Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[origamiscienceguy]

Yeah, not like she is one of the characters with the highest air mobility, has decent aerials, safe pokes, strong edgeguard game and Rest setups.
Those, plus her crouch shenanigans, are more positives than I can count for Zelda and DDD (and 1111 Brawler/Swordfighter).


Don't get me wrong, she's bottom 5 (bottom 3 if we don't count the Miis), but saying she has nothing good going on for her is just not true.

High air mobility is not as useful as you make it out to be. Every character in the game can move on the ground faster than she can move in the air. What “safe pokes” are you referring to? The only one I can think of is jab. All her aerials are unsafe on shield. Aerials are decent, but their large landing lag and 6 frame jump squat make those not as useful as you might think. It is actually her dash attack that is a great move. That and her up-tilt.
If she had faster ground movement, her ground game would be decent.

 

[FeelMeUp]

According to this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#
Utilt, Fair, Nair, and Bair are all safe on shield drop when done properly.

 

[Myollnir]

Jigglypuff is one of those characters that requires a perfect spacing and a very rigorous playstyle, and play the "don't get hit" game. This is very hard to do, and it's not effective at low to high level.
The problem is, the character is undertuned, which means that at high level +, she can't keep up with other characters, her weaknesses will be abused.
So in my opinion, the character is basically useless.
DDD can at least be somewhat effective at lower levels of play (or on wifi lol), is super easy to play so you don't have as much pressure on you as you have with Puff.
Zelda has at least some stuff going on for her. She actually has some cool kill set ups, but her neutral, disadvantage and juggling game are lacking.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

According to this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#
Utilt, Fair, Nair, and Bair are all safe on shield drop when done properly.

The problem with that is that you either do a full hip rising aerial, while means you are now above the opponent, a short hop fast-fall which most characters can punish with a burst option, or a short-hop with no fastball, and a double jump. This puts you in the same situation as the first one, above the opponent.

 

[Deleted member]

Which character has the worst match ups? It could be ,, or .

 

[Bowserboy3]

Now, quick question for everyone.

Anyone know what control schemes the top Bayonetta players use? In particular, tap jump.

Salem? Zack? Mistake? Tweek? Lima? Anyone know whether these use tap jump or not?

Just trying to figure out which is optimal.

 

[Game7a1]

Jigglypuff can't even abuse rage herself.

Yes she can. I keep seeing this, but as a player who does tend to use rage to his advantage, she can use rage more than the pre-supposed notion that she really can't.

She's not the most combo oriented character, so rage can work towards her favor on keeping opponents further away from her or off-stage, where she thrives more than on-stage. Rest also becomes much more scary because as she gains rage, the opponent is closer to KO percent (this is much more noticeable when the character is susceptible to FF Up-Air or Up-Tilt to Rest, dying pretty early). So instead of losing a stock from the 30s to 50s, you're losing stock from the teens to 40s, depending on the amount of rage.

EDIT: Now, I'm not going to say she abuses it as often as some heavier characters. I don't think that's true, but I also don't think her being unable to abuse rage is true as well.

 

[|RK|]

Jiggs effectively gets Melee rest with a good amount of rage.

In either case, Jiggs Nair doesn't strike me as a terrifying edgeguarding tool, but I can see how it bothers some characters if you hang around ledge snap distance.

In either case, I've seen good Jiggs play, and it is relentlessly patient. To quote Hbox after his Summit win - any matchup is possible if you're shameless enough. Jiggs does have the ability to keep away pretty well against most characters in this game. So I feel like she can win a good number of MUs on attrition alone.

On the other hand, some of the best juggling characters are in this game, so a Bayo or Cloud will certainly be able to keep up with her no matter where she goes. Cloud especially.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Now, quick question for everyone.

Anyone know what control schemes the top Bayonetta players use? In particular, tap jump.

Salem? Zack? Mistake? Tweek? Lima? Anyone know whether these use tap jump or not?

Just trying to figure out which is optimal.

Lima uses tap jump.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Now, quick question for everyone.

Anyone know what control schemes the top Bayonetta players use? In particular, tap jump.

Salem? Zack? Mistake? Tweek? Lima? Anyone know whether these use tap jump or not?

Just trying to figure out which is optimal.

Bruh

Not.that.big.of.a.deal. You are not top 10 in the world. It will not affect you.

