn't have much for rising aerials so mixing up forward hop fair vs neutral hop zair vs backhop bomb pull keeps him guessing on timing. His dair is a fraudulent landing option since Link can defeat it so many ways.

 

[Rizen]

Apparently so does mkleo.

Cloud doesn't have much for rising aerials so mixing up forward hop fair vs neutral hop zair vs backhop bomb pull keeps him guessing on timing. His dair is a fraudulent landing option since Link can defeat it so many ways.

Usually I see Cloud RAR Bairs. Link can do a lot against Cloud's Dair but Cloud's airspeed and the fact it auto-cancels still makes it risky to challenge if Cloud's close enough. The problem is Link needs to pivot or somehow move backward to space and he doesn't always have room or time.

 

[The-Technique]

My opinion on Link-Cloud is very biased because I'm just awful at fighting Cloud regardless of character (I know this isn't the thread for that, but if there's any tips you guys have I'd love to hear them). Besides, even if Link was magically one of the best in the game vs Cloud, he's one of the hardest characters in the game to play well, and DK/Bowser do pretty well while also being some of the easiest characters in the game. So there's not much point unless you're actually a Link main.

Generally you need to be aware of when Cloud is doing something unsafe and look out for where he's landing. For example, Clouds typically don't do rising aerials besides uair and n-air (and d-air but its kind of out of style these days), and n-air in particular is unsafe on hit and shield at low percents if they aren't fading away from you, same for rising u-air on shield (don't wanna get hit though).

Also, Cloud's generally like to stall themselves very briefly in the air to space a fast fall u-air or b-air for maximum safety, but this brief window is actually when they're vulnerable, you can call out their spacing with an immediate rising aerial. Probably the most rewarding thing for Cloud to do in neutral is a fast fall u-air into u-tilt into u-air x 10, but this tactic is unsafe on shield depending on where they're hitting you. If they land right in front of you, do a quick OOS option to punish Cloud. If they cross up your shield, either use a fast OOS special or just roll away.

These are just some general tips, and always keep in a mind that a good Cloud will constantly switch up their timing and tactics. But the most important thing is to never let Cloud get away with doing anything dumb, because that man is combo food and you need to make him suffer for making even the slightest mistake.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I consider KY South for almost any sort of grouping, but as far as Smash goes, KY is interacting more with areas like Ohio and Illinois than areas in the South, so it may as well be considered Midwest for Smash regions. Especially since our biggest scene for Smash is Louisville, which, like Cincy metro, is somewhat of a cultural outlier within KY anyway. Placing Lexington's smash scene would be the real challenge, but other than that, not a lot of Smash activity in the state anyway.

Metropolitan Louisville is also very close to the Indianan border.

On a side note, can we also give credit to Tsu-'s performance as well? He went through a grueling losers run beating players such as Samsora, Komorikiri, and Mistake to end at 13th.

 

[Krysco]

Decided to do something I don't usually do and actually watch part of a recent Sm4sh tournament thanks to this video:

Things I gathered from watching
-What the actual heck is up with KEN and fsmash? Is that just how he is, was it just a particular behaviour for this tournament or just top 8 or is Sonic so lacking in kill set ups and options that hail mary fsmashes are a common thing? I mean, I saw an OoS usmash kill, a bair kill iirc, some dash past pivot grab bthrow kills, an uair, an fthrow and an uthrow kill but holy cow with the fsmashes both landed and whiffed
-Pretty sure I've mentioned this before but Wadi and his nairing in neutral. Guy's certainly a way better player than I am but I don't see the appeal in it. It can't trade for crap and takes a long while to end. I see it's use as an edgeguarding move, a follow up, a punish move, a ledge prediction move but just using it in neutral? Outside of the potential reward, I don't see it and I'm personally not a fan of its risk/reward ratio. Am I missing something?
-The combination of Mewtwo's weight and rage ZSS makes me very, very sad. 2 kills at very low percents, one of them even below 50%. I'm guessing Mewtwo's tall frame doesn't help either. I was gonna comment on the amount of ZSS grabs but after rewatching, the video doesn't actually show Nairo grab too often though there is a bit where he gets a dthrow, lands on a Lylat platform and gets another grab which is probably what got me thinking he got a lot. That being said, twice I noticed a situation that happens to me a lot and drives me nuts. You end up right next to your opponent either due to a roll or a landing or something and you try to attack but you attack the complete wrong way and get punished for it. So crippling with Mewtwo since his dsmash doesn't attack behind him and getting hit as Mewtwo is a way bigger deal than it is for most other characters since he dies so easily.
-Air dodges are silly. Nairo dodging 2 uairs back to back from Abadango's Bayo (why didn't he just hold it?), Tweek's DK air dodging an MK uair from MKLeo and then perfect shielding a nair and KEN air dodging 2 MK uairs back to back. The landing lag is admittedly a nice addition compared to how Brawl handled it but I swear, especially when it comes to edgeguarding (which none of these mentioned situations were) air dodging seems so damn free.
-MKLeo hopping right into grapplers, especially when they're in shield. It's one thing if he is behind either by percent or stock but if he's in the lead, why approach? MK's burst range is larger than DK's. I guess pivot grab is an issue but if he whiffs, that should be a free dash attack and there's also the chance of a dash attack releasing you from the grab. There was one or two times where MKLeo was shield pressuring Tweek's DK and then he just fast falls a nair. Was he trying to cross up or did he think it'd shield poke? I don't see why he didn't resort more to footstooling to bide more time and possibly get more room to get away, jump on a platform or possibly Dimensional Cape away (unless the endlag is too much and he'd get dash grabbed for it, but you also gotta consider DK would have to drop shield run for however long and then land his f10-11 dash grab). Reminds me of a match I saw between MKLeo's Marth and Nairo's Bowser. Leo just could not land and kept getting grabbed. At least Marth doesn't have numerous jumps.

Now given that this was a highlight video and not the full matches, I could very well just be missing out on some conditioning which could explain the fsmashes and nairs but I'm also not interested enough to watch all of it. Oh and I've got no real comments on the Bayo's, Cloud or Rosa. All seemed pretty normal to me.

 

[|RK|]

Sonic fsmash is frequently thrown out because it has incredibly low endlag, solid kill power, and good at 2-framing.

Mewtwo Nair shouldn't be constantly thrown out, but it's still a solid option in neutral. Especially if Mewtwo crosses up his opponent. Maybe less so when people get the timing down on the multihits. Also, the reward can often be a stock.

Airdodges are not free whatsoever. Are they less risky than, say, Melee? Obviously. But airdodge reads, 50/50s, and vortexes have become such a huge part of the meta that I can't say it's free in good conscience. Good players will destroy you for airdodging. For the Bayo uair thing - honestly never thought I'd see a complaint about that. Her uair often frame traps airdodges by itself, which is one of the more frustrating things about the move. So being able to escape it every now and again is a blessing.

 

[ARISTOS]

-Pretty sure I've mentioned this before but Wadi and his nairing in neutral. Guy's certainly a way better player than I am but I don't see the appeal in it. It can't trade for crap and takes a long while to end. I see it's use as an edgeguarding move, a follow up, a punish move, a ledge prediction move but just using it in neutral? Outside of the potential reward, I don't see it and I'm personally not a fan of its risk/reward ratio. Am I missing something?.

Reward on nair is huge if it connects, and M2 has the airspeed to maneuver around possible interceptions. It's a really solid move.

-The combination of Mewtwo's weight and rage ZSS makes me very, very sad. 2 kills at very low percents, one of them even below 50%. I'm guessing Mewtwo's tall frame doesn't help either. I was gonna comment on the amount of ZSS grabs but after rewatching, the video doesn't actually show Nairo grab too often though there is a bit where he gets a dthrow, lands on a Lylat platform and gets another grab which is probably what got me thinking he got a lot. That being said, twice I noticed a situation that happens to me a lot and drives me nuts. You end up right next to your opponent either due to a roll or a landing or something and you try to attack but you attack the complete wrong way and get punished for it. So crippling with Mewtwo since his dsmash doesn't attack behind him and getting hit as Mewtwo is a way bigger deal than it is for most other characters since he dies so easily.

Yeah one of M2's biggest weaknesses is that he cannot defend behind himself at all outside of Nair OOS.

Air dodges are silly. Nairo dodging 2 uairs back to back from Abadango's Bayo (why didn't he just hold it?), Tweek's DK air dodging an MK uair from MKLeo and then perfect shielding a nair and KEN air dodging 2 MK uairs back to back. The landing lag is admittedly a nice addition compared to how Brawl handled it but I swear, especially when it comes to edgeguarding (which none of these mentioned situations were) air dodging seems so damn free.

Toning down air dodges could lead into some dirty traps. You'd do so at the risk of making Bayo/ZSS/Sheik/Diddy absolutely a menace to deal with.

MKLeo hopping right into grapplers, especially when they're in shield. It's one thing if he is behind either by percent or stock but if he's in the lead, why approach? MK's burst range is larger than DK's. I guess pivot grab is an issue but if he whiffs, that should be a free dash attack and there's also the chance of a dash attack releasing you from the grab. There was one or two times where MKLeo was shield pressuring Tweek's DK and then he just fast falls a nair. Was he trying to cross up or did he think it'd shield poke? I don't see why he didn't resort more to footstooling to bide more time and possibly get more room to get away, jump on a platform or possibly Dimensional Cape away (unless the endlag is too much and he'd get dash grabbed for it, but you also gotta consider DK would have to drop shield run for however long and then land his f10-11 dash grab). Reminds me of a match I saw between MKLeo's Marth and Nairo's Bowser. Leo just could not land and kept getting grabbed. At least Marth doesn't have numerous jumps.

MKLeo is really bad against grapplers/Ryu. Against Tweek, he often let DK return to the ledge for free instead of abusing DK's poor recovery. Too many risky nairs on shield. Not being willing to reset the situation instead of trying to land on DK and getting utilted. He needs to figure it out otherwise top players will catch on and start using grapplers against him constantly. It's a really bad personal CP to have.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

The cloud-puff matchup is a living nightmare. Once you’re above 100% one grab equals guaranteed death. I am still trying to figure out the matchup, since I don’t get the opportunity to practice against any clouds often.

 

[bc1910]

The cloud-puff matchup is a living nightmare. Once you’re above 100% one grab equals guaranteed death. I am still trying to figure out the matchup, since I don’t get the opportunity to practice against any clouds often.

Why? His throws don't kill.

I wouldn't have thought Puff survives until 100% against Cloud very often anyway.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Speaking of Puff I still claim she isn't the worst character in the game and her MU spread is probably better then most people would think. Granted she probably doesn't win any MUs but even just going even or slight disadvantage isn't that detrimental. Her off stage game is legitimately good if she get you off stage (and yes it's a big if) that might be all it takes especially against linear recoveries. And her utility in doubles isn't shabby.

Just some thoughts

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Why? His throws don't kill.

I wouldn't have thought Puff survives until 100% against Cloud very often anyway.

Grab-release into limit climbhazard.

The only option is to rest. He can then kill you with a smash attack.

 

[Game7a1]

Grab-release into limit climbhazard.

The only option is to rest. He can then kill you with a smash attack.

Good thing most Clouds don't know that. But it's more like over 115% than 100% (just tested this). I'm guessing with rage, it can be at 100%. Oddly enough, people know more about Jump Shulk's Grab Release on Puff than Cloud's.

Why? His throws don't kill.

I wouldn't have thought Puff survives until 100% against Cloud very often anyway.