Just be comfortable lol

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Which character has the worst match ups? It could be ,, or .

vs is considered one of the worst MU's in the game I think. Dorf vs pre-patch Bayo was considered almost as unwinnable as Brawl vs


Well I guess it depends how badly these bottom/low tiers get shut down buy relevant top and high tiers

 

[|RK|]

vs is considered one of the worst MU's in the game I think. Dorf vs pre-patch Bayo was considered almost as unwinnable as Brawl vs


Well I guess it depends how badly these bottom/low tiers get shut down buy relevant top and high tiers

Ganon vs Bayo is possibly the worst MU in the game, yeah. Can be tragic to watch at any level.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

How bad is pacman vs mac for mac?

 

[Lord Dio]

Zelda's main reps iirc-Purple Guy, Ven, Fairess, Onpu, Pendulum. Not really well known, but they're there. reminder Onpu did well at an umebura sometime this year iirc.
Ganon may have the worst mu, but tbh he probably has the most reps among the bottom tiers, as well as the most notable reps among the bottom tiers

 

[Krysco]

Yes she can. I keep seeing this, but as a player who does tend to use rage to his advantage, she can use rage more than the pre-supposed notion that she really can't.

She's not the most combo oriented character, so rage can work towards her favor on keeping opponents further away from her or off-stage, where she thrives more than on-stage. Rest also becomes much more scary because as she gains rage, the opponent is closer to KO percent (this is much more noticeable when the character is susceptible to FF Up-Air or Up-Tilt to Rest, dying pretty early). So instead of losing a stock from the 30s to 50s, you're losing stock from the teens to 40s, depending on the amount of rage.

EDIT: Now, I'm not going to say she abuses it as often as some heavier characters. I don't think that's true, but I also don't think her being unable to abuse rage is true as well.

Minor nitpick but rage Rest can also work against Puff. Higher knockback means reaching the upperblast zone faster, meaning coming back faster and given how that's one of the biggest issues with Rest, especially if there's no star ko, it's a double edged sword. Killing that early is awesome for the move but do it some percents later and you're getting punished. As Puff. At high %.

 

[|RK|]

Bruh

Not.that.big.of.a.deal. You are not top 10 in the world. It will not affect you.

Just be comfortable lol

All the same, he's looking to improve and so he wants to emulate the top 10.

Minor nitpick but rage Rest can also work against Puff. Higher knockback means reaching the upperblast zone faster, meaning coming back faster and given how that's one of the biggest issues with Rest, especially if there's no star ko, it's a double edged sword. Killing that early is awesome for the move but do it some percents later and you're getting punished. As Puff. At high %.

Yup, and seeing as it's a two-stock game, the stock trade is useful less often than in Melee.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

All the same, he's looking to improve and so he wants to emulate the top 10.

It will do him no good to mull over something so trivial as tap jump vs no tap jump. Pretty much entirely preference, especially at the level he's at.

He can get better by improving his CQC game, neutral, cleaning up his punish game, and other more practical ways of improvement than seeing if flicking up is more optimal than pressing a button.

 

[|RK|]

It will do him no good to mull over something so trivial as tap jump vs no tap jump. Pretty much entirely preference, especially at the level he's at.

He can get better by improving his CQC game, neutral, cleaning up his punish game, and other more practical ways of improvement than seeing if flicking up is more optimal than pressing a button.

Tbh, it's easier to stack everything practical on simple stuff. Way harder to relearn control schemes later on. But if you start with whichever works best, you don't slow down your rate of improvement at all.

 

[Minordeth]

Now, quick question for everyone.

Anyone know what control schemes the top Bayonetta players use? In particular, tap jump.

Salem? Zack? Mistake? Tweek? Lima? Anyone know whether these use tap jump or not?

Just trying to figure out which is optimal.

Just for kicks: Salem and Zack both have tap jump off. Dunno about Tweek and Mistake, tho.

 

[freeziebeatz]

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

 

[RonNewcomb]

Bruh

Not.that.big.of.a.deal. You are not top 10 in the world. It will not affect you.

Just be comfortable lol

I strongly disagree. Different controller schemes make different things consistent. Bidou being the obvious example.

 

[Illusion.]

freeziebeatz Image isn’t working, at least not for me.

 

[freeziebeatz]

freeziebeatz Image isn’t working, at least not for me.

It's appearing for me now but I left an imgur link just in case.

 

[Minordeth]

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

Interesting. I don’t have too much to argue with, other than Mario being a bit too high and Rosa being a bit too low.

Actually, Rosa is in a weird spot for me in general. It’s character dependent, but in general, people don’t play the match up super well. Like, how many times have I almost yelled at my TV at top players not making that floating disjoint of death a priority?

Playing against Rosa is a war of attrition until Luma is gone. I think the kinds of players that gravitate to her do generally well in the meta because of the play style she is conducive to versus how that naturally interacts with the style that is popular in the meta right now.

She’s like an inversion of Bayo. She has a destructive ground game and can actually turtle and wall out rather well as opposed to Bayo’s potent air game and faux-camping. They both excel at juggling, and have to be approached cautiously until conditions are met that you can capitalize on (like getting rid of Luma or catching Bayo’s accrued lag).

But she isn’t infallible. The thing is that too many players either don’t prioritize well and/or don’t understand both how Luma works and which of their characters moves cause tumble and when.

Her relevancy isn’t going to drop like Mario’s will, but how well she does is skewed slightly, I think.

Although, relevancy is helped when your top rep is a complete monster player that plays both you and the MU exceptionally well.

 

[Rizen]

IMO is the worst. The rest of the bottom tiers probably are about even when the dust settles. They all have some things going for them. Jiggz' stuff was mentioned. has footsies, burst options in DA and killer edge guarding. actually has good combos if she can land a grab or Dtilt, and is good offstage. has disjoint, edge trapping and weight to get him through with a few good plays. has good zoning and frame traps but is undertuned in every way. has great mobility and a grappler/bait and punish game. IMO Dr.Mario, Falco, B Jr, etc are a tier above them.

Someone made a video on the history of Jiggz in competitive smash:

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

Poor , a tier under . I think people have a habit of saying their main beats Link+1 when it should be even.

 

[TDK]

Ganon has top 32 placements at majors, he can't be the worst character. I personally think it's Zelda.

Poor , a tier under . I think people have a habit of saying their main beats Link+1 when it should be even.

Funny you should say that...
https://imgur.com/a/T5zPY

Someone posted the new notable player matchup chart compilation, and I decided to take the most common placement those players put Link. And yeah, Link is in that group of characters where people go "I don't know this matchup but I'm better so it's probably +1". Hell, even Ven thinks Zelda beats Link.

We'll have to show them one day, huh?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bruh

Not.that.big.of.a.deal. You are not top 10 in the world. It will not affect you.

Just be comfortable lol

BIG dislike...

I'm sorry, but that's not very helpful in the slightest.

If we all adopted this kind of attitude, nobody would ever improve.

May not be that big of a deal in the long run, but it's something I want to know, so it's a big deal to me, so I'd appreciate the help, thanks.

---
Anywho, I tried tap jump Bayonetta at my weekly last night to accompany my Marth, and while likely not really linked, managed to win both singles and doubles lol.

From what I can make out, doing your 2nd Twist during a combo and saving your jump is a tiny bit easier. It's also super dumb/silly for doing Witch Twist OoS. I also quite like being able to double stick Uair and easily get that first part of a 2nd Uair out before you land; managed to start a couple of combos this way. May have been just lucky and not related to tap jump, but I definitely got more first hits of Witch Twist during combos too.

It makes snapping to the ledge a little different though, that's something you need to learn again. Also ledge planking takes re-learning.

And for the record, I think the UK's best Bayo, OwlBabies, uses tap jump. It's probably personal preference in the end, but I do feel that tap jump, while maybe stranger to use, is optimal. Haven't bothered using it for Marth because I don't see the benefits from him.

Double sticking is really interesting to me in general though. Characters that have good SH rising aerials/Uairs (Cloud/ZSS/Falcon perhaps, obviously Fox lol) may benefit from this.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Use L/R jump with tilt stick instead.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Use L/R jump with tilt stick instead.

Have been using this even before Bayo was released, it's still one of the best control setups in general IMO.

But after trying it, I do really think tap jump could really be beneficial for Bayo. Though having tried both of these, I think it just comes down to personal preference in the end, as both are good options.

I'm going to a monthly tournament this weekend where the UK's best Bayo frequently attends. I think I'll ask him while I'm there if he's there also.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

Aside a few placings (Yoshi, Lucas, Link in particular) this doesn't look too crazy and sorta resembles how you'd imagined the normal tier list look right now roughly. Which is pretty neat

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I strongly disagree. Different controller schemes make different things consistent. Bidou being the obvious example.

Depends on how different the controller schemes are. Tell me just how much of a difference is flicking up vs tap jump off is. Really.

Easier Utilts? Cool. No more wasted second jumps? Cool. "Harder" OOS options? Cool. Good thing all of that becomes a non-factor after some practice.

If we all adopted this kind of attitude, nobody would ever improve.