Eh, people get surprised about how long Puff players tend to live on a single stock, even against Cloud. It may not be very often, but it's happens enough for people to wonder why.
Then again, they're also amazed at how early she dies.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

It is also stage dependent. Shulk is the most well known, probably because Shulk players like learning obscure tech.
Meta Knight can do it to, and his can sometimes kill stupid early, but good SDI can save you.
Marth and Lucina can also do it, but it doesn't really kill until after their throws do anyways.

 

[|RK|]

Speaking of Puff I still claim she isn't the worst character in the game and her MU spread is probably better then most people would think. Granted she probably doesn't win any MUs but even just going even or slight disadvantage isn't that detrimental. Her off stage game is legitimately good if she get you off stage (and yes it's a big if) that might be all it takes especially against linear recoveries. And her utility in doubles isn't shabby.

Just some thoughts

I think her offstage game is overrated. You can legit trade to get back to stage. And while she can cover pretty much everywhere an opponent goes, she can't cover multiple option simultaneously like some characters can.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

MKLeo is really bad against grapplers/Ryu.

Your opinion, m8.

Though at least it has explanation.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Speaking of Puff I still claim she isn't the worst character in the game and her MU spread is probably better then most people would think. Granted she probably doesn't win any MUs but even just going even or slight disadvantage isn't that detrimental. Her off stage game is legitimately good if she get you off stage (and yes it's a big if) that might be all it takes especially against linear recoveries. And her utility in doubles isn't shabby.

Just some thoughts

As someone who tried both Zelda and DDD since they were some of my most used characters from Brawl, yes, I agree that she is not the worst in the game.
She at least have tools to turn around games that are more reliable than Zelda's grab or DDD hoping the opponent mess up and eats a Hammer to their forehead.

I think her offstage game is overrated. You can legit trade to get back to stage. And while she can cover pretty much everywhere an opponent goes, she can't cover multiple option simultaneously like some characters can.

Nair is amazing at covering options, it lingers for way so long, and she is so floaty that looks like she hovers the hitbox in place.
She can't cover high and low recoveries simultaneously, but her ability to put a hitbox anywhere she wants to is legit scary.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I made a thing. Would you mind answering the survey? It will probably relevant here later.

After I filled out your survey, this video popped in my head. I was going to post it hours ago but was busy playing VainGlory. I just remembered it again about 40 mins ago so I'm posting this now.

Note: It probably has profanity in it. I forgot since it has been a while since I have watched this video.

 

[Lavani]

Why? His throws don't kill.

I wouldn't have thought Puff survives until 100% against Cloud very often anyway.

Jigglypuff has an unique air release that tosses her up rather than throwing her far away. She's at -10 frame disadvantage in this situation and has a 4f airdodge, so against anything 11~13f she's either forced to Rest or maybe double jump to avoid getting hit.

I haven't looked at this stuff since early 2016, but offhand grab release leads into Rosalina uair (with Luma), Air Slash, Shuttle Loop (though iirc MK's too short to air release naturally, so Jiggs has to press jump while mashing for this to happen), Limit Climhazzard, and probably other things.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Plus if you trade you traded off stage which can likely put you in a situation you can't recover. That extreme floatiness allows her to cover what she chooses to cover really well and while I'm not a Puff expert I can only imagine that helps her out against quite a few characters. Like mentioned above (sorry I have no idea how to @ your name lol) this will net puff stocks much better then Zelda can fish for grabs or land a lightning kick, Jr can get you into a setup or land a read or D3 can do anything.

I think we will see someone come by before S4 is said and done that can show Puff isn't the bottom barrel

 

[The-Technique]

Your opinion, m8.

Though at least it has explanation.

Leo doesn't play Cloud against grapplers even though Cloud wins those matchups hard.

He's bad against grapplers. (though he has improved greatly vs Ryu since his grind session with Takera in Japan)

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Her floatiness is actually a detriment. A bait will last longer than air dodges, but she falls so slowly that most characters will fall out of range. It might be just me, but it is really difficult to punish low recoveries because of how slow she falls.

 

[Guido65]

Speaking of Puff I still claim she isn't the worst character in the game and her MU spread is probably better then most people would think. Granted she probably doesn't win any MUs but even just going even or slight disadvantage isn't that detrimental.

Tbh I can sort of agree on the matchups thing for puff and that she isn't the worst in the game. While she may not go even or win vs, puff doesn't do that bad vs her and probably does better vs sheik than a good amount of characters and she doesn't do awfully vseither. It won't make her suddenly rise out bottom tier but the fact she has two solid matchups against top tiers like those 2 will keep her better than zelda and dedede in the long run. And for the record I think zelda is most definitely the worst in the game at this point.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Leo doesn't play Cloud against grapplers even though Cloud wins those matchups hard.

He's bad against grapplers. (though he has improved greatly vs Ryu since his grind session with Takera in Japan)

Exactly how is this supposed to be relevant as a response to my comment? Just curious.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

That is countered by her getting demolished by cloud, Marth, Lucina, meta knight and Luma.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Tbh I can sort of agree on the matchups thing for puff and that she isn't the worst in the game. While she may not go even or win vs, puff doesn't do that bad vs her and probably does better vs sheik than a good amount of characters and she doesn't do awfully vseither. It won't make her suddenly rise out bottom tier but the fact she has two solid matchups against top tiers like those 2 will keep her better than zelda and dedede in the long run. And for the record I think zelda is most definitely the worst in the game at this point.

I feel as if you have to get close to her to deal your damage then she likely doesn't get stream rolled by you barring a few exceptions (I'd imagine the Ryu MU is hell) of course the sword characters are obnoxious. For a bottom tier that's pretty good especially compared to characters often lumped into bottom tier.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

The only thing going for her is crouch, so characters that need to get close, and can be crouched under, are generally okay. Everything else is definately a losing matchup. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, maybe wii fit are even.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, not like she is one of the characters with the highest air mobility, has decent aerials, safe pokes, strong edgeguard game and Rest setups.
Those, plus her crouch shenanigans, are more positives than I can count for Zelda and DDD (and 1111 Brawler/Swordfighter).


Don't get me wrong, she's bottom 5 (bottom 3 if we don't count the Miis), but saying she has nothing good going on for her is just not true.

 

[Yonder]

Problem with Jigglypuff is just that in top of all her nerfs, the game engine hurts her worse than anyone in the game. Being light just got even worse in this game with rage, but then having easier to break shields on top of that is brutal for Jiggs. As most know, once her shield breaks, she dies no matter what %. Sure it is almost a death sentence if Mewtwo is shield broken, but at least if he's pressured and happens to get shield broken at 0-20, he might live depending on the character and position he's in on the stage. It doesn't matter who breaks your shield and where you are as Jiggs, you're dead. Moves like Ryu's collar breaker, Marth/Lucina shield breaker don't make it easier either.

Jigglypuff can't even abuse rage herself. Mewtwo, being the second lightest, at least has a plethora of kill moves on him (fair, u throw, b throw, u smash) Jigglypuff has...rest, fair depending on position, bair position wise, dash attack near the edge.

The only character I can see worst than Jiggs is DDD. Zelda has a rep in Purple Guy kind of/another rep I'm forgetting. Big D dropped DDD basically/doesn't travel often and does Girthquake go to tournies? DDD is a big, slow turd but at least his survivability,range, and d throw are all very good. Sadly he can't even abuse rage well either since he can't kill well, but he can gather so,so much of it. Jiggs can abuse air mobility and maybe camp if she gets a % lead,DDD won't be running from anyone, he's possibly(?) Slower than Dorf overall.

Basically between who's worse, DDD or Jiggs, might as well be asking is drinking acid or being electrocuted better at this point. So hard to choose.