How on earth did you receive that information from what I said????

That straw man is crazy.

EDIT: like, focus on something that's worth more of your time, like this thread about movement options that 0.01% of the smash population effectively uses: https://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/

 

[Deleted member]

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

I do think and are too low. I do think should be in C tier in my opinion. I am very interested in why ,, and are all higher than . Does not has good results from MKLeo, Mr. E , Pugwest, and some other Marth Players? In theory I think should be over . But results I am not sure. I do think is in an accurate position. in my opinion should be the seventh worst character or below. I think you made a good placement for in my opinion.


Overall, nice tier list! Really like it a lot!

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I personally use Z for jumping, R for grab, X and Y for shield, L and B for special, and tilt-stick. (everything else is the same)

I use the L-special for an option select, but not anywhere else. Z-button helps me short-hop nair which is pretty important for my character. And jigglypuff's tilts are far mor important than her smash attacks.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Baby_Sneak - not going to start an argument with you here, but when somebody replies to an innocent question with...

"Not.that.big.of.a.deal."

and

"You are not top 10 in the world. It will not affect you."

it comes across as rather unhelpful, regardless of how you meant it.

And regardless of how insignificant I am in the world of Smash, if I want to ask about a control scheme, I'm well within my right to. If I think it will help me improve, then i'm entitled to try.

If somebody came to me asking for help learning perfect pivots and I said "Don't bother because you aren't top 10 in the world", that's not going to help them now is it?

If you have more you want to say to me on this matter, please just send me a private message rather than clog up the boards any further.

---

Anyway, what are the next big tournaments for this year? Was MKLeo Saga the last one for this year?

 

[Yonder]

So I wanted to see what would happen if you take a result only tier list and combine it with a theory only tier list. So I took that match up only based tier list not made to long ago and combined it with @Das Koopa tournament placing project's phase 5 results. It may be a bit outdated, but I thought the results were pretty interesting to look at.

So some things to note.
- Obviously, D.Pit's lack of results drops him hard compared to pit.
- Yoshi is surprisingly high in both theory and international results, making him surprisingly high compared to others.
- Lucina has a discrepancy in both results and matchups compared to Marth.
- Some characters are the same place number. ()()()()()()

Edit: Don't know why the image isn't loading. Here is a link. https://i.imgur.com/0xytRxK.png

No one questions Ranai - I mean Villager's placement? Must be a whole ton of theory holding him up, because he's been quiet since like, 2015.

I haven't looked at Das' results thread though so maybe like Frieezie said, outdated?

 

[Lord Dio]

found something yesterday that I mean to post, but couldn't get access to a computer to do so
new Olimar tech, that's actually kinda cool
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7b61su/new_olimaralph_advanced_tech_stickmin_details/

 

[Lavani]

Hell, even Ven thinks Zelda beats Link.

In fairness, he also thinks Zelda goes even with Fox, Mario, Rosalina, Corrin, Meta Knight, Ness, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Villager, ROB, Mega Man, and many others

so it's not the most surprising thing on his chart by any means

 

[PJB]

No one questions Ranai - I mean Villager's placement? Must be a whole ton of theory holding him up, because he's been quiet since like, 2015.

Great point, and I do question it lol I think we are approaching a point in the meta where if a character does not have a respectable matchup against at least one of cloud or bayonetta, they are going to be in for a rough time, and villager is known to HATE dlc

 

[Pyrover]

In fairness, he also thinks Zelda goes even with Fox, Mario, Rosalina, Corrin, Meta Knight, Ness, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Villager, ROB, Mega Man, and many others

so it's not the most surprising thing on his chart by any means

Zelda's flaws tend to be dramatically over exaggerated. She's not great by any means but she honestly shouldn't be a contender for bottom five. Furthermore, of those matchups, Mario, Ness, Luigi, Falcon, Villager, and ROB probably are even. Megaman could be too but I'm not familiar with him. These are all character that are forced to actually allow her gameplan.

 

[|RK|]

Zelda's flaws tend to be dramatically over exaggerated. She's not great by any means but she honestly shouldn't be a contender for bottom five. Furthermore, of those matchups, Mario, Ness, Luigi, Falcon, Villager, and ROB probably are even. Megaman could be too but I'm not familiar with him. These are all character that are forced to actually allow her gameplan.

Falcon? Ness? Luigi? How is Zelda even with any of those characters?

Zelda is a defensive character without the tools or frame data to defend herself. I don't see how she does anything against Luigi, let alone Falcon.